 Welcome to ToffyTV, it's my pleasure to say I'm joined in the studio by football historian Peter Kenny Jones He had to tell us all about his new book Crossing the Park Which tells into, well, players who've played for Everton go to Liverpool Players who've played for Liverpool go to Everton Something that maybe modern fans won't be so familiar with But obviously with Rafa Benitez being Everton's manager not so long ago We'll understand maybe the baggage that comes with it So what led you into writing this book? Yeah, firstly, thanks for having me on No worries Yeah, it was just obviously interesting in both teams And I think that reason, because it happened so often years ago But it's not something that happened recently Before, when I started writing it was when Conor Coady, Andy Lonergan, Rafa Benitez All made their switches and all them of course were totally different and viewed very differently But before then it had been such a long time Last one was Abel Xavier and obviously there was Sander Vesterfeld in the middle There was obviously an emergency loan I just thought by looking into them each one was so different already I just thought it'd be interesting to explore that and just see When Liverpool never had my friends, why they're not friends anymore And basically it's taken me from the first ever game with Liverpool's history Three former Everton players are playing up to today with Conor Coady So it's the history of both clubs through these 34 men Yeah, it's a weird one isn't it, because you mentioned Liverpool obviously Born out of Everton or paying the rent, which still annoys me Why didn't we just pay the rent? But obviously you've got, obviously those connect It was almost like I suppose Liverpool coming out of Everton It was already a sort of a fractious relationship wasn't it from the very start But it would seem that when you look at teams in London like Chelsea and Arsenal There were so many players, even recently players playing for both of them You've had the occasional Manchester City player, Man United and the other way But the link with Everton and Liverpool really has dried up recently We know in the last 30 years the relationship between the two fans And the two set of fans and the clubs have sourged Do you think that has played a big part in players not moving from, directly from one to the other? Yeah, well yes, but also you think in that time when obviously relations maybe started to sour The two teams were the best two in the country So you'd think there'd be less likely for them to be swapping players Obviously it's changed all over the years and it's something I try to look into But I think by looking at each transfer it shows how it's changed us But there's no real rhyme or reason to the reception that each player gets Because no one really cared, usually back up full back for the Liverpool And Everton needs the money, didn't really make much difference But a few months earlier, Nick Barnby and people are betting effigy So it doesn't really make sense why But obviously when you look into it you just want to see a better player And he comes out and makes that statement But again with the London clubs, they go and they've got such better rivalries they say But I said to one of my mates who's an Arsenal fan, I was like, what do you do with swap players? And all they want to do is whoever's got the most money And they go, that willy and now in Fulham, there's no way he's a Fulham lad from the kid He's played for them all as well So I think it's just interesting to look at it and then why that rivalry has changed Because you said rightly there that they were both born out of an argument But that was John Holden and people obviously have different opinions of him But he was the main focus on the early rivalry But then the relationship got a lot better And then they splinted off again and obviously it's something I try and touch on And it's not something you can really cover in like a two seconds act But you know the events of High School, Hillsborough The fact that Liverpool are beating Everett in Cup finals The Bands from Europe, all those things definitely play a part in it But then as I've just said, I wrote all this And then Conor Cody, Andy Lonergan and Rafa Benitez happen So it doesn't really make any sense but I try and be best to explain it Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean the Rafa Benitez one will definitely It's inflamed I suppose that it all up again I mean the Conor Cody one for me, it never comes into it because he was such a young lad And he went away and obviously we got him from Wolves And he's put so much into trying to be an Everton player And play his part and seeing his kids go to Finch Farm and trying all that kind of thing But I think the one with the Benitez which is quite interesting is the fact that When Benitez took over as manager it was people like, yeah, okay But then the stick to beat him was straight away with his Liverpool fans Liverpool fans loved that because they played the agent Rafa and all this So they played up to that as well It happened in the 90s to be honest with Peter Johnson on the football club You had Agent Johnson and all that It's always a stick to beat the fans with from the opposition And that always played its part for me and always, always, always always something They add over this but going back to the 90s certainly meant my first experience of this I don't know what yours was but for me it was Peter Bates coming over And Peter Bates was such a success for Four Everton And it was actually for me it was almost like we had one over Liverpool on this Because he was such a good player, obviously he scored an amazing I had that being in 1992 for us to win the game, linking up with Gary Ablet And it was such, you know, it was just a happy thing But since then, you know, we've had