 Okay, today's seminar is an important one, sorry, just letting more people in the room, is an important one for the Australian Evaluation Society as one of its key strategic priorities is to strengthen culturally safe evaluation practice and processes and ensure that cultural safety is an essential evaluation competency. And today's seminar contributes to this by providing us with an opportunity to learn, to explore, and to discuss what culturally safe practice looks like, particularly in Northern Territory context. In this seminar, Dr. Robin Williams will provide an overview of cultural safety as a decolonization model of healthcare, specifically, but not exclusively for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Robin will also talk about the history, contention, criticisms of, and necessity for cultural safety, along with the principles of cultural safety. Robin will also share her experiences of negotiating culturally safe practice and the need for organizations and systems to have and use cultural safety frameworks. So we're very fortunate to have Robin with us today as a leading light in the area of cultural safety. And I'll now hand over to Robin to tell us a bit more about herself and start the session. Thanks, Ellison. To begin, I would also like to acknowledge and respect the Larakia people as the traditional owners of the, and ongoing custodians of the land where I live and work. I also acknowledge that the Larakia land is unceded and I'm an uninvited guest. I pay my respects to the Elders past and present and to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples that might be attending this seminar. Also, to my Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander family, friends, and colleagues, I acknowledge that you motivate me to keep doing what I do. Now, just a little bit about me, because I do like talking about myself. So bear with me, because this all has a purpose. This is, I'm just giving you a synopsis of my journey, how I've got to what I'm doing now and all the contributing factors and the components that went into that. I will today, I will be focusing on my experiences of cultural safety in the health system, because that's where I've predominantly worked. But also because I've got an education background, hopefully what we'll come across is that you can, you need to know and use cultural safety across a whole variety of settings and sectors. So, a little bit about me. I'm a non-indigenous woman in my mid-60s and that's the cue for when you go, no, can't possibly be. I'm from fourth generation Australian of mixed British descent, predominantly Welsh. And I'm a self-titled third generation humanitarian and health worker. I have three younger siblings, strong connections with extended family and grew up with an inclusive family environment and gatherings. We always had people staying foster kids and the like. My parents have always been very active community members wherever we lived. We moved around a lot when I was growing up. And they both hold strong ecumenical Christian beliefs in gendering in all of their children a keen awareness of civic responsibility. And also the need to be involved in a range of community activities, sports education, volunteering and so on. So we lived in several different locations in southeastern Australia, prior moving to the NT approximately 40 years ago. Actually, closer to 42. My parents moved to Darwin at the beginning of 1976 and my youngest brother and sister went to Darwin High. So I wasn't born here. Didn't really grow up here, but from here, if that makes sense. Dad worked for the YMCA and his job was to set up sport and rec programs in remote communities. One man, the entire Northern Territory, not a problem. As you can see by the photos that are there, they represent various aspects of my life. I was destined to become a nurse at an early age, but I fought that for a long time, eventually giving in and coming up here to do my nursing training in 1980. I was the first person in my immediate family to go to university, mostly due to the changes enacted by the Whitlam-Blaver government at the time in the mid-70s. I completed an arts degree majoring in Aboriginal Studies and Politics at the Australian National University in Canberra. Then, because I didn't want to be an anthropologist and still don't, I decided that I would do my general nursing training at Royal Darwin Hospital. I was in the first group in the new hospital for those that know it. I wanted to work in remote communities in the NT. After a few years of nursing, I thought the next logical step would be to broaden my professional skills and undertake a graduate diploma of education, which at the top was a primary because they didn't have adult education then. I worked as a teacher and educator in urban and remote communities for a further few years to consolidate my teaching practice. After that, I commenced a job writing for curricula for the original NT, Aboriginal Health Worker Courses at what was Bachelor College then, Bachelor Institute from the late 1980s. Despite having worked remote for several years, this was a steep learning curve for me. It was my first in-depth and sustained exposure to the contested and intensely political space of Indigenous health. I had no idea how my jugular survived, I'll never know. After