 Hello and welcome to My Career in Data, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers. I'm your host, Shannon Kemp, and today we're talking to Jason Foster, the CEO at Cinnature. More and more companies are considering investing in data literacy education, but still have questions about its value, purpose, and how to get the ball rolling. We're doing the newest monthly webinar series from DataVersity, Elevating Enterprise Data Literacy, where we discuss the landscape of data literacy and answer your burning questions. Learn more about this new series and register for free at DataVersity.net. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp, and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at DataVersity, and this is My Career in Data, a DataVersity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to DataVersity.net forward slash subscribe. Today, we are joined by Jason Foster, the CEO at Cinnature. And normally, this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest, but in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about. Jason, hello and welcome. Hi. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Oh, thanks for being here. Great. Okay, so tell me. So you're the CEO at Cinnature. So what is Cinnature and what is it that you do? Great. Yeah. So Cinnature, we're a data and analytics strategy company. So we help organizations to understand the potential that exists within their organization where data can play a part and we help people reach that potential. And I'm the founder and chief exec and I've been scaling this business for the last seven years. Wow. Very exciting. Well, we'll get into how you got there in a minute. So we'll definitely come back to that. So if, but tell me, Jason, so when you were just a very young person in what in the US we call elementary school, you know, was this the dream? Did you grow think when I grow up, I want to be a founder and CEO of an analytics company. I'm not even sure I felt that when I started the company. So I definitely didn't feel like that when I was at primary school was the equivalent. No, I did. I, no, I don't, I don't think I think it grew the idea of launching my own business grew as I was, you know, early in my career and as I was learning a lot more and saw some opportunity to do things differently from how I saw organizations do it. But now I actually have no recollection of what I wanted to be when I grew up, when I was younger. I've been asked that before and I honestly couldn't tell you, I have no memory of always wanting to be something, you know, an astronaut or, you know, a soccer player, a football player or anything like that. So, so no, this just happened. So when you were going through school, you know what were there certain subjects that you like that you focused on that you gravitated towards, you know, as you went through, you know, school and then to university. Yeah. Do you know what? I the ones that I have a real strong fond memory of the either the subject or the teacher more, more appropriately with were the ones like business studies, the ones that were a little bit more vocational and taught me about the world. And I don't know the real world actually. And and and that wasn't by choice, but I just look back and I go actually the things I really enjoyed were those ones where I could sort of get hands on with with living and hands on with with the way, you know, business in the world worked and and certainly when I got to to university and sort of higher education, I zoomed into that a bit more and and leaned on a course that was focused on business leadership, management and information management, information systems, it was called. And so it's like a real nice mix of all the kind of like angles of what is now the career that I ended up in, which was around business. It was around achieving outcomes for organizations. It was understanding how systems and processes and data and technology plays a part in organizations and how to be a manager and a leader in in organizations. And it was such a great foundational course again, looking back that it put me in a good stead for for building a career in in what I ended up doing. Oh, I love that. Yeah, it definitely is a is a nice correlation there. So when did you go from there after university? What was your career path? Yeah, I during my course was a what we call here a sandwich course. So you were you university for a year, you go and work for a year and then you go back to university for the final two years of education, one year of working and then final year where you do your your dissertation and get your final grade and in that year, I worked in a retailer in the UK called Debenham's and I was doing project management and business analysis was the kind of the role that I had for a year and I was collecting business requirements and I was launching new systems from within the retail head office. So when I finished my university degree, I went back there on the graduate scheme and worked my way around the organization front of house retail to finance to procurement to supply chain to technology and what's my way around the business and ended up in a customer analytics and a data and business intelligence and data science function within sort of straddle technology and marketing. And I learnt my craft about data and how data can play a part to drive better marketing campaigns, but drive the business as a whole and about early kind of understanding of data warehouses and how technology knits together to create dashboards and reports. And and then I left there after a few years when I joined a niche UK based data warehousing and business intelligence consultancy and what we used to do as a small team at the time, we used to go into organizations and help them define KPIs for their business as kind of strategic board level and then help to build systems and reports and dashboard that help to visualize those KPIs and cascade the communication of those those KPIs and driving some of the behavior that the board is looking to drive through the organization. So it was sort of data and before it became big data and before it became sort of data science, but it was really that kind of heartland of helping to work at how do you build an organization that uses data and metrics and KPIs to really understand how the business is performing and drive performance that way. And and then I left there after about 10 years and I joined a global retailer called Marks and Spencer sort of headquartered in the UK, but global and online. And I ran a new initiative focused on big data and enabling the organization with big data and plugging that into the roots and branches of the business at the sort of the physical retail all the way through to