Gary Ablet of course But since then there hasn't been too many success stories I don't think really either way Yeah, well I think obviously something I mentioned to you before The interest of Peter Bates, as you say, Liverpool great and an Everton great And to have that reputation still amongst both clubs Obviously what he does after this career is different But as a player he's certainly held in high regard by both And that's something I do after the World War Every player I went to start the season, I went to both grounds And asked 50 fans from each club, out of 10 how much of a club legend does a player Out of 10 how much of a traitor does he And they both combined legends which are stupid The long-winded way of saying that he's the most respected man by Liverpool and Everton fans Obviously that combines talent with the fact that he was good for both teams and stable So again, you'd think with him that Liverpool fans should hate him because he was really good And he went to Everton and was really good So you know, there's that famous chant that Liverpool fans are saying I want a waste of talent after he's scored And obviously that's the play-form each other That's how I think the rivalry should be But with him, I think he understood that it was a great issue There's decisions to get rid of him So rather than pinning all your hatred on him Like maybe Everton fans are with Nick Barnaby It was all his fault because he was so public about wanting to go They should pin the hatred maybe or the distaste of the move on Graham Schooners And you take all the blame off Peter Beasley So again, that chose each one's difference And Gary Abbott's the same, he was part of a very successful putty And he was too good to not be playing He went to an Everton team and got the game time he deserved And he's the only player to ever win the FA Cup with both So that chose, again, the talent he had If you give your all for both teams I think your past deleteances can always be forgotten Which, again, can be seen by people like Kevin Sheedy And stuff like that You're always happy to welcome them as one of your own If they can fight for you Yeah, and there is that Successful always Help won it Gary Abbott, I remember Gary Abbott when he signed for Everton And Everton fans felt like they were getting It was different from Beasley because they did feel like They were getting proper reject And it took them a little bit of time to settle But again, he's another one who He put everything into being an Everton He was very professional When the FA Cup with us went on to Be coaching the youth level as well I think he left to actually go back to Liverpool, didn't he Which was a bit, but they offered them A better pathway Which is what Everton seems to struggle at At youth level, no matter what they do But again, because I think that professional nature He showed Really helped them succeed at Everton And obviously, at that point I mean, Liverpool weren't exactly great when Abbott left either, but Beasley certainly was And I think the one thing with Beasley Is there's nothing what people quite understand is I suppose when Beasley signed for Everton It would almost be like if we signed for Menial this summer I don't, you know, he was a I know he's leaving Liverpool anyway, but The level he was at at Liverpool No one could quite unbelieve him for us to Get a player that good It was incredible He was too good for Everton He was too good for the other players we had But, you know, he was brilliant And it was a strange time It was a strange time, obviously the beginning of the Premier League And to see those both play And there was no animosity at all So it was very much different from You know, the area you've just mentioned When obviously Nick Barby Obviously was the last high profile one And he obviously leaving Everton I mean, you know, wow How have you covered that in the book Well, carefully It's the rain thing, but yeah, I think With him, you know, as you say It's one thing leaving, I have a club and they say If you go and fight for the other, it's fine But I think the way he did it, obviously He basically was already at Liverpool here Before he'd arrived because he so publicly said I want to go and he was already massively hated And I think even if he did not go on to Liverpool And went on to somewhere else, he'd still Have very similar reputations He does today, but then going and scoring And the way he's celebrated To understand why Everton fans eat him I think that's how I start the chapter Here he is, enemy number one And I think that's probably what he is And I think he mentions from interviews that I went through And he got like a police escort Of Queen's Drive and they take it to Derby And they had to like put his family somewhere secret To that no one to where he was And that's just how mad it's changed And you go from, again, like we mentioned before Garry Ablity, he's a scouser And you think it'd be even harder for him But it's not the same type of thing The transfer is different and that's why I thought I could easily have just started With World War Two and onwards And just said these are all these players But every single story, I think And hopefully if you really agree I think every single one is as interesting As the last one and they'll all tell you Where the relationship is at that exact time Yeah, because there's loads, I mean There's loads of different ways that happen You know, you've got a night on Next Friday night at Hotel Amphill Don't put that that put you off Kevin Sheedy's going to be there, Steve McMahon's Going to be there, Steve McMahon's I don't really need an interest on him Because obviously it was that event when he was a youngster Went to Villa and then came back to Liverpool Massively successful player At Liverpool, but he was one where He'd almost felt like, you know