 You're listening to food for thought a food-infolded podcast Today we're going to be discussing the subject of greenwashing and I think that this is a pretty relevant subject And it's been relevant for the last few years. So Sylvie if you want to take it away Thank you. So yeah, I think that today we could explore not only what greenwashing really is Which is very hard to define because yeah, but also we can Maybe try to find together some tools to spot it somehow It's very hard, but between what our audience thinks Because they gave us actually quite quite interesting suggestions and between, you know What we've been doing in our personal lives. Maybe we can we can figure something out Yeah, all right, so Maybe we could start by defining greenwashing and I actually wanted to bring up this definition by the Oxford dictionary because greenwashing was introduced in the Oxford dictionary for the first time in 1999 so quite a long time ago and The Oxford dictionary defines it as this information disseminated by an organization So as to present an environmentally responsible public image Now I think that maybe we should broaden up the discussion and see what we think about this definition If that's what we mean when we talk about greenwashing Jane Do you want to go first? Sure. I mean, I think I don't know if the listener has already heard but I did an IGTV on fair trade in terms of does it really work and Because our audience had asked us well is fair trade greenwashing. They wanted to make sure So there I already defined greenwashing as let me try to remember exactly what I said but the the general concept was that companies or organizations put more time and effort and money into making it appear as if they are doing ethical and environmental progressive actions without actually spending as much time energy or resources on that As much as it comes across So it's more it's quite similar. I think to the Oxford definition where it's the priority of image rather than Action just to come in on that Jane I think the thing for me that's really different there that the Oxford dictionary doesn't capture really is whether or not there's any action or any change tied to Tied to this thing. So so I think there's a big difference personally between something that's just a marketing campaign So, you know, we are good for the environment, but we're not they were not doing anything We're just saying that we're good for the environment versus We've made this change and we're telling you that that change is good for the environment And I think for me those that's a really important distinction to make which your definition includes but the Oxford one actually doesn't Yeah, I think my definition is pretty similar to what you both both guys have been saying But I also think that there's a there's a word that should almost be there, which is delay And I think that one member of our audience actually told us That greenwashing is one of the major things holding us back from transitioning to sustainability And I think that in many cases It is a practice that I have been seeing companies adopting to delay the actual effort So they say that they're doing something and they're doing a few small things to present themselves in a certain way to buy themselves time and This time that they buy themselves We need to figure out whether they're actually, you know using it to implement more radical strategies to become more sustainable or if they're just Trying to get away with it. So I think that's you know, the it is a it is a form of delayed response to the changes that need to happen Or more like maybe delayed responsibility Yes, I think it kind of comes down to our companies Focusing on like the biggest Environmental issue that at the center of what they do or are they focusing on kind of the dressing around the sides? Which is easier to address But doesn't necessarily What you know, the impact of which is very small compared to the main model of business which they operate in Exactly for me kind of the difference there. Yeah, I've probably got a very lay audience some perception of greenwashing I've never actually really bothered to be honest looking up and defining it But that sounds like a very accurate reflection of what I think I'm sort of aligned with you Jane I think I'm I'm on the fence about whether I think it's a Well, I'm not even I'm not even on the fence I do I do think it is more of an image thing So I kind of probably narrow it down to being a disproportionate Representation I think of what is actually being done So if there's a very small bit change that's being made if that is represented in a disproportionate manner to what is actually To what effect that is actually creating then I think to me that is greenwashing So they're saying okay, we're we're making this tiny change and this is We're gonna put this on the front of every one of our products and that change is something that is proportionally doing very little But they're making a lot from it then that to me is Falling within marketing and falling within greenwashing actually Ali. I read a report saying that most companies which Write something on their packaging about the environmental Changes that they're applying to their production actually are inflating their message So they are a little bit sense of it sensationalizing what they're doing. So it's it's almost like you could Greenwashing could also be that you're doing something and you're doing something good but you're just presenting it as much more than it is and You can do it to that to several degrees So I guess, you know, there would be a degree of greenwashing where you're just being slightly inaccurate For marketing purposes, but there could be a degree of greenwashing where you're it's purely Marketing and there's nothing happening as Aaron was also saying earlier. Yeah, it's it's it happens in most times most times Actually, but I think I would like to also clarify because I think The term greenwashing it sounds more that it's like environmentally focused but I think that at least from my perspective it also includes an ethical perspective as well on on communities and Because we've seen in the food industry in the food system that there's been a lot of Inequities and a lot of people being exploited as well So I do think that greenwashing isn't just about green, you know, it's not just about the environment It's also about the the social side of the food system as well Although I will say when it comes to greenwashing. I am personally more Critical of bigger companies that try to do it than smaller companies like I tend to believe Smaller companies or what I perceive to be smaller companies. Maybe they're not actually that small but if they on their packaging have written something a little bit more Eka friendly or socially mindful, you know, I'm more inclined to believe them then let's say some bigger