 Good afternoon everyone. Good to be back on stage. What's up? Slush and I'm really pleased to be here having conversation with Robert who I think is one of the most interesting founders of in Europe and why do I think that well a few reasons one is that it's actually building a company that is becoming a global Winner or a global leader in your category a global communications company And the two things that is close to my heart here with three things is global communications company Communication something I have a background on and the other thing I think is very very cool Personally for me is that you're from Amsterdam and that's what I started my first company in 2000 Because I wasn't too I started in in in Amsterdam and I used to have great memories from from there So I was a power user back then. Yeah You put you gave us a lot of problems Sorry. Yeah, so what robbers is doing another thing that we as an investor what we like about this company is that he has a hundred million dollars an annual run rate and With profitability and the company's been almost doubling or actually been more than doubling revenue every year So it's a massive company and growing really well. It's also a global company in terms of your reach So what they do is is a cloud communication service Robert talk more about that. It's a global company you're signing up customers all around the world and So needless to say At a time ago, we were extremely pleased that we were invited To to become an investor in your company earlier on this year when you took you took in financing for the first time And we did that together with our good friends at excel. So Let's hear it from from Robert Tell me from, you know, how you started, you know, you you how did you start this company? I know that you were doing something different before this. Well, tell us the story how it all came about Yeah, so I was basically working at my previous companies a pay Which was an API to pay for virtual goods on your mobile phone bill back then carriers were gonna become payment companies and and you know, we were sort of We were integrating with carriers in order to provide these payments and we wanted to verify users phone number with a text message and it was Very crucial to our business that we were able that that message would arrive because otherwise we couldn't verify the user And we couldn't process the payment and we use this vendor That was the market leader back then and basically messes when arrived they would arrive late We would lose conversions and it was one big mess So we integrated with KPN with some from Amsterdam's was a Dutch carrier They had owned back then op goes throughout Europe and Germany France and Spain integrated with them built it ourselves and Basically took the base business away from our vendor and the most interesting thing that happened was that a couple weeks later The account manager calls us and it's like hey What happened to the business that you were sending us and as I was complaining about how shit their service was They were like well if your service so much better Why don't you supply it to us and that was the first time that I realized that there was like a Aggregation business that that we could we did something that they didn't have because they didn't integrate directly with the carrier They were using another supplier that was using another supplier, which is you know the fundamentals of communications why some of it's broken So made kind of the contrarian decision back then we got an offer to sell the company We ended up selling it and we went into this like messaging business and back then everybody thought SMS was gonna die because of you know Facebook what's app But I just fell in love with the product and and the way that it worked technically There wasn't some you know, I was yeah more luck than anything else, but it turned out okay Yeah, and what's really interesting also One thing I would very impressed with when we looked at your company was that you guys you built your whole Technology stack in house, which is pretty complicated because it's actually a signaling seven Communication stack, which is you know, you have big your companies like Ericsson Nokia and others doing that but you guys just did it and it was interesting here is something that reminds me of when we built Skype because we kind of did the same thing and and And then of course you ask yourself why why do you build your own technology instead of kind of going out and procuring it from others I Mean for us it just it just seemed like the most logical thing to do It was kind of the same way that we looked at integrating with carriers directly Which seemed like a logical thing to do and and nobody else was doing it And it was the same that I think if you want to innovate into and if you want to innovate in communications in our space You want to innovate in technology? You need to own the lowest level infrastructure and so To build our own as a seven stack was like something that made a lot of sense to us I don't even think I realized when we started building it that nobody else had ever done it before That was just more something we but we just did it yeah And and it worked out you didn't ask if it was too difficult you just did it Yeah, we just what we just and you know a lot of stuff went wrong at the beginning, but it ended up Is that something to do with your t-shirt that you're wearing? Yeah, we got shit done Can you see it? Oh, you can't see it, but oh so Let's turn to Amsterdam I'm sure I hope that some of you guys have seen the report that we launched today the state European tech 2017 and one of the things we're highlighting is that it's no longer about a few tech hubs that Where technology is happening in Europe as a matter of fact? We think that every city is becoming a tech city and I think message board is a great example that places like Amsterdam is also now We're not really on the map as well for for technology So Robert tell me what's happening in in Amsterdam in terms of startup ecosystem and is there Is there a lot of companies are the angel investors are their events? What's what's happening? I mean I have to be really honest that for me and you know I Try to I try to not go to a lot of events and and try to focus on building the business I think if you if you focus a lot on going to events, then you're probably not building something really good So I have a little bit of a skeptical view on that but you know, I think the texting apps sounds good We have you know obviously booking a company like ad yen payments company, you know competitor to Stripe Worth a couple billion. I think that's a really good example of like a Dutch founded company that stayed in Amsterdam All like 