 All right, we're recording. Thank you. Welcome everyone. This meeting is being recorded. This meeting will be conducted by remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so. We assume or by telephone, no in person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. I will call the meeting to order and go ahead with a roll call just to double check that we can all we're all here and can be heard. So, Anna. Hello everyone. President, sorry. Dorothy. Hello, here I am. All present. And Athena, I'm here too. One, and I'm here as well. Okay, so we have a form. And let me see. Do not believe we have anyone. We do. Okay. Can you hear us? We hear you. Okay. Wonderful. So shall it has joined the meeting. And I believe we have one attendee with us. Myra Ross, thank you for being with us. If you would like to make a public comment, please raise your hand now so we can bring on a room. So I am going to, with that, I am going to hand the floor over to Anna so we can review the stream. And she has a hand up. Oh, okay. Hold on just for a moment. It says I'm one muted. Can you hear me? We hear you. Okay, great. I actually hadn't planned to make a statement, but since you invited it, I'm the chair of the disability access advisory committee. And I don't think we have anything in writing at this point for you about the street lights. But we did discuss it at our meeting in March. And we did not, we, we said that what they seem to be proposing at that time, although I haven't seen the latest iteration of their proposal. We didn't have any problem with because they weren't discussing the placement of the lights. They were discussing the characteristics of the lights. And we were fine with the yellow. We were fine with the down facing. We were fine with everything that they seem to want. But for us, the most important part about the placement of the lights would be that they having to do with safety of pedestrians, safety of bicyclists, essentially making sure, especially with the condition that our sidewalks and streets are in, that people's safety isn't compromised by darkness and that people aren't going to be spilling out of wheelchairs because they, they couldn't see that the sidewalk was really not in good shape. So that's essentially what we thought at the time, we don't have any information about any changes to the proposal if there were any. So that's it. I don't have anything in writing for you, but I wanted you to know where we are. Okay, thank you, Mara. Thank you for taking the time to be with us this evening. And if you would like to stay with us in the audience, we are about to get into that discussion now. Okay. Thank you. Okay, I'll know the floor is yours. Thank you. So we have been discussing this for a very, very long time and I'm hopeful that now we have come to a resolution and a path forward here. As a reminder, what's in your packet today? There's two marked up versions. The, what we are talking about and voting on and I hope that we're able to vote today is not changing anything that the policy is saying about, about location of street lights, except for the only addition, which is that we generally, we added regional transit bus stops that was not in the policy before. So if you look at Amherst Streetlight Policy 2023, there's two versions and you can see the marked up, the really marked up and the clean versions for your, for your reference. That's what we would be voting on tonight. I also included in your packet a memo to try to, to provide illustrative examples of what it is that we're talking about. I know that there's terms in this that aren't necessarily part of the everyday lexicon. And so for, for the average person, and so I wanted to provide some visuals and some examples. So I'm happy to take questions of folks on that memo, if folks needed, needed clarification or explanation, anything that's in there. But otherwise I want to make sure that we are very clear as a committee. This is not about, this is not about the placement of the street lights. This is about the technical specifications. And please only what, what we are voting on is only the policy that's in the packet today. And so I asked us to, to remember that. I think that this conversation has gotten really twisty because we initially did propose something different. So I really want us to, to have that document up and be looking at it so that we know what we're, what we're discussing. And I'm happy to share my screen if folks want it literally up, but I wanted to open for questions first on the memo or the policy itself. Okay. That was clear. Crystal clear. Thank you for that. Shalini. Yeah. So one is the concern that Tracy has raised about the 11pm. That the street lighting shall be dimmed to no more than 70% by 11pm or within one hour of the end of closing time. Of the last bar. So that from the safety point of view, and then also from like, have you all shared this policy with businesses downtown? Like in terms of process, how are you getting feedback from the community? So we're gathered feedback from the community the same way that we gathered feedback on every other proposal. And so this has been out and on the agenda and requesting public comment. And so we have not walked around specifically to ask businesses. And the, in terms of the dimming, I think that it's, it's important to look at the light levels. 70% is still relatively high. And so if you look at the light levels, I didn't include examples of dimming, but those are easy to, to search. They came up when I was pulling this together. And so I think I can, I can look quickly. If folks would like me to try to find an example, 70% is still in illuminated, an illuminated surface. It's just not as bright of an illumination. And those, the areas that are most heavily trafficked, it would still be lit until that, that later timeframe. And as well, bus stops are would, would be, would be lit as well. I think since it's impacting be like for me, it's hard to say 70% is good enough. And for you to say, unless we've heard from people, how it's going to impact them. And that's why I think they should be a public forum or some sort where we are more formally inviting the businesses and, you know, disability committee seems like they don't have the latest draft or tack or all of the, I mean, I know you already heard from tack, I believe, but it sounds like disability committee has, doesn't have the latest. And then plus like having a public forum before we as a committee board, I would like to hear from businesses specifically. I'd like to hear from the police chief and fire and, you know, all the safety personnel. We have reached out to the safety personnel that they were part of this process as we went along. Okay. So they're fine with this. They did not have any, this is not a large variance from our current policy. And other than the specifications, the police did not have any concerns. We did not. I don't believe we reached out to fire specifically. I have to ask me if she did. Okay. Yeah. But that would be my proposal is to at least have a public forum where we invite specifically invite. People who represent businesses then. And maybe the fire get feedback from the fire stuff. I'm personally, I don't, I don't know where I'm struggling with that. Shalini is that, you know, everything we do is impactful. And so we also want to