 Up everyone, welcome to modern day debate. We are a neutral, non-partisan platform welcoming everyone from all walks of life. If you're looking for even more fantastic debates, we are all over the internet on your favorite podcasting platform. So if you enjoy debates, please don't forget to like, follow, or subscribe, including tonight's debate on Flat Earth vs. Glow Earth with our debaters, Iron Horse and David Valere, here to help us find out and if you enjoy what either of them have to say tonight. Our guest links are in the description below. You can also tag me in chat at Amy Newman with your questions or comments for our Q&A section, though Superchats will get your sent to the top of the list. With that, I'm going to hand it over to Iron for their up to 10 minute opening statement. The floor is all yours. Thank you Amy and thanks David. Neither of us were the original debaters for today's topic, so we're both at last minute standing, so of course as usual, nothing prepared, but I don't really need to because it's all up in here. Pretty much everything that we understand about the nature of reality should be fundamental, should be provable, should be observable, and it should be backed up by evidence. When you believe in something, if you have a belief, like if you believe we live on a spinning ball hurtling through the vacuum of space, then that's an extraordinary claim and of course then the extraordinary claim must be met by extraordinary evidence and there is no evidence to the person who believes we live on a spinning ball hurtling through space. That's the most ridiculous concept you could ever be brainwashed with as a child but because you are a child, young and trusting, when you're brought up with this you tend to believe it and you're taught that the alternative to that model is something else that's also out in space that must have an edge and so therefore everything is falling off the edge if that's the case, whereas if you just reject all that nonsense in the first place and just start with the fundamental basics of what we do observe, there is no motion of the earth. Now when we look for curvature we find there is no curvature, if we get up higher we see further, so the illusion of curvature was limited to these people from thousands of years ago who came up with the idea that we lived on a globe because they saw a ship or a boat disappearing into the distance bottom first simply because they had no alternative but to accept either they got the law of convergence, which is what we now know to be true, or if they could have gotten up higher they would have seen that the boat hasn't actually disappeared over anything, the horizon extends out infinitely, water level proves that, that the fact that our earth, our known earth is at least 70% covered with water, then that has to be flattened level, that is just the nature of fluid dynamics in general and so and all land is then measured as height above sea level, just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's disappeared behind the curve, so we've got the lack of curvature, there's a lack of motion, the scientists who tried to find motion for hundreds of years all failed and so all they've done is come up with special theories of relative motion to try and hand wave dismiss that because on philosophical grounds they just don't want to accept the fact that the earth is actually the center of existence, we see lights above us, there's no proof that any of them are terra firma, the only possibility that something might be real and solid is the moon because we see craters and shadows in craters so that's no proof of anything other than the fact that the moon may also be solid, there's no evidence of all these other planets being terra firma and I want to stress that because that's they based everything on this solar system and everything going around the sun, water level itself can have a mirror perfect surface on it, now that is impossible for water to do that in one place means it has the potential to be able to do that in every place so again if 70% of the surface has the potential to have a mirror perfect surface then it is impossible then for the land to then make compensation for that curvature to put the earth into a roughly spheroidal or omelette sphere as they like to call it because they know it goes pear shaped outside of the equator and that's where all the nonsense began in the first place obviously we get as far as the equator oh Polaris disappears oh my gosh we've descended into the underworld which is exactly where most religious beliefs have come from it's all about sun worship the sun goes into the underworld three days and nights on the winter solstice and then after three days it rises again and gives us eternal life all religious beliefs basically stem around the giver of life which is the sun so it's fair enough that you know today the modern person still believes that the sun is the center of the universe or the center of the world every six months as we're going around the Sun nighttime is looking a hundred percent the opposite direction from where the Sun was previously six months ago yet we still see the exact same stars now there's some of them change some of the constellations might appear in a different place but that's normal because we know that the sidereal day is the stars rotating around above us is how we measure a year in the first place and so for us here in Australia when we look out every single night of the year that's the task we see the southern cross now we should not see that it should be drifting away if we're going around the Sun otherwise the heliists like the person I'm debating today you're all heliouists it's a religion it's a huge cult you must all believe that the entire universe at least our galaxy is also going around the Sun and that's why it's called heliocentrism because the god heliost the sun god that everything is going around not just our wandering stars the planets everything is basically has to be going around the Sun with us which is just out of nonsense what we see is those things rotating around above us they do it every night takes 24 hours the Sun returns overhead every day more or less at midday it may be on its own slightly elliptical path everything can be explained with perspective now another one you'd like to talk about is air pressure you cannot have pressure inside a vacuum it's just impossible a pressurized anything inside a vacuum is the opposite of a vacuum so the universe or the surrounding space around the earth cannot be a vacuum and you cannot say that gravity is a container gravity isn't a container gravity is a very very weak force that the smallest little vacuum like putting your finger over a straw and lifting it out of a glass of water that tiny little vacuum will overcome gravity down where gravity is the strongest so how could gravity be even stronger furthest from the center of gravity you've got no argument there whatsoever you cannot have a pressure gradient on a planet you can have it on the stationary planarath fixed at the bottom of the known universe because everything has density and everything finds its place according to its own relative density relative to everything else and i think i'll just leave it at that your turn thank you so very much iron for your opening statement and with that david the floor is yours for your up to 10 minute opening statement all right well thank you both very much i appreciate the opportunity to come here and i'm going to just go ahead and get right to it i'm going to resolve some of the philosophical and religious misunderstandings um so speaking about helios and religious beliefs um it does not matter what a religion had taught in the past and it doesn't even matter if that religion had somehow influenced people's belief one way or the other um that does not mean that the evidence that we see we see it because there was a religious belief so that's an absurdity that i agree for a different reason that it's an absurdity we're not bound to a belief for instance a galaxy going around the the earth or the sun it doesn't make sense that i'm supposed to believe that a galaxy goes around the sun or the earth because of helios so let's knock that out of the way um as far as gravity being weak so you say hey gravity's weak but you know only because only a small amount of force can be used to overcome it well one gravity is weak but there are so many particles that influence the area that the gravitational forces um you know affecting that that enormous amount of existing particles is why we have the gravitational force that we have when you compare that to lifting something what you have to remember is that you're lifting a small amounts and so yes the amount of energy that you have is enough to affect the gravitational force on that small object we are not comparing that small object uh potential energy to the entire gravitational force of the earth that doesn't make any sense so that's an absurdity that goes out the window um as far as gosh um constellations so you're in australia and you admit that you see the southern cross but the thing that you don't understand is that on a flat plane you have Polaris and you have the southern cross which both remain stationary and fixed whereas stars turn around them and that's every day of the year no matter where you are so that is not possible on a flat plane because well the dimensions just don't make it possible it's just not it's just not dimensionally possible for a flat plane to show two axes of rotation or i'm sorry well one axis of rotation but for you would be two axes of rotation from a flat earth perspective in fact you'd have to randomly pick where the center is where the you know zenith if you will is looking straight up and seeing either Polaris or the southern cross so that's an absurdity on perspective perspective does not allow things to appear to go downward as you you know you look at something receding in the distance beyond the horizon line there's no concept of perspective that does it so that goes out the window of gosh um i believe that when people speak about backing up things with evidence well we must physically test the evidence and not speak of the concept of saying oh well we need to follow the evidence let's discuss as i just did how perspective works let's discuss how an axis of rotation works and things of that sort not to mention the math and the uh the more uh advanced levels of physics that should be respected um there is no such thing as a law of convergence i just looked it up uh and if you've misstated that's your responsibility to clear that up but there is no such thing as a law of convergence um and if i'm wrong i'm wrong but that won't mean that the earth is flat even if i was wrong so let's not let let's not let rhetorical devices interfere with our ability to ascertain the truth um i don't know how much time i have left um so six minutes six minutes okay so somewhere between there so water to say that water is perfect like the surface of water is perfect over 70 percent how do you define perfection the fact that you assume that from where you start to as far as you can possibly concede not as far as you can see but as far as you can possibly concede you assume that the water follows the same path along your line of sight and because the the um the scale of the earth from your point of view on earth standing over the earth or even from a high point you presume that the dimensions of the earth remain flat because what you can see from your perspective is dimensionally flat but it's only dimensionally flat from your limited perspective and i can acknowledge the challenge of looking at the argument and saying well on one hand you're saying is flat as far as it can go and on the other hand you have this opposition that says well no it actually curves but the the scale of the curvature is such that you can't perceive it from your perspective on the surface or above what you would consider a high enough altitude before other arguments coming to the conversation arguments about whether or not even higher altitudes have been validated by accurate photography and trustworthy sources but that's neither here nor there so then uh oh yeah so back to water so with water being um the way that it is water forms around the center of mass whether that center of mass is um gravitationally bound or affected by static forces or um you know is influenced by other settling objects near it is is that's the distinction okay so you can't assume that because you see it level with a cup or even across a lake that it can't be forming around a center of mass and you spoke earlier about how the ground how the the earth itself couldn't possibly uh cause itself to be formed around a ball when 70 percent of the of the water 70 percent of the surface is water but that surface the earth isn't a hollow shell with 70 percent of that hollow shell being water the the water is a is a 70 percent of the surface and within the depths of the earth are heavier metals and heavier uh compounds that account for the gravitational pull that debunks and refutes the notion that you have that the ground can't possibly cause earth to form in such a manner with water 70 percent on the surface and then uh oh yeah no motion okay so yeah we go to scale and uh perspective but i'm not talking about visual perspective i'm talking about your limited uh access to the vastness of the earth in one city i cannot see from here to China and you say that there's no motion or no curvature is presumptuous because first of all you are ignoring the evidence that has been presented from