Listening to what my dad said and stuff That whole move was Created to go to Villa To come back to Liverpool because there was no way He would have been able to leave Everton at the time to go to Liverpool Again, because that's the natural thing Is there any Inclins of that in his story Or has he kept it quite close to the chest? Well, I think maybe not so much Of that, but obviously there's the famous story Where after the derby Liverpool haven't played his first one As a Liverpool player and his car gets Damaged And he has a laugh But the fact is still in Aston Villa So it never really affected him much So, yeah, that again The change in face of that rivalry, doesn't it? And you know, he was He obviously saw Liverpool as a way to Stay in his city, but also Play for the better team, that's what he thought At that time, so it's Yeah, it's an interesting one, obviously you go Into the Puch launch there and I think that's Hopefully that'll be something Not that they've spoken about a lot Because there are a lot of former players after dinner Speaking certainly do a lot, but I don't think there's many times Kevin Trudy's Been asked to share his Anfield stories With someone, so hopefully that should be A little bit interesting, but yeah, I think For all those players again, it just shows How much each transfer is different And I'm trying to keep saying it But it doesn't make much sense When you look at the Garniabla one, that's so similar As to why the face of it was so different As to why you do it, and it probably Was better for him to go via Villa Than it was directly, but it still didn't End up great for him to do Could you see Could you see any of these transfers Happening again, because You know what, I just think about it now certainly After the bar, the Avalza via one was a weird one I think that was the last one wasn't it And it was Coming to the end of his contract Liverpool are obviously offering him decent money And it was just, I think it was too good To tear down forever and at the time He was a decent squad player for us And I don't know why Liverpool got him, I really don't It was just crazy, but can you Visage seeing It going either way again, I just can't See it happening It's not something you can, like I can't Really see it happening, I think What makes less sense is maybe there's less Courses in both clubs now, and you know Football and the Premier League come so international It should happen more now than it did In the 1890s and back then When the teams were full of Courses And local people, but I don't know Whether Bill Kimmeright's got a role In the sense that he's the only person I can think of in the hierarchy of either club Ties to this type of relationship I know obviously his reputation is great I won't go into him I wish you'd cropped a pie Yeah, I don't think he'd be happy I think he'd be angrily welcome to both sides But I think maybe he has Some type of role in the fact that He is a boy or a different fan But I can't really think of other reasons You'd think, and this is not trying to say So the gulf between the sides is set before You'd think when they were first and second That they wouldn't be willing to do And there's more of a gap between them You'd think that, like I've said a few times Alex Oxley, Chamberlain I think would be a good player To go to the other side Because you see like he's obviously got talent He's not playing a lot Maybe he makes sense to go And not taking your kids out of school And stuff like that, it all makes sense I just look at, you know You're right, there are See I could have seen Anthony Gordon I really could have But I don't think Evan would ever Maybe having someone like Bill Kenmore At the club Wouldn't allow that to happen But the Liverpool points, there are loads of plays There's younger plays But I just wonder whether Younger Liverpool plays Will see how toxic it can be And how, you know Maybe you've been around Barbies Or how it is in the city I mean this stuff Only tends to happen around Barbies Like Glasgow, do you know what I mean It's not like that But I wonder whether they understand That rivalry and how bad it can be And because of social media and all the rest of it I just don't want to be Because I'm going to be tarnished with that Because that wasn't there 30 years ago And you know when When Ablicum you might have had a few People ringing up at a local radio station Or you might have had people writing into the echo It evaporated As soon as they kicked the ball Because it did I don't remember there being any issues Over Grumlands, maybe over Ablicum But nothing more And that all goes away once they're playing football But I just think now I just wonder with all that baggage Whether that stops people from Making the move Social media is massive Imagine it's two steps back Before you've played for them You're going to get hate off one team Or the other team's going to hate you Because you've come from the other side Or worse case scenario and what is most likely to happen Is both teams will start off not liking you I think you know Rafa Benitez Is the perfect example, I think Everett fans As much as they didn't probably want him to come Once he was there I think the majority of Everett fans were like But he's our manager, you've got to get behind him He definitely got a chance And he was doing all the hate at the very start Things went badly and maybe they were quicker to turn Because of what it happened as you say So he was two steps back You had to fight hard to get level But then as soon as you make a mistake You're already going to be thought badly of And it's the same thing for all of them Whether it's a younger player again A Tyler Morton, I spoke about the other day He's on loan, maybe He thinks he can't get first team football Everett coming in I think he's from the world You think for him, well