 So, I want to talk to you about the state of the Media Wiki community, which sounds really impressive and fancy, but that's just because I wanted a really impressive and fancy-sounding title. So, hi, I'm Chris. I'm a recovering Media Wiki admin. I worked in a healthcare organization for four and a half years. I'm a member of the Media Wiki Stakeholders Group as a volunteer, and in 2016 I joined the Media Wiki Foundation as a community liaison, which means I work with our product teams and technology teams and our communities of volunteers around the world to make sure they talk to each other and translate developer language into user language. I like cheese, and I'm also lactose intolerance. This slide contains humor. Warning this talk is incredibly subjective because I'm speaking from my own perspective as a human being, but I try to be as factual as I can. However, I'm also flawed because I only have one perspective, and that's the perspective I currently have. So, in my slides, which you can find on the program on MediaWiki.org, I try to share as many references and notes as I can in my presenter slides so you can make it your own mind about the current state of things. But this is kind of how I see things and how I kind of think things are in general. Oh yeah, by the way, that's the organization I work for. So this is what I'm going to cover really quick. I want to cover four things, a little bit of history, particularly for new people or people who haven't been in the movement, the Media Wiki community is long. Some of our challenges, some things I think that are just missing and some ideas we can do about it. There is a participation aspect to this. If you go to my session, there's a link to an Etherpad and I'll talk about that in a second. So that's what I'm going to cover. So the first off, we're going to talk about some history. So I have to put a space joke in here. So this is the development of the universe as we know it, starting back about, you know, 300, what, millions, 13.7 billion years of time here, so ha-ha joke, it's a history. Okay, I'm kidding. But I do want to solve it on the same page as far as history of how things have gone. So let's talk a little bit about Media Wiki history. So Media Wiki was first created as a media, as, and called Media Wiki back in 2002. It's actually the third incarnation of the software that runs Wikipedia. In 2005, Symantec Media Wiki was a thing that came into being. A lot of good stuff happened in between here, these little squiggly lines are. I don't have enough stuff to put in there, but I kind of want to mention the beginnings. And then lots of stuff happened. And then more recently, starting in around 2010, we had the first Symantec Media Wiki conference, official one, or, you know, called Symantec Media Wiki conference in Boston, Massachusetts, then we had Wiki APRE starting in 2011. We had Wiki data as a project. And for those of you who aren't familiar, Wiki data is the closest thing I could describe to Symantec Media Wiki in the Wikimedia proper, right? It's a way of organizing data and ontologies and so on and so forth. So that started in 2013, and then in 2014, the Media Wiki stakeholders group, as Cindy mentioned in her presentation, was started. And also in 2014 is the first time I went to a Symantec Media Wiki conference where I met folks like Mark, and Yaron, and Cindy, and a few others. And so that's kind of when I started getting involved in it personally. And then in 2015, the Media Wiki stakeholders group put together this Media Wiki user survey. We presented it at the Wikimania 2015 in Mexico City, where we kind of present it to the community there, the first kind of survey of what are people doing with Media Wiki? Who are downloading it? What are they using it for? Everything from, as we know from NASA, to CERC Delay, to GE, to NATO, to the relatively small healthcare provider I work for. People using it, who are they, where are they at? At the same time in 2015, the foundation started a team called Developer Relations, which turned into the technical collaboration team, which I'm part of. And Developer Relations was kind of the first initiative to kind of say, hey, we need to start doing outreach to find, retain, and support volunteer developers in our movement, not specifically Media Wiki, but related to Media Wiki. And then in 2016, we had our first EMW con, so the Enterprise Media Wiki Conference, which was in New York City, hosted by Wikimania, New York City, and you, right? Yeah, okay. And also in 2016, we had our CTO, so at the foundation, for those of you who don't know the foundation, hasn't had a CTO for a while, and we were lucky enough not only just to find somebody, but we found Victoria Coleman, who brought a much needed sense of stability and knowledge to that position. And with her in position, we led into things like the next EMW con, which Cindy hosted in Washington DC, and then obviously the Media Wiki product manager, which is Cindy, who we just met a few minutes ago. And so having these roles kind of filled, we were able to start doing more work around Media Wiki as a thing and trying to support it with a little more structure. In 2017, also, Techcom renewed their, or should revise their charter. And again, all the notes to what I'm talking about are in the slide. So if you're like, what's a Techcom, you should find out what a Techcom is. Actually, they have a really nice newsletter they send out every time they have a meeting where you can read the meeting notes to what they're talking about. And in advance, you can find out what the RFCs are, which are requests for comments. So this is how you can participate in what sort of technical decisions are being made in and around Media Wiki. So heads up there. We mainly made things like the Code of Conduct for our technical spaces. And last