the way that a ship can go over the curve to photographs that have been taken from high above from uh other forms of measurements that you have uh question arbitrarily and i will leave my uh intro on that the arbitrary rejection is a illogical and biased uh a way to make your argument so extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence and as i was saying while we were waiting if you believe that the earth was flat in the first place and you saw a ship go over the horizon that is extraordinary also uh when you see the stars go around you and these stars are supposed to be fixed and you're in a dome a dome only can allow one point that isn't like an axis of rotation for those stars to travel around which would be either Polaris or you know servant cross cannot be both and if you try to explain one with one type of method and another with another type of method that is an absurdity in upon itself in addition another extraordinary thing you would see the sun and the moon never changed your shape in the sky so those are extraordinary evidences that respond to the extraordinary claim so the three minutes left uh i'm going to try to review everything i said there's no such thing as a law of convergence or the vastness of the earth uh requires us to use a greater not just visual perspective but positional perspective to uh ascertain the dimensions of the earth because those extraordinary evidences that i mentioned a moment ago require they themselves to have some kind of you know for lack of a better word logical explanation and so as you see these extraordinary evidences present themselves instead of trying to find an alternate explanation that violates Occam's razor and makes things sound more complicated you would use a very consistent explanation which is that the earth is a globe um water is not in a perfect there's no such thing as a perfect surface for water uh the concept is that water appears flat across the vastness of the earth but as i said earlier and i think that is where i got cut off you cannot see from here to china you can't see from here to australia you might my friend from australia you cannot see the united states no matter how high you go okay and because of that you cannot presume that the earth is flat because the amount that you can see merely appears flat to you and then you come with all their explanations for all of the extraordinary evidence that you said requires an extraordinary claim one in eight and a half ago uh religious beliefs do not matter i mean that's just a red herring um you know we can talk about religious beliefs all day i don't really care you know so anyone that wants to buy into the fact that i believe that the earth is round or spherical based upon those extraordinary evidences but that's actually religion well you can redefine religion to mean whatever you want uh hey we believe that electricity powers devices that's a religious belief okay extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence if it's not religion okay hey look i'm able to test it i'm able to measure it i'm able to rely on it so that takes religion out the window um perspective does not grant you a license to simply use the word willy nilly oh perspective does not explain why the sun and the moon go beyond the horizon and under it and the idea of perspective would have to imply that something so far away would appear to go downward the further way that it is from you and that doesn't come 30 seconds and the last thing i think i said it's already there is no such thing as a law of convergence i've been looking this law of convergence up for like a while there's nothing in the laws of physics and if you reworded it wrong it is your responsibility to correct the wording and i'm done thank you so very much david uh for that wrap up of your open statement we are now going to move into open conversation but i do want to hand it over to you iron horses the first ball just to make sure that you would like to cover everything as we move into it but gentlemen the floor is indeed both of yours yeah thank you i mean yeah thanks for the difference um even the way we just said i can go um yeah i saw a couple of comments that said that i had to do my intro all over again too so i'm not going to because whether or not it went through we'll remain to be seen in the repeat that's nearly here not there um unfortunately it was all good we got everything but sweet sweet all good um yeah david well i don't know if you heard my first rebuttal we did or not that might have been lost with it as well but um he basically didn't understand anything as i said that the globe is the extraordinary claim though it requires extraordinary evidence he provided nothing um he keeps talking while he asked several times about the law of convergence now fair enough if you google such a thing there probably is no such thing as a law of convergence it's pretty much like if you google the law of common sense you know you can't just google the law of common sense and expect to find that it's going to be set down by somebody probably you know from 500 bc or whatever he's got a law written in his name of you know Pythagoras or somebody um the law of convergence is a simple simple thing that everybody sees if you just look down a hallway you look down a tunnel you can get your empty toilet paper rolled through and look through that the law of convergence says that the further away something is the smaller everything converges towards the far distant point and so it shouldn't have to be written as a law it is as simple as common sense and when it comes down to understanding how we see across the flat plainer earth then the law of convergence describes that everything beneath us will rise up or appear to ramp upwards you can see it in every single photograph ever you know that if the earth was a ball the water shouldn't be ramping up to eye level it should be curving away straight away it shouldn't get any further than three miles at the most but because we see it ramping up to eye level then the law of convergence means everything ramps up to eye level and everything above us ramps down but because we can see through the air but we can't see through the ground then anything that's further than that distance where the ground is ramped up to eye level will be obscured bottom first so the law of convergence says that the sun appears to set because it gets sufficiently far enough away that the things nearer to us start to obscure it and it applies to everything and the best example I can give is an ordinary tall building and any street any city anywhere you go if you walk towards this building you will see you have to look way up high just to the top of it as you walk away it appears to get lower and lower now if a cloud gets obscured by this building you would have to be mentally just incapable of comprehension of reality to think that the cloud itself has gotten lower than the building and yet the glober will try and tell you that the sun has gone beneath the horizon simply bigger as you can no longer see it it's exactly the same process the clouds are much higher than the building the sun is much higher than the horizon you just can't see it anymore that's the law of convergence all right so let me respond what what you're calling the law of convergence is merely a law of perspective and it yes it's just a convoluted way for you to explain how things proceed into the distance to what artists call a vanishing point and what I think physicists call a convergence point it's neither here nor there because the fact of the matter is when you are standing and you're still between five and a half and six feet tall on average the land that you see from here to the horizon is simply the land that is below you all the way up to the horizon if there is anything between you and that horizon that is six feet or higher it's going to obscure everything from you to that horizon that is below six feet so you've confused perspective with elevation and you've you've presumed it because you stand six feet that when you see the horizon in the distance you're seeing a horizon that what did you say uh ramps up to your eye level it's it doesn't ramp up your eye level the fact of the matter is you can't discern from that many miles away whether or not that horizon line is six feet high at your eye level or six feet lower it's too far away six feet from your point of view going so far away you you couldn't see it even with binoculars you couldn't see it even with a telescope you could probably barely see it even with your p900 or p1000 you can't you cannot see a six foot well i'll wait i'll wait you cannot see it's laughable but you could not tell me from where you're standing what you see at the horizon line whether it's six feet or not you can't discern that and say oh it's at eye level or it's not at eye level there could be something that is on the horizon line let me finish there's something that on the horizon line that is six feet lower than where you're standing and something else is six feet higher from that distance you can't tell and the only thing to make stuff level is gravity and your sense of balance because you have a sense of balance when you're trying to balance yourself you're able to discern from your own sense of balance in your ear and the fluid flowing in your ear when you're off balance that's all that you're doing and that's because of gravity the other thing that you made that was a was a mistake look don't you we stick to that point before we go ahead to your next one i mean we can pick whatever we want yeah because that's why for the convergence point it's a point so that six foot is where it's converged to a point because of your viewing height but if you get but if you get higher than six foot then that point gets a lot further you only have to double the distance it absolutely no it doesn't no it doesn't it just if you just looked a little higher you just looked a tiny bit higher from from where you're standing but if it's so far away i wouldn't like let's say i'm standing here i said by getting higher you can see further i didn't say but even if you were to get higher and you look beyond the distance you still can't discern and say oh gee uh that's not rising to my eye level because the key phrase that you're using is rising to my eye level yeah rising to your eye level is it no rising to your eye level is uh almost like a metaphorical concept nothing is rising what's happening is you know when you're out of balance because we're not saying actually rising we're saying it's visually rising to the eye level your eyes are simply pointing in that direction that's what the word horizontal means it's horizontal to the eye i'm talking about rising so your horizon will be very near to you you put your eyes on the water level you can't see past water level that's but you're again as the eye you get the first you will see it rises to eye level and that's exactly how it works and for you to go and say that if you use a telescope or a monopoly as you can't resolve it of course you're bloody well ken that's exactly what we've done this is what the flat earth has proven that if we get huge magnification of the zoom of looking towards the horizon we can see a lot further because our eyes do have limitations so they see beyond at the point of our limitations and if we get even higher still we can see even further and it still rises to our level so okay so you you well you you keep doing it once the tape is played back i'm gonna i'm gonna point it out in the comments you keep confusing distance with height you're using distance and height interchangeably in your argument no i get that i well we'll play back the tape and i'm gonna you change the distance you can see of course no that's not but that isn't the issue here the issue isn't whether that you can see further from a higher height the issue is whether that you can discern what you see because it's so far away to say oh it's rising to my my eye level because uh i'm six feet tall and i can see that far away oh now i'm on a small building that there was magnification i'm not saying i'm not saying whether or not you can actually see the little dot or see the little six foot man from far away what i'm saying is you cannot discern if i'm gonna say the fourth time you cannot discern something being eye level from that far away you can presume it and you can calculate it and you can measure which i would appreciate that if you would say hey this is eye level because i calculated and i measured it but you're not speaking on that level okay it's a natural discernment which doesn't exist from that distance you're you're confusing a ladder of debunk you're confusing the term eye level with the term actual level now eye level means eye level means visual so a visual thing about the rising part everything is visual okay that's how we see it's visual so if we use something like a Seattle light or a leveling device we can actually see our true height as it would be at that distance but that doesn't mean that convergence the law of convergence which is a part of the law of perspective means just like when you look down a hallway a long hallway everything converges upwards you're collaborating too much there's no convergence point everything goes towards a vanishing point but again so things appear to get smaller but you also got convergence where everything appears to converge to that point of no no it's not the things appear to convert no here what happens is let me speak let me speak what happens is you're confusing another thing you have objects that are man-made that follow a line