actors and in the food system I think that we all know It's like, yeah, you know, we're trying to save water here. I'm like, okay, but what about this? You know, so I don't know how you guys feel about it, but personally for me I'm just I know I'm more critical when it's a bigger company Yeah, and actually can I bring in a comment from our audience? So one person in the house spotted, but I think it's relevant here said Companies that sell both green and non-green like selling fair trade and non fair trade and I think that that's Something that has to do with the core values of a business. So when you say a small company who is already Sustainability oriented who was born to make things a different way To me also is more trustworthy than a big corporation that has been doing things in a very unsustainable way And then comes out with a with a line of sustainable products And I'm not saying that that's necessarily wrong or that they shouldn't be doing that because everyone needs to start from somewhere But I think that It is more greenwashing than other situations. Yeah, but at the same time like what if because you know My my assumption of this smaller company is that they were born out of maybe a sustainable movement But what if it's actually just this is me being cynical again What if it's actually just a a business? I'm a man or woman who wants to just capitalize off of the sustainability movement That's happening, you know, I go I go to bio shops organic shops If you're in the us or in the us, you know, you have whole foods or sprouts and you see how much more expensive These these green goods are, you know, and I mean, I think again, there's there is a case to be made that Um, we do we should actually be paying more for our products that our products shouldn't actually be this cheap But there's also a question is that is it actually supposed to be that expensive? Or is there kind of a profit? Kind of thing happening there. That's also greenwashing, you know about that We just don't interpret it that way because we assume that it's small and And I think I'm going to be the controversial one here. You comes out in what's going to look like defensive big business Um, which I don't really want to be doing I think I think for example Sylvia going back to that point around companies that produce something that's fair trade and not fair trade I think the problem there is that as long as there's a market for You know the cheaper food or the non fair trade option as long as there are people who don't care how their chocolate is made as long as it's cheap Then someone who stops producing that chocolate will just be replaced by someone else in the same way that You know, there's a market for more sustainable more expensive chocolate So you have companies producing that now as well to fill that niche And so I think I slightly I do I struggle slightly with the idea of blaming Companies for producing things that have having that literally exist because we wanted them to produce those things um, I think I was going to say bottled water here is a really good example, right like um, there are companies that produce bottled water who are you know trying to you know using recyclable plastic and Recycled plastic and using less plastic in their bottled water and there's an argument to say like well, you know Why are you just not producing bottled water? Because that's the problem is you're producing all this plastic for something we don't need But people want to buy bottled water. So like yeah, there's a demand for it There's a demand for it. So you and if without addressing that demand You can never have a like it's impossible to have a fully green plastic bottled water company Absolutely. I think that you know, uh, we tend to represent sometimes these big companies as if they were this sort of conspiracy But actually they have just been providing what we've been asking for for decades. So absolutely I mean they've built their business off of that. There's there's they're huge now because there's such a big demand for it So, yeah, I think that then when you reach a certain point It becomes a lot of different things, but um, but definitely that's how they started and I think that Um, and and we are what keeps them alive for sure by buying their products But at the same time, I think that uh, green washing I we tend to look at things in a very black or white way these days and So even green washing is kind of like we can't look at things like either green or White or whatever like I think that green washing is itself a spectrum and we should identify we should realize that and instead of saying That is green washing. So, uh, I'm not gonna endorse it in any possible way Maybe within levels of green washing we can understand what deserves our attention and our support And I think really the challenge there is is kind of saying like Anything this company says is green washing. That is immediately a problem because for me that approach says You remove all incentive for that massive company to make any positive changes And then if you do that then you're you're taking out a player from the game who can have a huge impact I'm pretty sure taking a gram of plastic off One of each of coca-cola's drinks bottles will have a massive impact coming back to cost as well I think that's another one we probably ignore when we when we buy into those things like a small company And we think oh god, it's it's so expensive. There's also the consideration of like economies of scale, right? these companies are producing A billion of the same product well, then they can certify and sell that product even if it's the same certification probably for a lot less Uh, then a company that's very small and producing it locally and has you know a very small scale, right? So perhaps that's also what you're paying for when you're paying for those small smaller business products Yeah, yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean in my opinion at least I don't think that necessarily means that the bigger products and their Their certifications are are less valuable Yeah, that's the problem isn't it? It's so hard That's the thing. It's like I think as a consumer personally This is this is not me as like editor-in-chief, but me as jane But personally I don't like if I see a brand like from a big company at at a store even if I know that they are trying to make real strides and making you know living income Achievable or if they are you know trying to trying to be more environmentally minded with their ingredients and source it in responsible ways Even so if I still see their logo logo on the back of a package. I'm like I don't really want it. Yeah, like I just I feel like I want to invest my my money in In something that I feel I feel and I don't even know 100 right, but something that I feel is Is guaranteed to not be greenwashing But I do understand