be able to get things done. And so I want to make sure that we are, we're considering the implications of that. And if that's what you're also proposing it. In my mind means that we would be doing a public forum on every single thing that we address, because all of this is about. Changes that impact them. I mean, our whole job is changes that impact the public. Right. And so I think that if, if the committee votes to do a public to hold a public forum on this, then that's, that's the committee's prerogative. And I think that in my opinion, that would mean that we are setting a precedent that we will do a public forum on every other proposal that comes forward. So I just, I think that's in my mind. That's where that leads, which if that's what the committee wants, that's fine. I think we as a committee have to come back to the community engagement project proposal that I had. And now that we have done this whole CRC thing, we do have a plan for that I want to bring forward, but I think we as a committee have to decide which, like you said, we can't do it for everything, but perhaps things that do impact. And why I think this is an important enough thing that we should engage the community is because, you know, we are struggling to revive our downtown and there is a fear. It may be a perception and not an absolute thing, but there is a fear about parking in certain places. And if you're thinking of dimming it even by 270%, you know, it creates a perception that it's not safe, or is it going to harm the people who are now trying to come to Drake or we're trying to get businesses downtown and shut dimming the light, it kind of feels like the vibe is like, oh, okay, good night, everyone. We're going to bed now. So I mean, I want to understand not your perspective, I've already your perspective, but I would like to hear the perspective of specifically businesses. Great. And I do want to clarify that the, the dimming is after all of that. We were very intentional when, when we were writing this, that I want to make sure I read the exact sentence that the downtown, I'm finding the exact key. And then 70% by 11 or within one hour of the end, within one hour of the end of closing time of the last bar or live music. Yep. So, so that the idea there is that the, people are able to get home from their show or the bar or whatever it might be. And so that they're the, the located in the downtown so that it's not being dimmed as they're walking back to their car after or whatever it might be. That was a very intentional ad to make sure that we're not impacting those, those types of things and that people have that illumination as they're walking back to their car, to the bus stop or wherever they might be going. Okay. So I think I'm reading the within one hour as before one hour, but you're saying after it's closing at 12, you're saying it'll be dimmed at 1pm or you're saying it'll be dimmed at 11pm. I'm saying at one, it would be, sorry, Sandy, it would be an hour if the bar closes at, when the bar is closed or two. Yeah. So then it would be by three o'clock. Okay. So I was reading within like this. No, it's after, after the purpose is to keep it illuminated. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's right. Okay. Um, Dorothy or shall I need to do that answer? Okay. Dorothy. Well, I have some, some remarks here. I just, um, number one, just to remind everybody of the absolute basics that when we go out to talk to people and it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of, it's a lot of, it's a lot of things. And, and Paul has responded to some of this. Okay. Streets, sidewalks, and safe lighting. And, and beyond that, a lot of people don't ask for too much more. Okay. Um, and I. When it comes to lighting at night, I'm not interested in theoretical. I'm interested in what is so. Like shall I mean, I wasn't quite sure what so many percent meant what it looked like. So I would like to have a practical test and take a piece of that. Um, I think one of the worst ones up on the upper amity, um, it picks up a little bit, but one reason why I said, I can't draw, walk home from the Amherst cinema at night, even though I live just blocks away is because the sidewalk is dangerous. I think that, um, Myra Ross made an excellent point about, um, having to see the sidewalks and some of our sidewalks, we know we have a huge list where it's going to take years to walk. Um, you know, we have no sidewalks and they have to walk on the roads and the roads are in very bad shape. So it's really important to be able to see where you're walking. And I don't know what 70% is. So I would like to see what that looks like. Um, The, you know, I, one of my arguments I have with my husband, he likes to say this should do this, that should do that. And I say, I'm not interested in should I'm interested in is. Okay. So, and for me, that means I have to see it. Um, you know, I don't know the buses and bars, but, um, I don't know the bus schedules, but I know that we have workers who actually use the buses to go to work. And that, you know, often they have to come home late at night. So I would think that in, you know, in congruence with these bus schedules. That bus stops should have adequate lighting for, for when people can still be coming home at night, because that's pretty scary. I mean, I have to admit, I don't know if it's necessary to do that, but I have done that. I have done that. And it's spooky. Um, and we want to make sure that that's safe. So those are, those are my comments on this. I, I mean, I can, I see, uh, On his point, no point in having unnecessary light when it's not needed. But, um, so I'm just concerned about being sure that we know when it's needed and that we have adequate light that's safe for that. Thank you. Um, I don't know the answer about a test. I think that's something that we'd have to ask go for it about if that's what that would look like, or if that's usable. Um, and I can, uh, I can write that down to ask him. Uh, if that's something that they can do. I don't know if we can. I don't know that we actually have the technology in our street lights currently to dim them. I believe that we do not. Um, that was one of the things that was one of the specifications that we were trying to put in. Um, is that as we switch out street lights that we're replacing them in a way that we can dim them in the future. Um, but my understanding is that we do not currently have dimmable street lights to test this way. Paul, I don't know if you, if that's your understanding as well. I think that's what I'm remembering. I think that's true. We do not. Yeah. Thank you. Um, and the other thing is that I, um, I'm not familiar enough with the full bus schedule to know when the last from the last trip is. I don't know if anyone else knows that. I think that's what I'm talking about. Um, I think that's what I'm talking about. Okay. I know the one by my house, but that's all I got for you. Yeah. I'm almost a hundred percent confident that the. The bus. The bus to stop running before the bars are out. Before the bars get out. We would probably see a bunch of people congregating as well to get on the bus. And I think this is why you see a lot of people. Yeah, we do not have, I mean, like the transportation here doesn't, I mean, we don't have a very late transportation system here. So late night service. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. I found it the late night service, which is Thursday and Friday only the latest one is 1251 p.m. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. You're right. Yeah. So, yeah. So. So that's before that. Before the birthplace would stop before they're open now. Here was my question because seeing as like specifically for, you know, downtown and areas that there are. That there's heavy traffic. So if the lights on, excuse me, if this is was clear in your proposal, because it was there, you know, I thought that it was very clear, but the, if the lights are dimmable, if they're able to be dimmed, does that mean that they could also just, you know, stay at that same. Stay at the same like at lit at 100% without going to 70%. I mean, would, is this would be on a timer? Yeah, it would be on a timer or if we got really fancy, it's through something that they would, they're able to control it DPW, but one way or another, it's not. It's adjustable. Okay. So then you'd have to, yeah, sorry. So the idea of going to, you know, more efficient lighting can still go and then so would. So I guess my roundabout, what long would a question is with this. So this dimming to 70% is that would this have to be. Set in stone because I mean, we do have, you know, to the, their point there is, you know, there would be a lot going on in the downtown at certain times that that could be complicated and especially just in heavy traffic areas. I mean, we have the same lighting depending on whatever, whatever condition the sidewalks are in, you know, and I have seen like I'm a little more familiar myself with just the dimming and dimming of lighting. And I don't know the exact percent that I'm familiar with, but just that dimming and I know that there's a difference but you can see, and that's also dependent on, you know, how, how many lights there are and how spaced out there are and all that. But it, but is there wiggle room with that at all? So I mean, I think there's, yes, there's wiggle room, but I think what would be important is to recognize that if, if the dimming, if the other option for dimming were to not dim at all, then it's not necessarily worth us investing in the, the special lights that can dim, right? So I think that's, that'll be the question. I also, I mean, Mandy said this last time we met, but reminding folks that the timeline for swapping out these lights is further along them, is further out than we, than we initially thought. So we're talking a couple of years, at least down the road, if not five. And so I guess, yes, there's adjust, my understanding is that you can adjust all of those and the council as keepers of the public way can adjust the policy at any point. I think that the question that I think would be more intelligent of us is to sort of decide soon whether or not that's something we want so that we're not investing in infrastructure that we aren't going to utilize. If that makes sense. No, it does, it does. Okay, so I want to make sure I've captured the, the comments. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let me put it down. No, I think Shalini was raising her. Yeah, I had one more question. I think I was just trying to get to the last part where it asked Paul she within six months come up with a plan. And I just wanted, and I know it's a 10 year. Implementation plans or that seems fair, but I just wanted to hear from Paul, given that everything that's going on, is that something reasonable for you and have you. Yeah, so it's six months plus an additional six months if needed. So I think certainly within that timeframe. It's doable. I think the challenge for the plan is going to be it's always going to be subject to funding, right? So there can be a plan if there's not money available, then it's only as good as the funding. And. You know, I think that that's something that we would want to look at it when we build our budgets, whether we're going to budget for the implementation plan or not. The only other thing I want to make is I think the comment is in that the town shall buy the most efficient light. And like there's a, that's a, you know, that can be a big, I worry about what that really requires because there could be something that's cost, you know, $1,000 versus something that's $100 that's, but I think that. You know, we all know what that, what that most efficient light means. So I'm just going to say we did try to define what most efficient means, including cost installation and labor. So those are, those would be factored into the, to the efficiency as an equation. It's not, not just the most kind of climate efficient. Yeah. Dorothy. I would be a lot happier if we didn't have something that was this fancy and regarding on technology, which might cost a lot of extra money. And Spets and just kept the focus on the shading and the downlight that, that you, that was definitely part of this. I can't imagine that getting a light that, that a streetlight that is dimmable isn't going to add a lot of cost and also have a chance of getting out of whack. Things happen to streetlights and that means that we end up being very expensive and we'd say, what did we ever get into? And then you have a streetlight to get stuck at what it is and it won't come back on again. It just, to me, adding a whole layer of, of difficulty and cost when your two points, which I had no problem with, was to do with choosing a color that worked better for birds and wildlife. And yet was, you know, going to do the job and to making sure that the, the screen, the aperture brought the light down and didn't get to unnecessary uplighting. And I, I think that the dimming of the thing is just adding a lot of money and costs in the area of, of great aggravation for the DPW. So I don't want to put words in DPW's mouth. I would, I would caution us against doing that. And I also think that we want to make sure that we're, we're not ignoring the flip side and the reason why we would be dimming, which is, is efficiency in terms of, of cost over time and sustainability and health. So I think that, you know, there are, there are complications with making any change. And it's important to remember that there's also reasons why we do want to make that change, right? So if, if for you, that coin comes down on the side of it's too complicated or whatever that might be, then that's your prerogative. But I don't want us to lose the fact that what dimming does do is makes the environment healthier. It's more sustainable in terms of our climate. And ultimately it's less energy usage. And so it's, it's over time. The idea is that it would be less costly. So I think that that's that part of it. In terms of the, the technological nature of, of policies like this, you know, I mean, Mandy and I talked about this. And I think one of the things that's, that's tough is we, our, our responsibility is to. Educate and understand so that we're able to write and pass policies on this kind of thing. And, you know, we talked about this in, in council a week. Well, gosh, I can't remember what meeting it was. But, you know, the, the idea that sometimes, sometimes bills come from counselors, sometimes they come from staff and to limit it one way or another, just because of technological expertise, I think is, is limiting both groups. So