let's say a street or a few blocks and the lines of those objects in our society we build 90 degree angle walls 90 degree angle buildings 90 degree angle windows we built that though that's not a natural thing we could have built we could have built amorphous looking huts for all that matter but we didn't so what happens is we're used to seeing things like that if you were to probably talk to people from other cultures they would probably have less of a either an appreciation or a knack for for catching on to that not that they couldn't because it's probably even natural for us to understand it but you're confusing perspective lines that you can see with like a sun beam or with buildings that have been built along a along a industrial plan with some kind of law and what i'm trying to get across to you is that has nothing to do with whether or not something rises or not it only rises if you look at if you look down then something will appear to rise if you look up it'll appear to fall that's all that is and so from the distance and we're wasting a lot of time on this but yeah it doesn't matter how far away something is if you are looking right at it then it's not at your eye level okay you've wasted a lot of time on that and basically i don't care what culture people come from if you're going to build something that is perpendicular to the ground then you have to have a flat and level surface to build from in the first place now you can build a building that's not a shape i'm not kidding do you want to build them like a dome or whatever you want to say well you won't be able to do that because you're saying no not and guys i'm saying that has nothing to do with your concept of seeing something guys being quiet while you're spoke ah you're interrupting me one more time guys i enjoy the enthusiasm but i'm going to pull you apart and it sounds like iron you were in the middle of something and so i'm going to let you finish your statement and we'll go back and forth again yeah thank you Amy because basically everything is built according to the flat and level surface that it's built upon in the first place if you're trying to build something across a curved earth well then that perpendicular will change over a period of time it doesn't change it's the same plum is plum no matter how far you go and this has been measured the greatest argument that i'll hear from a lot of globes is things like the Verrazano you know any sort of suspension bridge where they say that the the main columns lean away from each other and that proves curvature of the earth and yet you can go to that exact same city and find buildings even further apart than those and using laser measurements find that those same buildings are exactly perpendicular to one another so the reason suspension bridges are built that way is simply because it's a structural engineering thing to have very tall things with all the weight pushed down on them in the center to have them slightly leaning away they're the only bridges in the world that are built that way so everything is built perpendicular plum to the level surface of the earth so all that other nonsense that you rendered on with it's meaningless it's it's got no basis in reality may i respond okay so first of all you've confused local level surface with the universe or sorry the entire earth's level surface so it is obvious that buildings are built according to a level flat surface but is a local level flat surface the building that is built in new york city does not need dimensions and calculations from australia to know its level position okay you're presuming that they must be parallel to each other and you didn't even use the word parallel so i'm going to use it so there's your next mistake um the earth is i'm i don't know the calculations are but if it's 24 thousand miles and all of that i'm going to assume that each degree is i don't know about what 60 miles or something 60 to 70 miles now with that being the case a building isn't a mile wide a building is maybe 30 40 50 100 feet i don't care those dimensions are not requiring your concept of curvature to be calculated to such a degree that you're looking at the building's work and then on your last point when you say well hey they did a laser um calculation between this building and that building well let me tell you what's going to happen you find that example and then we're going to measure the next building and the next building and the next building and we're going to measure all the buildings around those buildings and the further out you measure you're going to see all of the laser distances diverge they're not going to be parallel and that's your presumption you presume parallel when there was none okay well that's your claim so you may know you made the claim about the laser i want to see this laser i want to see this experience i'm looking it up i can't find nothing about a laser that says hey all these buildings are level you might find one you might find one or two you might find one or two there are a couple miles apart that that the human human imperfections in building and the effects of wind and building settling the leaning tower piece of yeah you're probably out of the thousands upon thousands of buildings throughout the universe i mean throughout the world yeah you're gonna probably find a couple that are near each other that just happened to to whatever okay but that's not even that doesn't even say anything because you're still left with a gaping problem you see the boat go over the horizon you see the stars with the two axes of rotation okay you can't sit up here wave that away and i didn't even get to the good stuff which if i have time you're toast right yeah well i'll rebut but two of those then um you said boats over the horizon and as i've already suggested but we can use a powerful modern day zoom something that the ancient Greeks weren't privy to and we can see these boats and they were near the horizon the horizon does extend into infinity and we can see boats way way way way further than the naked eye because the globe curvature is based on the limitations of our ability to see where we're shown that's where the curve begins hang on you're just making claims and there's nothing to back them up like hey uh we measure plenty of proof that we can see way way further than the night and possibly see these are the things that they didn't have back in the day we have that knowledge in there i should have kept the note to see what your other one was because it's already gone but the thing is the boat goes over the horizon within our visual capability to see it so that there there's no relationship between how far can we see with or without a tool versus oh look the boat's going over the horizon because here's the thing if you're standing six feet over the sea level you're going to see that boat go over the horizon with binoculars or telescope after a few miles but if you're standing on top of the Burj Khalifa it's going to take probably a few thousand miles i don't know a few hundred miles at least to see the boat go over the horizon they says oh you obviously don't even know your own model you you don't know what the limits of curvature are like the i'm glad i don't know the precise calculation of numbers because it's not material to conversation i'm gonna bring you guys apart again so thanks so you brought up the Burj Khalifa now that's a great example because the Burj Khalifa at this current point of time is pretty much considered the world's tallest building now as we understand height if you stand beneath a tall building it looks extremely high now this one is one half of a mile high now if we follow the globe curvature calculations now these aren't my calculations these are yours these belong to everybody who lives we live on spinning spaceball hurtland through space is that our ball is slightly less than 25 thousand miles in circumference which means that there has to be a curvature scale that over a period of 90 miles has one mile of drop so that means you've got two Burj Khalifas one stacked on top of the other of drop at just 90 miles and yet if you got on the Burj Khalifa you can see way further than 90 miles if you get up in an aeroplane you can see way more than 90 miles and yet that should all be hidden behind a curvature drop of over a mile and that drop does not exist it's never been seen but that is your belief and so your belief is obviously a fantasy and therefore the globe is debunked because there is not a mile of drop to be seen within 90 miles of any vista that we're iterating on. Finish that statement and then uh David it's all yours. All right so a mile of drop to be seen within any 90 mile vista of anywhere we can see we can see way more than 90 miles anyway and a mile of drop is fucking huge. Thank you iron and then David the floor is all yours. All right so look look you have been at determining what you can and cannot see from the Burj Khalifa I have not determined that okay I don't need to know the exact calculations of the curvature calculator in order to know how far I should or shouldn't see under certain circumstances because here's the thing at some point you know that you're seeing that boat go over that horizon if you were to say to me well hey I saw the boat go over the horizon but I saw it go over the horizon at two miles up the earth is flat no that sounds absurd that just means that there's some other factors and a lack of experience to precisely determine where the curvature is supposed to obscure your view but that does not mean that there is a curvature that that just sounds absurd now I'm going to actually go to a particular thing here that fascinates me is this your your your flatter is this it do I do I have an understanding of how the flatter if it's supposed to look or is it it looks more like a presentation of how it might be mapped out yes what might be mapped out okay so now I want you to explain something to me why is it oh I'm sorry is the Sun local or is the Sun millions of miles away well it depends what by what you mean by local I mean do you do you go to your local store do you go to your local store 70 miles away do you call that a time left just give me a range of of distance we're gonna okay so I'm gonna go down to my local store to pick up some bread and milk and would I travel 70 miles and call that local can we can we not waste our time with trying to argue about what local means and you tell me 200 miles 2,000 miles 20,000 miles 200,000 miles how far away is the Sun it can't be greater than how many miles away well if i'm telling you that the Sun that we see give me a number is local but just give me a number we only see it 70 miles high and we see it through our atmosphere which is only 12 to 14 miles high now but but it doesn't mean that's where it is that's fine but you know that it's not a thousand miles away you you if i were to say hey the Sun is a thousand miles away you say no way no way no how as far as i'm saying the Sun might be three to four thousand miles away but that's just four million miles away okay so but is the Sun three to four million miles away no no it's about okay great great three to four thousand miles away now here you go buddy it doesn't you know you're trying to perspective you're trying to explain here where you see something from the bottom looking at this that's not going to work are you going to do is a person sitting on your little map looking up at the Sun to show you how the perspective works or are you gonna filibustering so try and to try and straw man well okay filibuster so here's what i'm doing here's your here's your here's your here's your son right now i want you to check this out it's going to be hard to see doesn't look like let's say i'm yeah let's say right here new york city all right that Sun is some thousands of miles away and it's this big in the sky is what a third of a degree i'm sorry yeah a third of a third of a degree i think whatever it is right and that Sun hold on that Sun goes from one part of this Earth to another on your flat earth and it stays the same size in the sky every single time the moon the same thing it's one third of the degree no matter how close or far away it is it's 4 000 miles away over here your flat earth is supposed to have a dimension of about what 36 000 miles so if i'm on if i'm in australia and it's sunrise for me and someone in japan sees the sunrise at the same time and they see that Sun is the same size something ain't flat you can't have a flat earth in that kind of circumstance with a local Sun either and then lastly um when you see the sunset it's just it was just the solstice the solstice it just passed so you're looking east for the sunrise and you're looking west for the sunset you're in australia and i'm in the united states how in the heck can you look directly east during sunrise and directly west during sunset and i can do the same thing and that Sun is supposed to be local not humanly possible not physically possible not even talk about math or science you just talk about perspective i'm done okay well i appreciate you trying to make an argument it's um you obviously prove that you're quite ignorant about the matter of things because the equinox is actually not the solstice but you call it the solstice it's not just the mix up for words these are very important factors you know the solstice is the turning point of the Sun getting above us and the Sun getting to its lowest point that's why solstice comes from the the you know the latin word that means turning point concepts not words so go ahead equinox comes from the word you know equal knocks