 Repentant Boko Haram members are Nigerians and the federal government has the responsibility to integrate them, says Minister of Police Affairs Naigari Dingyadi, plus PDP governors urge National Assembly to rescue Nigeria's democracy. This is plus politics and Diya Mary Ann O'Connor. The Minister of Police Affairs Naigari Dingyadi says repentant bandits are Nigerian citizens and the federal government has a responsibility to reintegrate them peacefully and honorably into society. He also said the window is still open for bandits to surrender to the government and be reintegrated into the wider society. Well joining us to debunk this and break it down is political technocrat, Daya Kayadi and security expert Dennis Amakri. Thank you very much Mr. Amakri for joining us. Yeah we've used thank you for having me. Thank you for joining. So we've had conversations around you know repentant Boko Haram members. I think we talked about it when they initially surrendered and one returned with the one of the Chibok girls. So the first question is what's the guarantee that these so-called repentant terrorists are really repentance? I think from what the minister said the first question would even be whether the Nigerians did. You know because we don't know for him to say that you know they could be giving amnesty or forgiveness because they are Nigerians I think it's too hasty. You know so I think it's very very important that you profile these guys, screen them properly and then of course you may want to look at the kinds of crimes they committed and in the crimes we are in homicide killing people I think they should not just be giving forgiveness. There should be consequences because you can't just go and kill people and come back and say oh you've repented and then you're free. Then we better open all the prisons the correctional facilities and ask everybody to leave because if they have repented. Well but but then again this this this man seems to be very certain because he did not say maybe he did not say could be. He was very certain when he said are Nigerians meaning that maybe he does have information that she do not have access to Mr. Makri. Again it could also mean that maybe they've done some feasibility studies and they've realized that this is the only way they can win the war against banditry and maybe Boko Haram. With all due respect I think I disagree with the minister because it is already in the public domain where people even the governor of Bauchi to be very specific had said that these bandits are not Nigerians they came in from somewhere in the Sahel in West Africa to Nigeria. So for the minister to say that they are Nigerians I think I disagree with him. But well as it is the most important way to find out is to screen them. Screen them find out who they are where they come from. I don't think anything will lost anything by doing it like that. We're being joined by Dayo Kayode. He's a political technocrat. Thank you very much for joining us Mr. Kayode. My next question is for you. What qualifies any terrorists for amnesty especially the case of these bandits? What qualifies them for amnesty and some form of reintegration into society? I don't think he can hear me so I'm going to throw the question back to Mr. Makri. For a security person you obviously would know what should and what will qualify any person who has been categorized as a terrorist whether it's Banditri or Boko Haram what should qualify that person for amnesty? The experience in Nigeria before when we have the Niger Delta situation and when the Niger Delta situation came around we find out that these group of people although some people might even call them terrorists because some of their actions we are terrorizing the society although they say they are freedom fighters but again before the Nigerian government decided to give them amnesty there was dialogue there was talk between them. You know they have a demand and that demand was very serious that it was depleting the number of barrels of oil that we were spotting per day you know coming down from 2.5 million barrels a day to 600,000 so the government felt that let's talk to these guys maybe they have something to say and of course there was an agreement before amnesty was granted but these are guys who go around burning churches, burning mosques, ripping down villages, killing people anyhow with no particular objective and then of course we have to learn from Zafara state governor he gave amnesty to some of them they even collected money from vehicles from him and then of course what happened they went back and started continue what they were doing again so we cannot say that you know this set of people that come and you put out your gun raise your hand and then of course will forgive you except the Nigerian government is trying to not you know be serious about this right I want to quote the police minister directly he said of course they are criminals just as you have said they have committed atrocities they have committed crimes but according to international laws when you surrender from a war you are not killed you are not maimed you are allowed to have your say and he said we're listening to them to see how we can integrate them into the larger society he went on to say we are trying to do this to get them settled in their various communities so let them have the kind of means of livelihood so that they can integrate peacefully and honorably into society into society I do not see anywhere here where the crimes that they've committed will be addressed I do not see anywhere here where he's saying we would make sure that because I'm saying this as a result of the fact that soldiers have also fallen in you know the line of battle they're victims of these terrorists in society that same society that they want them to be reintegrated to and of course the people that they want them to come back into society to live with might not feel safe around them so I don't really know if our security agencies have thought this through and this is a police minister talking is has there been a conversation also with others including the dss including homeland and the you know the military because all grounds I guess should be covered shouldn't it yes definitely so all grounds must be covered I don't believe that they've you know talked to the dss or even the military because the military has lost a lot of fine officers and these guys have been killed even their