how that's actually not fair and that doesn't actually help Change the system and in the sense of investment right because I think that as a consumer What I'm doing is I'm investing my money when I'm paying for something I'm saying I'm investing in your company to do better right or In this case, I mean, I know most people don't shop that way But I think that we need to start thinking in that way because our money does actually have an impact in driving that demand Which actually does drive company practices But I don't know I do think that I'm a bit conflicted as well because I do know that there are companies that you know, they get Like they really, you know, take take a brutal brutal beating in the public public eye No matter what they do no matter what they do they will be perceived as no, you're not doing enough You know, oh, you're just greenwashing, but it's okay. Then at what point will we kind of be accepting of? Them actually trying to to make a difference, you know, yeah So maybe here we could go a little bit because I think So maybe this is the right time to to go to the how to spot it because we've been talking about Our perceptions of it, but maybe there are a few things that we can look at in order to To spot the worst cases of greenwashing. So Shall we start from a few? Comments from our public. Yes from our audience. What did our audience say? So well first thing someone said I wouldn't really know what red flags to look for Yep, I am in the same boat Agreed. Yeah. Yeah Then let's see and this other person said even with a master's degree and working as a sustainability analyst It's very hard sometimes. So Definitely. All right. So now let's see This is a very good one because it says using the words green sustainable or environmentally friendly on packages and in ads and this is something that I have definitely been paying attention to because One thing is to So one thing to define Greenwashing is just by saying that it's empty claims, right? There's marketing claims that are actually just they're impossible to verify So for me, it's very important that when I'm trying to buy sustainably I can verify Whether they are actually doing something and the way to verify it for example is to buy specific Certified products that you know are being regulated and checked by independent third-party sources But if if a product has on its label environmentally sustainable, what can you check about that? Who is going to check anything? And I think a really key part of that sylvia That's a really interesting point is is kind of the specificity of the claim, right? So so it's impossible to legally enforce This is an environmentally friendly product because there's no definition for that But if if a company writes on its product, you know We are paying Farmers in these areas 25 percent more than the national average for those farmers in that area You can check that you can check that fact and obviously you may not be able to check that factor to consumer and you may not have time to and that's fine, but the point is that That would be illegal for them to be lying about in a way that this product is environmentally friendly isn't So I think the more rewarding specific information that actually tells you because also that gives you a lot more information about How much of a difference that thing is making not just it's making an arbitrary unknown quantity difference Exactly. What do you guys think? I'm a bit I'm also a bit conflicted about this because On one hand, for example, I know that a lot of big companies have annual reports But then the question is what can you can you rely on those reports? You know, but even even legislation. So I know that policy right now It's a bit difficult because they don't actually require companies to report on this. This is actually more of a Like a like a voluntary thing. Yeah, exactly. It's a voluntary thing And I think for the companies that do actually do the reporting I mean, they're they're spending so much time writing up a report that how many how many consumers will really read that report You know, so for me, but I also don't know like are they doing it? Because they know that it'll look good if just in case somebody does look it up Yeah, so this is also still cynicism on my part Whereas you could kind of look at it both ways, right? You could either look at it in that cynical way or you could look at it as they're actually trying to be responsible And they're not saying that their their system is perfect, you know, but at the same time Oh, no, I'll just finish up with that some of these reports that I've read are still framed in a positive way like I realized that companies never Really report on the negative side of things or if they do they always frame it in a positive Way that doesn't make them look too bad And for me, I do think that that's kind of if we're looking at the spectrum of greenwashing That's still a little bit on the greenwashing side, you know, it's like I feel like companies are so afraid to say when they've messed up But I actually think that as a consumer I would respect them more if they acknowledge that look We aren't perfect, but we're trying to get somewhere, you know And I've seen companies do that and they have massive respect for me And it doesn't actually lose me as a as a customer at all, but Yeah, so just my two cents. Yeah So Jay, I was gonna so first thing I was just going to quickly say to your first point was um That there's kind of obviously you talked about investing your money as a consumer when you buy a product But there's also could be there can be greenwashing going on at the kind of investor level in terms of the actual investment in the company directly So a report on slavery might be, you know Potentially geared at getting onto a sustainable investing list that means more people put money into that company So there's that kind of angle to think about it as well Oh, and then I was just gonna just I'll hand over to you. It's sexy. I'll be I was just gonna quickly say I think you're completely right about The value of companies actually engaging with The problems that they have and owning up to those things and talking getting a chance to talk about them on their terms to say Yes, this is a problem These are the reasons and the challenges of why we haven't solved this problem yet And these are the things we're trying to do about that and I think we're we're a we're a mature enough Group of consumers now There is a mature enough group of consumers to really engage with that and I think That's something I'd love to see more of as well I'm sorry Shabeh Yeah, so no about your your comment on investments and greenwashing. That's huge and the EU In june 2020. So less than a year ago has actually approved a new Neuregulations on how to define greenwashing for investors. So maybe this is a bit interesting So the new legislation