which is night and equal lux which is light so it means equal day or night or an equinox is just what happened and when it comes to words well no no but how haven't finished mate when it comes to then directions what you think you're seeing it you know we are seeing through a very very tiny if you have a look at your paper map there and now you draw a little dot when you where where you live draw a tiny little dot and you you draw a small dot where you are where you are yeah yeah don't you don't have to show me your map I don't want to see right exactly where you are draw a dot there and then draw a circle around that dot that shows you your local horizon through your local horizon and then that's your field of perspective that you see every single day from sunrise to sunset then you think that you can see what after world and time every single day no you're only seeing your tiny tiny little dot of perspective which proves that the way we see the sun from sunrise to sunset is our local perspective we're not seeing half the world at a time yeah can you please like meet yourself or something that noise is annoying oh you hear noise okay yeah I'll mute myself no problem there thank you that'll be great um the point that we see from sunrise to sunset is always going to be local it's basically three or four miles from one side three or four miles to the other and it is not even a visible spec it's not even a pixel that you could put on that image to show and yet you think that the sun is showing over the entire 50 percent of the earth that you can see through that visual range um uh what was the other one that you said ah geez you keep you get a word in now let's let's well you keep on that sun antics made like no no no no i'm gonna do my antics okay look look let's get to this so you just say so yourself three to four hours right so here's where you make your mistake that's why you map four minutes oh my i'm sorry what you said three to four minutes you said ours i said miles or kilometers miles to the horizon to the horizon right so check this out check this out so i'm here in new york city or wherever right and i see the sunset okay when the sun sets at nine o'clock the sun is way over here next to australia right at sunset it's over australia on your flat uh uh it's over australia on a flat earth map it ain't it ain't high noon in australia if the sun's right here then it's high noon in australia if it's 12 o'clock for you my friend if it's 12 o'clock for you what's actually what time is it right now over there it's exactly 12 o'clock okay it is 2200 hours over here okay so depending on right so depending on what part of australia right so here's my problem here's your problem rather than my problem let me put that your problem right now it's not about perspective because your your point is no because we are on the ground let me we're on the ground we're looking up at the sun i try to get back to me let me finish come on bro now guys no one can hear you so i know what you hear so uh so david finish your point and then we'll hand it right back over to iron all right so your perspective is no worse than mine your perspective has equal weight to mine so just because i can see it uh sunsetting i see a sunset and here's the thing the sun sets from any person's perspective from a flat earth point of view maybe a dozen miles from the horizon the horizon is right there and you're seeing the sunset so you can't say that the sun is what a thousand miles away and then here's the killer let me show you this last one here the sun sets at the same exact time the sun rises in the same exact time in new york as it does way down here in chile okay so you pick one of those cities in chile and you see the sun rising and setting at the same time i'm not looking halfway between here and chile for a sunset i'm looking due east i'm looking check it out bro i'm looking this way well i'm looking come on i'm looking way out here way out here i'm not looking come on i'm not looking way down here but the chile person he's looking this way he's not looking way up here he's not looking way up there so you have a perspective contradiction in your point of view i'm done i'm done i apologize thank you wow my mind is actually absolutely blown by that that's just like oh how could i have not have seen that before like geez yeah we're looking across the flat surface to see the sunrise no we look up to see the celestials we see the sun advancing towards us and that makes it appear to rise up and while we may be looking in the same direction that same direction locally if you plotted that out on the a map as we have done that's exactly where we see your east is different from the person in chile or you might call it chile but we say in australia chile he's looking to a completely different east but he's still looking up and seeing the sun basically following the same path because that's how perspective works when you're looking from the down up to see things happening that's exactly how we're seeing the sun or anything that's high above us it is a matter of perspective so directions are irrelevant they're completely localized so the the here in australia if we look say south of east that's a completely different south of east if you drew it as a straight line to the person in chile he's looking at a complete from our perspective it would actually be looking slightly northwards but from their perspective it is south of east all of these things easily explain you know if you got a bunch of people in a big circle and that you said okay everybody your left is west and your right is east everybody has a different east and west from every person looking at each other and everybody looking towards the center they're looking towards the north which is completely different they're still looking at the same thing so we still call it north but their personal perspective of north is completely different and if they look outwards southwards their south is completely different from everybody else's so directions are just as subjective as everything else so if you kind of stand on a big big scale of the size of the earth then you're going to completely be believing that we're seeing the same thing when we're actually looking at something completely different okay so so look at what you just said you contradicted yourself you said everyone's looking at a different east right but there's a problem the sun can only be in one of those east at a time the fact is when you say hey it's all a matter of perspective everyone's perspective is different the sun can only be in one spot it can only be in one position so if if hold on you done had all that floor time so if the sun is somewhere in between this everyone i would be looking south i would be looking southeast and the people in chile would be looking northeast during the equinox hey you know i'm going to give you a free point i should have said equinox in our solstice but that's not what happens the people aren't looking in different perspectives they're looking in the same direction the person i just told you that they are yes they are personal version let me finish my floor man you had your time i got chest eyes rightfully so for interruption but your choice is to gait something i've already just no no let me finish tell me here's a thing your version is right when i'm just told you how wrong you were and with that because uh david we're going to let you finish your statement and then we're going to throw the ball right back over you did not tell me how wrong i was you see me arbitrarily decided that hey he's looking east but his east is not really due east but my east is due east and what i'm trying to get across to you is that the people are looking at the sun facing their due east both of them at the same time even though on a sphere and not on a flat plane two lines will converge since you're a flat earther that does not apply to you so you can't use that argument so they're parallel to each other the two people that are looking due east are parallel to each other on the flat earth i'm looking at it right here it's well as i just said if you've got a range of concentric circles coming out from the north pole as we see it and they they still consider east to be the same even though for each person from a different longitude line is looking at a different east because it's a circle the sun is moving in the arc in the circle around us so what i see is east and a person over in south america sees as east is a completely different direction which is called the same because it's on the same circle but it doesn't mean it's the slow exact direction no the line the tangent line at their position is is the difference you're you're again you're ignoring a certain concept when you're at a point on a circle or on i'm ignoring a second i am explaining what you're ignoring with clarity you have what's called a tangent line anytime there's a straight line that that goes across a circle or position or a spot on a circle or on a sphere that is a tangent line now it's hard to call this a tangent line i think this is called something like a cord or whatever it doesn't matter just like i i got the word solstice and would not confuse but what i'm trying to get across you is that when the person in one part of the world is looking to east and i put this line too high up so forget that line let's just use this line forget about the tilt of your and isn't your earth tilted at like 23.40 degrees how can it be the same if the two people that are on the earth are tilted in the same 23 degrees i'm tilted at 23 degrees along the other person tilted and that's only that's only relative to being parallel with the earth's rotation to the sun i can still look at the sun and still see it over there but no no no but your ball has got like 8 000 miles of fucking diameter the sun is 93 million miles away it's like i don't have a huge hump isn't it like no it's not like going over huge hump no it's not how it is he's in a completely different not you know no because you because you have you have latitude and longitude and you're and you're ignoring the fact that the people are looking in the same direction from a for people are looking in the same direction to an object that is very far away and there is no hump you have to assume then the curvature of the earth there is a massive pump it's a massive pump yeah that's called nights when it's night time that's the hump no no no that's the hump a circle is all hump everywhere it's hump yeah but the hump isn't always around you or else you would be inside of a boat yeah compared to then at 90 degrees the midday side compared to the other i'm 180 degrees if that's tilted it's my morning noon and night it's got a completely different line of sight towards the sun because of this freaking hump and this that's called nights the third time you're wasting your time that's night i get what you're saying but that doesn't apply i'm talking about i'm talking about day i'm not even talking about the night so when you're talking about day sunset when you talk about day you're confusing people looking at each other from far away with the people looking at a far away sun if i'm trying to look at the person from chile yeah there's a hump of earth in between me and chile but that hump does not mean that the distance far away cannot be seen for that but you're talking about a longer cheered line i'm i'm also talking about i'm just like so system equinox it's a word but i'm describing to you what happens you can take the word to say it's a long you don't understand the latitude of the latitude it don't matter what matters is that you don't understand what i'm talking about here okay you you and that word but you're ignoring the constant same long cheered line so you're going to see the sunrise at the same time and you're going to be looking at these and you're going to see it at the same time but that earth is still at the 23.4 degree tilt but people six thousand miles away well that tilt changes the view of the hump no it doesn't i'm not looking at a hump i'm looking at a sun in the sky direction at midday that's no it's not see here's the thing at some point okay let me let me speak at some point the sun will be visible high in the sky at some point so you keep talking about this hump at some points listen at some point the sun is visible to the people from chile to the united states it's visible high in the sky so somewhere between high the sky and your hump is sunrise and sunset somewhere you pick the time you pick the the distance okay i don't care the time is the equinox the time is the equinox okay that is a day over a period of a month in a year roll you see the sun your day i think it could have been it could have been June 30th it could have been in May just because it don't matter exactly i'm in that we're going to break you both the point in that iron the ball is yours and then when you're done back to david right yeah so we got this ball and it's got this circumference and so from one side to the other from north side to south side we've got about a 12 000 mile curve so the equator is 12 000 is 6 000 miles either side so you're talking about new york and chile and they're both looking due east to see the sun come up now at midday that curve means that the shadow cast from the sun because of the curve should be showing completely different things and yet on your model you claim that the shadows are still directly overhead casting no shadow at midday on that particular day it doesn't work because of the curve it's a 8 000 yeah 8 000 mile diameter so you've got 6 000 miles to the middle 6 000 to