 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. So he got stabbed, top shoulder, pierced his lung, in the side as well, pierced his other lung, got hit at the head with a scaffolding bar, kicked and punched. So my dad's 6'3", so he's quite a big guy, so as a child I always looked up to him, he's quite a scary guy, you know, being so tall and so big and stuff, and yeah, he was in absolute bits, couldn't really speak. All you could say to him was going to speak to your mum upstairs, and I went upstairs and spoke to my mum and my mum told me. Even the two that were convicted are still saying no involvement, it wasn't us, you guys have set us up, all those connotations, so there is no exception of guilt from them to, which I find really hard to accept, but they are who they are. Boomer on, and today's the guest, we've got Stuart Lawrence, how are you Stuart, good boy. Nice to meet you James. Yeah, really nice to meet you. Thanks for giving us your time. No worries, pleasure. Absolutely pleasure. Yeah, it's your brother Stephen Lawrence, his mother was nearly 30 years ago. Probably one of the most spoke about mothers in British history, like a tragic event, unprovoked racial mother, which is still spoke about to this day, and obviously this is why you're here. She had more light on it and everything that you, your mum, everybody's battled through over the years trying to get justice, but first and foremost brother, how are you? I'm good, I'm good, yeah, just sort of getting back up to speed with work, just appreciating me working and being out there really, and just trying to do my little thing. So yeah, never complain, just try to get my head down and just get on with it. Yeah, that's the best way, do you know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. But before we get anything, obviously we'll get about your own background, where you grew up and how it all began. Yeah, so I lived in Woolwich, South East London from, as far back as I can remember, I think it was about five, we moved from like a little council flat into a house, the house that my dad actually worked on in the house in the state called Woolwich Common Estate, and then we lived there until we was 16, 17, and yeah, just had a great childhood, local community, went to the local school, just knew everyone, enjoyed the time, we had a big commons, like a big green area where we just go ride our bikes, just play football, enjoy ourselves, the fun phase to come, circuses to come, just enjoyed life really, yeah. So a pretty decent life. Yeah, definitely. Mum and Dad come from Jamaica. Mum and Dad come from Jamaica, so my dad came over when he was first and was about 18, did two years as a holstra, so and then he went back for three and then came back again. And I always ask him, why did you come back? Because like, if you've ever been to Jamaica, like the weather, the food, the people, the culture, it's just amazing. And he said he wanted to try and give us a better opportunity than he had, a better first start, which makes sense in my head, like it didn't make sense. And yeah, my mum came from Clarendon. She came over when she was a bit later and came to school over here. And they met over here and got married and had us three kids. And yeah, life was good. How was your school? Good. So I went to a school called Eglinton Primary School, which was like two or three minutes where we lived from where we live. So we walked to school every day. My mum worked at a local school as well. Yeah, school was great. Like there was never no problems or issues at school. And like the demographic mix wasn't wasn't great, but it was never an issue. So like looking back now in primary school, there was me as a black child. There was an Indian child and there was another black girl there. But again, that race was never something we spoke about or divided of each other amongst ourselves about. And then I went to secondary school. So I went to the same secondary school as Steven did. For the first year and that was a predominantly black school in Blackheath called Blackheath Bluecoats. I just didn't get on. I was a bit of a rebel and lots of teachers telling me, oh, you're like, why are you not like Steven? Why you don't behave as like, why are you not as clever as Steven is? So that messed with my head for a while and I rebelled a bit and was a bit naughty and yeah, I had to move school. I went from a mixed school to an all boys school in Eaglesfield in Woolwich against like a walk to school every day. And I settled in on what better than the idea of just going to school to learn and play football. It was great for me. I really enjoyed that environment and I enjoyed going to school as well. But again, school wasn't a very diverse mixed school that I went to. So there was me, another black child. There was a dual heritage kid in my class. There was a Chinese kid in my class. But across the whole school, it wasn't a very mixed school. But again, we was never divided up because of colour, no one ever made me feel because I was black. I couldn't do certain things or I had to be marginalized anyway. Never a thing is more about could you play football? What kind of clothes and trains did you have on? Like how that sort of coolness was the measure of people back then? Yeah, so life was good. Life was good back as a child. It really was. What stage difference between yourself and Steven? Two and a half years. So still very close. Yeah, yeah. So we shared a room from age of five together. My sister came along and we lived in a three bedroom house. So me and Steven shared. My sister had a room by myself and my mum and dad had a room together. So yeah, we shared a room from six, age of five. So really close. Like anyone that's had a sibling and goes to sleep and wakes up and that's the first person you sleep and the last person you go. It's like that bond is quite unbreakable. Yeah. So what did you do? Were you still at school when the incident of Steven happened? So I was at Eaglesfield. Yeah, so I was just about to do my GCSEs when Steven passed away. And Steven was doing his A-levels and that was a mixture between blacky, blue coats and a few other little colleges around Woolwich. Yes, it was a week after my birthday, my 16th birthday. Steven was killed. Yeah, that must all affect your birthdays then to this day, brother. Yeah, it's a weird one because it's I have my birthday and then I have a week where I know it's come up to Steve's memorial and then we have another week and it's Georgina's birthday, my sister. So it's smack bang in the middle of both of our birthdays. So, yeah, birthdays, birthdays and Christmas or any special family celebrations. Then has his own sort of like tint and jade on it and going forward from then on. Yeah, so obviously you're still at school at the time. And then obviously with Steven's murder, 1993. Yeah. Was it 22nd April? Yeah. And then how old was Steven, 19? 18. 18. So only 18 years old, like out of his cousin or his friend. That he's with. Yeah. Yeah, his friend, yeah. Is that Dwayne Brooks? Yeah. Plainly computer going home and then an unprovoked attack, racial abuse. And then was it two stab wounds? So it was about three or four. So he had, he got stabbed top shoulder, pierced his lung in the side as well, pierced his other lung, got hit overhead with a scaffolding bar and kicked and punched as well. And yeah, the main reason why. So the couple of reasons why he actually passed away was because after he was stabbed and hit overhead, he got up and his friend had came back for him and then told him to run. So he then ran another hundred metres up the road. So obviously that the running sped everything up. And then he collapsed and it was only when he collapsed, his friend realized that he had been stabbed. And then where they he collapsed, there was a church across the road, which had just finished in midnight, not midnight mass, just finished in the evening mass. So a couple came out from the church, saw him on the floor and came and gave him a bit of aid and a bit of respite. And trust the kind of making feels comfortable while the ambulance was supposed to be coming. How long did it take for the ambulance to come? Well, where he got stabbed, the hospital was only less than 10 minutes away. But I think the police turned up first because when Dwayne phoned up, he was quite erratic and we later found out with any sort of incidents like that. If the person is not quite as calm and the police was to turn up first and then the emergency services will come after the police. So he must have been there for about 10 minutes before the police and the ambulance turned up. And when the police showed up, they never done any CPR. Did I read that correctly? They never tried to stop him, he believed in. No, no. Wow. He has to false them now. You know, I didn't find this out until 2011 when we was at the Old Bailey and the officers first on scene were being interviewed and questioned. And that was when the question was asked of them why they didn't take the first aid kit at the back and perform any CPR. And they said that they were more concerned about how distressed Dwayne was and trying to find out what was going on, what had happened during the incident. And yeah, that again is another another sort of layer of people's consciousness, I believe, about if you see someone, if you're a first aid, or I know as if myself as a first aid, if I see somebody need a first aid, it's my duty to go and try and do the best I can until the emergency services turn up. And then when the emergency services turn up, then allow them to carry on. So those sort of things are really hard to comprehend and understand the layers of people's mindset back then. Because I think there was an investigation that didn't even know CPR, they weren't even trained. Like, well, but even if it's a gas, the blood coming out, the first thing you do is try and cover it to try and stop the blood, which can probably prolong your life for about an extra five, 10 minutes and off time to then. If you don't know CPR, the most basic idea in your mind is to try and stop the bleeding. Try to stop the wound from leaking any more blood or to slow it down as possible to then to allow the emergency services to come in and do their job. So from that, it's just a kind of, it's just question marks everywhere from