80% of their employees are there we transfer as a Dutch company. There's a lot of cool tech You know coming coming out of Amsterdam But we could be doing more. Yeah, of course you have booking.com, which is a giant as well So there there's there's been some some some big successes and talking about that What about talent is that you know, obviously you have a very talented tech team because you build some very challenging technology has that been is that is that Have you recruited everyone locally or did you get people from abroad? How many people are you today? By the way? We're about a hundred people today Well, there's any engineers that need a job. They're welcome. So and you know if finding engineering talent is always hard I think for any any place in the world. It's hard in Amsterdam as well We always took a deliberate decision to not use any recruiter So we were very proud that we've never used a recruiter in the history of message bird We do we do a lot of our own events. We do this event IPA's and API's where we just invite people to come have beers with us There's there's no structured. There's no speeches. There's no, you know People just come to our office and have beers It's been good for recruiting because you know people we get to show like what we actually do it Another thing is we you know our company is growing so fast and it's quite technically challenging that a lot of engineers Just like working for us because they have it's a real challenge. Yeah But yeah, we can we can always time do you spend personally on the recruitments Yeah, more than 50% of my time these days percent. Yeah. Yeah, I mean talents, you know Obviously started out with a couple people doing most of the work. Yeah these days, you know, it's the team that makes the company It's not an individual the reality is also A lot of time for a founder have that you have to spend a lot of time doing that Yeah, it's the number one. It's the number one thing that's important is actually if you have a really great team I think somehow you will figure out a way to be successful. Yeah And I think if you scale really really quickly and you don't have the foundations Properly set then it's a recipe for disaster. Yeah, so I don't tell me go You know, of course, we're thrilled about business models about technology But at the end of the day, it's about founders It's the founders who really make things happens and then certain characteristics that you need to have you need to have that really determination to win at any price and and to have you know want to build something that is a winning model of winning business that can can stand a test of time and One one point I really enjoyed when when we had a conversation earlier on this year Was when you told me the story about when you guys had a position offer That could have been potentially life-changing for you and financially you could make a lot of money because the other thing that didn't say was that You guys had new investors so you basically you and the team had Owned the company. So yeah, we bootstrapped our cat table was clean There was so today could have been a pretty life-changing event So tell tell what you tell us a little bit what happened and what was the outcome? I mean, it's a little bit of a confronting question, but you know, we're among friends here. Okay, so I mean look, I don't think that you as a founder You should try to build something that has impact that that gets you up in the morning You know, I've never woken up in the morning and didn't want to go to didn't want to go to work So I think that's the most important thing so when somebody comes with an acquisition offer I think the questions you should ask yourself is are you tired? Like are you are you done with with work? Which I wasn't You know is your is your market going down a drain? Do you see something coming up that you think? You know if I get out now then like, you know, I've done really well and that also wasn't the case So I didn't really I didn't really want to sell that being said You know, I remember they invited us over we obviously knew What what the conversation was going to be you know when corp dev and found and founders of other big companies? Start inviting you over you kind of know what the what the question is going to be I mean it all starts with like we want to have a strategic discussion with you and see how we could partner together But you kind of know what it's about and then I remember they they wrote down They're like they wrote down a number on the board and you know, I won't say what the number was but I I remember just keeping a straight face Trying to not like think, you know, this is a dream. This is like, you know, this is not normal but then again looking You know a couple weeks past and and we entertained the discussions And then at some point it just didn't feel right. We we seriously considered it. It didn't feel right I can't explain exactly one thing what it was. Yeah, but we just weren't done Building and I remember walking into their office and thinking like so this is gonna be my Job like I'm gonna have to go here and have lunch here and be here and I just didn't see myself Do it and enjoy your money though. You could you know, you could be the king of the night clubs You know, you could have a nice apartment big car Yeah, but does that make you happy? I don't know. I've seen a lot of people I mean I've been in San Francisco a lot in the past two years There's obviously a lot of people that made a lot of money there every single founder has basically told me that they wish They kept their business so I Don't know for me. That wasn't we made that decision, which was you know The future will tell me it was stupid or not. Yeah, so when you made a decision about a year. It's actually this week Almost I think it's actually this week exactly a year ago. All right, and you look happy So tell me so when you made a decision, how did how did you did you do that? You know with a team and what did you tell the team and what? Yeah, how did it did it change your team? I mean it wasn't I mean this wasn't this wasn't my I mean I never felt it was honestly just my decision You know we had a fine found at the company with a founding team From like a structural level. I guess it was my decision, but like You know this was this was a team I honestly if they would if some of the other guys on my team would have said we really want this You know, I don't have a family they had families. I Probably would have done it because I you know, I just I don't feel this isn't this was an individual decision but the coolest thing was that I remember I had the conversation basically saying guys, I don't think we should do this and Then I had the conversation