that's, that's my, my kind of philosophy on that. And if, if we differ on that, then that's, again, that's okay, we each have our vote. But we, we would be voting on this with no idea of cost. And I find that troublesome. You know, so, so we have some idea. We're not going to put cost into the policy. We, we recognize that there is, there are cost implications, but we also were trying to write in that. These are being swapped out as we go. And that cost change. And so to put in, to put in cost estimations at this point into a policy would, would be unwise. We also really did try to make sure that this is budget conscious and putting in, putting in the, the different caveats about why things might need to be shifted. Right. So how we define efficiency includes considerations for cost, how we, how we look at what fixtures to put in does include, does include considerations for cost. So, you know, I mean, I think the other element of this is that we can also change these policies as we go. And if for some reason things become exorbitantly more extensive, then we, we could, the council could vote to change this back again, or to something else entirely. But the goal here is that we are, we're swapping this out, swapping them out as they die to make it more efficient so that we are spending less money and making it safer. I do, I'm trying to find at one point, there were cost estimates and I'm trying to dig through my email quickly, but I can't pull them up right now. I can't seem to find them at this exact moment. Can I, can I respond to your last. Oh, of course. The phrase we can change it back is, is sounds good, but you know, when I think of the time that we spend on doing any little thing and how long our meetings are and our committee meetings are, that's not a comforting phrase to me. I think that getting good people to run and serve on the town council is going to be dependent on making the workload better so that people who have other jobs and other responsibilities can do it and bring themselves to this thing. So, I mean, when I think about all the meetings that I attend virtually or whatever and listen to and stuff, it's not easy changing anything. So the fact that it could be changed, it would mean going through all this again. I must say it's an exhausting thought. So that's not a comforting thought to me that it could be changed because everything can be changed if you have the stamina to put up with it. You know, Oh, trust me, I'm, I'm very familiar with the stamina that it takes to change policy at this point. I think what I mean, Dorothy, and I recognize it's probably not, and I don't necessarily intend to be a comforting thought, but I think my purpose is that we, that would be our prerogative, right? I more meant that we have the ability should someone be so upset by it that they don't like it and want to change it, right? Like that it's more of that's within our purview. Not, I didn't mean it flippantly as like we could just do it, right? I meant more like that is within our right to do. And I apologize if it came across. It didn't. It was not, it was not anything to do with your tone on it. It's just my sense of the reality of what it takes to change anything. Yeah, I mean, ideally we've been, you know, pouring over this to try to get it right and not have to, not have to go and edit anything after. That's, that's the idea. Got it. Shalini. Yeah, I think two things that I would feel more comfortable before voting and, and that's just how I think. And that's why, you know, just to, that's, that's my consistency and how I'm thinking through all the policies that are coming through like the waste hauler, by-law, why we haven't voted. It's a very straightforward by-law, but we're waiting for the cost to, and of course they're slightly different. That's probably going to be, we don't know. It's probably going to bring down the cost. We don't know, but we're waiting to get the estimates before we, you know, we're inviting the TSA to have a conversation. So my mind is going similar to what Dorothy is saying. It's a little, it's a, I don't see how we can, without having, I know it's going to change, you said in the future, but can we look at what it would cost now is this to get a sense of what are we committing to? That's number one. And secondly, I think that the second one is maybe easier, but it's just to maybe show and explain this, the, what the impact of this is going to be to, and get the feedback from the business community. And, and secondly, from the disability and advisory committee. So the draft that the DAAC had, I believe is the most updated draft based on, on what Myra shared earlier. I can confirm that, but I believe that they've been working on the same draft that TAC had. So TAC, and TAC has always had the updated one. Shalani, can I ask what your recommendation in terms of when you say the business community, how do you define that? So I can only think of, like when we did the rental, the stakeholders were landlords. So we went to through the town, you know, the town to reach out to the landlords and did the bulletin boards and did all of that, just like inviting people generally to the public comment. I don't think cuts it. So in this, in this case, in the least, I think getting the bid to maybe send it out and talk to them at least, like what is this something you feel that and the chamber at least goes through. And then I don't know if there are other, I can't think of other, there are other business groups that could give feedback that if this is something that they feel is important enough for them to send it out to the businesses or, or do they, or maybe at least if they can give some, at least just having a conversation with them. I know I'm, I'm just really, I'm struggling to know who them is and I want to be inclusive. And I'm sampling and chamber. Okay. So the bid and chamber leadership, are you saying that we, you want us to talk to all of the bid and chamber members? The leadership. And like I was saying, you can talk to the leadership if they think this needs to go further than the leadership to other members to just having a conversation with them to get some feedback. And I don't know if the other groups, those are the two that are coming to my mind. So I apologize if I'm leaving, leaving out any other business groups that could provide feedback on that. Okay. I've written it down. Thank you. Any other questions or comments? Yeah, Dorothy. I would imagine that each business owner would go outside and take a look and see where the streetlight is compared to their business thinking of front doors and back doors. Because of, you know, it's, it's, it's people pedestrians on the street. And it's also just general safety. And if they found that the lights were in good positions, that probably they'd say, oh, it's fine with me. But I mean, it gives them a chance to check and to see how this might impact them. Right. And, and just in it, we're not changing anything about the positions. Yeah. Right. I know that, but. I just say go, go, go carefully and go slowly and to know what you're doing in terms of how this is, how this impacts other people. And, and Shawnee is, is trying to say, let's get a little bit more input from at least one group of people. Okay. And I, sorry. I get her point. I think it's a valid. I heard it and I, and I wrote it