lays down six environmental objectives If you with your company Are contributing to mitigating to reaching some of these objectives And while doing so, you're not harming any of the other objectives Then you can be considered environmentally sustainable. I'll read you out the six objectives climate change mitigation climate change adaptation sustainable use and protection of water and marine resources transition to a circular economy pollution prevention and control protection and restoration of biodiversity and ecosystems The reason why this is good is that until last year insurance companies like pension funds could choose Any investment saying that this was a green investment just based on what they thought Was a green investment whereas now we have the EU Setting out regulation to say look you can't say that anything is green like I think that Definition set from the EU is is a massive step forward and really really helpful But it's always the same challenge right of like it kind of kicks the problem of definition a bit down the road Because my first question was going to be what does not contributing to climate change mean like exactly mean You have to be climbed. You have to be carbon neutral. Otherwise, you're not on this list What about certification programs or this it gets so complicated? Absolutely, it's so hard to define but this this shows How much people could just like say anything right like if this is still a very broad definition It means that you need to be at least doing something and maybe people were considering something green when when the company was actually doing nothing Yeah, I'm totally with you and I think that I think that's kind of Vague in my opinion. I don't I don't think that really defines that much. I don't think that really helps I can assume actually understand what they're investing in or and invest it understand what they're investing in and I don't really think that This is just pure personal opinion. I don't know if this is founded or not But from what I hear it doesn't sound like that's stopping people from From greenwashing their investments at all like it just sounds like you just have to tick one box Now it's just a defined box, you know, but it still is a vague box From which I assume the definitions are Are fairly loose given their very big topics, you know climate change is a very very broad topic to be to be ticking Yeah, absolutely climate change isn't even a topic. It's just everything But this is just in the EU right like I think my problem is that so many big companies are international and What I see is that okay, they might be more responsible for example in in What we can say western countries or higher income countries But I've had conversations with friends who even small businesses when they migrate to another country and open up something there They cut corners, you know, so for me It's I think that this is one step towards the right direction because you want to hold You have to have some kind of accountability, but I would like to see something on a more international scale actually Definitely and that that companies. I mean, I also understand companies are huge, you know, they're not they have like different What do they call them? Yeah, divisions. Yeah divisions or I was going to say franchises, but that's not But it kind of I don't know. I don't know it kind of is but sometimes they're so detached from what's happening there That they don't they actually don't know what's going on But I do feel that as a as a company that is part of your responsibility um, and again, it comes back down to owning up to that like, okay, you know what Logistically speaking, maybe you you you might not understand how how our company works and how we branch out and how we have extensions But they're still under our name. They're still operating under our name So we accept that responsibility and here's what we're actually going to try to do about it Um, but I would love to see I don't know I know that germany has actually a new supply chain law and we have an article on that coming out by our contributor, uh, kati So that'll be interesting But there it's from my understanding. It's that germany is trying to hold all it's uh, like not all but the company's Responsible for its entire supply chain So even for the aspects that aren't just here in europe but even if you know something is Is uh made in I don't know Bangladesh or made in china, for example that they are still responsible for it And it's amazing to have a law like that But of course the issue with a law like that is always going to be enforcement, isn't it for sure. Um, yeah I mean, I guess I think I as a consumer So if we're going back to kind of the labels and the certifications, right? I will say that there are some certifications that I do trust and I I will say that it's because I've actually done research about them And I won't I won't come and claim and say I've looked at all the certification labels out there because there's just so many of them But the biggest ones for me like fair trade I I I actually do trust um because I was very pleasantly surprised after I wrote my article and found that it actually works Like and it's not a hundred percent effective, you know, like I don't think any certification system Can guarantee a hundred percent because again the system is so big and interconnected and so many aspects of it And traceability is already a huge issue in the food system So there is not a hundred percent guarantee But what I can see is that in the model that they have they're really making strides forward, right? And so that's just one certification label But I do think that as a consumer it also is our responsibility to look it up Like I will admit that okay I see utz or I see rainforest alliance and you assume that that's good, you know Like you assume that that's like helpful in some shape or form, but do I actually know? No, you know, and I do think that it's up to us to actually look look things up But at the same time, I don't actually think Even the most conscious consumers they don't always do that or let's say we don't always do that It's it's just so much work, you know, and I don't know I would love to hear if our audience would be interested in like Hearing us deep dive into different labels and you know interviewing people from the labels interviewing Maybe people that are critical of these labels as well Because I do think that this is very important for us as consumers to know And like a very easy accessible place. I don't know. There's just so many things going on at the supermarket. So Yeah, I think that the problem with labels I mean, there are a few problems with labels in that some labels tend to operate as you know their their business model could skew a little bit their Objectivity in certain cases and the other of course issue big issue is the auditing issue with So