yourself when your family just straight away. No, not from the beginning part, not the beginning part, because again, we thought at the first sort of like five or six weeks that the process was just the process. We had never been involved with the police. We never had involved the police beforehand. So what they presented to us, we just assumed that's what was going on. That's what would happen. And it was as we went on and on and on and things didn't seem to be moving forward and there would seem to be no progress. Then we started questioning a lot of things. So the lawyer in rank on was right into the police asking for updates and to find out what's going on and he would get nothing back, just hear nothing back. And these were days like for faxes and things. So these were fax, fax a request through head, nothing back, with telephone, nothing back, would write a letter, nothing back. And that's when he then came to us as a family and said, look, there's something going on because I'm requesting bits of information. I'm trying to find out what's happening, the timeline of things and no one's letting me know. When did you just get the phone call about Steven? So it wasn't a phone call. So we was at home waiting for him to come and it was one of our neighbors. So where I lived in the housing estate, there were houses that were at the back of our house and there were houses along the side. So it was one of our neighbors that lived behind the back where he lives called Joey Shepard that came with his dad and knocked on our door and said that he thought Steven had been involved in a fight and then my parents got in the car and went down to the roundabout to find out what happened. And how's that then? Like were you there? Yeah, yeah. So I, because I thought Steven had lost his key and the first knock on the door was him which was about 20 past 10. So I went running downstairs, opened the door and I was like, there's like, oh, is your mom and dad home? I was like, yeah. And they went, okay. So I went up and got my mom and dad and I sat on the stairs and heard the conversation and I'm saying, oh, we think Joey's has been at the bus stop, seen Steven involved in some sort of fight. We don't know what happened because Joey got on the bus. We think you should go and find out what happened sort of thing. So yeah, they jumped to the car. I had to stay at home because I had my younger sister and now they went. How was that though when your mom and dad came back? Yeah. So my dad's six three. So he's quite a big guy. So as a child, I always looked up to him. He's quite a scary guy, you know, being so tall and so big and stuff. And yeah, he was in absolute bits. Couldn't really speak. All you could say to him was going to speak to your mom upstairs. And I went upstairs and spoke to my mom and my mom told me. And yeah, it's just crazy, like I didn't believe it. Really angry, really confused. Just a bit of a loss really. But I came around to the realization that if I went to school, that someone would know what had happened and know the people that did it. So I went to bed. I got up the next day and I went to school. You went to school the next day? Yeah. To try and see if you could get out for me. Yeah, because I said, I saw where it happened, another 100 meters was where Mark Winters lived. So from the age of about 14, every Friday, Saturday night, I used to go to Mark Winters house. We used to have a little teeny bop-a-rave and stuff. So I walked up and down that road hundreds of times. There was a cinema, like 20 meters away from the bus stop. We went to that cinema hundreds of times as a kid. So I knew the area. I knew people in and around the area. So I knew someone would know. So yeah, I went to school and we got the names. We got the names quite early on during that day. And I went home and told my parents, thinking that would speed the process up and allow the police to do the job that they were supposed to do and for us to have some sort of closure and move on from it. So the five names, I've got the five names, was it Luke Knight, a court, was it a court brothers? Yep. Gary Dobson and David Morris. Yep. And that's the five names thrown into the mix straight away. But then it took nearly 20 years to get a conviction of too. Like that process, like, because your mum seems like such a strong woman, if probably not your mum, then it would have probably been swept under the carpet a way long ago where it would have probably been forgotten about. Like your mum's just kept banging the drum and kept banging down doors to get answers and that for me is a strong woman. I've watched so many interviews about your mum and it's unbelievable what she's actually done. We're getting Nelson Mandela involved and that's unbelievable for a local case to then go taking it international. It was a whole different ball game, like the more you shed light on things, the more people then take note and that's the important thing. But when the five names get thrown into the mix straight away, like I even seen a video of these guys a year later when they're not in a room and they were pretending to kill somebody and do the violent acts, had a knife and shit like that. The first year of that, how hard was that for you and your family? It was surreal. Because like I said, so there's a program called The Bill. I don't know if you remember The Bill. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's the program I got brought up on. You know, a crime happens, the police get involved, they do their job, the person goes to prison. Like that was a process in my mind. So we got the names and gave the names and then the names came from another source as well. So someone that we knew also was told the names and he reported it to the police. And then we later found on that someone went into the police station, gave the names in, someone went on the phone, gave the same names as well. So when all these things were happening, we were just like, well, why is it not? Why is not nothing going on? And then sort of like the rumors and that the narrative started to change with that Steve was a drug dealer. He was a gang member, you know, who's up to no good. So therefore these sort of things happen to these cyber people. And it didn't matter how much we as a family were saying, no, this is not true. No one was believing us. It wasn't until we met Nelson Mandela that came through a few of the political groups. So there was one called the Anti-Nazi League that helped us organize that meeting. And that's what I believe really sparked the momentum change. When we sat down with Nelson for two hours explaining what happened. When he came out after us and said to the press that he knew and understood that black lives never amounted much in South Africa, but he didn't think that the same would be with Great Britain. And that changed the narrative of the media. So the weeks afterwards it was Steve was an A level student studying to be an architect that was killed in Southeast London. I think a week after that the boys were arrested for the first time and questioned. And for us as a family, it was like, finally, like we're getting some momentum now. We're moving things forward and hopefully we'll get a positive outcome. And it then didn't go like that. It just didn't work out like that. And then we had the investigation. So the first case collapsed through the evidence. They were saying that because Duane was compromised when he gave his ID parade, that the evidence, there was no sufficient evidence. They never had no clothing, no DNA, no weapon, nothing. It was all based on his testimony. So when that fell through, we was just like, right, this is never gonna work, like what are we gonna do next? And the legal team thought that they could go for a private prosecution. So to take on the case themselves and try and prove what had happened, that was unsuccessful as well. And then once we got through that hoop, we was just like, right, it's over because you can't try someone twice for the same crime. So it was just like, right, what are we gonna do now? And we pretty much thought that that was it. It was over. We then moved into the case of trying to find out why the police never did the job properly and that came through the first report and the inquiry then. And then it wasn't too after the first report that we then had the double jeopardy law change that gave us a bit more hope of things are gonna change. And then that's when Clive came into the picture. Yeah, so once they get acquitted for the, was it a second time? No, for the first time. So first, so they couldn't get. You know, they couldn't get tried again. Yeah, was it because they were acquitted now? Yeah, so they obviously must have thought, right, it's over. But again, we knew it's done the private investigation. It was one of the undercover police officers not say there was a smear campaign against you and your family. Yeah, but the smear campaign started from day one, I believe. We had police liaison officers in our house who were reporting back to the police about who was in our house, what they were doing, what they were saying. Which I thought was a bit weird. You're there to support us as a family. You're not there to report back to the police. And we was being very open to the police from day one as well. There wasn't a case that we're saying, no, we don't want the police involved. You can't come here. My parents were like, come in. Like, what can we do to help? How can we help? How can we ensure that things run as smoothly as possible? So one of the things that were key as well was that there was no violence. You know, all Steven's friends and peer group very angry at the time because this was a third murder in Southeast London as well. A third of a person of color being killed. So there was lots of anger going on. And my parents were very adamant that there should be no acts of violence. Like, that's not gonna help no one. That's not gonna push things forward. Let the police do their job. If anyone knows anything, let's help and support the police. So we were very supportive of the system in the beginning parts. And it wasn't only until we realized that that support and that help wasn't being rescindicated and wasn't being appreciated that we then started to feel like we had to do something a bit different. Yeah, how hard does that, though, feel like your mum, your dad, when you see through those court cases? Because you never even got legal aid, did you? You had to raise your own money to fight for your own son's convictions. Yeah. But again, they were doing it because they had no other choice. It wasn't the case of my mum and dad having this great political drive of understanding the system and going, do you know what? We're used to fighting against this. Therefore, we're just gonna do what we usually do. This is all new to my parents. Like, they weren't in this world beforehand. And my mum always said that she wasn't gonna allow Stephen's death just to be a statistic or just to be, like, something that was just passed off of just something just happened, that she was gonna find out what happened, she was gonna get the answers that she wanted, and she wasn't gonna stop until she got those answers. That then becomes a problem for the met. Don't I like it? Well, they didn't think it was a problem. At the beginning part, they honestly didn't think it was gonna be a problem. From their attitude, from the things that they said, and they didn't ever think that she would or was going to get the help and support that she did get. But that's how motherhood changed the nation. Yeah. You must be proud of your mum. 100%. She's the absolute warrior. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I tell people, it's hard to be, to live in her shadow and try to make her proud because she works so hard and she's so driven and determined to do things. So that's really hard. To the standards of what is good and what is acceptable is extremely high in my household. But it drives me forward. It keeps me determined. It keeps me focused and honest. It really does. How can you live a kind of normal life when something like that happens? It's all over the world news, eventually, like what has eventually happened? But how can, how does that affect you? Going to work or relationships or whatever? Like obviously it will still play a massive effect but I've lost family members and friends to murder. I know the pain and the struggle, what it's like and it never goes away. So for yourself, it had such a high profile case. How do you move on? Especially if there's no convictions, especially if there's no closure, could you ever really move on or did you try and block out? How did you deal with it? So my parents did a really good job of allowing me to be a child. So I was 16, I just about did my GCSEs. So they were very adamant from the beginning that me, your interest of me and my sister should never be publicized. But if you go back and look through the footage and stuff, you'll see me there. So every major event I'm there but the press were pretty good allowing me not naming me and put me on front pages and things which allowed me to have some sort of childhood and to be able to be some sort of normality. So after Stephen died, I went to college for a year, Woolwich College. And what I then did is I had a habit of going to somewhere and a new place not telling people my back history of who I am. So I wanted people to know me for Stuart and then as things progressed and moved on for me getting to know people, they would then find out little bits and pieces or see me on the news. Like, oh, so you're on the news? Like, is that your brother? And put things together and then find out who I was which I preferred. So I did that for, I'd say through college. I redid my GCSEs, I did my A-levels, the same thing for two years at Elephant Castle. And then for three years at university, I left London and went to Northampton. The same sort of thing as well. And only the people that were really close to me would know and everyone else that I wouldn't feel the need to tell them. So that's how I sort of protected myself a little bit. But then I realized now later on that that's not a good way to live your life, just meeting people and then cutting them off and disappearing. Especially now that I've got my own son myself, like I really want to introduce into them some of those people that I had along my journey and like who people I worked with, who I went to college with, like just to meet them and talk to them about how I was at that age is something that I'm really interested in now. But that's what I found that that was my coping mechanism. Now looking back at it, that's the way I coped which helped me, but it wasn't healthy really to keep on doing that. So now I'm a bit better now of it all about talking about it and letting people know and explaining the things I've been through and how it made me feel. But that's taken time to be comfortable enough to do that as well. Because then you become the light for the other people that's maybe stuck in the darkness. Like even just sitting in your presence, you've got a great energy. You can see you're a good guy, great family behind you. Like I think I read a stat, I actually read a stat last night. Like half the murders in London are the black kids. And only 13% of the population is black kids. So the stats is very high. So it's sad. But it never used to be a thing. It never used to be a thing. This is the only thing I'd say since I think about 2000, I wanna say 2004, 2005, it started to become a thing where black kids were murdering other black kids. Before then, it was never a thing. And that's why I tried to advocate now and go out and speak to young people because lots of these young people are doing things and not understanding the consequence and the knock on effect and how these things live with you for life. And it doesn't just affect you and your little bubble of your friendship groups or the arguments you're having between another group of kids. They've got family and that ripple effect then goes out wider. So I have a son myself now. He will have to carry the burden of Stephen's murder and know about it and people, other people know about it and want to talk to you about it. That's, he will never understand or know life with Stephen and have that experience and that exposure or have his cousins that maybe Stephen could have had, all those little bits of pieces that people at the moment don't understand the consequences. And that's what I tried to do now. Just tried to let people know that life is precious. Every day is a blessing and try and maximize that day and conflict with other human beings isn't our mission, isn't our purpose of being here. Obviously you're reading on the news, you see all the crimes in London. I spend a lot of time in London now and it's became a big piece of my heart. Like I love it. I've been in Battersea, I've been in Brixton and I'm welcomed so much. Like the food is amazing, the people are great, the culture, everything about it. It's a great place. You just hear about the bad shit consistently and that's the sad things but there's so many good people in there who help the kids, who help the homeless, who do what they can to make it a better place. I don't think you hear about it as much which is sad. But that's the news though, isn't it? We don't have the good news, do we? It's not constant good news. It's just about doom and gloom. It's about the more extremity of life that we hear in the news and that's why again, it's only that we only hear about the negative side which is bad because there are so many good people in there. There are so many good kids in London as well that are doing good things and trying to be the best they can and it's the small minority that are making it seem like something really bad for everyone. And I think that that's also what feeds into the idea about knife crime, about youth violence that there's an idea that everyone's at it. All the kids are carrying knives, all the kids are got this violent thing where they wanna hurt each other. When it's not, it's a small majority and if we can get that small majority and get the masses to understand that they carry a bigger weight than the small majority, then hopefully we can start to turn the tables on it a bit more. Yeah, well Glasgow was a mother capital in Europe for many years or so. Do you know what I mean? It's not just, it's people of all different colours who do bad shit as rare, it's not, I just feel as if it can be targeted that young black kids, it's them, it's causing the trouble of saying it's going to murder us when it's really, it's fucking everybody. It's just the standard of living is poor. And just, that's all I was gonna say. It's deprivation, social mobility, it's prospects, it's opportunities. When you wake up every day and the first thing you've gotta think about is how am I gonna eat today? Am I gonna have to have the electricity on? And that's your main concern or worry as an adult and not whether what's my child going to do today? How am I gonna make them the best individual? How am I gonna facilitate them to go to these different clubs and these different experiences? If that's not your first thought, then it's all messed up, isn't it? And then school becomes an environment where that's where they look after children and that's how the children are grown and brought up when really and truly the family at home have to play a pioneer as well. But if the family at home is always working and worrying about how to pay the bills and the cost of living, all these different extremities of life, they make it really difficult for you to focus on your children and bring them up and making them the best versions of themselves to then go and support the community which then supports the country, that supports the world. See when you were going through it, it's 17 years before the convictions, like how hard was it to see documentaries, to bin newspapers, to see those guys that's skipping away from court and kinda making fun of the system? How hard is that for you and the family? Like you probably thought, this is never gonna happen. No, it didn't, he didn't, because again, it felt like every single time that we thought we've got them, we're ahead of it. It got to the final stage and it just felt like there were two steps ahead of us all the time and they knew more bits of more information than we did. And I said that hopefully now in years to come that will come out about the undercover policing, the police corruption and all the leakage that we had around the case will come out so people can understand because lots of