five years, and the birth of my second child, I commenced work as a lecturer at the Faculty of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies at Fatsis, familiarly known as Fatsis at what was NTU and became CDU. I taught and coordinated numerous different courses there for nearly 10 years, and this was probably my second steep learning curve as the students were predominantly urban-based, and that just required significant recalibration on my part. On reflection, this was my first experience, really, of culture shock or significant culture shock or at least discomfort and dissonance. It really made me question my practice, which, as you will see, sort of led me on the cultural safety pathway. I think maybe this was because I was working from a position of assumed similarities amongst Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, and this was part of the journey of questioning assumptions and learning about the everyday realities of ongoing colonisation. As the students and I built our relationships, because I had those poor people for 30 hours a week for 18 weeks a semester, bombs forged in steel. But anyway, in the main part, we developed trust and knowledge, and I still have very strong connections with many of the students some 27 years later. During this period, I maintained my nursing registration and that professional skill set and undertook many short-term projects and consultancies for the government, and various archers, Aboriginal community-controlled health organisations. And with this pattern continuing for the next 15 years or so. Approximately 10 years ago, yeah, not almost 10 years ago, I experienced in a ciphony or catalyst that led to undertaking my PhD study. Because along the way, I did a Masters of Education, which was really interesting, because I've been teaching for a while by then. As part of a three-week remote orientation program for nurses, I co-facilitated a two-day workshop on working cross-culturally. Mr R was a young man, fresh off the plane from Tasmania and was heading out to a remote community in Arnhem Land with his wife and young child. During the introduction, he commented that he had not knowingly ever met an Aboriginal person, but he was feeling fairly confidently clinically and wasn't afraid to ask questions. About a third of the way into the first session on exploring culture and engaging in effective communication, Mr R signalled that he wished to speak and said, no offence, but this cultural safety stuff is bullshit and I can't see what it has to do with my job. Fair enough. I commended him on feeling comfortable enough to speak his mind and the group proceeded to have quite a robust discussion. But he and some others remained unconvinced and somewhat resistant to the idea, relevance and challenge of cultural safety. 18 months later, Mr R participated in an NT Department of Health workshop on chronic conditions where I was facilitating some sessions. He sought me out, much to my initial alarm and told me that he'd been thinking about what I said in the previous workshop and that now it was starting to make sense. This got me thinking and wondering what it was that was the catalyst for those light bulb moments and how educators and others could create opportunities for reflective and critical thinking. Eventually the question I asked was what preparation do health professionals need to work effectively and safely in Indigenous primary healthcare settings, urban, rural and remote? And that led me to eventually many years later completing my thesis. Just before I move on to the next slide, the middle slide, you can see there's an older Aboriginal man and a white man on the right. That's my dad and his best friend in the entire world. Both have passed. I have permission to use the photo. And the man on the left, he was a well-known painter and he had an outstation out of Guamrungbang, for those that know that area. And dad worked in that area. He worked out there for seven or eight years when he worked with cats. And they had the most beautiful friendship. And I think this is one of the things that, in fact, dad's ashes are out at Guamrungbang next to that old man and his wife. And I think that's just one of the things that keeps me true is that, really, it's all about the relationships. And in order to be culturally safe, it's about developing the trust and developing those relationships and working it out from there, really. Okay. So I'm going to, as Alison said, I'm talking about cultural safety, these sort of three main topical areas. So cultural safety as it stands, as a model, what culturally safe practice might look like. And I'm going to go through an example of a cultural safety framework. Because it's all very well talking about concepts and ideas and philosophies and what we should be doing. But how we actually do it, that's really the next big step. Excuse me while I catch up with myself. Okay. So why this topic? Well, you know, because just because I think I came into cultural safety. I was lucky enough for here, Irrahabdi Ramston, who was one of the main Maori generators of this model. And how much it resonated with me, working with people from other cultures, but not just people from other ethnicities, but also people from various groups and cultures. And the fact that what essentially drives me is