 and welcome to the nonprofit show. We are so glad you're here. Today's guest is Cindy Wagman and we're really excited to have her here. We were just bragging about how Cindy and I saw each other. IRL in real life at the AFB icon in New Orleans recently. So it's really good to have you here, Cindy. For those of you watching and listening, Cindy is the president and CEO at the Good Partnership. And she's here to talk to us today about fractional executives and to see if your nonprofit might be ready for a fractional executive. So before we dive into the conversation, Cindy, we have a couple of housekeeping to cover, but we wanna remind your viewers and our listeners, if we haven't met yet, Julia Patrick is here, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jared Ransom, you're a nonprofit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group and honored to serve alongside as co-host. We are so extremely grateful to have our amazing partners, our presenting sponsors. So a huge shout out to our friends at Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd as well as nonprofit tech talk. Please check these companies out. I like to remind everyone that their mission is really your mission because they wanna help you do more good in around and throughout your community. So do us a solid, do them a solid but do your mission a solid and check them out because they're really amazing organizations. Hey, the latest and greatest, if you haven't heard yet, we now have an app so you can download the app. We also have Vanna White on the show. I like to mention that. Yes, exactly. Thanks for the laughter, Cindy. I really appreciate that. You can also find us on streaming podcast, or sorry, streaming broadcast as well as podcast. So pretty much wherever you absorb your entertainment, you can find the nonprofit show. And today's conversation with Cindy will be up on all of these platforms in just a few hours. So without further ado, we are so glad to introduce you, Cindy. Welcome back, Cindy Wagman, president and CEO of The Good Partnership. Welcome. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, really glad. We're thrilled you're here, Cindy. And Jared, I'm gonna let you catch your breath. I know you're at a higher altitude. Can you hear it? I can. I'm like concerned for you. Cindy, talk to us about The Good Partnership. And before we get into this really interesting concept, a fractional leadership, talk to us about what it is that you do so that we can kind of get a lens for this discussion. So that has evolved a lot over the years, but now what I do fundamentally is, I've sort of created what I call a fractional fundraising movement where I help small and long profits find fractional fundraisers and I teach experienced fundraisers how to set up their own business and become a fractional fundraiser. So that's sort of the one big bucket. And then I also help a nonprofit serving coaches and consultants build their businesses. I absolutely love it so much. And I feel like I've been a fractional fundraiser for a lot of my career and never called it that. And so I really love the movement that you've coined and created and built support systems around. So we so desperately need this in our sector. Yeah, and I seem as you like, when I started consulting in 2015, I was doing fractional fundraising without really calling it that or understanding. And grew a whole team. I actually grew a small agency where we provided fractional fundraising services. But over the last few years, this idea of a fractional executive is becoming more and more prevalent in the entrepreneur space and small business space and in the nonprofit sector. So there's definitely a shift in awareness and we now have a term for what we've been doing all these years. Well, let's get to it and have you, I guess if you will, define this. Define what this means. I think, you know, we see the word fractional and we're like, well, I know what a fraction is. But talk to us a little bit more about the nuances of this concept. Yeah, like my 11 year olds can probably understand conceptually fractions. He's learned it in math, like we all have, but we have never applied it to this context. But when you think about it, you know, a fraction is a part of a whole. And what you're doing when you hire a fractional executive is you're hiring someone at an executive level for a fraction of their time, usually a fraction of the cost as it would usually be to hire them full time. And the benefit I would say for organizations is that it stretches your budget, right? It allows you to hire up or hire at the higher end of what kind of experience with a kind of that executive position instead of hiring someone junior or more of a coordinator position. So it allows organizations to stretch. It does mean that when you hire a fractional executive, they're not an employee. So you are not hiring someone part time. They're managing their time. Usually you pay them not by the hour but like a monthly retainer and you let them do their thing but they're part of the team in a meaningful way. I just really appreciate this so much and I feel like there's such a need for this. I'm on many forums across the internet and I see smaller organizations that are ready to hire a full-time person and they're not quite sure how to do it. And I feel like hiring a fractional exec, bringing someone in to start their development initiatives is probably the best place to begin. Yeah, I mean, how this started for me is I've worked in small organizations and I've worked in very large organizations. And small organizations, they start to get ready to hire. And my experience is in fundraising but I think this is true in all of these, the types of positions you can use in fractional executive but they scroll away their budget and they're like, we're ready, we can invest and their budget means that they're probably hiring someone within the first three or so years of their career. And what happens is that person comes in and they're overwhelmed and they don't actually know how to use their time effectively. They don't have the strategic experience and in fundraising, you often get sort of like pulled in so many different directions because everyone thinks they know better than you, especially when you don't have that much experience. And so you spend a lot of time doing things that aren't moving the needle that aren't meaningful. So we