families are still grieving and then you bring out these people and say you know we give you amnesty you know I I strongly believe that there is a gap something has to cover that gap and that gap will be profiling them finding out who they be who they are and then of course knowing which ones have committed crimes remember in international politics that the minister was international order the minister was referring to if you commit war against humanity you know the international court of justice will definitely look at you and so many people including presidents have appeared before that court and are found guilty you know so it is not a matter of just somebody dropping his arms and coming in to say that oh he has surrendered there you give him amnesty you know even the united states some of the people that are surrendered to the united states during the afghanistan war some of the talibans are still in guantanamo bay you know there are still about 40 of them are still locked up there while they are screening them to find out whether they are fit to be released in society or they will be serving their jail terms so to say because where they are is more or less like a jail so I think we should not be too hasty in letting this people out in society because they will go out there and then we will sit back and regret that we've allowed this people to come and hurt us again I think I'm curious because the avid nigerian is sitting and watching basically not necessarily having a say in all of this because it looks like the government or police politicians are the ones who are deciding and taking you know these stands like you said the police chief you think maybe has not liaised with other security chiefs but if these things have not been clearly thought out why is it making news why are people speaking on issues of national security the way it is being done and unfortunately whether we like it or not once a person grants a press conference it becomes news we as the media we have to report it but if there is no communication or information control within the ranks of government how do we even start winning this war I know that you're not a politician but you can help me answer this I am not a politician far from it and you know like I we've discussed this before you know they are the the management of information I think is very very poor in government today because we should have a focal point of somebody who is supposed to make statements when it comes to issues of security I think the national security advice I should say something or the minister of defense not the minister of police affairs you know the minister of police affairs should be telling us about internal security and what police can do I'll tell you what the national security advisor has said lately he has told ipop that they should stay clear of the unanswered elections is that the most important thing that the nsa should be discussing right now well it concerns national security it concerns national security because well when you are trying to stop the political process you know it's concerns national security so well it's in place for him to tell them to stay away with the agitating for their own independence or whatever I think there are other channels and I think a lot of people in the southeast agree to this that there should be other channels than disrupting or violence it's not just the answer interesting now there was a UN report I remember I think he came out in august about the SUHU a secret program to somewhat Leo Boko Haram top leaders to surrender and to break ranks this this according to investigators their major concern just like you and I have this concern is how to ascertain whether these people are surrendering genuinely or they're being called coarsed to surrender because of certain things that government is offering now none of us could have even known about this secret agenda of luring these Boko Haram leaders if not that the UN put out this report so again it looks like the moves that our government are making or maybe the leaders and our politicians are making might not necessarily be in the best interest of Nigerians so I ask again who are they consulting well they don't have to consult any international body to take decisions about this if I know that the military has been carrying out a lot of psychological operations you know in the north east and even in the northwest because these are you know a fight for the hearts and minds of the insurgents or terrorists whereby some of them will just be just like they were recruited be converted to turn around and come back to the other side beautiful it doesn't take one day to radicalize a terrorist why do they do thus the army or the Nigerian government think that it would take a snap of a finger to re deradicalize a terrorist it is not it is not a snap of a finger because the psychological operations that we're carrying out has been for long for years actually for years and then of course when the the the military start to put the stops on them like food the supply chain you know they where they get their petrol you know there was a time there was information that they were starving you know so the food chain has been stopped and in situations like that you find out that the rebels will want to surrender because they find out that they cannot just die there they can just take a walk across drop their arms and everything will be back to normal you know so they did that that one is okay and that is genuine but again you must profile them when they're coming like that because you don't know what their plans are like I told you the Zamfara state governor gave amnesty to a gang and this particular guy the leader of the gang after collecting money and vehicles and all still went back to now continue what he was doing you know which made the governor to say that no more we are not going to allow this anymore so it is very very important the screening don't allow them into society for now because the war is not over keep them somewhere and let them be there while you are screening them and then at the end of the day if you feel that you know we want to give amnesty to them give them amnesty and let them go out and do something useful to society but to just take them in and then let them go give them some clothes he told me and I don't know I don't think that's the proper way of doing this again the the the police minister had said that we as a nation have