people presumed until murder changed the nation, that documentary came out. A lot of people presumed that we would be in difficult as a family, that the police were doing the best job ever and we were just complaining and moaning about it all the time. And it wasn't until that and the Mark Daley one where he did the undercover police officer stuff as well. And it just showed the country really, the other side of the coin that holding a minute like this, there's people that believe and act like this in the police, that wasn't thought of beforehand. And now that we had the evidence, video footage, tape footage of people saying things and acting a certain way, that's when it gave people a better understanding that hold on a minute, there's something not quite right here. Maybe these guys were telling the truth and people weren't doing their job to their best of their abilities. Did you know any of the five before the murder? No. Were they from that area? Yeah, so again, so like I said, Mark Wintes house was 100 meters around the corner on Rochester Way. And so I was in and around that area quite a lot. There was a model car shop in Elton which used to go to quite a lot as well. So I was in and around Elton quite a lot during the day, never bumped into them, never heard of them. But I was like, I'm two and a half years younger. So I find sometimes certain things happen in certain age groups. So they were known in that age group. So that's 18 plus age group. People knew them as a gang of boys in and around the area. But I never knew them, never met them, never bumped into them once. Did one of them not stab another? Black kid just a couple of months or a couple of weeks before that? Yeah, so we got to find out. Yeah, so I could say they were quite prolific in the area. So there was an incident at a kebab shop, a black kid was in a kebab shop, all doing some food. I think they came in and asked him what he was doing in their area. And there was a confrontation. And as he left, there was a couple of a festival and yeah, when he got stabbed just once and then he run off and managed to survive. What was the evidence against them? So, and this is the harbour. So before we get to the evidence part, what needs to be known is that they were being surveilled. The surveillance was happening on them. So after Nelson Mandela, they started surveilling the boys. And there's pictures of them taking black bags from a house to the back of a car, three or four times this happens. And then the car, one of them gets in the car and drives off. Now the people surveilling them has a decision to make. He can even follow the car or stay where he is. Now he decides to stay where he is. Now, for me as a curious cat, well, what's in the back bags? What's in the car? Why not follow that and find out what happens to that? But he decides not to. And then the evidence that we find is the clothing that was taken from after they get arrested after six weeks. So they get arrested after six weeks. They go into their houses. They ask them what they were wearing, clothes are taken and put into evidence bags. These evidence bags are then stored in Deatford Police Station. And for the duration. So Deatford Police Station closed in 97, 98. And this has been climbed, Driscoll took over the case. And as the police station is about to be enclosed, these evidence bags are about to be thrown away. And one of the police officers says to Clive, what do you want to do with these evidence bags? Shall I just throw them away and the rest of the skip with the rest of the stuff? And Clive goes, no, send them to long-term storage because you never know what might happen. We might be able to find something a bit later on down the line. So the stuff gets sent to long-term storage. Now technology moves forward, time moves forward. And basically the microscopes that they have become more powerful, are better at finding different bits and pieces. And the evidence that's found on the clothes in the bag of the evidence are speckles bits of blood. And they are able now to use the speckles of blood and to use the magnifying glass to analyze it. And it's Stephen's blood. So then what happens next is they've got to then, they do DNA tests on all the boys, they do DNA tests on all of us as family members as well, trying to make sure that the blood is found, is Stephen's, it is. But they're so small that they could sit on the top of a human's hair. That's how small the particle of bloods are. And, but that's what convicts them basically. That's what you could make you get a retry with the new technology, the new evidence. Yeah. I believe that was it hair and blood? No, no. So the hair was, their hair was encased in Stephen's blood on the clothing. So one of the bits of evidence was a coat and the other part was a pair of jeans. And the coat has under the lapel encased in one of their hairs. The blood was encased in under the lapel. And then the jeans, there was a specks of blood on the jeans as well. So this is in 2010, nearly 20 years later. Was your mum giving up hope at any time? I think we had decided after the last private prosecution case that we had tried to do ourselves that the possibility of having any convictions was nil to none. We was just like, it's not ever gonna happen unless someone confesses because we didn't think the evidence was ever gonna be there. So yeah, we pretty much had come to the thought of we're gonna never give up but we're quite mindful that unless one of them confesses it's never gonna come true. So when your mum, who got the phone call to say that there's newest scientific evidence, was it your mum? Was it? Because it can as well. Was he still a lawyer? Yeah, so Imran Khan's always been a lawyer. And by this time now my mum and dad have split up so they're two different lawyers and two different families to notify. So Clive notified my mum and I think my dad might have been living in Jamaica at the time so he notified his lawyer and then phone calls were made and stuff, yeah. Was there break up the stresses and pressures all the other day? Yeah, I can only put it down to that. So this was about two years after Steven passed away they split up. And I can only put it down to that. You know, it's grief is a hard thing for anyone to go through and everyone's grief is individual and how people deal with things and want to deal with things again as an individual basis. And yeah, I just feel like the strain of everything, the press, the media that we're trying to keep the momentum going, trying to live life. They still had two kids to look after as well. I just think it just got too much for them both to deal with and yeah, they decided to go their separate ways. Is that an extra added bit of pressure on yourself to try and live us like a normal life? I said to them at the time, like I was 18 at the time so I just said to them like, Georgina would have only been 13. I said to them like, just try and do your best with Georgina. I had 16 years of utopia of, you know, a perfect little life where everything was good. And I just wanted to try and give my sister as much of a normality of life as possible. So I just said to them like to focus on her. Like I was just about to go to university. I knew where I was going, what I wanted to do, where she didn't. So yeah, I just said to them like, look after her, focus on her as like, and I'll just carry on doing what I've got to do and I'll dip in and dip out of life as much as I can. You seem very level-headed, brother. Like, yeah, brother, let no doubt Stephen would be proud of you. Like you've got your head on your shoulders. Like a lot of people that could turn into vengeance and hurt and rage. Like you're very understanding towards the system, which a lot of people would be sitting here effing and blinding the system, but you seem to understand it and go, do you know what you've, you've not just accepted that you've, you know what it involves, you know what it takes, but you know that you can't quit in life either. No, you can't. And one of the dimensions of life that kept me going through was asking what Stephen want me to do, how he want me to act, what type of person he want me to be. And bitterness and anger and revenge are great things to think about and to try to get your head round. But they're bitterness, they're anger, that hate that can only go one way and make you a bitter, hateful, angry person. And then what kind of person would that be for my sister? So I want to be trying to be the best role model and the best big brother I could be for my sister. And if I was going around spitting vengeance and anger, then that's what she would do. And that's, that's no way. I'm not from that world either. I say to people at the time, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, all of a sudden going to some sort of gang, I'm not from that world, I don't understand it. So therefore, what can I, what can I do, try to do to be in it? And that wouldn't be the way to honor my brother's death, like to find my, end up myself in prison, criminal record and all that stuff. No, I'd rather try to be a positive, try to be the shining light of hope and optimism of what life can be for people, even though you can have something so negative. So one of my favorite things to say, but it's not where you start, it's where you finish in life. Like that for me is a great momentum builder and a great driver. Like what can I do? How can I help others to be something different in their life by showing them and giving them a little bit example of what's happened to me in my life. Yeah, very noble brother. So 2010, did your mum had to meet with Cannes to then go to court and try and present new evidence to then try and get a retrial? Well, no, because then what happened then is CPS took over. Who's that? The government, so the government's lawyers were now going to retry the case against the boys, well against these two boys. And so in Rand, all in Rand's job was to do was to facilitate and to give us over as much evidence and stuff that they had found out to try and help support the case. So yeah, so that was what the, so they announced that they were going to charge the two guys to us. One of them was in prison, one of them was out about still. So that was a bit of an operation to try and, as he was being released to rearrest him and to send him