the other side let's say we're both at 3 000 miles away from it that angle of shadows should be completely different but we still call the equinox because we've got equal day and night it doesn't work on a ball it can work on the flat surface because the sun is at the exact center of its personal rotation going around above and below us and that's why we have an equinox on a flat and stationary earth it does not work on a ball but obviously you don't really like that you don't really don't waste our time let's just get right to it what i'm talking about here come on man let's just get right to it okay so you confuse shadows at sunrise with shadows at midday so there's your first to say let me finish it's not shadows it's operations huh the direction is you're saying that on this on the equinox i'm gonna tell you what i'm going to say let me say what i'm going to say it's the midday shadow at sunrise go ahead all right so anyway the shadows on sunrise during equinox are going parallel dude i didn't finish like my first statement gonna pull you guys apart again and so david i'm gonna give the ball to you and then it's gonna go right back to iron you have been so fair i greatly appreciate it thank you so um yeah so anyway the shadows at sunrise will they be parallel i don't know i believe they will be but that doesn't matter because come midday the shadows are not parallel well what happened is you'll see the shadows if you were to look at both positions the shadows would slightly diverge from each other not by much but they would slightly diverge from each other well actually no they would diverge from each other quite a bit at midday but well that's the point and so when you have this argument about shadows in their positions you're still ignoring something i see directly east the same parallel direction that someone 6000 miles away can see and there's another problem your sun and moon do not change size in the sky they don't appear larger and smaller depending on how close you presume that they are or how far away they are and that is far worse okay i i could go on the the if you say that the moon is flat i think i think i'm not done i'm not done i give my three minutes man the first argument was we're talking about the equinox and the sun appearing to rise due east and all you could talk about was shadows at sunrise you don't have shadows at sunrise you know like we're talking about directional things at the equinox where the sun appears to rise personally from each perspective and that's what happens is everything to do with looking at the sun is a personal perspective thing and that's why when it's the sun's height to everybody across our whole wide world we'll see it rising at the same direction on that particular day and setting at the same time of that particular day and unless you had this curvature at that same time then that's why you don't see a shadow at midday on the equinoxes talking about shadows all of a sudden you're the one who's mentioned shadows that's because you mentioned them first i'm petty only in the midday time because at the midday time is when you can tell where the shadow should be and if it's directly overhead you will have my shadow and that's what happens and the only place it can be directly overhead with no shadow is between the tropic of cancer and the tropic of cancer camphor corn uh uh near the equator that's the only way you can never see a shadow when it's directly overhead and that depends on which day of the year you're talking about so there that's how we have necronox yes yeah but but but in united states are not in between the uh the the tropics so that doesn't apply here i'm i'm trying to get across to you is that you you see a personal perspective now why can't i see you the same size that i can see my best friend i my best friend he's right there why can't you see him with your personal perspective the sign is this guy no matter where you are on earth and it's the same size for everyone on earth at all times the same thing with the moon the only divergence someone in the chat yes i get it there's a two percent variation depending on where you are on earth whatever okay the the fact of the matter is you're not looking at the moon or the sun in the sky and going wow it's it's a lot closer now how do you know because the earth is flat and it's only a couple thousand miles away i mean what happened to pythagorean theorem what happened to to to your law of perspective your law of convergence your law of convergence you have contradicted yourself by bringing up this personal perspective your personal perspective destroys your concept of the law of convergence okay well well no it doesn't for a start because as i've already explained to you that our personal perspective is through a very very tiny field of view as i said well if you could draw a dot on your map to see how far your horizon is from one side to the other it's it's very very tiny if you drew a circle around it and you zoomed out it won't be very long before that circle itself has disappeared it doesn't even exist as a tiny pixel but the moon does okay so as you zoom out you see virtually your field of view is very very tiny so to say that then that the sun and moon should appear to change in angular size i mean there's no reason whatsoever why they should considering that both of them are projections that we see through the atmosphere and our atmosphere itself is actually quite near and we can only see you know well if i look out here i've got a really good long vista i can see maybe five kilometers why does it make it bigger why does it make it bigger why does it see if if if it were atmospheric whatever whatever you just said just whatever it is yeah i don't care why well because well because the atmosphere itself doesn't hit change i should see a double i should see a triple the constant height the atmosphere is a constant height so whatever apparition that we are seeing through the atmosphere is going to remain constant if you can see a really really really long far distance away you will see the sun or the moon appear to get smaller but we just can't see that far it's just not possible wait wait wait wait wait hold up hold up here's your moon and sun so at some point the the sun let's just say very africa no no no your your moon or sun is somewhere over africa right right and then i'm way over here and you're trying to tell me oh it doesn't change in size well wait a minute isn't there another flat earth thing about the the sun and the moon get so far away that they only appear to go under the earth they only appear to go down into the perspective and disappear so at some point the the sun and the moon from let's say sunrise to sunset so let's say for you sunrise is at 9 a.m and sunset is at 8 p.m whatever you've got 14 hours 13 hours 12 hours of this sun going across the sky and 12 hours is literally for you for anyone it's from one side of this earth to the other okay and you're trying to tell me as this sun is going around it doesn't change shape it doesn't i can't do the circle it it doesn't change shape it doesn't change size but then all of a sudden it gets to sunset and it just it just shrinks within a course of like 45 minutes and then all of a sudden so basically you say hey there's personal perspective everybody personal perspective your son and my son we're all the same son and um that's how it is but come sunrise and sunset up law of convergence law of convergence no you've actually presented a very strong argument there but why we actually um might have a domed apricot about it because if it was domed then that's exactly who would see it that's why it's not don't do that when we go to a planetarium that's exactly why they project everything onto a dome bridge because that gives us a realistic presentation of how it looks and so if we've got this dome above us and that's exactly how we'd be looking up and seeing it from every perspective and everybody gets their own personal perspective from far beneath on the flat earth looking up at it you've got even in the even in the planetarium if you're on one side of that planetarium you look at the little model of the earth i'm sorry model of the moon it looks like this if you look from another perspective it looks like this like an oval shape and if you're if it's behind you you can't see it and that's another problem that you have with this whole personal perspective yeah it is personal perspective i'm seen up here watch this watch this i'm here i'm here let's say i'm living in kylo i'm i'm gonna let so david i'm gonna let you make your uh that point final point we have about two or three minutes before we go into the q and a i do want to remind all of our audience thank you for listening and keep on sending those questions in at amy newman for the q and a that's about to happen but david it looked like you were about to make a final point about something and then iron i want to hand it right back over to you guys yours i hope i made you a lot of money today with those superchats now so so uh you're in kyro and it's the moon is is like let's say on the tropic of uh capricorn i can't i forget which one is on the south so your north of the moon and the moon on your flat earth is at the tropic of capricorn right so if i'm in kyro and i look up at the moon i'm going to see this side of the moon but the people in i don't know mozan beak or in angola they see this side of the moon oh but that doesn't happen in reality personal perspective you've just proven that you've got absolutely no idea how perspective works from being on the surface of something down low looking up at things that look down upon us so when we're looking up at the moon we're looking up at the bottom side of it from anywhere on earth and therefore we're going to see the exact same bottom side that anywhere else on earth would see you know you you still think we're living in outer space or something and and that everything is in this space world type of thing oh god what a moron i can't believe that this guy presented himself as a serious debate even if it's from high above you have a perspective that distorts its image you cannot claim that it looks the same for everyone from all over the earth when the moon is right here on one side of the earth and you're way over on the other side of the earth you're seeing the same face we're not looking down from above are we we're looking there we're looking from down looking up and that's where half is down it up our relative i can be your down is my up it doesn't matter i'm still looking at it from a distance shut up you got no idea when you're looking up at something it's going to be a completely different view from somebody from the other side of a football field looking up at the same thing if something is close we're all looking up you just uh you know of the flat earth and you can't even do that properly well is the saying no matter which direction i look at it from i'm going to thank both of our interlocutors for that lively back and forth i enjoyed it but with that i am going to let each of our interlocutors uh have a moment to say uh what they got going on the interwebs and most importantly what their final thoughts are on the subject i see iron horse is up for just a second so i'm going to actually uh defer to you david for your closing statement the floor is yours before we move into the q and a okay well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and and hey we all got it but if you don't appreciate that extraordinary evidence we take it for granted because you know we're so advanced as a society and that's all fine and good but i know myself when i saw the ship go over the horizon i was fascinated and the other thing that fascinates me is when i use a telescope and i can see satyr i can see satyr's rings i can see jupiter i can see jupiter's moons and i can see jupiter's um the bands so jupiter so that's extraordinary okay so if we cannot respect that then we're not being honest when we have our conversation um and then as far as this other stuff goes about perspective perspective is not some words you can just throw out like magic okay perspective says consistent and wherever your eyes are looking is your vanishing point wherever your your wherever you're looking at is your is your level okay gravity is what makes you feel it as far as the horizon goes you're balanced so that when you are feeling balanced it's you know on the same plane as the horizon and that's that's because of gravity and i don't think it'll work thank you so very much david for that closing statement looks like iron thank you for joining us both interlocutors but if you would like what do you got going on in the inner webs and more importantly what are your final thoughts on the topic yes um well obviously we've got another example here somebody who's just a faithful believer in a globe earth they got no evidence whatsoever at the very most they try to debunk flat earth observations he doesn't understand his own model he doesn't understand perspective he doesn't understand how we would see things from our personal point of view it's very typical of every single globe defender ever come across is that they think that they found some sort of low hanging fruit when they come across and say oh we'll attack this flat earth and make ourselves look good he's just turned around and made himself look like yet another complete and the art of full on the internet publicly for all to see the flat earth's truth is never going to go away it is here to stay this is something it's huge it's profound and it means a lot to us because we know that this