the quest to, excuse me, working in air conditioning, it's not good for you. Health inequities, that sort of and cultural safety fits in quite nicely with that. But humans rights, but also it's about us as professionals, whether it's health education, community development, whatever, it's about us being accountable and knowing and being responsive to our professional mandates and addressing our ethical obligations. And the bottom line is that any culturally safe, culturally unsafe work practice leads to poor quality outcomes. Now, some of you will know a lot. Others won't know much. Others will have and everyone's got their own idea. So I'm just going to give an overview of cultural safety. There are many, many, many terms that are used interchangeably, like cultural awareness, cultural humility, cultural competency, and so on and so forth. They are not cultural safety. There is overlap, but they're not cultural safety and should not be used interchangeably. Okay, so it's originally, it's an Indigenous knowledge or construct. It has its roots in the field of nursing education and healthcare from Eritre Roa. Jesus, I hope I said that right. New Zealand, and it's based, as I said before, on the work of Dr. Irrahabdi Ramston and others. In terms of, and it was generated from the experience in questioning of some Maori student nurses and how their lecturers and others responded. It's about working towards social justice and better health outcomes for those experiencing health inequity. And there's quite a strong overlap between the philosophical frameworks of primary healthcare and community-controlled organisations. And I'll illustrate that a bit more specifically when I talk about the cultural safety framework. It's a decolonising model of practice based on dialogue, communication, power-sharing, and negotiation, and also acknowledgement of whiteness and privilege. It demands to challenge racism at personal and institutional levels and to establish trust in the encounters, whether it's health or whatever other area. And it also recognises, and took me a while to bring this to the front of my brain, that there are other Indigenous cultural domains that have a particular way of doing business that the mainstream can learn from. So cultural safety is a brilliant example of that. In many ways, it's a gift to the world, saying, look, this is a really great way of doing business. Look and learn. It's also, cultural safety is also about how people are treated in society. And it's not just about individuals having cultural self-awareness. It's very much systemic and structural and of course related in the health sector to the social determinants of health. It's also very clearly a philosophy of practice that is about how a professional does something, not necessarily what they do in order to not engage or perpetuate unsafe cultural practices. So it's how someone does something that's the critical thing there. And also in terms of nursing where it originated, and I think you can broaden this out, it represents a key philosophical shift from providing care regardless of race, creed, colour, which was trans-cultural nursing. So for a long time, nurses have been very proud that they treat all people the same. You know, I don't say colour, we treat all people the same. It's the precise opposite of what cultural safety is because cultural safety is about responding to the person that you have in front of you. It's also a process that requires hard conversations. It requires an ongoing process of self-reflection, cultural self-awareness to know who you are and what your beliefs, failures, and attitudes, world views and so on and how that impacts on your interactions with others. And also an acknowledgement of how these impact on care. And I've spotted my first typo. And this is, I think where a lot of people, many, many people struggle, cultural safety is not just about culture. It's not just about ethnicity. But all of us being human, we see the word culture or cultural and we go off on all these lovely little tangents. But cultural safety is not just about ethnicity. It's about all these things you see there, age, generation, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, religious or spiritual beliefs, gender, ability or disability. So, you know, there's a whole spectrum and different sections of population. And also it explicitly acknowledges that the various professions and workplaces have cultures. And it's just as applicable to the people that you work with as it is to actual service delivery. So it's not letting us off the hook, in other words. And you can only ever work, the bad news is, it's a bit like when I discovered that EnVivo wasn't actually going to analyse my data for me. Cultural safety, there is no end point. It's a lifelong journey, which will, I'm sure most of you have already figured out. So it's not about progress through certain levels of awareness. Even though you will see that, that's how it's set out in some texts and some people's ways of thinking about it. There's a staged or progressive model. So it's not a linear continuum. The process is a lifelong one. And one of the many things you have to keep in mind is that it isn't the study of any culture other than one's own. So you can be open minded and flexible towards others. So you're not going and learning