not enough transparency because the only way you can guarantee something is by verifying it a few times By independent third party as well. Yeah, yes, absolutely But then, you know, sometimes the auditing is so these checks are are announced in advance Which means that certain You know, certain companies producers could Hide them out practice in advance or something like that But even even if it wasn't announced and you found a certain situation You couldn't guarantee that that's what happens 100 of the time. So that's another problem But I think that that's that problem specifically could be solved potentially Thanks to more more transparency more controls the imposition maybe of of certain ways of technologically track stuff so cameras GPS now we're thinking about oh, man. I know but at the same time it's a little bit like big brother as well You know like 1984 I think that I hate to be on the side of people trying to get these sustainability labels But I I I can sympathize with the fact that I think we are an incredibly tough crowd Like we're not not even just a discerning consumer I think trying to actually get one emblem that gets on a label If we're talking about if we're just talking about say food labels If we're trying to get one emblem on a label that people can immediately look at and associate with a certain A certain certification that is guaranteed proven triple checked kind of thing You are fighting against a flood of a hundred other labels that are sticking things on So it I I do sympathize with the fact that whether they are People doing the right thing or wrong thing There are going to be people taking advantage of that I think there will be people taking advantage of the confusion, you know Like people will be pushing those uh those worse labels or less verified labels because it's easy They know that it's easy to confuse consumers. We're all confused but I can go on I consider myself as someone that's very discerning with seafood especially And I can look at a account of fish and I will I promise you I will know 50% of the labels on there And I probably won't check what the other ones are. I actually just I just will not I might not believe them But I just look at them all and I just think well There's just too much like there's I don't think anyone has the the energy to do that with every product Yeah, I think it's a really great point on and I kind of don't It's frustrating because in some ways I don't think as consumers we shouldn't need to be fighting You know Basically dishonesty from big companies who are trying to Like you said take advantage of confusion or like use misinformation in order to boost the bottom line For me, I think like the the thing that I'm hearing from all of us is that really we want to promote What we want is a world where companies are actually open and transparent and quite honest about What they're doing and the problems they're facing and not just virtue signaling and using stuff to their advantage The challenge is how do we encourage that world when Companies want to make money Yeah, I think it's a bit idealistic of us right like I think we are a very niche group of people And I think that's quite hard to believe especially if we're surrounded by people who are conscious about what they consume And even our audience the majority of them are quite conscious, you know, but we're just a very minor group in a sea of consumers and The thing is is that for me It's a bit idealistic for us to to want companies to want to have a positive impact You know like but if you think about the world of business the world of businesses On its foundation is about generating a profit making making strides for yourself, right? So for us to kind of expect all businesses to want to have a positive impact comes from our values But at the same time, I do think that these are values that are good to strive towards And in a way, I would hope that businesses are in line with those values because no one wants to buy Anything that's that had like child exploitation, you know, no one wants to buy something that that's killing Dolphins, let's say like that's usually the biggest thing that people, you know, like to show but I I do I do also think that By working with, you know, bigger companies who supply a lot of these food products to people that aren't in our group They're the ones that actually create a systematic change so that there is actually a larger impact beyond just the niche group of conscious consumers I think that it's it's a very good point the one about values and I think that You know, you can see you can try to solve the problem by adding more CCTV cameras and that's the little patch on the issue that doesn't really solve the problem from within And then there's the there's the bigger, you know picture, which is kind of changing incentives and Changing what we really value in society. So maybe what we value is not any more growth Maybe it's a sustainable kind of growth within certain limits. And that's what gets What becomes most valued in society and what everyone starts to strive towards But I think that it it definitely is a problem that is not limited to greenwashing not limited to the food industry It's it's such a big problem at a bigger scale That will require very significant Quality change in the way that we look at at life and and society and what yeah I mean, it was just funny because I think that, you know, we've heard in in the last maybe few years It's kind of this battle on on capitalism Um, and I think it's it's really interesting. Um, and I I would say that I was kind of more in that boat as well But I've also seen how capitalism can also change things for the better. You know, um So I feel that we have a broken system But for me, it's personally it's not about tear like completely abolishing that system It's working with what it already is because our systems are so so complicated so complex We have so many different aspects. Um that are are part of it that we don't see, you know, and I think that just completely saying, all right, let's tear the system down and Create something from nothing, you know, that's that's very very difficult to do. Maybe there's something to that you know, but I So I Want to bring up this like, uh, I don't know anything about economics Not much. So I am totally ignorant. So I I really want to hear what iron thinks about this, but I've heard about this theory by caterer worth. I think from oxford Which is the donut theory. I think we talked about this too. Yeah So you can't go beyond a certain level of growth. You can't go Below that or something like that iron. Maybe you will be able to explain it better But it could be a way to look at things that isn't is new Yeah, absolutely. And I think to be honest, I think ollie nailed it with one word Which is governments and I think this level of regulation has to come from a government