started this because I saw a lot of consultants give advice, which is great. Some organizations need a fundraising plan or need that strategy but the small organizations actually need implementation and they need it consistently. And if you don't hire someone with that sort of expertise I see a lot of organizations not get the results they want and that investment which is huge for them, right? It's such a significant step and they don't see the return or they don't get what they're hoping for out of it. So I envision this as a bit of a bridge from like no staff to being able to build out more of a team. Yeah. I appreciate that. And what I say to hiring at a higher level allows you the opportunity to then hand over the blueprint if you will to the new hire that might be a little more junior but then they have the plan and if they can execute and maybe even like tweak it to what their strengths are not to say that it's the end all be all but it gives them a roadmap. Exactly. A clear and proven roadmap, right? You're doing this. I would say like work with a fractional executive for at least a year, maybe even a couple of years and build the consistency so that things are proven they're tested and it's a lot easier to keep things going. The other thing I would say if you're an executive director looking to hire a fractional fundraiser or a fractional CMO or fractional HR, the stress and oversight that comes or the oversight and stress that comes with the oversight of having to manage people is taken off your shoulders because you don't have to worry about someone without experience, right? They're coming in as an expert where you don't have to lose sleep every night worrying about are they doing the right things? Am I gonna, you know, are we gonna see results? Do I trust what they're thinking and saying and doing? So from a stress perspective I also think it's really significant because we know nonprofit leaders are already wearing too many hats and actually right now I think it's really, really difficult to be hiring in our sector. And so fewer people are taking on bigger jobs they don't need the stress. Let's just get rid of that piece. So, you know, you mentioned something I mean, you started off and we're talking about fundraising but then you kind of dipped your toe in the water to what this ecosystem might look like. It's not just for one type of leadership position. Talk to us about where we might apply this concept. So I've seen this work really well with CFO so fractional finance, HR, marketing, fundraising as we said, there are also people who do this at the executive director level more like in terms CEO but still with that fraction fractional perspective they might work with a number of organizations. I mean, those are the ones that I think are most common but also the pieces that organizations stress out about the most, you know your program or most small organizations like you're pretty solid in the programming area you don't necessarily need that evaluation might be something though as well like having an evaluator or someone who can manage some of that piece. So I would say if it's not core to your program delivery you can probably find a fractional executive to do that. It's so interesting. You know, I'm curious about this one thing do you identify this in the title? I know with Interim and Jared I'd love for your feedback on this. You will see that Interim CEO, Interim CFO but with fractional, do you identify that? So that's a great question. And I think it varies depending on the organization's comfort level most of the fractional fundraisers that I work with you get set up with an organizational email address and all of that. So sometimes I'll see them do fundraising consultant but within the organization absolutely though I think there's a lot of people embracing this. And like I said, it exists outside of our sector as well so it's becoming more understood it's becoming more understood and accepted as a position that can exist. So I have definitely seen I've also worked with fractional HR people and I mean that's more of an internal facing role so I think it's a little different but I think it can be creative with your title especially if you're external facing. And for me, Julia, I agree wholeheartedly with everything Cindy said it's always been dependent on the organization itself, right? Like where are they most comfortable? But I wave the flag so like loud and proud that this is a strategic move. It's nothing to be ashamed of, right? It's nothing to hide an interim or a fractional it is strategy. And so why an organization would shy away from that? It tells me they don't fully understand it. That's where I come from and I don't know if you agree with that Cindy but that's where I see them wanting to keep because no, this is the CEO and it's like, no, it's interim because it's strategic. And in fact, I think like they're really proud I've had organizations where they think they've just discovered like insulin, right? Like they're just like, this is the best thing ever to happen to our organization everyone needs to hear about this or I've had donors connect us with other organizations that they're a part of and they support because they think the other organization needs it. So they become champions for this model as well because it does solve so many complicated problems in a very easy solution. And I love when I hear that there's funders in my community too that understand it and we'll find that position strategic. Yeah, well, it really is an investment. We're seeing that I'm in Toronto, Canada and we're seeing a little bit of that with some of the funding that's coming out of our government around rebuilding after COVID and they're looking at capacity building and this is very much within that not all funders understand the value of investing in this but it truly can be transformative for an organization in as I said, like that leap in getting them rapid growth without huge investment. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about brass tacks, right? Like if someone's listening to this and they're like, okay, this sounds great I'm drinking the Kool-Aid, Cindy keep pouring the Kool-Aid. What's something like this cost, right? Like what should an organization plan to budget for the cost of using fractional executives? So as with any good question, the answer is it depends. What I would say is look at what it would cost you to hire someone full-time in a junior position in that role and that would be a starting point for me. I've found that fractional executives can outlap the work and efficiency of someone in that role. So usually that's where you're looking at a great return on your investment and it's sort of a good anchor. And I also think it depends on what the position you're trying to fill is but yeah, it definitely varies. It varies where you live. If you are in Toronto or New York or a big city, everything is more expensive than if you're in a very small town in a rural community. So there's lots of considerations but I always look at your local market and wait, you're realistically budgeting. So I'm not talking about the organizations that say like we have $5,000 a year for a fundraising coordinator. That's not realistic. What's a realistic wage for someone in the first one to three years? Factor in all of the expenses that you would pay someone on payroll. So it's not just what their pay is but it's the benefits, it's the this. Those costs are significant and that gives you a bit of a range. So are you saying that this contract, I'm gonna use the word contract should include time off, vacation benefits? No, I'm saying wrap those into what you're comparing the cost to. So yes, this is a consultant. So you're paying them as a consultant or contractor. They manage their benefits, they manage their time off. You don't need to worry about all those amazing things. You don't need to worry about the overhead costs and the computer breaking down or anything like that. But as you think about comparing what your realistic budget would be, like I said, sort of look at the full cost of hiring someone junior as a pretty good starting point. And then as a follow-up to that, could you give us a guideline for what we can expect for time served during the week? Is it like 10 hour, 20 hour? I mean, is it, you know, it's going to vary. I would imagine what you're working on but is there kind of a sweet spot that you're seeing with fractional leadership? Yeah, so I will say it definitely is a bit of a time roller coaster, right? So we all know we've worked in this field for a long time in our sector. There are months when things are very, very busy and there are months when things are quiet. The reason I like retainer models is that you as an organization don't need to budget or you don't have variability in your budget. So you are paying consistently and they manage their time. So you don't have to look at time sheets. You don't have to worry about any of that. That being said, I would say if you're looking at a fractional executive director type role or an interim ED, I think like one to two clients at a time is probably like, I always look at it as what's their overall capacity to deliver. So in the ED role, like one to do clients from what I've seen seems to be capacity. And so I'd be looking at around a third to a half of someone's time. In fundraising, I'd say three to four fractional clients, it makes up a full-time workload. So again, you're looking at a quarter to a third of someone's time, but it varies. And Jarrett, you can probably speak to this as well. It varies so significantly. You might find there's a month with like two or three really big grants and a direct appeal package and then there's a month when there's nothing. And so if you're thinking about becoming a fractional exec, know that there are ups and downs and it's your responsibility to manage that. And on the client side, if you're an organization hiring someone, the work gets done. And again, it's that taking away the headache, like you don't have to worry about it. You're not tracking, you're not thinking, are they out of hours? Do I have to give them extra work to fill hours? You just don't worry about it. Right, yeah. Yeah, and for me, what I do is if it's an organization that has an established budget, so it's not a brand new position, is what were they paying their previous development director? So let's say the person resigned and they want to fill it, but they wanna use an interim or fractional to be strategic. It's a very transparent conversation. And for me, it has to be, right? Like what did you budget for this person? And then I add on 20 to 30% for those additional benefits that Cindy was talking. Yeah, good. Thank you for that candor, because I think it's really an interesting thing. Not only is it a re-imagining of leadership and workload, but it's also changing the way you're budgeting and you're spending your money. And I love what you said at the beginning, Jared. If you don't understand this full concept of it, it can be a really, it can be burdensome to try and figure this out. Yeah, cause I always say, like it really is a strategic move, right? Like it is a boss move and it's not a babysitter. Like it's not like we're coming in as a substitute teacher or a babysitter. Like we're coming in with high level expertise, ready to move the needle in a fast pace time. Yeah, one of the things I always say to organizations is you're not getting like the pleaser, the person who you can just delegate stuff to. You know, we do all the implementation work, but you're getting the strategic oversight that's gonna tell you when something's not worth doing. And so you find that there's a lot of trimming of the excess of busy work that happens in organizations. We've all seen it. And so you're getting that laser focus. We mean business, come in and get the work done. And so sometimes that means, like I've said, no declines. I've said, that's not a good use of our time where strategically I can tell you that's not a good decision. We're not doing it. And I've also pushed them when they've been uncomfortable to add another email to the appeal series. I said, you hired a fractional executive because I'm gonna tell you strategically what's gonna work. Now we are comfortable with, but what is meaningful? And we're just gonna, we're gonna do it, so. I love this. Okay, so we've been spending a little bit of time on a big concept. And I've gotta believe that there are viewers of the nonprofit show that are out there going, wait a minute, this could be something that I would like to be a part of, on the other side of the desk. What does that look like? And we don't have that much time, but how can somebody currently maybe looking to shift their career or their time spent to get engaged as a fractional