earth actually is a seriously it's here for a purpose we're all here for a purpose and anybody wants to try and believe that we're on a spinning ball and insignificant in outer space means nothing all the sun's gonna blow up the world's gonna wear all this whole shit these are all just fear based projections of people but when you come to your senses when you understand reality you lose all the fear and flat earth reality is basically it is the saviour of the world thank you so very much iron i do want to remind everyone out there that both of their links are in the description below i also want to send love and all the appreciation out there for everyone liking and subscribing however we are moving into the q and a section in fact a two dollar super chat coming in from deej iron horse versus iron man looks like you got a fan out there oh iron mania yeah i guess i get them a lot thank you andrace for 50 uh from i think that's south korean question for iron horse does the sun set slightly north or slightly south of due west this time of the year the sun doesn't really do either it all direction is a parent direction as i keep trying to explain there is no east there is no west there is no north there is no south okay there is a setting on a longer turtle line for example yes that we can look towards north and that is the fixed center of their earth but everything else is subjective and so where we see the sun is always going to be in an apparent place and so it might apparently appear to be set south to us from west at this time of year now that we're coming towards our summer but it doesn't mean that's where it actually is it's just where it appears to us from our very very tiny point of view all right am i allowed to say anything when the super chat is asking someone else so you are absolutely around to respond however because it was his directed at him he does get a final statement afterwards all right cool so you know all this stuff about truth and then it gets eliminated when you say oh it's all subjective so you get to be subjective and absolute at your convenience that is not objective and that is not evidence based that is simply arbitrary and that does not get you a valid argument and then iron if you would like to have a final few seconds yeah that's his point of view but um i will stand behind my my opinion that everything is subjective i've recently uploaded a video a few weeks back uh where i talk about the apparent position of the sun and the sun does not have a position everything is apparent because if you walked across a beach for example as the sun is setting you will see the sunlight reflecting across the water towards you and as you keep on walking it will keep on appearing to reflect towards you so that means if there's a million different people on this beach they will say a million different reflections of water of the sun across the water to them and which one is real every single one of the reflections that is the problem is then then reality is subjective and it depends upon each and every individual viewer and every single individual viewer's point of perspective is just as real as everybody else's but they're all no one is saying that the sun is in the water no one is saying that the sun is in the water no no but it's the reflection of the sunlight across the water the sunlight reflecting across the water is real to them and no one is the no no no it's good sending love to both of you guys um and all of the people that are sending us love and support super chat and chat $2 super chat from Dawkinator it was the glober t-jump that fled from iron horse spicy i will say it did see david was super excited to be in the debate and a t-jump was kind of deferring to his friend here but i actually think that uh there was a lot of excitement globe and flat earth and so send in love two dollar dawkinator the globe religion of david is being exposed oh my uh oh gosh you use uh observation and measurements and try to do methods to verify information and that's the religion so hey what can you do hey i worship truth thank you do you do you have any actually observed measurements and observations that you can talk about or you're just going to talk about assume you have them but present absolutely nothing to say that you do mean well first of all if you want to talk about the vastness of earth absolutely not not in this conversation i'd have to take the camera with me outside which is so you're talking about assumption no no i'm not talking about assumptions i okay let me ask you something why do i see why do i see with a telescope Saturn's rings when the stars on a flat earth model are supposed to be just points of light why am i saying defined shapes of Jupiter and planets orbiting around it when it's supposed to be just why does venus look like a teeny tiny moon going through waxing and waning phases if the planets are just moving stars and not actual objects were you reading that i mean obviously no i use my own telescope and i saw when we're talking about the earth when we're talking about the earth we're talking about the earth we're not talking about the things we can see through the telescope looking up at the sky yeah but the thing about the thing about it oh no no no i don't know let you finish whatever you're interrupting to let you say i'll let you finish but then david will have the final word and then we'll move it on to the next question yeah yeah he's just talking about completely relevancies that have nothing to do with the earth itself they're just talking about things that we can look up and see through telescope when we're talking about the earth show me evidence curvature motion and we'll go from there okay so you're in a place of you're in a place of earth where you see a different area of stars going around an axis of rotation called the southern cross and i am in an area of the earth where i can see some of the same stars that you can see and in fact over time at night we can both compare our measurements of time and positions of those stars that lets us know what kind of surface we're on that is evidence i cannot sit up here and say i'm on a cubed earth or i'm on a triangular shaped earth or i'm on a flat earth when the way that the stars move across the sky follows a gradual pattern that shows that we have to be on spherical earth uh and you have to do it then you got a few seconds ten seconds then you have to have it five seconds it's talking about everything actually as over southern cross is stationary it's not we see it moving through the night so um you see it move this much yeah we see it actually rotates on its axis you're talking about you know you wouldn't even mention the proper name of octanes yeah the southern cross there is a point in space that the stars don't rotate around but they've finished that no no finish that last sentence and yeah there's a point in space that those stars constantly rotate around never changes it will never change in your lifetime rather not so the octanes the southern cross is right at that point is irrelevant it's just another star that's going around that central point and on that thank you for both of our analogators we're moving forward to five dollars from thunderstorm question for all three though it would be all two what actual shape is the earth is it a flattened sphere a ellipsoid also thanks for the debate sending so much love thunderstorm and either of you um whoever wants to go first but what actual shape is the earth is it a flattened spheroid ellipsoid i'm on the earth is exactly the same yeah come on the earth is obviously has topography uh it is the shape that it is of the mountains the land the cliffs the hills the valleys that's all those things but it's all above water level as we call sea level what about the stuff that's under the sea that is made of dirt and rock that's below sea level it's below sea level course topography there's stuff right so above sea level has nothing to do with you to turn it without the earth is flat or spherical it just means as far as you can see you see water you see land above you see land below and you presume that there's nothing beyond your point of view and your point of view travels with you and you assume that it's all flat because that area around your point of view appears flat for you and so iron i'm gonna let you have one more if you're about to say something and david one more because it was addressed to both of you but then we're moving on yeah for sure like you can absolutely have topography beneath sea level as well that doesn't prove a thing but water itself proves the level and that's how we measure land level is you know the land height is above water level so we don't dispute that there's topography also underwater there's topography above water so flat earth is really it's a poor name it's poorly called and that's why i always use the term stationary plainer earth because we're not moving it's a plain that everything's on and that is our and then david says on the question yeah so um the earth is spherical obviously and um you know you see things that you cannot explain any other way you cannot explain the sun by saying oh the sun looks the same size as a personal perspective you can't explain sunsets and sunrises by talking about perspective doing weird things the perspective doesn't do okay you have all these elements that you put in on answering the question i am answering the question yeah he asked what was the shape of the earth so the fact of the matter is is that when you look at all these elements that are evidence extraordinary evidences of a flat earth perspective of extraordinary evidence of a spherical earth from a flat earthers perspective you end up with a situation of the earth being a globe or you got a thousand different other reasons like magic and stuff and on that note uh two dollars super chat from dig a comet and spicy the answers are hidden in iron horses hot tub and unless you have a comment we are moving forward mr monster this morning but um i decided to hop out of it just for the sake of my appointment yes i don't like to embarrass people too much five dollars super hey guess what you uh you avoid it making a fool of yourself but you certainly didn't have to embarrass anyone today great job for sure there we go last word mr monster for five dollars what do both think of what do both of you think of the dark satellite that precisely hit a meteor is that not evidence of space yeah i don't believe that there is such a thing as meteors and um the whole evidence of what you know something hitting what yeah there's no evidence of it we think a lot of cdi sort of stuff but honestly when it comes down to actual things in space um it's it's pretty short and far between on the ground so if if if you have a telescope and you were to see that meteor in the telescope would you acknowledge that that meteor exists then look we can talk about all sorts of what it helps uh situations but the thing is we have to say it in the right place all right so basically it's it's it's kind of like our our former president donald trump if he didn't think it it didn't happen but it's only true if he thinks that it's true stuff can only happen if you want it to happen i'm asking you about stuff that we've done and because i'm not the person that literally did it you act like everyone else is lying everyone else out there who had a telescope who saw that meteor is lying that's it's sorry that's insane if they'd like to prevent evidence for it and just end it soon they already did i can try and analyze it and see for myself but as far as i'm concerned it never happened but what what's your level of analysis like you have to literally get into the spaceship and like oh hey you know what i see i mean what you gotta like have you have to have some kind of like everybody can have a body cam everybody can have a body cam everyone can have a webcam and they can pan around 360 that's never been done on the iss on your period we're moving forward uh five dollars uh coming in spicy if you argue with flurfs i recommend you use solid work slash auto cad to demo angles perspective math dimensions and universe sandbox to demo the solid work demo man i'm too lazy to do all that i will admit i should i should have i should have used something like that adobe something or other or macro media whatever but you know what this is more than enough i am very satisfied with the way that i caught him in two contradictions so i mean hey magic personal perspective i can't do anything with that with solid works yeah that's the trouble isn't it that every single blober has to appeal to some sort of authority but but all they can do then is laugh and mock at the people who use reality who use a real personal perspective because that's all we've got all you've got is your personal perspective where you got somebody else's personal perspective if you're going to appeal to their authority but if you're gonna go and appeal to a whole bunch of nonsense that's designed to fit a certain model because that's how they want it to be then yeah you're gonna live in fantasy land forever am i allowed to rebuttal so you are because that seems to be technically for you david all right so you know what he's doing iron horse to the audience what he's doing is he's trying to compare a person's personal perspective which is simply their ability to see things with his skepticism or really his cynicism about anyone else's point of view beyond their sight beyond their naked sight so anything that uses a computer that uses uh photography that uses technology he's skeptical but he wants you to trust his