year, we started a discourse pilot, which for those of you who don't know, discourse is kind of a message board solution. It's a little more contemporary than something like a mailing list. It's not quite like Slack, but it's a very useful way of providing a place for developers to go to ask questions about Media Wiki in the surrounding technologies. It's a pilot, so it's still on labs, it's not official. But it's one way we're trying to say, we have a whole bunch of different places to talk, how can we kind of consolidate some of those? And then actually, I'm kind of surprised Cindy didn't mention this, but also just recently we had this great thing, which is the aggregate ping-back data for Media Wiki. So starting in a version of Media Wiki about, what, two years ago that land on Media Wiki? A little over a year ago, there's an opt-in feature in Media Wiki now where we actually get some statistics about Media Wiki. So we can see things like, what version of Media Wiki are people running out there in the wild? So these are third-party folks such as yourselves. If you opt-in during installation, during an upgrade, or setting a configuration change, I'm assuming. You can give us being the community information on what you're doing. So things like database type, PHP version, operating system, so on and so forth. And we can get this aggregate data to say, hey, we want to make a decision about what version of PHP we support, or are people adopting the newest version of Media Wiki, or are they not? And sort of provide more context around what's going on in Media Wiki. So there's a lot of things happening, I guess, is what I'm trying to get at here in the history of things. And then here we are today, right? So we have this conference now being the third one of its kind, where we can get 40-something people in a room from literally around the world to discuss the future of things. And there's a whole much more, right? We have things going on, oh, yes? Okay. I don't mention that celebration, I don't think we're a year late. You're making it up, or you're fibbing the numbers? That's my fault then, okay. I'll correct it. And we have lots of new things happening. For those of you who don't know, as a volunteer, I helped put together a somewhat quarterly newsletter of things going on in the Media Wiki world. And some things I've learned about recently that are kind of interesting is that there's a WikiBase user group. So there's a user group of people who are using WikiBase, which is kind of interesting. That's a WikiBase being the thing that runs WikiData, which is in some ways but not quite similar to Semantic Media Wiki and other sort of structured data software. We also have things like the podcast between the brackets, which is an interesting sort of thing to happen. Our community is healthy enough to support a podcast about itself. So that's kind of an interesting thing to think about, right, as far as our growth and our maturity goes. And the stakeholders group, as I mentioned, we also have a really great dashboard that my co-worker Andre is working on, which provides some analytics on community health and community activity. And we can see things like commits and who are they are, who are the commits and chainchats and emails and authors. And we can see things like, hey, isn't this interesting that according to these statistics, which take them with a grain of salt because they're numbers, it looks like about half of our contributions are actually coming from independent folks, not coming from the foundation. So in a lot of contexts, folks seem to think that the foundation is all the code commits. And this sort of data tells us no, actually we look at this and we're actually less than 50% of commits to media wiki and other related applications. So again, a little bit of history, where we've been and where we're going to, I think it's really exciting. Let me find my mouse cursor. However, I don't think everything is perfect, nothing is perfect. So I wanna talk about some challenges. And I'm gonna list a few challenges here because I tried to present a somewhat professional presentation and do a little bit of homework. But like I said at the beginning, things are subjective. So I'd like to encourage you, and I'm thankful for Lex for reminding me of this, I did this last time I presented it at EMWCon. I want you to join me. So if you go out to this URL, or if you don't wanna type in URLs, because that's old school, go to the hyperlink on my session on the event. And there's a link to this ether pad. And if you open this ether pad, what you'll see is something that looks like this. And these are the bullet points. I'm gonna go over here over the next few slides. They're the ones that I've entered in here. An ether pad is basically a open source version of Google Docs, but no Google watching over your shoulder. So you can type anything you want in here. If you click on the icon up in the top right corner, you can name yourself if you want. But the general gist is here, I wanna go over some of these challenges with you. And I want you to share your own in this document with me. And at the end of this presentation, what I hope we have is not just a few bullets I'll show here, but is a collaborative collective understanding of what our challenges are, what are some things that we are missing, and what are some things that we have opportunities to improve on. Okay, so let's go ahead and get into this. Again, I'm trying to be considerate of time here, and give a little bit of time for the lightning talk still. So here's a few challenges that I particularly think are worth noting and worth mentioning here in front of you all. I think finding and getting involved in the community is rather difficult. I think we are a dispersed group of people from many different backgrounds, and you might go download