that I just told them. Sorry. We're not gonna do this that the acquiring company and The next day it was on a Sunday. We had a conversation on Saturday and on a Sunday We had like a call that was like five people in the call and they were like, you know what Robert? Fuck it. Let's kill him and we'll be the one buying them in five years and You know that that I probably will never forget that moment ever and did you your ambition level? Did you did you kind of elevate your ambition level and and yeah? I mean that was that was the moment that we I mean we bootstrapped for for six years That was the moment that we really decided like okay If we really want to have an impact in the world if we really you know if we're serious about you can say jokingly Okay, I'm gonna kill my competition or I'm gonna buy my competition But what if you honestly mean it and then what are the steps that you need to take to get there? What's the scale that you need to get at? What's the help that you need so for us we were profitable it wasn't just about the money It was more about you know what the help you know working with with you guys you you guys have all been operators entrepreneurs yourself You know, how did how did you do it for us working with Excel? You know, it's amazing investors You know, what's the what have they seen work? What have they not seen work? Yeah, that was probably the moment that I decided okay now. We're just gonna go all in Yeah, so that's also when you actually decided actually I should take in investors because you didn't have a board yet No one to you know, you my board meetings were so lonely I would sit in front of a mirror have a having like a nice whiskey coke and yeah, just have a conversation with myself Yeah, give yourself a nice self-assessment. Yeah But it's interesting because for many entrepreneurs, it's almost a dream scenario your own you you know you have a profitable company you don't have a board you're not accountable to anyone and You can do whatever you want, but instead you went out to seek out venture capital investors and Now you have a you told me at a four-hour board meeting yesterday and my first real real board I had one before but I was a trial one. This is my first real board meeting. Yeah, so what was you know? so Why did you want? Why did you decide to take in investors and and what did you look for at? You know with investors I Mean I'll start with what we looked for I mean we were fortunate enough that we had people knocking down the door for a while So yeah, so we I mean we just ran a we ran I asked advice from other founders What we should do and we ran a competitive process. We we invited we made a deck. We invited ten of the best Venture capitalists to to have conversations with it starts with a coffee. We basically eliminated the first couple straight away You know that we went through the process it all went really really quickly I mean I think from the first coffee with Excel to term sheet was eight days I think it was similar to Atomico But I kind of knew when I walked in it was it was You know it's kind of like if you if you if you meet your girlfriend or your wife And you know there can be a hundred girls in the room or guys for the girls But it's the one that you like and why do you like that person? It doesn't have to be the best good-looking one or the smartest one It's just something about it and it was the same we were not the best looking investors Come on Robert But it was just something about it just clicked and I think it was also the conversations were very deep Yeah, so there was a clear segment between investors that were like just really wanted to jump on the ship and get on board and And both you and Excel had exactly the same mindset of like okay, but so you've done this But where do you need help? How can we help? You know, what are we gonna build? How's the company gonna look like in five or ten years? It's just an engaging conversation And that's what we wanted and and you know, I up until now I feel super happy with the decision we made Yeah, and now you're building a global business. So How how it you know, you have obviously, you know, you have business in and reach in in in Asia Latin America is that Is that the challenge or how do you think about scaling your business from here? I mean scaling is you know hiring and scaling is what keeps me up at night So it's like the two things we're lucky that the rest of the fundamentals of the business are good so far the company's growing Everything's good. Customers are happy. So You know, it's really about like how do you? We're a hundred people now. We hired about 41 people for 41 people since August So that's quite quite a lot of people for us and we spent six years. You know growing from zero to the first 35 people So it's it's going quite quickly. So, so how do you scale that? What what help do you need? What executive help do you need? You know, you don't obviously a Lot of the people in our company are young are super talented but are super young You don't want to combine that with like really let's say I don't want to age discriminate But let's say the old gray hair type people that everybody's afraid of but it's also the reality that you know We're here young ambitious talented But if you want to grow the company to 500 or 1,000 people in a couple of years Then how do you do that and your your mind your challenges are completely different to people that you have to hire the skill set that you need to hire for is different, so I don't have the answer that this is what we spent two hours of the board meeting talking about yesterday Half your time is is recruitment. It's the most important thing, right that they say and That that you need to be focused on and continue to get the best people Yeah, it's Challenging. Yeah, so a few takeaways here. We heard Coffee meetings and strategic meetings So we know what that means if you haven't got coffee that means that your first meeting for actually pitching and when there's a meeting about with a strategic meeting means that actually someone to buy you and and And the golden rule when someone does even if you want to sell the company you say always say no Yes, I mean, I did say no to the acquirer first like I think but you probably thought maybe it's like shit I want to do this, right? Maybe because you thought about the money a little bit. Of course. No, I mean, you know I won't deny I I looked at the type of houses. I could buy if I sold it, you know It's just you know, they're probably gonna still be around in Amsterdam for a while those houses. Yeah, I don't I'm I'm fine With where I live also. Well Robert, thank you very much. Thank you discussing with you and Congrats. Thank you so much. Thanks