level but the and governments need to be less obsessed with Maximum growth all of the time forever because they're just it just can't work. It's completely unsustainable as a model and For me, I think that to come to your point jane about capitalism Absolutely like capitalism has lifted huge numbers of people out of poverty given us so much innovation And the thing I always think is You look at how great an incentive making money is like people will do all sorts of insane stuff to make money These companies are you know doing things that probably keep them up at night in order to make more money Well, what if we can turn that incentive into something that drives them to do good? You know, you say, you know, you start putting in things like carbon Caps and and credits in order to tax companies who are over-polluting Suddenly you're saying you're going to lose all of your money if you don't do something about this pollution problem They're going to do something about it And actually the thing you have to sacrifice there is that in the short term you'll have less growth because you're not Expensing everything in the planet in order for more growth. And so for me those the specifics of those regulations are incredibly complicated and incredibly difficult and Specific to every industry But ultimately at the root of all of it is exactly what sylvia is saying like governments need to change What is ideal and ideal needs to be growth within these limits But actually too much growth is just as bad as too little That's that's the change that needs to happen psychologically. I think but you know What's so funny is that now that like me being in this position I've worked with different actors in different parts of the food system or there's people from government There's companies. There's startups. There's ngo's. There's you know consumers and everybody is passing off the responsibility to the other The government thinks that it's up to companies the companies think that well we have to hear from the consumers if that's what they want and it's like We it's so clear like everybody in government everybody in in business They're all consumers too. What do you want as a consumer? What do you want as an individual for this world? Right and I think that okay for some people it is about making money It is about making profit and that's that's fine. You know, I think that we all grow up with different values, but making profits should not be It doesn't have to just be about making profit you can have profit But you can also have equality and justice in the in the work that you do I don't know that they necessarily go hand in hand without incentives I think that incentives need to need to be there for that. Yeah That's my idealism right like looking look in your heart Yeah, I think it's idealistic, but I think that there are levels as Anne says there are levels to growth, right? Like it's it's just that's actually just smart business Like you're gonna have to look at that from a like a pragmatic perspective there. You can only grow so much and if If if you it depends how essentially depends how greedy you want to be right? Like if you want to just make this purely about profit and you want to grow Until you're absolutely enormous and everything is out of your control as that operator of that business Well, you can try and do that But of course you're going to end up shooting yourselves in the feet later down the down later down the line, but There's nothing to say that you can't scale your business So you're making a profit, but you're also doing the right thing But that profit has somewhat of a ceiling, you know, you're not constantly evolving You're not constantly going further and further and further There are like there is I think a threshold where A lot of people now are actually happily sitting in that threshold, especially small businesses where they're saying look We're willing to work on our ideals and we're going to prioritize them above making a lot of profit We still want to make profit. It's a business But we don't need to make an excessive amount of profit where that is the only objective And I think that I think I've seen a lot of shift in that like a lot more small businesses are shifting towards that Sort of a model and that's kind of the birth of the social enterprise really isn't it to say Yes, we're profit making But we're doing it with a vision and we're not willing to sacrifice that vision for more profit And it's that value attachment. That's really key. Yeah, I totally agree. Hello Going back to how to spot screenwashing someone wrote anything related to ecology on animal based products is hypoxia Hypocrisy So so basically it's a You you should just buy plant-based is what it's saying. Yes and I do have some concerns about that because Actually the problem right now, so they're right in saying that right now it's impossible to tell Which animal product is more sustainable or not unless you know exactly on your own The the whole you can trace on your own the product if it comes from a specific farm Yeah, if it comes to your own from your own farm that and I think that at the moment It's impossible to tell that but it's not true that it wouldn't be possible to tell that because Poor and Nemechek have published this huge seminal paper in 2018 in science Where they identified high and low impact producers of of animal products and They realized something like One fourth of the beef industry is responsible for more than half Of all the environmental damage linked to the sector So they they were saying that if we halved our meat consumption And we only source from low impact producers then we would reach very high percentages of of sustainability similar not not as much as a vegan diet But we could reach up to 70 of the ecological benefits of a vegan diet in certain circumstances So Yes, I think that at the moment it's really hard to tell Whether something is produced more or less sustainably in terms of animal products But one day with increased transparency and You know a system to to to categorize that we might have like green or yellow or red labels That don't even come from the company, but they come from a higher level of you know from an independent third party Checking or Something like that that couldn't be able to tell us that But I also think that this comes back down to the supply chain I think that in this case at grocery stores all the meat that you see it's actually probably not from one farm It's from a collection of farmers and it's sold to a supplier who then sells it and you know There's all these parts of the supply chain So I I do think that yes, there is a case for low impact meat production But then I do also think that then that's on the suppliers to supply it from Low impact meat producers So what you're saying jane is as a consumer is at the moment you don't even Even if that data