that would make sense To go and play for Everett, but then How would that be received I think Connor Coles Another one, I know you said He's only on loan at Everett and the way he's done it But still there was Liverpool fans who were annoyed with him For what he did He has probably cut ties with Liverpool for life By really committing I think in the book I mentioned He said the best moments in his career Is the goal that he had disallowed in the derby Because it was disallowed Well maybe so I think that is a ploy Because he knows how large you have to convince the new fans I don't think there's any Everett fan who questions Connor Coles, he's committing to Everett But he will definitely have had a mental note Of himself or his agent You've got to really show Everett fans that he committed He obviously is It's hard to just say I'm not trying to say for the 1500s time But it depends how you do it Who it is and in what context I think it's a weird one for Connor Coles Because I don't think it'll ever turn I'm playing for Everett I know he's scored the goal But I can't imagine that tonight It will ever tarnish him Because if he finishes his career He's just been professional during his career He's just done his job So I can't imagine that will ever tarnish him Because there are others like him They're like the Don Utchinson Don't know where Liverpool He probably left before He'd really kicked on And then he came to Everett And he was a great success for Everett I think he You know He probably loves both clubs And probably more so Because neither of them were his childhood clubs So therefore he can have an affiliation with both And it's not really an issue And we love Don Liverpool fans probably like Don And there's not an issue It just comes down to the scenario doesn't it And I think I think it would actually be harder If you were a young player That's when I do think it becomes hard Growing up in the city Especially if you've been A red or a blue and having to make that decision That's when it becomes complicated Because you have got family then You have got the ties For all these players they don't have those ties It's another chapter I've got a chapter crudely called The Carragans That's a whole other thing He was a boy of blue when it goes to play for Liverpool Although it's probably something that was I end out before he was firmly on the pitch Something late in life that is going to be used against you There's that famous picture of the Gerrard And the Everton kid that gets used a lot And there's all context and reasons for everything But you know I think Going into I think it's Deli Alley and Ashley Williams, both boy of Liverpool fans And then Adam Alarm as a boy of Everton fans It's still without even playing for them You've still got a barrier to beat down To win over people But obviously again it's just how you do it And the way you do it And the lack of maybe Scousers doing it As well maybe shows that it's harder For local lads and young lads to do it And it's just not something that can See happening too soon No, the Carragans ones An interesting one though isn't it Because he's still got You can definitely tell he's still got A little bit of love for Everton But of course It's probably every time It looks like it's going to surface He probably thinks of all that abuse he got And obviously He's had so many amazing Times being a Liverpool player That he's going to carry that forward Whether he's a massive Liverpool fan Or he's not, he's had amazing Times, so all the things He does now After this game will always be related to those things So he'll always be dragged into them So he can still have that little Little love for Everton, because of course he did But it's to that That every fan couldn't imagine That you liked both teams and you could never Picture that Being a good person and thinking You liked a life like both of these You just could never picture it But Conor Cody and Jamie Carter They'll have a preferred side They'll definitely also have a soft spot With both Liverpool and Everton Which I think maybe isn't something that many would expect To ever exist in your life But that's really professional footballer But it's not that hard at the moment Because ultimately You're playing for Tophys and one of them is struggling So it's not that hard It would only be hard if, again Like you're saying now where it becomes like the 80s Where you're the one and two That's when it really comes out I don't think it's really that hard at the moment So, sadly For us anyway, sadly for us Especially when you're needing them To be teams for your own survival Which is hard, but as we mentioned before You've got the book launch Next Friday, Hotel Anfield Kevin Sheedy, who obviously Came from Liverpool to Everton I mentioned it as well Raising money for fan support and food Obviously There's live music on Getting hosted, there's Q&A Get stuff signed And then there's food with your ticket All the proceeds going towards fan support I think a few of them are coming as well The link for that will be in the comments To this video So there you go, when is the book out? Monday, 24th Yeah, available everywhere My website is best for me But obviously it's Amazon, WHB, Warstone And then the book launch 28th Tickets through Skiddle and all that But yeah, if you're either one That tickles your fancy There you go, great read Great stories Because it does It's really interesting It's a really interesting one We could do with a few full players I'll just leave that there We could do with a few people Thanks for joining us Get yourself down to the book launch And get yourself a copy of this Make sure you give this video a like Leave a comment, tell us who your favourite player is That has played for the other side Tell us who it is Let us know your thoughts on that Thanks for watching, see you later