 Hello everybody welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. We're here in Brooklyn, New York with Josh Nisley or Nisley? Nisley? Okay, I know it's gotta make sure and get that right. But there's this is a topic that that I've heard about Recently and really piqued my interest. I know it's something you're really interested in as well And that is Jesus as a refugee We don't really think of that we always think of his time of ministry and you know all the miracles and Times with his disciples, whatever, but we tend to forget that they you know He and his family fled to Egypt when he was a small child and lived there for many years Walk us through that explain that a little and then also how does that change our perception of who Jesus is? I think before starting at Jesus you have to sort of step back and go all the way back to Genesis Because one of the things that as I started looking at this The Bible is just full of stories of God caring for displaced people like nearly every single We would consider hero or major figure in the Bible was displaced at one point or other in their life. So like the Classic example is Abraham. You know God said just go like I'm not telling you where just go and and he He packed up and left and he went and God, you know a lot of Genesis is watching God take care of Abraham through that journey, but you know, it doesn't stop there. There's you know, Joseph gets sold as a slave Foreignation, you know, it's it's all this this care for people that end up in places that are new You don't understand the language. You don't know the culture. It's confusing King David, for example You know what spent a good portion of his life on the run from Saul You know hiding in caves and trying not to get killed and then yeah We get to Jesus and then after Jesus, there's like the the apostles the early church, you know Basically spent their life on the run, but but Jesus. Yeah, you know, he has that early fleeing you know into Egypt and just save his life essentially and And then after that, you know, we see all the way through his ministry. He's he's itinerant He has you know, it says I have no place to lay my head. He's always in the run. There's no there's no home base There's no like center of operations. He's just itinerant And yeah, I think that ought to change the way that we look at the bible the way that we once you start seeing the Bible to that lens that lens you there's almost no escaping it almost every story is is filled with this idea and You know, there's no Teaching thou shalt love the refugee in the new testament. There certainly isn't the old But but that idea of God's love God's heart for displaced people. I think is unavoidable That's really interesting. You even have like the children of Israel You know, you had basically an entire people who spent significant portions of their history on the move or in foreign lands Is Syria, you know, Syria Babylon Egypt, so what are the implications? Of that, so this is a thread we see throughout scripture, especially we're thinking in the case of Jesus But what's the implications for our theology? I think one of the things there's this idea Throughout the bible that a relationship with God a relationship with God through Jesus Christ is what ultimately brings Belonging so in the same way that a relationship with God is the only way to true peace A relationship with God is the only way to really find Belonging so there's this idea of look at all these characters that were all over the place But still we're able to find peace and you think of David writing the Psalms able to find peace in the middle of Chaos middle of being displaced. I think that's a one aspect. There's another aspect that's just God really has a heart for people that are displaced You know, you could ask why and the bible doesn't necessarily always answer that question, but it's clear. You look at the text God Cares about those people that are in a special way those people that that are on the run You go through the Old Testament the term that's often translated stranger Effectively means immigrant And so you see repeatedly bring the immigrant into your feasts care for the immigrant Don't take advantage of the immigrant love the immigrant. It's just again and again and again. You can't escape it And wow Yeah, I think that has implications for how we live. Yeah, absolutely. Well very much so So what would be the implications then specifically for Jesus and what his His work on earth was Considering that he started it out as as a displaced person. Well, certainly you can you can carry out ministry to In the middle of displacement I think that's maybe part of it but there's also this idea of Jesus was I think modeling part of of how we're to live and it's not to say that we should all live as displaced people But there is this idea that we we can't find we must not find Or try to find ultimate belonging Here on earth like in the uh in where we live in what we live in, you know in our financial security One of the the constant temptations, I think especially in america. We're so economically Secure is to say this world is my home like i'm setting up shop at this is where I belong And i'm going to make myself secure here. I'm going to make myself comfortable here And the call of the gospel is effectively to be displaced no matter where you are this world Um, I am here. I'm a part of this world, but this is not ultimately where I find belonging This is not ultimately where I find meaning or security So there's this idea that in a sense we are displaced maybe emotionally or psychologically Even if we we you know own a house and live in an area and and see Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. It's like jesus was modeling that for us Yeah, I mean at the same time. He did have a hometown, but there's big chunks of his life when he was on the move and Yeah, yeah, that makes you think about it a little differently, you know, and I think it's it's interesting Anabaptists Started out like the whole movement was started out by people on the run people they lose their home trying to stay alive And there's there's great stories of people Of anabaptists menonites migrating to the new world migrating out of europe out of russia Um Into the us into canada into perigway and how god took care of those people in the midst of that And so we I think we have this sort of this idealized View of us as being the scrappy underdogs But the reality is anabaptists more or less live comfortable solidly middle class stable lives and And the temptation In that context is going to be I want to make myself comfortable. I want to set up shop here This is This is where I make my home. Yeah, that's a real that's a real temptation. It's so easy to do That's the thing, you know, because you want to be secure every every person wants that You know, and it's so easy to want to fall into that framing jesus as a refugee or as a displaced person How does that affect