personal perspective and his concept of personal perspective and then assume assume that that is sufficient to explain the vastness of the universe itself unbelievable literally and on that thank you for the continued super chats everyone two dollars nominal can david tell us about the law of dark matter no there's no law of dark matter what what what law of dark matters actually let me look this up maybe there is a law of dark matter random person with a super chair the faranda person tells me some stuff that i've like never heard like law of convergence law of dark matter let me finish my being here bro which depends upon dark matter can hear either of you so pulling it back apart yeah so let me finish what i was saying let me finish what i said it was directed towards you so there is no law of dark matter but the idea of dark matter explaining why galaxies move the way that they do and why the the the the galactic of the way the galaxies all converge and and turn into little filaments of over the vastness of space or whatever i mean that's that's interesting but that's not really do they get paid huh and do they get paid well when you okay if i were to tell you wait wait wait wait wait wait wait hold on hold on let me find some of this come on man if you don't understand what dark matter this is not a perfect cylinder this is not a perfect cylinder it's slightly oblong okay but the but the oblongness is probably one one thousandth of its dimension one one thousandth of its height is oblong from one side to the other that's all the guy was saying it's pear shape but the but the difference between the difference between one side of the earth and the other was by what 50 miles maybe 25 miles and that you exaggerated because he's the word cater just like before you use those other words you use these words out of proportion to what they're intended to be used and we're going to move forward because now i have a question back over to let's get some ten dollars higher five dollars if you chat send in love sigma uh how high up is the huge pocket of helium trapped by the dome where it has been collecting for six thousand years is there a pocket of hydrogen above that who was that addressed um that was from sigma i do believe that is addressed to you right yeah so obviously we've got lighter than the gasses and if they're lighter than there then that means basically anti-gravity which means that gravity has no say over them so if we are traversing through the vacuum of space and all of these gasses are just going to be lost and in fact air itself is lighter than gravity so therefore all air should also be lost but if we use some common sense and realize that we're sitting on the stationary plane earth at the bottom of our observable universe um then obviously everything has a density gradient and if it does reach a physical firmament as what we believe there is potentially once that gets high enough that these gasses might get so cold that they freeze into a certain form of ice then the helium itself is going to hit that and it's going to create a reverse pressure gradient and that's how we have air pressure on the stationary plane earth we cannot have it on a ball hurtling through a vacuum of space it just would not exist it would all be lost so very dramatic day where is all the helium that people are supposed to be breathing like there should be a lot of helium and there should be helium vortexes and we're going to ask a question so iron answer that question uh and then we're moving on to the next yeah we're moving on to that obviously helium is the lighter than air and so where our air is where our pressure gradient exists is the air that we breathe in what we call the homosphere and yeah no Nintendo is intended towards you day where what about that reverse pressure gradient you were talking about there buddy now now questions can go on endlessly as much as i like them so uh we are going to actually move to sigma no oh i enjoy this this has actually been a fun thing like it's awesome man another question from sigma iron horse help fix our tools why can i per measure perfectly vertical towers diverging at the top compared to the bottom any structures using all tools well let me interested to say that and if he has um some serious results about that that'd be great to say because as far as i know we've we've done all sorts of measurements i'll just suggest that these towers are possibly tapered just like they are on those suspension bridges i've talked about but if you've got some evident proof that they actually do diverge that'd be interesting because one of the very first things that got me interested in understanding the nature of our work in the first place was that we were suspending plumbovs deep into the earth a mild deep and they get further apart at the bottom so you know like this is what got me started on it in the first place over 30 years ago 35 years ago is that sort of idea made me start to think and as soon as you start thinking outside the box of everything that we're told and if you can appreciate that that means that our center of gravity is actually 40 000 miles outside of the earth on the other side of it in every direction nothing adds up on the globe but it it still works for a planet i know you're about to say something but it looks like it's a comment that'll end up being for both of you five dollars super chat david just open your blinds oh i'm having fun said open your blinds so we can see on live stream that it's dark for you and day for him show more stuff hey before i start doing weird stuff like that uh listen it's funny how you can say stuff and we believe you we're supposed to just believe that you're telling the truth hey you know i started flat earth thinking when i saw two plumbovs go down into the earth and they were far apart everything's the opposite but we're supposed to believe you're telling the truth but when we try to show you evidence like photographs taken from far enough away to show the earth's curvature it's well how do we know that's true how do we know that's factual and one thing to flat earth is love to do they can always just opt out oh believe what you want to believe it's this right if you don't want to believe it that's fine now it don't matter and i don't i want to give you a chance to respond because it does seem like it was a spicy comment towards you there it seems like it's a little bit triggered here and um yeah i've got evidence for it i've got evidence for it i've i've read the book on my own channel it's called secret of the ages it's by a person called brinsley lepo trench and he was looking for evidence of a hollow earth and he was actually looking for it going the other way that it was actually hollow underneath us as as opposed to the evidence he presented which started to make me think what if we are on the inside of a massive ball and the evidence backs the fact that we if anything if we are on a sphere we're on the inside of it because everything goes outwards if you use centripetal force to push things outwards that explains why rain falls down it's not falling down it's falling outwards the water will still find us level that sort of makes sense and there are other people who are actually concave earthy um i i actually went beyond concave earth from 30 years ago because i believe that the sun setting itself doesn't make sense you know if it sets it's it's purely done to perspective on the concave earth it would seem to go back upwards again so you know i just use rational common sense to to understand everything and it's not like i believe that wasn't rational it is rational because it's what you say it was not rational bro it being a data scientist who did those experiments with the plumbobs down into the earth found it got further apart further and i don't actually no i'm gonna break up because you allowed me to bring up a sunset question not only was it exactly in order but you wanted that fantastic ten dollar super chat thank you so very much bitter truth for the support uh bitter truth thank you sunset in usa same time sunrise in other country then set rise to next country basically telling us earth is globe iron you stick on flat earth can you explain why you think that let me read that one more time succinctly sunset in usa same time sunrise in other country then same rise uh same time precisely to rise to next country basically telling us earth is globe iron you stick on flat earth can you explain why you think that yeah sure like i i'm pretty sure i explained this even in the last debate i was on here the other day with um often who yeah we we basically chance the um globe earth is with that one as well but it's a simple fact that the earth is really big you know like what are we talking about a 25 000 mile diameter circumference sorry about the equator that's huge our uh site of view from one side to the other is only four or five miles at the most so as the sun goes around the equator every single day then it is basically like the hour hand of a 24 hour clock so we got a time zones where it's above is 12 midday when it's setting to our point of view it's our 6 p.m where it gets another six hours away then that's then midday it goes around and around and around and makes perfect sense on the flattened station of earth it makes zero sense on the globe earth for the very reason that i said is that if we ourselves are spinning on our axis and going around sun for six months and using a clock we use a 24 hour clock to measure time every single day the clock is our fixed position so if we're six months later on the other side of the sun according to the clock our midday must be midnight it's as simple as that the fixed mechanical clock disproves the globe earth as clear as day and on that note thank you so very much bit of truth but a five dollar super chat from coffee mom can iron horse show us a flat earth model that accounts for the observable facts about reality an actual model not an explanation of a model well it proves itself that the examinable facts of reality proves itself oh my god how do i present the model that presents reality reality exists David do you have some evidence to back up your plane David like at full scale the atmosphere exists at full scale if i tried to put that into a model then it would no longer be the same atmosphere anymore we're talking about something completely different but at full scale it works exactly as we deserve it but you can't apply that thinking to understand the shape of the earth being a globe you can't use that same type of thinking that you just described to say you know what at full scale at full scale i can understand why i can't really see the curvature of the earth that is 24 000 miles in uh circumference from six feet high or a couple dozen miles high and iron horse what is the angle for it was your question so it's going to be your final answer but on that we will be moving forward but it's all yours yeah thank you because on that model then why are we seeing the same stars 180 degrees away from the sun looking out at night six months later looking 180 degrees out the other way from the sun why are we seeing the exact same constellations that we've seen all year round like we shouldn't it you'd be glad why because the whole entire universe goes around the sun as well with the earth no because the stars are very far away move on Amy yep there you go on that five dollars super chat sending love out there once again for not all of our supporters but our interlocutors for answering these questions five dollars question from iron horse wouldn't it be weird to fly west from Perth and land in Sydney that would be very weird because we don't do that when you're going to fly west you actually fly west then you'd head towards South Africa now Sydney is towards the east so if you if you wanted to fly to Sydney you'd fly east and it's got nothing to do with the earth moving beneath you it would be do exactly the same using the exact same airspeed as the plane is capable of flying whichever direction you flew and the earth is not going to move beneath you you don't you don't understand that they use more gas to fly one way than it would the other you land iron horse last word support your claim well it's a question so it'll go back for it sure let's get the evidence sure but he doesn't have time to show it so iron horse right okay we're at least in that that frame of calling the airline forward so we're going to move forward with two dollars uh oh the one-liners keep on coming in but we enjoy the support as well Taikidi Wahidi debating Russell Crowe on set thank you so very much Decepticons forever I apologize for what um for what I did to you with the last store movie I apologize we we had a lot of potential with with Zeus that's a Avengers 285 that's all we had to do but you know I wanted to do something different and we're going to keep on moving forward Sigma sending in more love with a ten dollar super chat why does something in a vacuum chamber fall as fast as the same object out of the chamber if there's no air density inside the chamber if density is a resistive force what begins the motion okay then let's just ask or answer that with another question and say then if we use the same object with a parachute inside of a vacuum is it still going to have the same resistance as it would inside the medium of air and of course inside the medium of air air has some amount of resistance and it will fall slower you don't inside of a vacuum the parachute will be meaningless because there's no resistance the resistance is the only force may I rebuttal if the resistance was the