down. I appreciate it. Any other questions? Thank you. All right. Thank you. Okay, sorry. Just one moment. Okay. Our next topic item here is proposed town staff. Updates. This was expanded on thankfully by Anna and Paul. We kicked this off a couple of weeks ago with a Sarah bar coming to give us a community update. And the idea here is inviting town staff and department heads. Paul and I touched base. Briefly and thinking about, you know, trees, of course, roads, as we know, would be an issue and sustainability. So the, the idea here is to have a discussion based on. Who we as a committee or what departments might want to see to come in. And have a discussion with whether that's presentations a little more of an intimate setting than if this was out in an entire council meeting and could possibly roll out that we would. Decide here discuss who we would like to see and then filter that through Paul. Who would be able to see who and what and when. We would like to see how it fits best in the schedule and when that works and maybe do an alternate schedule, like looking through our, our schedule, our meeting schedule, rather that we would have, you know, someone come in and talk with us. Maybe that's once a month or, you know, how it fits best in the schedule. So I want to, before we open the discussion, see if there's any other input from either on it or, or Paul. If there's any other input that anyone has on it. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate you putting this on the agenda. I think when, when I had initially talked with Anika about this, we were talking about. Doing at least annual updates again on the paving plan for roads and sidewalks as Jason had come in last year and done. That was very helpful for us, but also I know I'll speak for myself. I've utilized that recording with my constituents and the data from it. And so I think that including that on a regular basis would be great. And then I also had thought, you know, possibly again, Paul, I'm just starting these out there. So with respect to your staff's time. Bringing in Alan snow to talk through our plan for tree management, especially as we are seeing emerald ash for show up. More and more. And so tree planting and management. So I think that's some updates possibly from. Probably Dave or Aaron Jock Aaron Jock about. Conservation land management. Those were the ones that came up for me in terms of specific town stuff that I think would be helpful for us to hear from. Mostly to respond to a resident. Resident concerns. Yeah, thanks. Absolutely. Thank you. Just to echo on the, the roads and sidewalks presentation has been really helpful. We've used that in a couple of the. The district meetings and those that were there have, you know, really appreciated that. And we're able to have a, you know, have a copy for themselves to share with neighbors. So that was, that was great. Paul. Yeah. So I think this is a terrific idea. I think we did learn a lot by the roads presentation last year, which, and just to be on it, you know, the staff would really appreciate the opportunity to make these presentations. I think your meetings are more conducive to a conversation than a council meeting. Although I think a lot of counselors will be interested and should be invited to these meetings or they can watch it afterwards. And I think the idea that we do these and we then they package them up as little videos that anybody can watch at any time. Like we did with the roads is really good. The things that we had talked about, I think roads, trees, I think is an important one because that's going to become a big policy, not a policy issue, but it's going to be a big issue for the town in the next few months. So we need to get that out there. Conservation land management is something I'm sure Dave would love to talk. You just need to have several hour meeting, I think, to accommodate that. And the other one was sustainability efforts. I think people would appreciate. I think that's a good point. I think we can start with some of the updates on that. Those are things that come up a lot. And there's not. The ECAC does talk about that a lot, but if you want to give a broader venue to that. That would be up, that would be up to you. I mean, it's just lots of different folks who, you know, if you wanted them, but I think we could start with three or four and see, you know, that would get us to the fall and see how, how that helps works out for you. I think we can add to that. And this could be down the road, because I can see the more urgent one beings the road sidewalks. Sustainability. But also if we could get the staff to talk about. Recycling and composting and all because my husband and I always arguing this goes into the recycle. This doesn't go, or this is not clean enough. And he'll just put stuff. And I'm like, no, this is going to contaminate the other stuff. And I think a lot of people don't actually know. I, you know, I think that's a really good one. I think that's one that we would want to seize on Susan wait. She knows that stuff better than anybody on our staff. So when she's presenting, let's, we can carve out some of her time to do that. That's a great idea. Because there are a lot of questions about that stuff. Yeah. And just saying started composting. Yes. Maybe that one could also coincide with the next. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when the hauler is on the. Yeah. So we're shaking up our meetings. Dorothy. Well, I just discovered on the town website today. Town council, what greatest hits or something. And how easily the meetings were. And I thought, oh, that looks great. So well, you're talking about a video. I would love a video. Welcome to the dump or welcome to the town council. And I'm really excited to see where the different people could show you. This is what we do here. This is what we do here. You know, the camera just going around and showing you what you, the systems because I didn't have to do it all these years, but when my husband had his foot surgery, I found myself doing it. And I was total novice. And I'm sure I rode the wrong way on many places and didn't put something in the wrong place. Because. We're still going to have the transfer station. We're still going to have the transfer station. We're still going to have the transfer station. Things are kind of spread out. So not always so easy to ask. You don't want to bother people. I think that could be, they could have fun making it actually. So that's my suggestion. Sounds good. Any other, any other thoughts? Oh, I did have a question. The area that we never talk about is because we don't really have much of a department, but that is social services. But I know that we have. I think it would be really interesting for us to. Kind of get. Maybe have about five or six of the people who do the different parts. At a meeting and each could talk about what they do when they don't do and when they call, move it to another lane or go to the, go to a state thing or. Because like, if you have, if you wanted to get help for somebody in your family or somebody on your block. At the moment, I don't know what to tell people too much. But I know we have some kind of. We have some, some services, some services, or at least referral of that type, but it's kind of not very clear. Well, our services are for seniors. That's