about other cultures. That's not part of cultural safety. Well, it is, but it's not the key element. So figuring out what makes other people different is relatively straightforward. But understanding our own culture and how it's influenced on how we think, feel and behave is much more complex. That's where they, you know, that's where we have to do the reflective practice. So where are we? Lost my little, there it is. So this is what I'm now going to talk about is navigating the cultural safety maze. And it might feel like you're a little bit like a rat in a trap, but it's, you know, you will get there to wherever you're going, and then you keep on going. So what I'm going to talk about now is that negotiating culturally safe practice. And what I'm saying here is some very common experiences but it's not prescriptive. And it's a bit like a massive amount of information you get when you have a child. And a very, for example, a very well-meaning friend of mine when I had my first child gave me a book. It was one of the seminal texts on pregnancy and child rearing. And I read in my state, I read that the child should be dressing itself by the time they're five months old. That's what I read. Now, that's because you're, we all have different experiences and different ways of seeing things and different preparedness and different receptiveness and different states of being. So what I'm talking about in these next few minutes is like a bit of a soup of common experiences and how people may or may not progress. So these are stages or steps but they're not linear or a straight line progression. And I think probably the bottom line is that every individual needs to be supported to negotiate culturally safe practice. It's not something you can or should do on your own. So this is often where we start and puddle around for a while. The journey is different for each individual but there are some commonalities or overlap, as I said before. So the most common starting point or common state of being is that we're simply not prepared for culturally safe practice. It's not something you wake up necessarily knowing what to do. And it's where you have little knowledge or understanding of other cultures or even culture self-awareness. You get minimum preparation from your education and all your workplace. And you go through a range of fluctuating emotions. For example, feeling overwhelmed is very, very common and I'm sure we all experience that. Often feel guilty, fear and anxiety. There's sadness and there's quite often shame. When you find out who you are and the impact and also the position that you occupy in society. So then the majority of us, we start to navigate the maze where we try and sort of neutralise or minimise the differences in an effort to get along with people and not put yourself above other people. We're not so different. I've had troubles in my life as well or you might avoid seeing the differences and this is where a lot of people get stuck denying the need to change. Now I'm all right, it's just a matter of pushing through. And these are very common states of being and we all know people, we've all been there and we all know people that do it. So what we tend to do and what we need to do not always the same thing. Most commonly people will take the next step. So we'll wing it. We're in a new situation. What I'm used to doing isn't working or not working all that well. So let's see how we can work our way through this. And most people do this. And this is a good time where we can critically review the level of cultural self-awareness. Okay, so maybe it's something to do with me and how and who I am. And this is certainly what happened to me when I was coordinating the search for project offices, Aboriginal project offices course at the uni. I couldn't understand things. I developed good relationships with most of the students. Why they weren't, why so many still weren't completing or even handing in assignments, let alone completing. And so I had to take a good, hard look at myself and saying, okay, what is it? What is it about me and the situation? And make adjustments on that. Also, then you're looking for solutions. So you're sourcing information, education, looking for mentors. I was extremely lucky at where I was working at the time where I had so many fantastic colleagues to debrief with and mop up the blood if it had been a particularly tired day. And being able to, so looking for people that can mentor you and debriefing with peers. Absolutely, very, very necessary. And we all need that. It doesn't matter where we work, we all need that. So working towards being culturally safe. It's when you sort of, when you get to a point where you're considering a range of cultural differences and worldviews, so you're considering them. And certainly for those of us working in the NT or in an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander space, accepting the impact of colonisation on social, cultural and health outcomes has been significant and it is ongoing. And critically reflecting on your own values, beliefs, experiences and practices. It's so important. And as I've said a few times, this is a cycle or a spiral. Not a linear continuum with an end point. This is, I found this when I was putting this together. And this, I think this pretty well reflects the