a responsibility to our citizens and he says it's to integrate with the little that we can afford to give them and will continue to monitor what they're doing in their various communities to ensure that they do not go back to their old ways but I'd like to remind you that we had a group of Boko Haram repentant members who the federal government sponsored a program of sorts for them the Nigerian army was the same set of people who told us that these people some of them went back as informants to Boko Haram so I'm asking you now as a wear your security expert heart once again how long should this process take this this processing and and debriefing and getting to watch them and monitor them and should they be monitored while they're released into the community or should they be monitored while they are in some form of I mean an encampment or a place I don't know you cannot monitor people that you have released into society and that is why the man in Zafara state went back and started his birthday again because there is nothing you can do you know how many are you going to keep there you're going to keep some soldiers or policemen to keep surveillance on him no it doesn't work that way so that's why we are suggesting that put them in a jail in a kind of encampment where you will process them the United States did it it's an example to the world Guantanamo Bay people are still there after 40 years after well 20 years that's after the 9-11 you know and of course you don't have to keep them there for forever because as long as they are there and you are monitoring them and then of course processing them interviewing them they have psychologists to talk to them and everything the radicalize them then you can release them into society but what we're doing now is like even the Nigerian government is maybe tired and they want to get rid of this war so quickly come over come over let us give you a blessing and you go back to your village that is not going to stop this because as soon as they get back to their villages even those they killed the families they have displaced are there and the universities that will come along with that is going to cause a lot of bigger problems for the country okay I think we've been able to re-establish contact with Mr. Dayakayade can you hear me Mr. Kayade now if you've been following our conversation you could you must have heard what the security analyst has been saying but let's look at this from a political perspective now he just said something very striking at the end that he feels like the government is tired of fighting this war and they would do anything to just put an end to it but then where does that leave us as a society yes you see in the first instance these people that are saying they want to re-integrate the party back into society they are great against the conscience of the federal republic of Nigeria next next night because these conclusions people let what should happen to anybody any Nigerian who are called as soon kidnapping death and all that with being the territory called federal republic of Nigeria that is what they are supposed to do today but as the constitutionally as the constitutionally that they should be given unless it no so if you are planning to give unless it to anybody to anybody who has been kidnapped killed and got people's life then you yourself are bound to be jailed because there are people who have made but Mr. Kayade there are people who have made a case that the Niger Delta militants were kidnapping foreigners while they were agitating for what they were agitating for and so many people point fingers to the Niger Delta and say hey they gave them amnesty why can't you give us amnesty and I I still go if I were to go by what you're saying the constitution still doesn't make room for that does it yes actually I see who going to get there I'm going to get there you see some people are killing and you are talking of pre-integrated how about people that are going through the constitution as regards agitation or sub-determination sub-determination agitation is entrenched in our constitution even though there are rules and uh and regulations guiding guiding agitating that is another aspect of it but the thing is if if today in the country if in the custody of DSA I don't know why we shouldn't be having all these bad deeds that you are planning to give amnesty to also in the custody of DSA now now you are now saying you are now saying you want to give them amnesty who are these people according to according to one of the governor he said he has seen all the people and they are majorly full on me his children and these people majorly practices his religion so where do we go from there I will say because I will say because the head of government in Nigeria is full on me now you are now saying you want to give you to cool amnesty and then I do not really know if all of the guys who have been arrested or who have submitted themselves can actually be categorized as full on me whether they're full in here or not we're yet to have that information but can we really make that a session that they are full and he's really a governor another thing said it and it was all over the media that these people over 80% of death are full on me and the practices is religious he said it is in the media all over the world so but on that I will now not say that that the public is canon is canonizing agitating not now justifying for his agitation he would do I have his official on how he's going about it but then he has been justified now they got also both of these amnesty you want to give today how will you expect somebody who has killed, made, kidnapped, collected ransom rights people in a particular environment to not live together with the victims is this is possible if you want to win this battle of insecurity in Nigeria I am telling you in reintegrating this school into the into the society we make it to be more difficult remember when the Americans were here to assist us they said look who are the people that are leaking their information to this body because they don't make the plan like this they don't execute me that thing will have gotten to those guys and the the nice thing is ambush and those guys have to put their backs on you and they left Nigeria so if you're not saying you want to reintegrate or what do you want to reintegrate them so for me these are my reservations these are my reservations and I think the government