the only thing we really, and we have a lot of services. We help direct people and refer people who are homeless. Everything else is pretty much a lot of those other services that are private entities that provided that we that they collaborate on obviously the police collaborate with them as well as fire and crest. The family outreach, for instance, is a big collaborator. That's what I was about to say, like a survival center family outreach. But when I went to some of the senior meetings, there's a certain, I can't remember the name of it, but there's a charitable group or social service group that does. The meals on wheels or there's, there's connections made. Right. The senior center does the meals on wheels. Right. But there was, I, well, I mean, for example, the young man that got killed on the subway today who was acting totally erratically in public. If you have somebody that you that is behaving bizarrely and in a way that might be dangerous or threatening. We just call the police or call Cress or yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, if you think sometimes I was talking with somebody about this the other day and like, think about some of the resources there was a couple that they weren't aware of either survival center or family outreach environments and like the differences. And so we're talking about how like survival center is more of like the emergency room, if you think about it that way, like kind of where you go to get patched up or, you know, where you're looking, if you're not dying, you're patched up and there you go. Whereas family outreach environments is for, you know, more of like kind of connecting with that primary care. So that's more about long-term. But I think what we're saying, I think what we're saying is that there's, it's sort of a disconnect. It's a connected but hard to navigate social service network. And I think we could, that would take some time to pull together, but I think it's something we could try to do. Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I think it's, I think it's a great question. You know, you know, when you're first entering into the world, if you have a parent, if you don't live in town and you have a parent or someone, how do I gain access to services? So let me think about that one. Yeah. And those are two. Great ones. The other one, I should just. Uptemide it ahead. Not you said the senior center and maybe. They're, they're lunch services. They're maybe. Hailey and Donna, Donna Hancock, who was pretty much instrumental in that. The pandemic. Yeah. So I just think, you know, it, and I think it's fine for the DSO committee to think about this, but you know, it's typically committees are sort of like, we have an action to take. So we should be making work on an action. So this is sort of changing how you approach things. You know, how the information be educated. And you know, and I think that it was successful with the roads because we've utilized that information. And it's, there's not another place. We could just sort of do it ourselves, but the sort of dialogue that came between the counselors and the town engineer was very valuable. And that's that elicited a lot more information than he just made it as a presentation. So it's a slightly different approach to your committee work, as opposed to having, we've been delegated something. So I think that's a good approach to the council. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I want to be mindful of that. And so I think establishing a cadence and a process for it so that we're not pushing off our actions that we need to take because there's, there's a lot that's on our plate right now. So that we kind of have a regular cadence, but that we're not spending. We're not pushing aside our kind of duty and responsibility. And that's why I think we have to be very, very careful with what we're doing at the same time. At the same time. Right. Like we have. Reporting deadlines back to council on things. And so. I think that's, that'll be a consideration is how we. Spread these out. And that's why I was thinking like once a year for paving and one, you know. Yeah. So that we're not. Neglecting what we have to get back to the, to the whole team. Yeah. I mean, I think that. Yeah. I totally agree that we'll go without saying that we'd have to get back to the system. But I think that's kind of chosen. We have. On our list first. But just, you know, seeing as we do touch on, on town services, I think that there is some information about certain departments and some people don't know. I mean, maybe we'll widen our audience and we'll have three people. But you never know. Dorothy. I just wanted to mention that years ago in sunny side Queens, we some volunteers put together a little booklet called the problem solver in which we put we laid out as much information as we could about services and how you contact them. And right now, I think that it would be pretty hard to find your way through the town website. I, so I am suggesting that someone I'm not saying us. Okay. You can make a paper, as well as a virtual thing, which is just imagine I'm new in town. In fact, you know the old days they used to have welcome wagon be the kind of thing that you would give somebody when they moved into town and say, you know, here welcome and hear some of the things about the town expecting people to find their way through the on the internet. It's not not that successful in lots of ways, but so I'm suggesting that I think that that needs to be done, because it takes a long time to find out where things are and what they mean. And I know that some of the TV group, zoom groups with senior citizens are kind of trying to work on that a little bit. But again, when you're dealing with older people. And maybe some people from other cultures. The first thing they do is not necessarily go and find their way around the town website. They might need something simpler. And that's something could be translated as well could be translating to Spanish, and maybe a few of the other languages which are in town. And I'm not saying we do that but I'm saying that this could be a project that we could be help support in some way. So, Paul, do you have that this short list. I do. I'll talk to staff. I think I've heard I've heard your priorities and we'll sort of see, you know, where people are and I'll talk with Jason about the roads. It might be, once we know exactly what our bids are, we might want to wait till we get our bids and which is the second. We're about to submit the second issue of bids so we'll know how much more we can do. Can I ask if the prices have continued to go up. Do you know are they stayed steady from last year. Actually, the bid that we just did which was Pomeroy and West Pomeroy word was lower than we anticipated so. Thank you. Thank you. Hopefully that trend continues. Yeah. That's pretty exciting. All right, so we are going to move into the town manager appointments. Paul, you continue to shake it up. This is great. Hand that over to you. Would you like to walk us through. Sure. So this is our first time that we were pointing to the Amherst housing authority board of commissioners. This is a board that is created by state law, three of the members are elected, and they're elected at the same time you are elected. And so there's some transition language