leader? So, I mean, reach out. I have a program called the Fractional Fundraiser Academy. You can go to the goodpartnership.com or beafractionalfundraiser.com. It's closed right now. There's a wait list, but I also coach other people on how to start and establish their consulting businesses. So I can work with you. Sadly, there are not like a ton of resources around this yet because it is still a little new, but that's that I help a lot. I've worked with a number of fractional marketers to build their businesses. And I definitely think that this is a great opportunity, especially I'm seeing a lot of people who don't want the full-time work or don't want the nine to five. Like I work with a lot of people who've young kids and they want to pick up their kids at three o'clock every day and all those things. So you get a lot of control over your career in a way that you just don't have in-house. So the goodpartnership.com or CindyWagman.com are the best places to find me. Or LinkedIn at CindyWagman. Cindy, thank you. This is so amazing. I love what you're doing for so many people, but missions across the globe, it's really critical. So thank you for sharing this amazing opportunity. I do have a sneaky suspicion that there's gonna be more leaders that are going to want to go this route. My phone is ringing off the hook if I could keep up with the pace. So I would love to have more colleagues to say, I'm not available, please call so-and-so because it's needed. And I think organizations are starting to really, Julia, get their hands around it and say, okay, yeah, this is a boss move and this is what we're gonna do. Well, I mean, so much. And Jared, you and I have been talking about this for 800 plus episodes, now in our fourth year, we have seen a complete change in the way we are all thinking about labor. We are all thinking about how we work, structure, the implementation of technology in the way we work and the way we manage. I just feel like this is a natural extension of that and that also it dovetails perfectly into an aging leadership demographic and a changing demographic in what people want and the way they want to work, right? So I think it ticks a lot of those boxes, but Jared, to your point, it's such a new concept that it can seem to be a little radical. It shouldn't, it shouldn't. Well, the thing I like to point out and I'm gonna call Cindy out on this as well, like if you can see us, you can see we are not in retirement age, right? Like this is a career path we have chosen and it's not our swan song by way of a retirement phase. Like this is what we choose to do and not to say that it's not a bad, retirement phase either because it's probably something I will continue to do. But I just love that because you're seeing a more diverse age audience as well in this space. Yeah. I would just reinforce that. I am seeing some people who are sort of sick of the big organizations and the grind of that who are closer to retirement age, but most people I'm seeing are definitely not. They have young families. They are, or they've been burnt out both by toxic cultures or that more and more and more mindset that comes with some scarcity in our sector. And so people are looking in, Julia, you kind of referenced this. People are looking at doing things differently where we're not compromising all of the things that are important to us to do the work that's important to us that those things can exist together. And I think the leaders who are embracing this are visionary in the sense that they understand that we can create a better way of doing things. Absolutely. You've created a better way for us today on the nonprofit show. Cindy Wagman, president and CEO of The Good Partnership. Check out Cindy's site at thegoodpartnership.com where you can learn a lot more about the work that she's doing, her podcast, great content on your website and also how you can navigate more fully into training or understanding how this might be a good fit for you. Really interesting conversation, Jared, don't you think? I mean, you live this to a certain extent, but I just think it's fascinating. I really, really do. Yeah, I love the momentum that it's getting at the traction, the understanding, the willingness to step out on the skinny branch and take a chance. I love it. I think it's really, really amazing. Hey, we don't have much time left. I wanna say thank you, everybody. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd with us today. Tomorrow, Ms. Jared, talk to us about that. Yeah, I'll be in San Diego. So I'm getting around this summer, that's for sure, but I'm about to catch a flight. Yeah, and then I will be at the inaugural Cultivate Conference with our friends at the Fundraising Academy at National University. So we will be doing a live broadcast tomorrow, and I have a presentation at the conference as well, as well as our friends at Bloomerang. So Josh will be there presenting at the conference. So please tune in, both Thursday and Friday will be broadcasted live from San Diego at the conference. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun. I know that our friends at Fundraising Academy are really excited to have convened all these different folks from throughout the country, and it's gonna be, I think, just a really great opportunity to learn about a lot of different things. It's not just fundraising, but management, and just the whole ecosystem of our sector and how it's changing. So if you're able to go IRL in real life, check out Jared and go buy him where she's broadcasting from and definitely meet her. It'll be a lot of fun. Hey, again, everybody, we wanna thank our presenting sponsors who are with us day in and day out, and they include our friends at Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, non-profit thought leader, Fundraising Academy at National University in beautiful San Diego, I just gotta say, that's where Jared will be, staffing boutique, non-profit nerd, and non-profit tech talk. These are the folks that are with us day in and day out and really make these broadcasts possible. Well, ladies, you have made this an amazing day. I've really, really enjoyed this, and I think that we're gonna have a lot more of this conversation moving forward. So thank you so much. Thank you, Cindy. Thanks so much. Hey, everybody, we like to end every episode with our mantra, and it goes something like this. Stay well, so you can do well.