our obedience to his call on our lives? I think there's maybe two aspects one is once you have let go of Your home your community as the as the ultimate place you find belonging it frees you up to to be mobilized either To go overseas as part of sharing the gospel that kind of thing. It allows us to be mobile and I think christians are called to have a global view to consider Sharing the gospel In many different cultures, but I think there's another one And that is just god's call to love the stranger love the immigrant One of the things again, I think that we As conservative and a baptist have allowed conservative politics to push us in is this idea of how do we view People coming into our communities who are not like us how do we view people that have have Grown up somewhere been born somewhere and are and are immigrating are being displaced into our communities starting with the old testament um The whole law the teaching there and jesus example and then we see the early church like through that whole thing It's unavoidable God cares about the immigrant and god says we are we are to love them as one of our own and to bring them in It is one of those things where I think in in current culture We will be swimming against the tide But we've got to do it if we're going to maintain the purity of the gospel Yeah, that that it could radically affect how you live and how you interact with the community around you For sure. That's the last last question I had. Is there anything else you would like to add? I think that the I think that the church Through through the early 20th century or sorry the mid 20th century mid 20th century My my history for the back is fuzzy But I clearly see a trend starting in the mid 20th century with the church pulling political issues And and taking routes of convenience rather than radical calls to the gospel I realize this view may not be popular, but but if we look at king david's life king david I see his life as pre and post basheba, right? So so before basheba things were going well god was blessing him He was following god and after basheba things just went sideways went downhill And this is just my personal opinion. You can argue with me on this one Um, I do have yet to find a credible pushback But it's my belief that the americans church american church's basheba moment was its failure To address segregation and racism in the mid 20th century So that is when the church took a stance and said there's clear teaching that um There is neither june or greek In the eyes of god, there's there's clear teaching that the gospel is for all people But we are going to for political convenience for economic advantage We are going to ignore that almost to a man. I mean there were exceptions, but the exceptions proved the rule We are going to step away from that and we're effectively going to to ignore what the gospel says on this So there was that and there was also divorce and remarriage. It sets up. I think I think that was the church's Bathsheba moment. I think getting back if it ever will will start with going back to that and saying we were wrong And let's set that one right But how that applies here is I see the church starting to do the same thing today with immigration With say with allowing conservative politics to dictate and to trump what the bible clearly teaches about how we treat other people I think there will be There will be heavy Moral and spiritual consequences, you know Part of the reason that that the failure to confront racism was so deadly. I think there are two reasons one is There is something spiritual that happens when a movement says We are going to ignore the gospel teaching that We you can read it's it's unescapable. We're going to ignore that teaching for the sake of expediency So there was something spiritual that happened there that I think led to the decline of the church But also what happened is the church allowed by and large allowed the humanist movement to take the charge on Racism the the church effectively ceded the moral high ground to secularism And so now when when people come and say You know Yeah, you oppose homosexuality, but look you also opposed Desegregation, you know, you you don't like black people. You don't like immigrants. You don't like homosexuals. It's all the same thing It's not the same thing, but because we ceded the moral high ground, you know, 70 years ago It's now a very tough claim to come back and say no, no, no We realize now we were wrong on racism, but somehow homosexuality is different. It is deeply different. It's very different, but because we allowed Humanists effectively to act more in a line with the gospel in this matter I think american christianity will always be On the on its back feet On its heels in relation to morality So I you know part of my heart cry with with immigration right now is we have a similar Moment right now You know we it's instead of african-americans. It's people coming from overseas, but we we have a choice Are we going to love those people and adopt them and radically say I don't care What is you know economically ideal? What is just the way the world works? What is What my conservative neighbors are telling me i'm going to follow the call of the gospel or are we going to to allow you know The conservative political realm dictate how we feel about these things and It's my belief that 50 years from now We will look back on this moment the same way that we're now looking back on racism Like it will be unescapable What was the right decision and the consequences are just as big? I think we've got an opportunity And I think we're in the process of blowing it and so We we've got to I think change the way that we think I think we've had change who we're listening to And say we're going to follow the gospel. Actually bring it back to what scriptures say about this Yeah, yeah, it goes back to What larry hertado says in The story of the god the early church was Radically multicultural multi-ethnic and that that astonished people it astonished people back then and it will astonish people today if we actually pull it off that idea that um, I will adopt people that are different than me because of There's this this spiritual plane that trumps any other differences Um was shocking back then and it's going to be shocking now. Yeah, wow. That's um It is it's a high bar that that's set by god and by scripture But you know at the same time it's something that I think our churches can do It's just a matter of if we are willing to do it. Yeah, the early church did it. It's doable This is not like some platonic ideal that you know, isn't actually doable. It's doable But it's going to take radical change. Wow. That's powerful. That's a it's a lot to think about right there Yeah, wow, I'm really curious what our audience is going to think and and maybe if they have lots of questions We can point them your way. So that's true. Cool. Thank you so much. Josh. It's my pleasure. Yes. This is good