in the charter that helped with that, but that's that's up and running now. There are two other positions. So there is a tenant member as this is all required by state law and then there's a state appointee. So the state the state appointee is appointed by the governor when the governor doesn't fill that position. And it's after a certain number of days. The authority reaches out to the Department of Housing and Community Devile and saying we really want you to appoint someone when they don't respond to that or if they say no, it reverts to the town to go through its normal appointing process. So we, and that's where we are in this situation. So we posted the vacancy. There are people who apply to like to serve. And so I am appointing James Linfield of 71 Country Corners Road as the person to serve as a state state appointee. These terms are for five years. Mr. Linfield is in this would be the gubernatorial appointment. He has worked in housing development. He is, he's worked at wayfinders. He's done real estate development. He's done property management. He comes with a whole menu of really strong skills. He couldn't, he was interested in other committees, for instance, like the housing trust, but he really can't because he could have a conflict because the wayfinders is always doing things there. So this is the place where he felt like, and he really wants to be giving back to his community. So this is, it was a golden opportunity to get him engaged. And the housing authority does a lot of rehab of existing buildings and they, and so it seems to be a really nice skill set match for what the housing authority needed and what he was bringing to the table. The other position is a tenant member. So if, if you there's two processes, one if you have a local tenant organization, there's one process we do not have that. So if you don't have a local tenant organization, you, the authority reaches out to all the residents of their of their facilities and say would you like to serve and then if someone's interested they submit their name. And we followed the same process for appointment. And so we had, we interviewed folks who were interested in that and then, and I'm appointing Mark Barrett, who is a tenant resident now before moving to Amherst, he, he lived in the housing authority property in Belcher town, and he was a commissioner in Belcher town. So he actually had experience being a commissioner. And, you know, but he like I am not an expert on these things, but I've served so I know what it means to serve. He has been volunteering his time at the senior center. And he has also been volunteering at in. In Belcher town he offered his services to help start a rainbow coffee hour and to work with LGBT, LGBTQIA plus organizations to get folks or organized at the senior center so he seemed to be a real good addition to as well because there was no, I think the, there was no expect, there was no ramp up time for him to be able to start to serve and be educated. So the people who were on the interview team were me, the chair of the housing authority who is Michael Burkhart and he couldn't make one of the interviews so another member from the housing authority Nancy Schroeder sat in on that. The, the executive director of the housing authority panel Rogers and make gauge from the residents advisory committee. So these are the two appointments. Paul, can I ask a clarifying, I drafted a motion, I can do them in the same motion right because it's the same appointment with the same expiration. Okay. This is really do. This is exciting. I had a question about the terms that you answered it and then is it common practice for the governor to not to let this to just let that go to the. Yeah, this has been vacant for a long, long time. I mean, Connie Krueger was the last person to hold that seat was just before she was on the select board. Wow. Yeah, right. You know why that is sorry for question or is it just, I don't know it's, you know, the governor has probably so many appointments this is a very small housing authority, it's probably safer for them not to appoint someone and appoint someone they don't really. There's a lot of interest in folks serving on housing authorities, there's not a lot of cash a and survey it's it's, they're reviewing bills, you know, talking about citing on buildings and stuff like that. I don't think there's a lot of interest in it. I'm ready to make a motion unless anyone else has questions I don't want to cut people up. Take it away. All right. I'm going to make a motion and then they screen one way. Okay. I move for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council, the town manager appointments of Mark Barrett and James Linfield to the housing authority board of commissioners for terms to expire June 30 2028. Thank you. Were you seconding or are you asking for a second. I was doing both. I did both. Great. I took it from Dorothy. Okay, I love it. Dorothy. You're muted. Yeah, yes. Okay, Shawnee. Yes, Anna. Hi. And I'm an as well so that is for with one. absent. Thank you. Thank you. All right, I see Mandy is with us. Welcome Mandy. Hi, having me. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. We're going to hand the floor to Mandy, that we are really just in time coming in under the water for the surveillance policy so thank you so much for taking the time to be with us again tonight. And walk us through. I think Paul has asked me to walk her too. So I'm going to try and you guys did you guys get only a draft with everything accepted. No, we had the new one added. I posted both I posted the markup and the clean version of one. Okay. I have to pull up the markup one but so basically, I want to thank Paul. I met with chief living stone and lieutenant daily and lieutenant daily is the officer, the lieutenant who deals with all of the policy directives is my understanding. And it was a very good meeting. And I guess the impetus for the meeting was where I was here last time and I was concerned, particularly about some conflicts between the directive 18 that was referenced in the policy provided and incorporated by reference in that policy and the policy itself. So the new draft, or the new proposal that Paul has, the manager has proposed resolves all of those issues, you will see there's a lot more revisions than just that one issue. While we were in the meeting. And the chief really and the chief re looked over everything and noticed that there might have been some other conflicts between the directive and the policy so that's, that's why there's more so the first, the first big change is to the purpose. And that is basically pulling in the directive that the policy number 18 purpose statement into the surveillance use policy purpose statement. They didn't match, which was my biggest concern because they didn't match before. The, the next big changes to the data retention section, and the concern, I had originally no concerns of it but the concern came from Lieutenant daily and the chief when they read the policy that's on page six, I guess it's still on page six of the town proposed policy it did not match the directive 18 policy 18 from the APD. And so the recommendation was made to make them match and then also indicate that the data that is not saved for evidentiary purposes is overwritten within seven days and that is sort of what the