progress of my state of mind and where I'm currently at. You have light bulb moments and you have moments of like I don't get it and then oh yeah, here we go again. Okay, now cultural safety, you know, like anything, there are issues and challenges. The main one for me is the conceptual confusion, particularly where it positions cultural safety as only relevant to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander contexts. It certainly is directly relevant and incredibly necessary and useful, but it's not the only context. To do so basically knows the diversity of cultures, intra and intercultures and the existence of other cultural groups in Australia like LGBTQIA class. We all need to stop focusing on cultural awareness as a standalone. Yes, cultural awareness or self-awareness, cultural orientation, incredibly important. And many of us have thought long and hard to get this as part of at least orientation. We need to stop focusing on cultural awareness as a standalone and okay, like if you do, you know, this three hour workshop, you'll be fine. You'll be able to be at one with the people. And also to stop equating cultural safety with attempts to learn other people's culture that's simply not what it's about. And we have to continually grapple with the impact of our individual culture or cultures that is cultural self-awareness. And those of the systems and the society in which we work, it's ongoing. So culturally safe work practice, what does that actually mean? It's about having respect for culture, knowledge, experience and obligations where there is no assault or challenge of a person's identity. Everybody to be treated with dignity. So it's a mutual thing. It's about negotiating and sharing the power by recognizing client expertise and considering alternative ways of working. So it's about being flexible, essentially. And acknowledge the beliefs and understandings that people hold and in the bulk of the work that I've done concerning health and ill health. But these are strong determinants of their health related behaviors or any related behaviors. It might seem blindingly obvious to people, but when we're at the call face, we tend to forget or underestimate that, I think. Now, I'm going to talk about a cultural safety framework that I developed for a local archo, Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organization, or actually peak body. Now, those of you in the NT will know who I'm talking about pretty quickly, but I'll just try and keep it general. So after a minute, because it's all very well having a philosophy of practice. It's all very well having a sound and comprehensive orientation to the organization. But how do organizations actually do this? What are the practicalities? How do we actually do this? So in order for an organization to be culturally safe or be working towards being culturally safe, there needs to be a framework. There's a million and one frameworks around this cultural respect, cultural frameworks, a whole range of things. But how do we actually enact this? So this particular cultural framework that I developed in consultation and working with people from this particular organization. So this is the outline of the framework. So it's got a background in rationale. It's about embedding cultural safety in an organization. What it means for individuals, the organization and the systems we work in. And it's about how do individuals and the organizations negotiate culturally safe practice. There's a meeting in the room next door and they're very, very noisy. Cultural safety framework. Okay, so this is the example. So this cultural safety framework aims to facilitate a process for preparation of staff to work effectively in this particular sector. So it's about framing the whole process so that staff can come in and be effective and safe. It's about contributing to better preparation and support of staff. So it's about the first bits about orientation of the staff. So new people bringing them in and saying, okay, how can you work effectively with us? How can we get the best mutually beneficial deal? The second bits about a framework contributes to better preparation and ongoing support of staff so they can work towards cultural safety and ultimately lead to better outcomes for the people in their jurisdiction, for the clients in their jurisdiction. And it applies to everyone. It's not just for non-indigenous people coming in, but it's everyone coming into and working in the organization. So the rationale and purpose of the framework is that a framework provides a whole of organization approach. It includes cultural orientation programs that are sustainable and provide tools that enable the participants to do their job more effectively. One of the common criticisms of cultural awareness programs, like I said before, they have their place, but one of the common criticisms or concerns or maybe that's a bit strong, but a lot of the evidence shows that cultural awareness programs can be great. Interesting and provide some very useful information, but often they tend to be very generic. So they need to be contextualized. They need to be context dependent and generated. And they don't provide people with the tools to use this information to do their job more effectively. And that's what people want. Like they need a combination. They