only force then why don't the things fall in different directions inside of a vacuum but because of that question he does have to have the last answer I want to have a laugh yes what do you mean by different direction there's a universal up there's a universal down and everything universally made out of everything universally falls oh nobody makes it up that's what we observe everything right universally falls down unless it's resisted by something more than to prevent it from doing it's a university it's the universal thing we don't call it grabbing we call it the universal thing okay got you bro and then the universal thing last word iron get me iron come on I sure did I made a fool of myself there we go it's the universal send and love to both of our interlocutors whose links are in the description below but a a one million fake dollar super chat from sideshow nav uh just like whose line is anywhere the points don't matter you are rocking it Amy and from Dingle Bellio's master of moderation thank you so very much sideshow and um sideshow and sideshow is amazing he is the man with a plan you don't see behind the scenes making our debates fantastic um but yes uh going five dollar super chat from nominal David how does pressure exist adjacent to a vacuum without the necessary antecedent of a container why do you say necessary oh this you know who this I know who this person is that's Nathan Oakley Nathan years ago you tried to debate me on this and I destroyed you in your own chat room the antecedent is not necessary okay here's the problem that you have Nate if you have any force that acts on the gasses if it's electrostatic force gravitational force or anything else that overwhelms whatever sense of pressure equilibrium that you believe has to be the dominant force so as weak as gravity is because there is so much matter that that is the earth that amount of gravitational force allows the air to be adjacent to the ground that air gradually loses its pressure until it becomes a vacuum not the air itself but the amount of pressure from surface to whatever height you want to say is a vacuum there's no next to next to is an arbitrary concept that you're saying as if the very division line between vacuum and not vacuum is some kind of like something there's no next to it's just a gradual reduction in pressure that's the most amount of wish washing keep scalloping i've ever heard in my life but it's the truth and on that note well he can you can answer David yes put on that if you ask the question so here's how's the truth it's the truth because when you go to higher elevations you measure the pressure to be lower than at sea level and it's never going to change the only time that you might see a change temporarily is with the jet stream but that's still because of the flow of air in the higher reaches of the um atmosphere so when you when you rape adjacent of hold on hold on hold on so if you're seeing a gradual reduction of pressure as you go up in elevation why would it stop why would you presume that it stops and they're not with met right so you see that there is no you know there's nothing in the way there's nothing there is no dome that's stopping you from going higher and higher so you end up with a gradual reduction of pressure until there's pretty much nothing there's nothing up there and iron i know you're going to want to respond a second but what i will say is we are moving into the last stages of the q and a it's been fun if you have any more super chats out there i will try to get them in but this is the last warning though it has been once again uh not only a lot of fun but i want to thank both of our interlocutors for joining us right back over to you though iron the spice is real so after all this another flat earther still has given no evidence for a flat earth shocking yeah well he's especially said that you can keep on going up until there's nothing and nothing and and more nothing yeah but that just doesn't work inside any sort of thing that has a pressure gradient when you have a pressure gradient that that requires something to contain it in a vacuum everything you're just declaring things it must it has to because you okay you're god i i apologize all right i'm fine that's my point yeah but but yes what what am i doing except declaring things except for what you are doing you're declaring that the opposite you're declaring i didn't declare people have gone up and higher elevations and they have seen and experience a lack of air pressure what do you want are they lying are these people lying all these people are lying when they go up to Mount Everest and the air pressure is a measurable percentage less than sea level when they when the guy goes up higher than Mount Everest on a imaginary flat earth because there is air itself has density so therefore it has weight and so therefore it will create a pressure there is less air above you so therefore there will be less pressure if there's no gravity why is it above you shut up a second you for fuck sake what's your problem so so if you're trying to say that we're hurtling through a vacuum of space then that pressure gradient would dissipate immediately into that vacuum but when we say that there's just less pressure above us that makes perfect sense okay now you can break well actually we're going to move forward because that actually was for you and so you have the last word so a five dollar super chat from uh canabare celestial navigation elevates angles prove earth is measured and navigated as a flat plane the globe model was created using a flat earth model may i respond that i actually think that is for you so absolutely awesome so i don't know much about um nautical navigational standards but yeah that's that's that's uh immature but whatever so the fact of the matter is is that we started with the presumption that the earth was flat in the ancient times until people started to do measurements and those measurements and the consistency of those measurements built upon our observations okay so when you have more observations hold on they said we have more observations that we started with when you have more observations we assumed it was four five six when you have more observations and more measurements that back up the previous observations that initially started and now let me finish that started your insight into understanding that the earth is round or is a sphere then the nautical methods that were used preceding are simply augmented by the knowledge that we already have to say oh wait this works it's like when you when you have to draw a triangular shape over a vast distance that triangles uh distance i'm sorry the um the angle of each two sides is not going to be 90 degrees okay so when you're trying to measure vast distances from one part of the earth to the other you can't use flat trajectories i'm sorry you can't use trajectories from a flat earth to get you from one side of the earth to the other in fact that's why um preceding christopher columbus and all of that they couldn't ascertain the distance from one side of the earth to the other they thought the earth was a lot smaller than it actually was and so iron it sounded like it sounded like you want to say something and then i get the because it's david's question so it metaphorically 30 seconds and then david 15 seconds so we can move forward to the last it looks like two questions but iron the ball all your go iron go get them yeah i was really hoping to hear it over here an argument but all you did was a lot about nautical one more gish counting and you cut me off like four times okay and i'm interrupting both of you um yeah i do believe it was my chance just to have 30 seconds mate yeah that's all i needed was just to say that you just gish counting you've got nothing you don't really know what you're talking about you're trying to to to make some sort of career an argument out of nothing so you know the 90 degrees over distance how do you know what distance what direction you are going over a very long period unless you're using a compass and a compass works in a circle so of course if you're going to make a triangle out of circular edges of course i won't like that the 90 degrees at h angle all right so here's my rebuttal first of all i think i misspoke i said 90 degrees but it's really 60 degrees i believe it's six six twelve eighteen so 180 degrees and um that has no bearing on the fact that we're on the two on the on a three-dimensional sphere with a with a curved surface that we traverse as if it's two dimensions the fact of the matter is that you're presuming far too much and you stop at your presumption and then when more information is given that refutes your presumption whether it be nautical knowledge or knowledge of the stars or stuff going over the horizon or whatever you simply try to reaffirm your presumption by finding some alternative explanation like personal perspective and it's well thanks a lot about say it i some of us say so nonsense i can't even remember what it is personal perspective and uh some some other non-existent thing it's like that's so no one no one can measure that and you can't measure personal perspective you're about to have the ball back iron because a two-dollar super chat from bitter truth iron does earth orbiting sun or sun orbiting that is how it's phrased so let me check does earth orbit the sun or does the sun orbit the earth it sounds like what they're asking fine yeah that's that's quite obvious that the earth is stationary it sits at the base of our existence and we see the sun moving around above us and it takes a very very big sample yeah it's very hard for a lot of people to grasp the the central scale it's massive it's huge but for some reason or another everybody tends to see the sun for about 50 percent of their period of the day and i yeah obviously it's the sun moving above us and if we assume then that there is a dome above us that somehow angles that light towards us it actually works far better than this whole concept of us spinning on our axis to see the sun so i'm gonna do a rebuttal here so sure but then it does have to be his final last word because it was i think i think he's just gonna stumble on this so come sunset if you're here if you're here and it's nine o'clock right three sorry let's let's say sun yeah sunset and it's nine o'clock so three six oh no actually yeah yeah so you're here and you gotta go all i can't get the thing right but right here is 12 o'clock right here is about nine o'clock that's my point so you're here and it's nine o'clock way up here i should be looking way north during sunset at nine o'clock okay and i'm not that's not how it works okay that's a really nice the equator that's a really nice argument in incredulity because you just can't quite grasp the whole concept of perspective of how we're looking ah that's the other thing yeah we're not looking at you we're not looking at where we're looking at ourselves you see the things that we see um yeah thanks Amy for the opportunity so thank you both for the responses and the super chat uh it looks like we have a tag from canna bear was saying it was a super chat asking david if he could acknowledge nasa getting caught using wires and green screens and zero g planes to fake weightlessness does he believe CGI is reality well nasa didn't get caught anything so let's go over the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of hours of recorded interactions between the astronauts and their zero g environment and with that you don't have green screens what you have is that's what happened now you might find some specific instance i remember someone had posted a fake nasa got you video of a green screen but it turned out that that person wasn't even the nasa employee was like a lookalike and they got busted for doing that so even if you find one out of the millions of millions of minutes of nasa videos that's one example it was probably used for some type of mock-up testing or for some specific purpose that doesn't debunk all the evidence not by a long shot and and you don't even have it and that begins the last of the three we just have two super chats left from dig flat earthers eat plain cheese pizza no toppings and our last super chat of the night coming in from dave gar and we are sending in so much love right back to him he is sending two dollars he's saying thanks both debaters for coming in at the last minute i cannot agree more from my heart in the entire modern day debate community it has been fun having both of our interlocutors enter the ring and have a juicy debate though i do want to thank you all for joining us here on modern day debate we are a neutral platform welcoming everybody from all walks of life if you enjoy this debate please don't forget to like follow and subscribe it really helps us reach a wider audience on your favorite podcast platform including tonight's debate on flat verse globe earth with our interlocutors iron and younger entity does it here to help us that's the glad you're you're you're very good at the enthusiasm i'm glad defenders are just looking about complete idiot you can pass those contradictions man get back to me on that you guys can feel the spice once again i want to thank both of our interlocutors whom you can find in the description below plus if you like even more fun you can find us out there on the mdd discord also if you ever have it after show feel free to run and we'll put it in the description below doesn't matter which side whoo but with that i am avie newman with modern day debate we hope that you continue having great conversations discussions and debates