existed and the label existed as a consumer you still wouldn't have a choice because It would be one low impact chicken breast and three high impact chicken breast in the same packet Exactly It looks like that's pointing us in the direction of Categorizing food groups rather than specific products as a means to actually be sure about your impact I think in terms of data, I think that's where we're at right now. Yeah Yeah, I would say for me. I think that probably won't if you take meat as an example that probably won't change until Demand for me is lower and the price of meat is higher and therefore there's more incentive to Do it in a more bespoke and differentiated way for individual products rather than producing the stuff in bulk I think but also but also there's still a huge difference between what you can find in a supermarket and what you can find from a butcher For example, because from a butcher the supply chain might be much shorter Which means that it might be much more traceable than the supply chain of a huge supermarket chain There's no like intermediate people because that's the problem, right? Like you have supplier going to supplier going to supplier who then goes to the farmer Whereas in this case there's a direct relationship between the farmer and the supplier everything that is produced is Sold by that supplier is produced by that farmer. It's very easy to trace that So I think maybe my question was is that assumption because I'm just think I mean, I don't know This is really just a question a very general question because I don't know well because I don't eat meat, you know I don't know if butchers Actually don't buy it from a supplier who doesn't actually know who he's also supplying from but just knows that it's quality meat You know, I I don't personally massively depends on the individual butcher I think you've got everything from You know An artisanal bespoke has you could even be the farmer that is the butcher might be a farm shop You know, it could even be a smaller chain But on the same side you like, you know Tesco's has a butcher's counter and they're not operating like that and a lot of butchers will be operating on that same model of Getting meat from whichever supplier makes the most sense and not prioritizing that traceability. So again, it's a case by case basis, I think but this Helps enough to compute that Argument that anything said about sustainability related to animal products Is false. That's not true. I will say though If i'm putting myself in the mind of the person who wrote that I mean, this is also an assumption if i'm wrong Please feel free to direct message us But I think the idea is that if i'm a consumer and I do want to lower my environmental footprint The best way possible is actually to to avoid or limit your animal based product Intake right so I think when we're talking about greenwashing as a concept. Yeah, we're also talking about labels But I think that as a consumer Why do we care about greenwashing? We care about greenwashing because we don't want to buy products that aren't What we think is sustainable, right? We want to buy actual sustainable products that are consciously produced that are well sourced and I think that from that mindset. I can understand why this person maybe wrote that, you know Absolutely. I just might I just think that these are kind of separate topics though And I think that it's very easy to just put everything in the Yeah, and just be like, yeah everything's green. What like, you know, I mean, I I totally understand I think I was just clarifying because I think I think we're also talking about greenwashing in a very like almost slightly philosophical way You know a slightly abstract way, but I think to remember why people care about greenwashing And that intention behind it. I think in the end The the choice is because we want to make the best sustainable choice possible, right? Yeah I think the other part of that is, you know, what you're saying about, you know As a consumer if what you want is to make change then you need to limit your meat intake Not, you know, look for a more sustainable beef steak, perhaps then I think there's also that point of like We as consumers need to be careful about doing our own greenwashing about our own lives and what we choose to do So, you know, are you switching from cow's milk to almond milk? And therefore Having this really warm fuzzy feeling, but you don't necessarily know if that's the most sustainable solution and it's more about It's more about the the signals that that can send perhaps even just to yourself Perhaps not to other people, but I think we also need to hold ourselves accountable to Are we making the best possible changes that we can make in our choices and By saying why is my you know, why is my meat not produced more sustainably? Are we just avoiding the issue of well, perhaps I shouldn't be buying anything in the first place? Absolutely It's like, oh, you know, I'm rejecting the plastic straw at the pub But then I eat like meat three times a week or something. All right. All right. Drive a drive a four by four Two minutes down the road to go to the shop Yeah, exactly. But um, I have one last point that I would like to touch about greenwashing actually Which is the difference between in-house certifications and independent certifications and I tend to trust less in-house in-house certifications because it's like, yeah, I'm just Doing it all myself. I'm just Saying that this is sustainable and you can trust me for that and I think it's amazing to to still have Something like that because it increases accountability. I can come to you and say now I want you to show me that that that's what you said because you made very specific statements And that's what we were talking about earlier with with our and too, but I think that um If I had to choose between In-house and independent, I would probably trust more independent Because of the process because the process is more is more trustworthy to me. I've got I've got a I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a cat amongst the pigeons here I actually think that uh, I don't know. I don't really know what to think about I think it really depends on uh, depends on what kind of third party you're actually looking at because I've I've actually experienced The better I've experienced both sides there were there's been internal reporting And I know the internal reporting has been really really good And I've uh, I've worked with people where I know that there's been external reporting and the reporting has been Completely completely, uh, ineffective like they've I won't name where or when this was but there was a like a muscle farm for example And they had a third party auditor associated with the government There was supposed to be a very thorough audit And they would go to check for a certain Bacteria in these muscles so