need the information, but they also need the tools. Okay, now that I know this, what's the relevance and how do I use it? The framework also embeds the process of critical reflection, which is a crucial component of any cultural orientation program specifically and culturally safe practice in general. So I'm probably, you know, teaching a few people to suck eggs here, but just in terms of cultural safety, critically reflective practice aims for cultural self-awareness, where the self refers to both individuals like staff and organizations, requires practitioners and organizations to recognize and accept that their culture's impact on practice. It's a process of inquiry where people can identify and challenge their values, beliefs, and attitudes and assumptions, their social position and standpoint. And that can be very challenging. It enables the power sharing and negotiation that I talked about before between practitioners and the organizations they work for, because it's simply not enough to be nice. You have to acknowledge the power differentials and how then the impact that that has. This is in order to limit the impact of professional and service cultures on the social practice of decision making. So people can genuinely negotiate decisions that benefit them. So the aim of the project, sorry, the framework was to provide an organization-wide cultural safety framework, adopting multiple approaches. The objectives were to map out what cultural safety is to that particular organization, to provide a template of how to negotiate culturally safe practice, and to address recruitment and retention issues. Because for many, many reasons, recruitment and retention is a huge issue, and having a cultural safety framework is one way of addressing this. So the core values of the framework were based on the principles of cultural safety, which I won't go into again, so fast to say that that's what informed this particular framework. So the framework's principles based, and it was underpinned by a broad set of principles. So there were archo primary healthcare principles and principles from a couple of other, a couple of other sets of principles that were directly relevant and cultural safety. And those four sets there are the, what came out of mapping all those principles, and so they're the four key areas in terms of principles, if that makes sense. Now these principles then inform the three domains. So three domains, leadership and accountability, self-determination, community control and empowerment, creating a strong, supportive, strong and resilient and culturally safe workforce. So the, and the three domains then inform the outcomes, which we'll see in a minute. I'm not gonna go through each of those, you'll be very pleased to hear each of those three domains, but basically for each domain, it sets out what the focus is and the actions that are required from whom or what. So this is where the practical, the practicalities of the framework are beginning to be specified. So what do you have to do as a leader? What do you have to do as an organisation? What do you have to do as an individual? And that's just the second slide because we couldn't all fit it into the first one. Now the outcomes of the framework will be a cultural safety policy for the organisation, a code of conduct in regarding cultural safety and the reconciliation action plan. Many organisations still struggle with even getting a wrap up, but that's not to replace or in lieu of a cultural safety framework. A wrap's a very important part or an outcome of a cultural safety framework. For this particular organisation, the cultural orientation modules, the six cultural orientation modules, capacity building and upskilling, so in terms of ongoing staff development and formal roles for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff, including educators, mentors and advisors. So it would be formally recognised as part of their roles and they would be remunerated for those. Ultimately, the thing to take away is that it's the receiver of the services who determine if your service was culturally safe or not. A quick little plug and shameless self-promotion for a book that I co-edited, which was published last year. I think that's pretty much it. I believe that your co-conveners of the session are going to manage if there are any questions. But what I want you to be thinking about is one key message that you'll take away from today's session, apart from the fact that I can talk a lot. And now I'm going to stop sharing. You'll be very relieved to know. Thank you very much, Robin. I've got one question here in the chat from earlier on in the session. And it says, I'm very interested to hear from you about the distinction between cultural humility and cultural safety. Is the latter the only model we should focus on in healthcare settings? People, really, it's up to people and various organisations to decide what they want to work with and why. Like it really is. Because I'm not saying one is better to use than the other. But what I am saying is not to use various terms interchangeably. Because cultural humility is not the same as cultural safety. I did quite a bit of work with IHA, Indigenous Allied Health Australia. They've chosen a cultural responsiveness framework. They developed a cultural responsiveness