MediaWiki and you're like, great. Okay, now what? Who do I go for help? Where do I go? How do I find stuff? Where are people talking? Where are people meeting? Online, offline, asynchronously, synchronously. I think we really struggle with that. I think that a lot of the foundation resources are focused on MediaWiki, sorry, focused on Wikipedia and the other projects, and that leaves little time for MediaWiki as a thing on its own. So, as Cindy mentioned, we have a lot of folks at the foundation who would really love to give a whole bunch of time into making the installation of MediaWiki process smoother, but nobody at the foundation is running MediaWiki that way. Nobody's installing MediaWiki by clicking through the installer. And so that falls to sort of secondary time or 20% time. How can we change that? How can we advocate for that? I think there's also a little bit of a language barrier or maybe a cultural barrier. We did that report in 2015, and we found out that the number one country for downloads for MediaWiki was China, but I'm pretty sure I don't have anybody who's a representative of the Chinese country here who use MediaWiki in China. So where are those people? Why aren't they here? How do we reach out to them? How do we find them? I think it's an opportunity there, but it is a challenge for us. How do we find them? How do we reach out to them? How do we connect with them? And as I mentioned before, we don't have a single place to congregate. I am actually in my volunteer time. I'm an admin for the MediaWiki subreddit. So if any of you are on Reddit, there's actually a subreddit for MediaWiki. It's not very active, but people go there and they ask questions. And they're like, hey, how do I do this thing with this thing? And it's crickets because nobody's there. And then some people go to the discourse because they stumble across that. Or some people go to a talk page for the extension and they post something, but the extension author isn't paying attention and it sits out there. And then some people come to these conferences because they hear about it. Some people don't, right? I think we have a challenge there where we don't have a single place, maybe not a single place, maybe less places or more easily identifiable places to go and congregate. And I think that it's really hard for me as somebody who also volunteers in other open source projects. I'm active in the WordPress community. WordPress community is a great thing, I think has it easier, quite frankly, because they are a one-to-one or one-to-many kind of relationship where they create the software and how much people go out and create a whole bunch of blogs or how much websites for anything from insurance to personal blogs, to travel guides, to the whole nine yards. Whereas Wikis are a little bit more like, we create one Wiki for this large group of people, right? Not everybody in this room has a Wiki for themselves. You usually have a Wiki for your organization or a few Wikis for your organization. So I think we have a challenge in that way of trying to find people and trying to grow our base is that we will never have WordPress numbers of people involved in our community because not everybody's gonna have a Wiki. Although, if you wanna start that campaign for that, I'm all for it. But I think the nature of a Wiki is a little bit different than other sort of open source programs where people usually use them on a one-to-one or a different kind of dynamic, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. And the last one, and this is being a little critical of myself and my friends as volunteers in the Media Wiki StayColders group, I think that as kind of leaders of the third party or community, we really need to show our value to partners. And by partners, I'm really meaning the Media Wiki Foundation. I think we need to show stronger why they should listen to us and why they should work with us and why that our concerns and our thoughts when we give them and we have an opportunity to participate should be listened to. I think we have a challenge in doing that for lots of other reasons. We're fractured, we're busy heads down taking care of our own problems and it's sort of our own organizations. I do think it's the challenges that we need to face. So I'm hoping you're typing things in. I don't know what's gonna happen here. I hope there's no profanity here when I click back over, but I think there, so I hope, yeah, so I hope there's some good challenges here. And if we have time later, maybe we can talk about some of these offline. I'd love to hear more about what some of the challenges that are out there. And please keep adding them. This document is live on the internet between sessions tomorrow, throughout the week afterwards. Please continue adding them. Oh, should I? Yeah, that might be a little more legible, huh? Okay, so those are some challenges and thank you for continuing to add. I appreciate that. Now I wanna talk about a few things that I think are missing and these are things that maybe I'm not aware of or maybe you all agree with me or maybe disagree. So please let me know in the etherpad. I think some things that are missing is stronger liaison, liaising, that's not a word. I can't even say that word. Leah, I should know that word. It's the title of my job, right? So stronger relationship between the foundation and the community. I think this is happening. I think obviously five people from the foundation being at this event is a good strong indicator that we are listening and that we do care. I think the fact that we have, not only do we have APM for Media Wiki platform, but the PM also happens to be somebody from our community and also happens to be here. Again, I'm talking just about Cindy. Not to put too much pressure on you. But I think these are all positive, strong things that