they could be sold if they had them then they had to be held and they weren't allowed to be sold And they have farms inland and they had farms out at sea where they would grow their their babies essentially and um when the third party audits would come through they would just say look send us send us a bag of your Product and we'll do the testing. You know like we do the testing. Yeah, they do the test So there's a there's a big difference, you know, you do the testing Versus you are you are actually coming and just doing like a spot drug test kind of thing where they're like, okay Quickly now give me what you got right in front of you instead of it being like, okay Give us a sample of your product and we'll do the third party auditing. It's I think it I hate this because it it makes us skeptical of absolutely everything But it is it very much depends and I think this definitely matters depending on where you're looking at those Certifications around the world because I will definitely differ depending on the region and how they certify. Absolutely And yeah, that's the problem with auditing. It's it is the problem. Yeah Can't cut corners. But I do think that for in-house labels There is something to it because I did I spoke with somebody from fair trade about this I was like, oh, what do you think about this? And it was a pleasant surprise because he was saying, you know, what if they're actually doing something? I'm all for it. You know the the the aim of the game for the certification is just Like it wasn't just to certify this was actually to make a difference Um in the system and if there's another system in place that's actually Doing the right thing then great and I do think that I'm not saying that this is you know 100 full proof in-house labels there there is still critique to be done Maybe they should introduce a third-party auditor, you know Um, but I do think it's commendable to at least set aside budget from your profit To actually start a program like that, you know or start an initiative like that I think the the commitment the level of the commitment we would kind of have to you to to be wary of Um, but I think that's a start and I think that maybe for me as a consumer Maybe I actually would rather not see that label on a product Like it would say so much more to me that they're actually doing something without actually putting it on as a label But I also understand as a company you want to show Um your customers that you are trying to make a difference, right? And I do think that sometimes that's that could be another reason why companies put on these labels Um, not necessarily always for greenwashing purposes. Yeah, I think I think Yeah, we tend to assume that it's always the opposite, isn't it that like they're gonna inflate Uh, and and say something that is more than what they're doing and To be honest, I think again it goes back to incentives like we need to ask ourselves like why would this company be doing this thing in this way and Um, there are I I think that we can assume sometimes safely that they are changing things for real Since they're realizing that more and more people are becoming aware of the issues So I think that by making ourselves more and more informed about this and using our Our what do you say purchasing power? I think we can incentivize Companies to do better, but it can't just come from us It needs to come from us and then it needs to come from governments at the same time and it needs to be And the people within the company themselves, you know, I think that we tend to we tend to say company And we tend to say they as if it's like this huge big thing, but it's also made of people Right, so I think that the people within the company also have to see and try to push for that real change as well um So, yeah, I mean I'm For me, I am I am hopeful that change is possible. Otherwise, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing at food 100% So there's like a few it sounds like we've kind of narrowed it down to a few things So it's sort of select being very selective of the source of the foods that you're buying Uh if we're talking strictly about foods Maybe generalizing food groups rather than certain products because you can't necessarily be sure about transparency between them and uh Yeah, I guess direct if you want to do things like uh or eat foods that are worse And you know that they're worse than I guess direct trade or yeah Something something similar is probably a best your best option if you want to be certain about where it's coming from And green washing is a spectrum So of course there might be a little bit of green washing sometimes even when a company is doing something and I think we shouldn't necessarily Um, you know brush it off and just say that they're all doing bad stuff I think that we need to look for specific things that companies are doing if we can verify their claims Um, this is an important tip. I think It's okay for us to celebrate um and like be happy about positive changes that happen And I think even to some degree if there is some green washing going on if it if it's mild if it's you know Yes, marketing claims with absolutely no basis behind them deserve to be criticizing condemned And I think that's really important But at the same time if a company has done something positive I think the thing that Sometimes it gets me quite down is a company will make a change that is Absolutely a positive change It's better to have done it than not and they'll just come under fire for not having done enough Or why have you not done this other thing that I wanted you to do And and and those all may be completely valid points and they're completely valid to make but I think We could we would all benefit from just prefacing that with well. I'm really happy that this change has been made In a yes no situation. I'm really glad you made that change But what about this there are more that needs to be done. It's not enough. That's fine But I think for our sake for our own kind of Our own mental state when it comes to the state of our food system as well as supporting companies I think it's fine to celebrate some of those changes as well Indeed It's good to feel that we're all going in the right direction or that we're all trying to go into the right right direction And eventually and all kind of be supporting each other rather than fighting each other every step of the way Yeah And so on that point what I would be interested in hearing from our audience is What would be acceptable for you? What would be the line of greenwashing versus actual change for you? Let us know let us know what you think and yeah, you can find us online at www.foodandfolded.com on instagram at food unfolded and also here on our youtube channel So stay tuned for the next editor's table. We actually talk about food habits So kind of a correlation to to this episode, but yeah Bye