framework. They see cultural responsiveness as an action of cultural safety. And that's the path that they've taken. I think it's not a matter of what... Look, I don't really want to sort of go down the rabbit hole of what cultural humility is. But I think perhaps humility is a component of cultural safety. Like self-awareness is also a component of cultural safety. But cultural humility and other such terms, to my mind, they're not decolonising models of practice. They're not about power or social justice or equity. They're about behaving in a certain way. So that's fine. It's not wrong. But for me, it doesn't have the broadness and applicability of cultural safety. That's it. Okay, Robin, there are a few other questions in the chat. I'll just go through them. So can you please list the key outcomes again, please? So maybe the outcomes of the... Of the framework. Safety framework. Yeah, sure. And people will be able to get a copy of this, I think. Yes. What do you call it? The slides. Yeah. Now I've just got to find it now. So there were four outcomes of the framework. A cultural safety policy. Code of conduct on cultural safety. And a reconciliation action plan. So that was one set of documents. Cultural orientation modules, six. And acknowledgement of capacity building and upskilling for staff development. And formal roles for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff. Educators, mentors and advisors. Okay, Mark has asked for the name of the book to go into the chat, please. And I'll have to get you to do that in a minute, Robin. Unless I go back to the name of it. Do you want to just repeat the name? You think that I wouldn't... I'll do that. Okay. Thank you. Given the... So it's called cultural diversity and health in Australia towards culturally safe care. And it's by Routledge. Or however you say it. It was published last year, 2021. Okay. There's another question. You spoke earlier about having a mentor in cultural safety. Should this be an Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal person? I didn't have a mentor in cultural safety as such. I had... No, not in cultural safety. I think we're talking about two different things here. I had... I sought out people that could mentor me in terms of ways of working in that particular context, which was with... in the Faculty of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander study. And how the heck do you... How the heck do you do this? So I had people, like people with various experiences who'd been there a lot longer than I had. And you know, so we... Yeah, there are a couple of people that mentored me. Certainly in terms of figuring out the theory of things. In the mentors that I'm talking about as formal Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, the staff roles, that's a different thing. They would be mentoring new people that would come into the organisation and working with them for as long as they needed to. But that's a different thing. So in terms of mentors, it wouldn't have to be necessarily an Aboriginal and or Torres Strait Islander person. For example, if the person was... It started work with, say, the Northern Territory HLVA's council, they would need mentoring there, perhaps, to have a mentor there that could inculcate them and orientate them to those ways of working and the groups of people that they were working with. So that's more what I meant in terms of mentor. Okay, Robin. A question from Tamara. How do you facilitate self-awareness to happen? In my experience, the understanding bias courses rarely prompt people to genuinely self-reflect. It's such a hard space to support. Don't get me started on unconscious bias. Yeah, I'm not a fan of the whole unconscious bias thing. I think it's a particularly North American thing. And it's related to, and I think probably a descendant of the work that a woman called Jane... Very brave work that a woman called Jane Elliott used to do. Blue eyes, brown eyes. But there's a lot of... And some people in Australia, a couple of people in South Australia also did some similar work. But it's very fraught. Yeah, look, it is tricky, but the way I actually address that area is that's when we explore who we are. So I used to teach a unit called Cultural Safety and Health Care. And we would start by... I know people are a lot of people who are going to grow, but we would start by getting people to do a mind map of their cultural selves, of their cultural identity. And inevitably, there'd be so many non-Indigenous people would go, I don't really know what to put here. But it's just getting people to that point to think about who they are and what they are. That's where you start the work. So people can... Oh, so the fact that I'm a third generation do-gooder, that's why I'm still trying to rescue people even in the mid-60s. So, you know, there's a lot of work to be done on ourselves. Okay, thanks, Robin. There's another related question. It's from Rachel. Is reflective practice a necessary mechanism to promote cultural safety? So what skills or training do those who are supervising need to have? Well, yeah, I think I've said probably a couple of times that critical reflective practice is a key component of cultural safety. You have to be able to take a good hard look at yourself and do that continually. Like, I still stuff up. I