we are doing, but I think there still could be more that can be done, right? More things, more formal like Cindy's position and us attending the conferences. I think we have opportunities for more people, a third party presence in decision making with regards to Media Wiki's future. And I have high hopes for this as well, but historically when we go to things like techcom or IRC office hours, the representation of folks in this room is rather low, right? And maybe that's, again, part of not having a strong relationship is maybe we're not doing enough advocacy to folks like you and saying, as a foundation saying, you need to come to this. This is a really important topic. We need your voice to make this decision about whatever it is that we're doing from a technical perspective. And I think, again, I think we should talk more about the things that we do well. So better publication of the work that we're doing, right? The better we can share our stories, the better that we can support one another with great examples of best practices, things you shouldn't do, things you're working on that work well. The more we can do that, the more we can support each other and create a more healthy environment. I feel like that's missing a little bit. I love the five year retrospective or I don't know what I wanna call it, that NASA recently put together a media wiki. I don't wanna spoil anything if you're all gonna talk about it, but you should take a look at that. And I think we should have better stats, which, again, I think we're working on, but I would love to see more there. And I know we have to balance privacy and anonymity with how we do things in our movement, but I would love to know more about how people are using it. Why are they using it? What are they doing with it? Why didn't they go with SharePoint? Or why didn't they go with some other's platform? And how did they get started? That sort of thing. I'd love to know more about those sort of stories and, again, to help tell a better story, a better narrative about why people use media wiki. And again, some more kind of little things. Like too many unanswered questions on talk pages. I go out to look at a talk page and there's some questions from six months ago and the person has a technical question. Did they get that answered? It seems to me that they didn't and that seems to be a sign of an opportunity for better health in our community when people go out and they have a question and, again, we are figuring out ways to support them. We don't necessarily have to answer everybody's question, but at least can we direct them to some venues that aren't empty, essentially. Or ignored. And things we all think are pretty missing. Better installation support. The external, the eternal better extension maintenance support was kind of a, every time I think I come to one of these conferences, it's always a topic. We'd love to be able to click a button and have an extension be up, installed or updated. And then often the thing we always come back to is documentation, right? More consistent documentation, figuring out ways to improve it and making it more accessible to folks. I think these are all great things that we are missing and I hope you're adding more here. Oh, okay, no more, huh? All right, I'm wearing you out already. But please, if you have more ideas on what's missing, please add those. And last but not least, I wanna talk about some opportunities. So what can you do, right? So some of these things are gonna be obvious based on what I just talked about for the last few minutes. But I'm gonna share them anyhow. So I wanna see more participation. I really wanna encourage folks to find the time, to participate in these discussions, to find the venues where we are having the conversations, which I link to a lot in the notes here, like TechCom being a really big one to start with. And like the MWStake monthly meetings, which happen online via, we use a program called BlueJeans, which is like Google Hangouts or Skype. And those events are great opportunities to kind of just get in the know what's going on in the communities and connect with other people. And getting more folks involved means there's more people, more brains, which means we can distribute the work that needs to be done to just address some of those challenges and address some of those missing things. So I think it's a great opportunity. I also think that we probably maybe should do more events, maybe more regional events, maybe smaller events. Maybe events that aren't so general. I mean, and this is a pretty general one. Maybe we talk about, I love what we did in DC, where we had an entire panel of people who were just from the United States government and they came and talked about what is like to use a wiki in the United States government, right, in a particular industry, for lack of a better word. And I think we also miss out on having lots of diverse voices involved. I think I hinted at this before. We have the pingback stats and the pingback stats, while not perfect, tell us that are over 40,000 media wiki installations and counting as it goes up. So where are those people? Where are those 40,000 admins, right? Where are those 40,000 people? And I know it's probably not 40,000, it's probably smaller than that, but where are they? Where are the folks who are in the rest of the world, the non-North American, the non-European folks? How do we get them involved and how do we find those more voices? Again, more brains, more voices, it can only improve the health of our community. And I think also think we should figure out ways to do more partnerships with like-minded communities, right? My experiences, again, subjective, my experiences have been, I talk a lot about wikis at wiki-related events, but I don't talk about wikis at non-wiki-related events. So where are we talking