should think twice before they do that and finally before I let you go um because time is moving pretty fast the issue um I think we had I had this conversation with a group of people yesterday the fact that there are the the the the group of people who have asked the presidency and the government the federal government in general uh to name and shame people who are financiers or people are sponsoring um this banditry or terrorism in Nigeria um and we're yet to hear anything even though the UAE had in 2016 if I'm not mistaken or 2017 given us a name of the names of six people who they caught and those people as we speak are serving their time in the UAE prison as financiers of terrorism in Nigeria we as a country are yet to point out those who are within the country who are financiers let's not also forget that in under the Goodlock Jonathan administration he did also actually accept that there were people in his government who were sponsoring Boko Haram uh allegedly now also there is a reports that has also made the media that there are people within the government of President Buhari that are allegedly sponsoring terrorism the DSS had said that they also have an idea of this information but that they're waiting on the presidency to give them a go ahead so the UAE who is not necessarily receiving at the receiving end whose citizens are not being killed kidnapped or abducted have done the needful but here we are we haven't done the needful so I'll ask you why do you think that it's taking us so long to name and shame if we do know these people who yeah uh we see these are part of what I have been saying now the sentence of names of financiers from our brothers how many days now what have we done nothing to remember about some uh two months back so 400 Nigerians were cleaned down they were said to be financiers of these same soldiers in Nigeria and they were told they could take I could remember uh uh Chief Emi Palano FAA saying that look Mr Tony General these people you have known that you have seen that what are you waiting for to prosecute them why you not for the killing them now you see these are all the things that have played together that made me to say the other time I don't know whether your platform on another one that look fighting insecurity in Nigeria is beyond changing of service chiefs we are not saying shouldn't change of service chiefs but it's beyond changing service chiefs not only when the president decide to change his philosophy decide to change his body language as he does fighting his country in this country we're going to get nowhere not only to wonder am I poor of CNN faith when when when the leadership of this country has to prove to our rep to prosecute and punish anybody since all these just are regards this country which is this country they not mean they are an accomplice if you wonder about you but can you really say that the government is outrightly refusing it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't seem it doesn't seem that the government is refusing I mean you may think so but does it really seem that the government is refusing because the government is doing stuff they're talking but when you say the government has outrightly refused it means that there must have been a press statement saying we cannot do anything about bookworm to attend to reason when you put all the apple stands in this country together we have no other thing to say that they are an accomplice let me give you an analogy look at that your office look at that your office as progressive as a television special is the moment the moment new employment have been made and then you start seeing some infatuation as the grassroots of engagement in that office and the leadership is seeing it your MD or whatever or your chairman is seeing it and it's not saying anything and then the process bringing it to you and it's even expecting the person that is that and he refused to do anything about it then he is an accomplice then he knows about it so if you can go for that analogy then we can deduce what what I mean the kind of relationship we can say this leadership of our country is having with the party in this country okay we have to go but quickly Mr. Macri um we're we're almost I mean we have two more years for the Bahá'í administration uh to you know elapsed and I always say this every single time I have a conversation about insecurity in the country I remember that this is well one of the um tripods on which he's government came into being do we see him being able to at least deal with or scratch the surface of dealing with this now multi-headed monster because first he was just broken around but now we have all sorts of long gunmen and now the bandits and all sorts of terrorism do we see him at least dealing with this issue before he leaves office or is it going to forever be on the tag or the name tag of Mr. President that he never was able to deal with insecurity the one which he campaigned that he was going to deal with I think the president has said it himself he said when he had a meeting with the service chiefs he told them that he's not going to leave office as a failure and that means that they have to all be on their toes and of course yesterday we had the chief of army staff during the chief of army staff conference re echoing what the president said that we were not going to accept failure and strongly I can tell you this if there is the political will this war is not going to last for one or two months you know but we are having new in fact new revelations of how many bandits are in this country in the ungoverned spaces in this country and then of course half of the job is done we now know where they are and some of their leaders and the military as the result the security agencies I don't have any doubt to me that they are going to clean them out okay so let's hope three years is a long time when it comes to politics and anything could happen so you're telling me it sounds like you're saying that we're politicizing this one that's why it's lingering but anyway Dennis Amakri is former deputy director for the dss and Daya Kaede is a political technocrat thank you very much gentlemen for being part of the conversation thank you for having me all right well thank you all for staying with us we'll take a short break and when we return we're looking to the plea by the Philippi governors to the National Assembly to rescue my Jewish democracy we'll be right back