still make mistakes. I'm still not perfect. I still project way too much onto people. And being a reflective practitioner is very, very much part of that. And everyone needs to do that. I think I've forgotten the rest of the question. So if reflective practice is a component, so what skills are trained do those who are supervising need to have? I guess that's how do you... Well, it's part of everyone. That's why it's necessary for everybody to go through some kind of staff development or process where they do critical reflection. So say for the art show that I was the Community Controlled Health Organization that I developed the framework for, they will have the six cultural orientation modules. But part of the ongoing development will be then like sort of follow-up workshops, if you like, where people can get together and do a brief and say, look, this happened. How could I have done this better? How could I have done things differently? So having the opportunities, I think, for staff to do that. All staff. So not just supervisors or, you know, open office dwellers. Everyone needs to do it. But it needs to be a recognised, regularly scheduled, resourced part of the staff development. Hey, Robin, I've got a comment and a question together. So this is from Beth. And she says, thank you so much, Robin. That was a great presentation. And the question is, I work in a research centre for natural hazards. We're currently developing a reconciliation action plan. And I'd be very interested to eventually work with someone to develop a cultural safety framework. Is there a group or organisation who might be able to help us do this? Short answer, no. But that's fantastic that you're, that's where you're thinking is that that's really, really good. And to be able to see that RAPs are part of the process, but not the whole process. So that's really good. And that's a start. And I think, you know, what would be really nice if we could have some kind of repository where a cultural safety framework template exists. And where people can go in and have a look at that and then sit with the organisation and work it out themselves. Because it has to come from within the organisation. It has to reflect what you, what the organisation needs to be. Yeah. And hire a consultant. That's assuming there's money to do that, of course. But it's not, and it's like many things. It's not often given priority. Okay. Robin Kelly says, thank you, Robin. As an Aboriginal psychologist, it's nice to hear a presentation that sits with my values. Thank you. Thank you. And from Shuli. I hope I've got that right. Dear Robin, it was an excellent presentation, resonated so well with my experience working in the field of Aboriginal health and education for more than 15 years. I've had those. Uh-huh. So many times. And from Anne, thanks for a great presentation. My takeaway is the vital importance of genuine reflection and self-awareness as a basis for self-organisational and practice improvement. And thank you, Anne, for that reflection. Yeah. You can't do it on your own, basically. Or you shouldn't have to do it. But it starts with you, but you don't do it on your own. Okay. And Hayley has just put in a resource. So she says the, well, which is AES. So AES has a first national cultural safety framework on their website. It's a pretty handy document with some checklists and links to other resources. Eddie, can I just comment on that? Because I've had a good look at that. Where are the comments? I did have some comments to say about that. So I think it's first nations rather than first national. Yeah. Yes. No, I can't find it now. Because I've had a good look at that framework. And it is, and I'm not trying to trivialize this or say anything negative about it at all. But it is aimed at everyone, Torres Strait Islander people. And I still think that we need to be looking at all, like a range of contexts, not just focusing on one particular ethnicity. Because that's not what, as I said a few times, that's not what cultural safety is meant to be about. And that was coming from Irrahavadi Ramston herself. Robin, there's a really good question in the chat. Yes. When you feel that your cultural safety has been affected, how do you tell the other person? Look, again, that would have to be addressed in context. That is really, really hard. I was talking to an Aboriginal colleague a few weeks ago where someone had said to them, oh, I didn't even know you were Aboriginal. Like that was okay to say. And so we talked about ways that can be addressed. Because it's a really fine line between challenging people and shutting them down and cementing their prejudices. And it's a really fine line. And I think as allies, us non-Indigenous people have to be prepared to step up and take that on as well. It's really, it's a very tricky thing, but it's context dependent. Because you don't want to be that person, the angry person. Yet a time, it's tricky. Okay, Robin, I think we're going to have to wrap up. We've just gone over the one o'clock timeframe and I know people are having to leave and get to other meetings or to other commitments. So I'd just like to thank you so much for your time and sharing your expertise with us. It was really informative and interesting. And really great to hear about your stories and where it came from for you.