about wikis when we go talk to the folks in our industry who are doing knowledge management? Or we talk about folks in data management because we have a wiki that helps our data management team. Where are we advocating for the use of media wiki outside of these sort of already existing communities? Are there other open source programs and projects that we can work with to encourage them to adapt wikis or adopt wikis or get to participate? I know Mozilla has or had a very useful wiki. Where are they at? How have I been from them in a while? What's going on with their wiki? Are they still doing it? Why aren't they coming? You're nodding your head yes to me, but what's going on, right? They recently upgraded it to LTS, which is about to go out of life cycle. So they need to be here, right? They need to be here and have a voice and discuss things with us. So again, I'm going kind of fast because I wanted to give a little bit of time if we have some time for lightning talks and still get us out of here, but I kind of wanted to give us a good summary and I wanted to get, if we can just send in just a few minutes, if you have any thoughts or questions, I'm here to listen, but thank you for your time, I appreciate it. So is there any questions or any thoughts you wanted to add? Just a thought, I've worked in a community that if you've been in the healthcare area, you know about HL7, the standards organization, which is pretty big. One idea is to have organized special interest groups that can be smaller communities. This is a very wide subject area and I think it deserves some special interest group focuses that could be done from the media wiki level down to groups of people then that are just maybe email or wiki areas that are special interest groups and I think that that might generate some more participation. That's a great idea. So starting some SIGs that would be about accessibility or about use in healthcare or about particular sort of smaller aspects of things that are a little more targeted, that's a great idea. You mentioned the ways that you're communicating with people, but I'm curious how people want to be communicated to and what they would look for. And I know that we can't support everything, but I'm wondering if there's things that we should try to reach people and we're not doing that, or ways that people would listen and they're not. Yeah, so I think one of the limitations we have, maybe it's just a part of our maturity as a community or I think it's also part and partial with our history as a very considerate community of folks who don't want to suck your name into a bunch of databases and sell it to a whole bunch of other people and spam you with a whole bunch of emails, is that we have to rely a lot on putting our stuff out there and hoping people find it right now. So I do the media wiki stakeholders news roundups every few months and I go out and I grab links from mailing lists and from monthly conversations or Cindy sends an email and she mentions something happening, I grab all this stuff and put it together but my only option is to put it on media wiki.org, put it on Twitter and Facebook maybe and then hope people see it, right? So I think we need to be a little more thoughtful on how do we kind of, again, respectfully, appropriately ask people to, hey, would you like to get notified next time we have a thing that happens, whatever that thing might be, right? And figure out ways of communicating folks in that sort of, in their inbox unfortunately, that's where they're gonna see it. It would be interesting to ask people in. Sure. Subscribe to your newsletter. Let's, for time's sake, let's, if we can, if you can somebody just add a section somewhere on the ether pad and just start running down how you're gonna be communicated to. I mean, like, if you have ideas, just drop something in there that says, I like newsletters, I like mailing lists, I like Facebook, I like Telegram, Telegraph, whatever it is we're using for this thing. Whatever it is and maybe we can kind of figure out there's some sort of general consensus on a good place to go. I am grouped, thank you for that. Thank you for that. I'm glad we kept it PG though. So that maybe that's a good idea, if we can get some ideas for that, that's a good way of continuing the conversation. Podcasts. What? Sorry, I wasn't, what? Okay, this is actually something I've been wondering about for a while and it's all right if you don't have a specific answer for this, is there an example of a decision made at the Wiki Media Foundation that could have turned out differently if there were more involvement from the enterprise media Wiki community or outside media Wiki people? It was a couple years ago, but a really good example would be the one, I was impacted by it as a third party user myself. It was, I think Mark, you eventually fixed it with an extension, but it was media Wiki itself for the longest time would keep track of how many times a page was visited, which is basically just a counter, right? Page load, on page load, increased counter plus one, right? But it was really useful internally to the organization I worked for to kind of value, to kind of say, hey, which pages were most visited or most popular, and we can kind of talk to people about that. And it was just built into the media Wiki so you could put it in the footer and people could see it, this page has been accessed 200 times or whatever. And the decision was to remove it from media Wiki core because again, the Wikimedia movement, they don't do that, like they don't have that running in production anywhere, it would just be this number just be spinning like an odometer, right? Sort of thing. So I think that was handled, it ended up being handled okay, I guess, but it could have been improved because there was some frustration from third party folks who