original draft proposal from from the manager said, and so we kept sort of that language and clarified what that meant and then pulled in the rest of the policy directive language or much of it I think I think the manager just referenced the data retention schedule because it's actually kind of long in policy directly. So trying to keep things short public third party data sharing was changed to delete that last sentence about public records requests because it's really covered in section G. So it was more of just clear clarifying things. And then when I was there and since we were going through the whole thing I asked them, is it only the state DA's office that they might share with for evidentiary purposes and prosecutorial purposes and they said no we can't do the Attorney Generals. So might as well add the Attorney General in. And then the other biggest change was auditing an oversight and that was just more of a naming thing. More than anything on that. The one thing I thought would be helpful for TSO to learn know that I learned in my meeting was much of the policy directive. I mean the one that has been adopted by the APD that we're trying that the manager has recommended we incorporate by reference here is pulled directly from the post standards. And those standards are required to be adopted and used as the language is provided to maintain accreditation from the police department is what I was told. So a lot of what so that purpose statement if we were to modify or conflict with what's in policy directive 18. The chief and the lieutenant indicated we would potentially risk accreditation because we would no longer be in compliance with the post standards from the, the, I don't know what year that law was but that created the post commission and all of that. That was one thing I learned that many of these directives are taken directly from those best practices post standards that have been put out there. And so we kind of don't want to mess with them, which is why we've changed everything in the managers suggested one and nothing in the police policy directive. I think that summarizes basically everything. Thank you. Mindy when you were talking about the third party data sharing. And I think I'm following what you're saying. Those are the only two groups there would never be an instance where that data would need to be shared with say the post commission is there. You muted. I forgot I muted myself. They did not mention that. I guess to be safe, you might one thing they did mention and all was sometimes when there are complaints. I don't know where that we were looking at section K complaints. I think that's where you would submit complaints to this. They are required to submit those complaints to post from the police department and so I hadn't thought about that as third party data sharing I don't know whether what the procedures are with those complaints whether they would submit any video or anything to that with the complaint if there was a complaint. I mean that's kind of the that was the scenario I was thinking right like if that was, and I don't know if the post commission is the only group in that instance either inside when I like, I don't want to, I don't want to both limit our ability to have folks have complaints properly investigated and I also don't want to like cut off. I don't want to accidentally over allow at the same time, like the purpose of this is to protect people's data and privacy. And yet we want to make sure that we're able to utilize the post commission as needed. Okay, let me, I'll, I'll, I'll noodle that and see if there's a work around there, because it's also possible to post commission would go through the regional DA in some way. Okay, I'm thinking about that I'm not I was not necessarily expecting to have an answer I don't know Paul if you have any knowledge or insight the post commission so new that I don't like 2020 but yeah. Well, these are public records, and you know, they're, they're saved for seven days. And so someone wants to request the information within seven days but I think this is the idea. I think that this one of these things generate is that how long are you going to save the information of my traffic stop. And we don't we want to have a, if you have to save it for a good reason then that's what what's your policy for saving it. But I think the initiative on this came about is that there's not this store of evidence that the town holds about everybody's traffic stop for forever. So, Dorothy. Yeah, when I read through this. I just realized that it's it's very complicated so I'm pretty much willing to just go with the post standards because I on the one hand I could see wanting to have saved the tape if I thought, and I might not know that I needed it seven days. If I thought it might help my case, but on the other hand, data is so manipulable that, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that you could use it so it's, I think you're damned if you do and damned if you don't it's really, really tricky. And so I'm willing to just go with the post. I think I have some ideas on this one. And it's very complex. New one else have a question or comment for Mandy or Paul. So I have a question on so to for emotion on this would this be to recommend that the town council adopt the surveillance use policy as amended. So it's the amendments are being submitted by the manager. It's, and I don't know if maybe look to Athena if we have to say as amended, which it would go ahead. My suggestion was as presented at the TSO meeting on today's date. Okay. I had, I had language and you could if you want. Yes, please. So the my suggestion would be to recommend the town council approve or reject, I guess, if that's, if that's your preference, the surveillance use policy for in cruiser video and audio as presented to the town services and outreach committee on May 4, 2023. Okay, I'm going to see if I'm sorry to recommend the town council approve the surveillance use policy for in cruiser video and audio as presented at the town services and outreach committee meeting. May 4. Okay. So I moved to recommend that the town council approve the surveillance use policy for in cruiser video and audio as proposed at town services and outreach committee meeting on May 4, 2023. Okay. Thank you, Anna. Okay. Dorothy. Yes. Shawnee. Yes. Anna. And I'm an I so that is for in favor with one absence. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mandy. Thank you for having me appreciate you. I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening. Have you, I assume you finished lighting. We can go back to it. We didn't vote. And there were some questions that you might have answers to that I did that. Oh, I also not go back. I was gonna say I wrote them all down for you so I figured I would reach out to talk to them at some point soon. We'll do that. I just came in late I had no idea where you guys were. Thank you. Thank you. Good night. Okay, so wow we've moved through this we do not have minutes to approve this evening. And are there any announcements anything that anyone would like to share? No. Okay, we have another early one. I guess we're on a roll from the last two council meetings and now this. So thank you all for being here and see you next meeting. I believe that is the 18th that we need. Thank you. Good night everybody.