back inside and to go and find the other one that was out and about and to arrest him. So they did that. And then yeah, the momentum started for the case. So that was Dobson and Norris? Yeah. And then one was in prison for drugs that was out and about. When you eventually got two people charged for the murder of your brother, how was it, was that a relief for you and your family? Were you thinking it's going to go through court again? It's going to be another not proven or acquitted or whatever? I didn't have any hope that they were going to be convicted. I didn't. That like, I'm a firm believe if you go with the worst case scenario in your mind and something positive happens and that's the best outcome I can possibly have. So yeah, definitely was just like, it's not going to happen. It's just another, we're just going to go through the process again, hopes are going to be held really high. We think we're going to get some sort of positive outcome and it's not going to happen. So I was just like, I'm just going to go through it. I'm just going to go through this, knowing that it's not going to have a positive outcome. And so I managed to get time off work and go to the old Bailey and be at the trial every day. I was fed up of being told information second hand constantly, you know, I went to be there for myself and hear it and understand and absorb it for myself. And then that was, that was great as well for me to understand the levels and the layers of all of this, all this time thinking I knew stuff as well. I'm not really known and understanding stuff. And yeah, that, that, that again, like I said, we went through the whole process and when the jury was sent out to, to go and find a verdict, we thought we'd be there for the next six, seven weeks, maybe, maybe eight weeks max for them to deliberate. And yeah, I think it took them three or four days, I think we was there. You're thinking that was a negative. Yeah, straight away. Because it's like, how can you come to a conclusion so quickly? Like we've been here, I think we've been there like months. It felt like we've been there for like a good three or four months, hearing evidence, hearing testimonials from both sides of the arguments. I just thought to myself, like at least four weeks they would need to deliberate, go for everything. But no, it was like three or four days and they came back with a verdict. How was it realizing that being in the courtroom to hear everything in small detail or how your brother died, that, that shot ain't easy, like how did you deal with that? So the only day I walked out was when the forensic person was going through the actual wounds and stuff. That sort of stuff, I don't need to hear and just be reminded off. I just, I just didn't feel the need to go through that side of the things. And when they were showing the lab pictures and stuff like that, I don't, I don't need to see my brother like that. Like I preferred to have the memories and the visualization I have of him in my mind of him doing things with myself and how much we enjoyed our time together. So that was hard. And I definitely didn't want to go and see none of that, but it was, again, it's really lethargic in some sort of way because I spent a lot of time people telling me things or seeing documentaries or reading stuff in newspaper. So it was good to hear from people that the truth or what these versions or their versions of the truth firsthand. So that gave me a lot of satisfaction of hearing things and knowing things for myself. But it was hard. It was hard. It was hard. And I wrote every single day of the trial, I journal quite a lot. And so every night I went home and I wrote down how I was feeling, what I went through and all those sort of things I did just to try and get it out as well. Do you think that that was your therapy and your escape to put it into paper so as if you're talking to someone? Yeah, a hundred percent. I have not looked back over it. Like I've got about three or four books and I have not looked over them, but I just know it's not in me no more. And I've let it go to some sort of extent because if you don't, then you carry these things around you, it affects your relationships. And one thing I definitely know is I don't want it to affect my relationship with my wife and I don't want to affect my relationship with my son. Like in that sort of level. And my son's now 10, coming onto 11, really, really soon going to secondary school. And there's a conversation I've got to have with him that I just, it's a hard conversation to have. Like he's going to be going to school where other people are going to be telling things about his family and about him. And he's going to have to somehow stand up and defend and talk about it. And to be the voice of, no, this is what's happened. This is the truth. Because there's still people out there that spell ridiculous things about my brother now. Like there's still comments about him being a drug dealer and being a gangster. And I know this for a fact because he dealt me drugs. And I saw him in all these different things. Lots of people still say those negative things about my brother, which is hard. But it doesn't matter what you are or what you do. Even if he wasn't, it doesn't give anybody the right to take his life. Do you know what I mean? But how was it sitting in court with the two people who killed your brother? Hard, really, really hard because you've got to remember as well. Like they've carried their lives on. They've got kids themselves. They've been able to live life and to experience different things that Steven never got to experience. So that's hard to see them in that context. But what I don't try to do is I don't try to give them any relevance or any presence in life, in my world. Because I feel like when you talk about people say their names, I don't even say their names. I don't say their names. Because if you talk and say someone's names, that gives them presence in the world and gives them stature. So they are there and nobody's. They're nothing in life for me. And yeah, until they've understood what they've done and the consequences of their actions and the fact that it has had on everyone and the arts of forgiveness, then as far as I'm concerned, they don't exist. Would you ever accept an apology from them? Would you ever, if they came forward and says, look, I was young, I was at that life and I thought it was cool to hurt people, injure people like if they says to you, I'm sorry for my actions, would you accept their apology? I'd be open to hear it and I'd be open to understand their mindset of the time. I don't know if I'd be able to forgive them because I'm not putting that scenario yet. So that's why I don't have to have that full process. But yeah, even the two that were convicted are still saying no involvement. It wasn't us. You guys have set us up. You know what I mean? All those connotations. So there is no exception of guilt from them two, which I find really hard to accept, but they are who they are. They are who they are. They decided to live their life in this manner and to have this mindset. I'll never understand it. I don't want to understand their mindset. And yeah, as I said, I'm just going to go and try and go forth and try and do the best I can to try and make the world a better place. Is any of the five I was trying to reach out or a secret note or pass a message on, nothing like that is just all denial, still trying to still shame your brother and finger like blaming? Yeah, yeah, nothing, nothing, no, nothing at all. And again, it's, yeah, I don't even know how I would accept or deal with that if they tried to do that. Yeah, that would be really weird because I said as far as I'm concerned, they've always said that it wasn't them. They had nothing to do with it. Yeah. Life is a mad thing, though, that people, even, like, I've interviewed some bad men who's made people victims of their crimes and some of them have went in years and years and if something's happened, they've come out and changed. They want forgiveness. They want, I think, you don't know what is around the corner like for you to be even sitting, even contemplating if they said, sorry, how would you do it like that? Just shows you the kind of character. You are like, other people would just turn them to fuck off and rot in hell, basically, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. But again, to get closer and to hold on to a bit of this anguish, just a poison for you that's just you breaking down yourself and things like that can be difficult. But again, it shows you what kind of character you are to then go, do you know what? I would be open to it, but forgiveness is hard. But to forgive, that you can then move on in life. But that's such a difficult thing. Everybody struggles with it now, much as I preach and try to become a better individual. I still struggle to forgive, but I know giving other people love and forgiveness that then makes me a better person and more man to then go, do you know what? You ain't gonna hold me in any fucking disease or stress. No, definitely. And for me, the example I try to shade to people with the time that I like to use is Nelson Mandela. So I found out recently that the prison wardens that held Nelson Mandela, that did some horrific things to him, he invited them to dinner, win it on his release. And for me, to from hand to just go, do you know what? I'm gonna invite you around my house, wanna sit down and break bread of you and I'm going to allow the past to be the past and our future to be so different. Just shows me as a person that maybe I need to do more, maybe it's more about me that I'm not quite tapped into yet. If someone like that can do it, then why can I not? So I try to try to use examples of other people who've been through other things similar to what I've been through to see how they dealt with it and how they become a better person. And Nelson Mandela is a great one for me to try and use for that example. That's why he's respected all over the world. Yeah. I mean, that's why he was a leader, that people would follow him and do whatever that he said because he's leads by his actions. Exactly. The grief is a powerful thing. There's no manual how to deal with grief. Everybody's different. Now we can sit here and smile, but we could be still breaking and screaming for help inside. That's like, it's not a thing that we've been conditioned to go through. And I've got a lot of ex-veterans and stuff is wearing somewhere on the SCS trained and biggest trained killers on the planet to do what they've got to do. But yeah, they're broken inside. You can train somebody from the outside to be strong, but if they're breaking within, then there's no manual how to fix that. No, that's true. People say time's a healer, but you adapt to the pain, I believe. A hundred cent. Do you know what I mean? You don't accept it. You just adapt. You don't have to deal with the fucking drama. And that's the hard thing, but it's also a beautiful thing. Like I say, you can help guide others to then not like for you to sit here and go, do you know what? I'm not gonna go with vengeance or anger and go on a mad, because that makes you know, the difference from the bad people in life. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? No, definitely. So when you got the guilty verdict, 2011, how was that for you and your family? It was a weird day. It was a weird day. So we was around the corner me and a friend having lunch. And in fact, just chopping it up, saying like how many more times are we gonna be coming to this place to have lunch before we get to find out what happened? And yeah, we've got a text message to say that we had to come back to the old Bailey because we had a verdict. And so like I said, straight away, I was just like, oh my goodness, like this is such a good nigga. And I was worried about my mom and dad, how they were going to take it. And then sort of like the sort of role on effect, how was he gonna move forward from this? Another sort of opportunity to have a positive outcome but not having a positive outcome. And then yeah, we went inside and we got the verdict that they were found guilty. And I'll say to you all the time, but it does feel joyous to have that feeling because there was a sense of, oh my goodness, like we're being believed. Like it's come to a point now where they're saying, what happened, what we thought had happened, had happened. But it's then like someone says to you, well, you haven't really won because that's only two of them. There's more than two people involved. So it felt like, yes, we won, but we hadn't won. Better sweet. Better sweet. And then the next thought that came after was just like, well, if we've caught these two and we've convicted these two, why can't we get the rest of them? But it's evidence-based. There is no more evidence. They tested all the clothing that they had, all the evidence bags of all the stuff that they collected during that time. There's no more blood specables. There's no more blood particles on any other clothing. So that line of enquiries is not there. So the only other line of enquiries is someone saying, what's happened and telling the truth. And that, again, I'm not in any way, shape or form, in any land of hope saying that's gonna happen because the two that were convicted were asking for a retrial because they were saying it never happened. It wasn't them. The clothes belong to someone else. They've never worn the clothes. Like there was so many excuses given that, yeah, that there isn't nothing. How was that then, asking for another retrial once they got convicted of you thinking? Yeah, go again. Yeah, so afterwards I got on a plane with my wife and my son who would have been six months old at the time. And we just went to Spain for two weeks and just had some time out, just chilled out. And it was the last day. So I had a great time unplugged from it all, just slept, felt so much better, so much recharged, just about to come back. And the day that we was coming back on the BBC World News, it came up that they were going for a retrial, which again just felt like another dagger in the heart sort of thing. I was just like, when's this ever gonna end sort of thing? So we packed ourselves up, came back to England, spoke to Imran and this stuff. And he was saying, look, that's just basic procedure. Like they thought that was gonna happen and they were quite convinced that the evidence and the conviction they had was quite secure. And if they kept on pushing really, then maybe their time could go up in prison rather than come down. So yeah, that was quite good to know that. But again, it just felt, it just feels all the time when we feel like we're moving forward, that when someone puts a chess piece, two pieces back and says, oh no, you haven't made any progress really. That's the way it feels. But the sentencing, they've only got 15 years. Why? Because they tried as, one of them was only 17 at the time. I think he got 14 years, three months. And the other one got 15 years, because he was 18 at the time. So they have to be tried as the miners or the age they were when that crime was committed. This is a potential issue we've got, what, 25, 30 years? Yeah, it's just a modern day status, yeah. So they'll be due out soon. Yep. Was that a massive part in your mind as well? I don't tend to think about it. I have been thinking about it recently because we're getting towards the time, but the only good thing is they're on Her Majesty's pleasure. So there needs to be some form of admittance of guilt, some form of admittance of changing a mindset or behavior for them to be able to be released. So for me, that means talking and saying what you've done. So let's see what happens. Let's see if they then do fess up or they're not gonna get released as far as we're concerned. But God, what some mysterious ways, obviously to not get more convictions, obviously you're saying a confession, but people carrying that burden, people carrying that guilt for so long that eventually people do crack. You'd be surprised. Obviously you don't want to put your hopes on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've never, even though you've got two convictions, there's still no closure for you. I can see that where somebody's not said, you know what, I've done it. I'm sorry. Please forgive me that whether it happens, you don't know, but God does work in mysterious ways. Look what you've done with the new technology to then create convictions. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. And people having that stress and pain for years and years and years, not knowing if they're those gonna get kicked in every day because new evidence that they would be, they would be going through a tournament every day and rightly so, do you know what I mean? I hope so. That's all I can hope. Because there are quite a few people that know exactly what happened on that night, more than just the five people that were involved. How many people do you think were involved? So I think there was six people involved in total. The gang is known as a gang of five, but there was a sixth member that used to be on the peripherals. They used to dip in and dip out. I think their parents know as well, because we later found on that two of the boys have parents who are in the gangland world. So therefore they knew and were given bits of information and told certain ways to behave and things to say and not to say. So I think they know. And then they had girlfriends as well. So there's another layer and so there's another six people that knew there as well. So yeah, I think there's a good sort of 20 people outside the five or six that know exactly what happened that night and have decided to keep that to themselves. So a lot of people, yeah. And it's surprising though that nobody ever did break. But again, they were prolific. They were notorious. And like I said, I found out now afterwards that one of the dads were paying off the local police and they had a run. So they were exporting drugs around Europe and they had a run from Southeast London all the way to the ports, all the way into Calais and it was called the Cocaine Drive or Cocaine Mile or something that they had where they were just paying people off to have the right passage to be able to do what they were doing. So like I said, they were absolutely feared in the Southeast London area. So a lot of connections. Yeah. Did you or your family ever get pressure put on you to stop? So we moved after three or four months from the house in Woolwich because my dad's car got the knife, the tire's got a knife a couple of times. So we ended up moving and we didn't go back to the family home for a year and a half because of it all. But nothing other than that. Nothing other than that. But it's still sad that you use other victims but yet more pressure to then try and silence you. Yeah. There's a lot of people do get silenced. No. And I think again, that's the reason why one of the sort of 20 peripherals haven't been come forward. Fear? Yeah, 100% because I said they operated in such a level that they were only sort of like community level but they also had the pain of police officers. They're all players also paying custom officers of well. So you don't know one of the police officers that you may be going to speak to may not be on the payroll. Yeah. Who was the man? Sir, who was it? Sir William MacPherson? Yeah. And he came out with the statement that was the police were institutionally racist. Yeah. So there's facts there that we know that anyway. There's plenty of videos out there that let's say not all corpus are bad, do you know what I mean? 100% yeah. Everybody knows that but there's proper scumbags out there who are proper racist towards kids, and it's sad and it's scary to see that. So yeah, MacPherson coined the term institutionally racist by saying that institutions allow these people to have their racist behavior and never be challenged and never have the questions around their conducts come into play. And this was evident so through that the whole thing about the CPR like the first take it, why would you not take it out? Why would you see two black kids and automatically think that there's some crime that's been committed rather than going, oh my goodness, someone's on the floor, they're losing blood, let me perform first aid. So they were saying the mindset of these officers were going, well, yeah, they are criminals. They're black kids. It's the time of the night they were in hoodies. Yeah, they're involved in criminality. So that's what MacPherson said in 1999 to try and allow everyone to understand that the system