were like, they didn't know that it was gonna be removed because they didn't read the release notes or they weren't participating in the mailing list. It was a single thread in the mailing list for one month. And then the next time they go to update their Wiki, the way that it was handled is that the Wiki actually, I think nuked that database, right? Or the database that table just dropped that field. So then you go and you're like, I'm doing the right thing, I'm doing the good thing, I'm updating media Wiki, that's the good thing we want you to do. And you click the update button, or how quite that easy. And then all the stats just disappear and you're like, oh, I'll roll back or I'll go find that in the database. And you're like, oh, no, it's not there anymore. So yeah, that was kind of a very frustrating thing as a third party person that could have been handled better, I guess. Thank you for the perspective, Brian. Is the question in the back there? Right. Right, so that's the disadvantage we have as an open source, you know, anybody can come, anybody can join communities that we don't have any sort of tech evangelist or any sort of person who can go around to conferences or user groups or other meetings and say, hey, I heard you're gonna use Atlassians, whatever their thing is. You know, have you heard of this open source product? It's actually probably better. And it's free and there's a whole community behind it and oh, by the way, it powers the fifth most popular website in the world. You know, it's probably okay. There's nobody doing that work right now. I think we might be a little bit further away from that, but it's not a bad idea to have somebody who could reach out into those sort of professional organizations and professional places where people are making decisions, particularly leaders making decisions on products to purchase sort of support. It's very interesting to me, as somebody who used Media Wiki instead of organization, I think this is true in lots of people's experiences. 99% of the time I hear stories about how it started as a computer under somebody's desk who ran Media Wiki and it kept growing and kept getting adopted and it survived six different failed attempts to upgrade to SharePoint. And next thing you know, it's the thing everybody uses inside the organization. And that story I think is great, but that story is very frustrating and wrought with lots of problems and it takes many years, again, my experiences, for the Wiki to go from being this thing to actually being the thing, right? And how do we help new people go from zero to 60 a little faster, I think is a great idea. Great. Just a quick observation. I don't really have stats to back it up, but I wonder, you know, there's thousands and thousands of Media Wiki installations out there. We know that, we've got stats for that. And we know Media Wiki is an open source project and you can download it for free and you can get on a mailing list and do stuff. But I think, I wonder how many users of Media Wiki actually realize that their input is wanted or valuable and where can they go to ask questions or demand? You know, like, I would like to see this because, you know, like I think that many, many, many users feel like their kind of only option is, well, Patch is welcome. They can get in there and they can fix stuff and they can build extensions, but do they have a voice and where is that collective voice? Yeah. No, that's very true. Oh, I get to talk again. No, so, yeah, what Greg just said about having a place to go and what you were saying about having no single place to go and the foundation starting the Discord server kind of frustrates me in a sense because there is a place that people go and it is populated and may not be huge number of people, but at least it's advertised on mediawiki.org and that's the support desk. And people do go there and there are support people hanging out there and answering questions. And I know that, I'm sorry, I'm just getting frustrated now, I'll stop. But I think that there are places that people go and it's on a wiki and that's where people look for answers. I agree, dead talk pages are a problem, but I, yeah, anyway, people are out there if they're listening, they're responding. How do we harness that and make it a better, bigger thing? I agree, and maybe Discord is already herring. Maybe the solution is maybe we need to do better job of supporting the places where people are congregating now and being aware of them and improving that flow, right? So what if, here's a crazy scenario really quickly, what if if somebody posts something on a talk page in the extension namespace and it's not replied to in X time, a ping gets sent to some user group of people who care about support requests and they can come in and help. Ooh, and you know, that wouldn't even require wikimedia or anybody to do anything, it just takes the motivated person to write a bot to watch the talk pages and say, you know, take note. Someone needs help. So maybe we need to do better if the support desk is where people are at and why aren't we talking to those people? And maybe we haven't, maybe we haven't, I just don't know. So is there anything? Because we advertise everything there. And so you basically get the link to download the software and 80 other links to everything else you know about MediaWiki and how do you determine which one is the one I need to go to next? I think we have the hierarchy. I think the support desk probably is mentioned there. It is probably, probably, yeah, somewhere in there. And then you guys just support desk and you learn about discourse and, anyway, stop. Okay. Someone else should talk. Actually, I think I should probably stop now and tell everybody to find me afterwards over the next few days. But again, thank you for your time and thank you for the comments.