was broken and that's why the 70 recommendations were made to try and change the system in some sort of way to allow it to be better for everyone rather than just for a few. Yeah, the system's clearly broken, brother. Yeah. For everybody that's in the system, like the rate of people who re-offend, it's just sad that the people in prison, there's no, they're just coming out worse. But prison isn't a system to try and rehabilitate people to make them better. That prison's just a place for us to put people away and forget about them for a bit of time. That's what it is. It's a money-making scheme as well. It is huge. It's a property grant. It's huge. It's a good year as well. It's huge. It's a slavery and prisons. There is. And I think lots of people are misguided by the fact about prison systems and the judicial system. And then the rate of, so I was a schoolteacher of 15 years, so permanent exclusions, that is the bedrock of the reasons why people go down into crime and into these worlds because if you're not allowing them to have a future, to see where they could go and the possibilities of things that they could do, and you're saying to them, no, you're a bad kid. You've got no hopes and opportunities. Then if you bottle everyone together like that, then they don't seem like they've got any hope or open opportunities. So they do do the wrong things and they do turn to life of crime, which then exacerbates the whole process of police crime prisons. Like it's a vicious circle. And I just feel like if young people are given better starts in life, if we are able to understand why someone's misbehaving and can't conform and wants to be maybe violent or aggressive, let's find out the reasons why for those things. So there's something called ACE trauma, which they found that there's seven or eight, nine different traumas that kids can go through. And if they go through two or three more of these types of trauma, it can reduce their life expectancy as an adult by 10 years. They are more likely to go to prison. They're more likely to go on drugs. So if we can solve the problem earlier on, then the problems that happen later in life, if they won't happen. So that's why I advocate so much for young people to have the best start, to go and speak to them and try and offer them something different in life. Yeah, that I feel a lot of criminals as well. And I always say this, but every single one, there's a link. Every single one is believed they're abused when they're younger. Every single one that holding that gun or a knife, I believe is because they're so broken. It's because they're dealing with so much trauma that holding gun or a knife is to try and protect them, even though they're so broken they don't want to feel pain anymore. But then they inflict pain on the others because they try to protect themselves, which is weird, but like I say, the people who hold the guns or a knife, I believe are the weakest. People always ask me the question, do you not get scared? I say no because I see vulnerability and actually break it all down and have a conversation with them. You can actually see the sadness. You can actually see the pain they're in, even though people are fearful of them. They've just projected that image. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I see all through the bullshit, which is, but people just love to hear the stories as well and people can understand. That's why I always go back to the start of the guest to give people an understanding of what they've been. As a lesson in life as well, there comes choices. I understand that you can make choices. You can, and I think choices, and that's not to say to younger people, like you don't feel like the choices you can make are so significant now, but there's still some couple of things that you can control, your attitude, your effort level, things that come out of your mouth, your actions, there are things you can control, but there's other things you may not be able to control where you live, where you go to school, per se, but then as you get older, so I think 16, 17, 18, 18, you can start making more choices about where you go to school, the type of friends you hang around with, the prospects you're gonna go forth and go and do. So you can't continuously blame someone else, but in that early part, yeah, it's other people shaping them and pushing you in different directions, but as soon as you start to know what's right from wrong, and we all know that, I do believe that we all know what feels right or wrong from the reaction in your stomach, from the reaction from other people, and when you can start to feel that, I'm doing something good, keep on doing that. If it doesn't feel quite right and other people are looking at you funny, then don't do it. I'm a firm believer in that. How hard was it to, your mum made the decision to bury Stephen in Jamaica? Do you think that was the right decision for yourselves to then, instead of the UK? Yeah, it was the right decision when you look at things like the memorial plaque being defaced, it's got a CCTV camera on it now that watches it because it's been defaced so many times. It's the right decision when we had a building built in Deppford for the trust, Stephen Morris Center, and within the first couple of weeks, the windows got smashed. So when you look at things like that, then yes, it was the right decision. It's not the right decision now because I want to go and pay homage and I've now got to get on a plane and do all that to go and pay homage to go and to show Theo and to get Theo to have a better understanding. So that's hard, but I know why she did it. I know why she did it and it does make some sort of sense. That's a fucking heartbreaking note. What is people going through? What's going through people's minds to do that shit? Do you know what I mean? It's sad. That makes the world a sad place that people who's going through enough grief and trauma to then having to take your kids over to a whole other country to bury them because the fear of people destroying the grave that's fucking sad, man. Yeah, it is. But what I say to people at the time, like it's confusing and weird when you think about it, but then I say, well, it's confusing and weird for us because we're not of that mindset. That would never cross our mind to do something like that. So therefore we can't comprehend and understand it. So I don't try to give it to me layers of trying to get to understand why someone would do that and just go, you know what? That's them. Do you ever ask yourself the question, why me? Yeah, all the time. All the time. And when I was a lot younger, I felt, so again, I considered a bit of rebel when I was younger. I did some of the things I'm not proud of when I was growing up and I did start to feel like maybe this is punishment for these things. You know, we were a good Christian family. So I went to church every Sunday. So you get told like your behavior and your actions that God may be punishing you for not being true. So I did think a long time that maybe this was some sort of punishment for all the things that I had done wrong previously in my life as a young person. But then I also said, question, well, hold on a minute. I did try to get asked for forgiveness. I did try to do the right thing by going to church. I did try to be a good person. Really sure that would give me some sort of kudos and some sort of light that I was trying to do the right thing. And I knew so many people and so many friends who never, ever went to church and never did those sort of things and their life seemed to be okay. So yeah, that was a massive question in my head for a long time. No, you can't put that burden on you, man. I know the question's still arise, but yeah. What was your last, do you remember the last conversation you ever had with Steven? So this is kind of a weird one. Cause like I said, so we shared a room together. So like any brothers and sisters, we would argue and fight and have different agreements of things. And I think that the disagreement was when I, as a curious soul, myself, we had a Walkerman each and mine broke and he had his one. And I thought, if I get his and I undo it, I can find out why mine's broken and I can re-fix it. So I did his one trying to, and I can never put it back together again. I was only 12 or 13 at the time. And yeah, that really pissed him off. Really pissed him off. So we was going through some battles at the time. And, but we had sort of come to the sort of recognition of going, you know what, cool. It's your birthday. I'm not going to be angry if you know more. We're moving on. And yeah, as I said, I was the annoying little brother. I can definitely see that now. I can definitely see that. And yeah, we, because again, that, that morning, my dad has set us both down and said, look, your mom's coming home to the evening. Don't be late home. You know, make sure you come home safe and still stew and don't be past 10 o'clock, Stephen. And we was like, yeah, definitely because I've been seeing my mom for three or four days before that. So that was the last thing that I remember I was talking about and being like, make sure you come home on time. What about your mom? No, her's your mom. Yeah, she's good. Working like a nutter still. I say to her, I just want her to slow down a bit and just take life and enjoy some life now. But yeah, she's good. She just works extremely hard. Yeah, she does. You can just see that. But I think maybe if she did slow down, then maybe that's when the thoughts then... Yeah, maybe, maybe. But I just feel, I say to people at times, I just feel like she deserves to have some time for herself, enjoy a grand kid, see some of the world, enjoy some of life. Yeah. You know, you've done a good service. You've done good for so many others. You've tried to help so many other people. It's just been nice for you to take some time for yourself. So that's what I'm trying to encourage her to do at the moment, which is really hard. Yeah, man, a strong woman. But she showed people courage never to give up, never quit. And she went up against the system. Yeah. Which not many people do and survive. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's scary what the reins people have to go to to then get some answers. Yeah. Again, I say to people, she didn't go, oh my goodness, I'm going to have to fight the system. Like, I don't think it ever crossed her mind. Her driving force was he's not going to be statistic. He's not just going to be a name that people just say, we are going to find out. We're going to get to the root of where this comes from. We're going to understand. And we're going to also enable others not to go through the same thing that we rent through as a family. So I'm hopeful now that victim support is a lot better for people. I'm hopeful that the police experience is better for people. And all these things have come out through the experience that we rent through as a family, because I'd never want anyone to go through what we went through as a family. I want people to, if something horrific happens in your life, for you to be able to phone the police and to believe that and understand the system will protect and support you and to get your positive outcome on the other end of it. Yeah. That's a good way to deal with it and try and see that my mom's lost two brothers to murder. She lost her husband to the chemo and I was in a fucking mess for years. So I can understand the struggle that she's been through, but she's still soldiers on. Now she's seen me in a good light and makes her proud that things, the dark clouds do pass, like you say, we do adapt to the pain, we do adapt to the trauma, but life does go on. That's how we deal with it, like you say, you question it sometimes, why? But these are the cars we've been dealt with. That's how we play them after that is down to us. But because Steven was a very talented boy, he was not at Denzel Washington for them. Yeah, so. Did I read that? Yeah, he was an Elven, who's his best friend. They managed to get themselves in and around people and things that I now look back and go, how, why? So they're both into graffiti. They're both into hip hop. This was just on the cusp of hip hop in America coming over here. Yeah, two pack biggie. Yeah, two pack biggie, Wu-Tank Clan, NWA, public enemy, all those guys, Wu-Tank Clan, LL Cool J, Rakeem, all those guys, when they first came to England, Elven got to meet them. So they were doing graffiti jackets, jeans. Yeah, the words on channel four, they used to go there regularly, concert tickets, they used to go to them, all things. So yeah, it was really weird that they found their ways into these sort of environments, but they were just on the cusp and loving the scene and just wanting to be in and around it as much as possible. You must have been looking at the two pack biggie kind of mud there, but I'm thinking again, it's kind of the same. It is. And the timings as well. One was killed in September, one was killed in April as well, which is really, really weird. Both in the same year, the 18 months in, your brother and stuff that you're thinking, no conviction for that. And you're probably thinking, if they can't get a conviction, Las Vegas, cameras, then you'd probably be thinking yourself like, was that ever a connection to your mindset, that? But yeah, definitely. Because again, it's, we never, I never had any hope. Never had any hope. Never. Because I said, it just felt like every time, it was like, right, yep, this time, we've really got a good case. This time, we've really got some strong things going in our direction. It just manifested itself in not to be in. And like, it just left everyone scratching their heads, going, well, why have we not had a positive outcome? Why is this not quite worked? Like I said, that's only come down to now, the finding out of. So even down to McPherson, we're now finding out McPherson wasn't shown, or he asked for all the evidence, all the information around Stephen's case. We're now finding out there was still stuff hidden from him and then that goes back down to people making decisions. Who made this decision? Who said, no, no, don't send them that stuff. Because as far as I'm concerned, again, these people are still being paid through their pensions, through the public purse. So why should they be given this money when they're not doing or done the job they're supposed to do at the first place? So much corruption around this case, sir. Yeah, but. We won't find out until hopefully, I had an email, I think the start of last week. So there's two still ongoing cases, one under for police corruption, and one for to try and find out the undercover police stuff. So we're part of that collective around the way that the undercover police operators handle themself. And yeah, we're not no further in finding out. And that's 10 years now, that's been, that case has been going on. That's a long time. How was Dwayne? Who was with your brother? Yeah, he's okay. I don't really see him much. But yeah, he's okay. He's a conservative member now and doing his bits and pieces out in the community. Because I imagine it must have been tough for him to then relive in that every day. Yeah, no, definitely. And I think the stigma around Dwayne is, is that he's always the chap that run away. You know, because the incident goes that he saw them come across the roundabout, he heard them shout, what, what, nigger, what? He told Stephen to run and he turned around and Stephen was like, what am I running for? Like, what's going on? Like, I'm not running. I haven't done nothing wrong. And yeah, so it was only when he turned around to see, to realize Stephen wasn't running with him that he went back and picked off Stephen off the floor that then like I said, a hundred meters off the road, he then realized that Stephen had been stabbed. Yeah, that's a shame not to have that. But don't know on him as well. Do you know what I mean to then? But if you're seeing something coming with Naves, then you're thinking run. Yeah. But that just shows you how ballsy Stephen was like standing his ground to five kids, man, does that? Yeah. You're thinking why you're being so strong? Well, no, yes and no. Because again, that's who he was as a, like if he hadn't done nothing wrong, Yeah. Then he just like, well, you're not talking to me. It's not me. That's not me you're referring to. I'm not part of this. I'm not, I don't know what you're talking about. So yeah, but again, it goes back to that whole thing, isn't it? If he did run, then he would be still here today, probably. Like, and that's the crazy thing I say to all the time. It was just, it's a game of chance. Life's a game of chances. So like during the old Bailey trial, we found out the reason why the bus was so long was because a tree had fallen down. There was a massive lightning storm that knocked a tree down, that then delayed all the buses that put all the buses on detour. And he waited, the amount of time that he waited, he could have walked home. And it goes back to the whole sort of thing. So this is before the bus, this is before bus timetables were on bus stops and things. So it's just a game of chance sometimes of a life of, you know, what had happened if he had walked home, what had happened if the tree didn't get knocked down. There's so many finite things that happened to. It's all lefts and buts. But again, we spoke earlier, it's about these are the cars we've been dealt. 100%. Look how much, how many lives that this court case has changed. Look at the system, it's changed, getting else them in there involved, taking it global. That things have changed, but they haven't changed that much because it's still going on in it, which is a sad thing. But just before we finish up, brother, anybody that it's maybe going through some trauma, it's maybe lost a loved one through something as tragic as losing Steven, what advice would you have for them? Again, I say, but grief is bespoke. Grief is so bespoke. And everyone's personal experience through losing someone should be seen as a personal experience. And there's lots of books and there's lots of remedies out there of how to deal with things. And I'm a firm believer that you take each day as it comes. However you're feeling in the moment, you're feeling in the moment. Talking to people is a great one for me. And trying to find yourself around like-minded others that can help you and they can help you talk and to be able to go through what you need to go through and don't ever give yourself a time limit and say, oh, this is going to be over in a year or six months or whatever it may be. Just allow yourself the time that you personally need to be able to move on and to try and live your life, as best you can going forward. What about yourself, brother? What are your plans for the future? Well, yeah, so I see myself as a cup of optimism and hope. You know, I'm trying to do my bit around young people and try to get them to understand that they can be anything they want to be in the best version of themselves. So I wrote a book recently, trying to encourage them, trying to give them some tools around helping them do that. I'm going around to schools, community groups, workplaces to talk about equality, diversity. Again, how people can be the best version of themselves as well, trying to change people's mindsets around different things as well. So I'm doing that. I hope to be doing some more TV, film work as well. I've got a great passion to try and write TV programs, documentaries, I'm telling stories from other sides as well. So I should be getting into some of those in the near future. And yeah, just trying to be the best dad I can be, be the best husband I can be and try and enjoy some of life as well. That's my plan and hopes for the future. You're a good man Stuart. When's your book going to be out and where can people get it? So the book came out first of April, it's at Waterstones, Amazon, independent bookshops. What about links for social media, if anybody wants to reach them, good job opportunities, how can people contact you brother? So on Instagram, it's H-O-N underscore Stuart Lawrence and Twitter, S-A-L, two N-D. And I'm on Snapchat and Twitter and TikTok so just H-O-N underscore Stuart Lawrence on most things. Brother, we're coming on today and telling your story. Listen, I appreciate everything you do. Yeah, brother, we'd be proud of you. And anything I can help for the future, man, just get in touch man and anything I can do like a cell, help brother. Appreciate it. God bless you brother, and I look forward to seeing what you do for the future. Thanks very much, appreciate it. All right, thanks.