digital loyalty, marketing, supply chain, e-commerce sort of end to end with the business and giving data a really big name and an opportunity in the organization to really drive that forward. And then I left there and set up the business. So sort of like a bit of a kind of like data thread through all of it and a business thread through all of it that's really kind of stood me in good stead. Oh, that's I love that. And so so tell me what was how did you make that? It's a very big decision to start a business. Yeah. Well, what was the driver? How did you say I'm going to go do this? I when I was in a consulting business for about 10 years, I'd started it. I joined it sorry when they were about 10 people and we got acquired when we were about 100 people and I stayed there for a little bit longer. And I always felt that that was something that I could do. And then when I when I left there and went into industry, I wanted to kind of experience sort of being the change and sort of seeing that change actually happen rather than advising from the outside. And because we were doing some quite innovative new fresh things within the team I was in and the work we were trying to do. There wasn't really an advisor company that was out there that I could really lean on to help give me advice about how to really do these things properly. So I kind of like this burning desire to sort of came back to go, I want to create this business that I wish existed now so that I could get them to help me to be really good at the job I was doing at the time at Marks and Spencer. So an opportunity came to move on. I took Christmas off one year and I sat at my kitchen table at the start of the new year and played around with some ideas about what the market might need for support and help and guidance with becoming more a data guided business. And yeah, I tried out a few ideas, tried out a few propositions, spent a lot of time talking to my wife trying to convince her it was a good thing to do, which she sort of half bought into and just said let's see how it goes. And yeah, luckily we were able to win some clients and build the business from there. But it was really this kind of desire to create a business that I wanted to sort of go into organizations and help them to make sense of all this craziness which is using data somehow because most people found that really challenging to know what to do and just help sort of hold their hand through that journey. So yeah, that's the kind of business I wanted to create. It's very nice and and congratulations on on succeeding in that and that's no small feat. So yeah, thank you. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it. And so so tell me then, you know, you've used data a lot through your journey, you've been involved in data. So you know, what is your definition and how do you have data? And how do you work with it today? I got gosh, my definition of data, I think is is an interesting one. I think the definition of what's important is the definition of how data is used and how you and how you get value from it. So I think the definition of data is rightly slightly different for everybody. But I kind of like I use that word to mean is in its broadest sense, you know, an organization uses data is the same as saying insight. It's the same as saying analytics. It's kind of like the the summary word to mean understanding what's happening and making best use of it and importantly, trying to drive value out of it. So we so I use it in a few ways. One is it's the tool for the work that we do with customers. It's the tool that we help customers use in order to help drive better decisions and improve their business. And internally, even as a small scaling business, we use it day in, day out to help drive our understanding of the market, understanding of who is likely to, you know, buy from us to understand the interactions that different people have with our business to look at what's working, what's not to look at our margins to look at our opportunities. So we use it all the time in all parts of the business to help us make our decisions about how we grow the business, what's going well, it's not going well. And so yeah, we use it sort of two sides one to help run the business and one to help our customers develop their businesses. And actually, we've got a set of values that we that we sort of have within the business. And one of them is is be data. And that's all about kind of, you know, practicing what we preach, I guess, you know, we talk a lot about how this is important to the organization. So we want to and feel necessary and right to do that for our own business as well. Very nice. So do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years? And why? So I think it's a data management, I think generally is quite an important topic. It's, I think it's sort of so for me, it's the overarching theme that where sort of data governance sits, but the management of data is all about sort of building that trust in the data that you have and make sure it's good, it's well looked after, it's clean, it's secure and all those good things. And I think there's always a bit of confusion actually about data management, which which is in the sort of where it manifests itself is that people try and do data management for their organization without really aligning it to sort of trying to create a specific set of outcomes other than foundationally making data good in the business, which is the right thing to do. And there's two sides to data management. One is the pure kind of operational need to have good quality data within systems and processes that help you run the business and not screw up, you know, customer orders or paying your employees at the right amount of money and these sorts of things that are like day to day operational things that your technology and your systems allow you to do, but bad data gets it wrong all the time or can get it wrong. And then there's the how do you extract and exploit and use that data to drive analytical and insight sort of use cases. So it's kind of got two arms and it's all connected. So the reason I give that context is because that question about is there going to be more or less of this needy going forward in some ways it's going to need to be more because more digital, more systems, more interactions, more touch points that are online, more of a breadcrumb and a trail means more of a necessity to get data management right. And also when we think about kind of AI and sort of building models and algorithms that are driving decisions, if those decisions are based on data and information isn't good quality and it isn't well managed, then the decisions that those engines, those algorithms make is going to be is going to be poor. It's going to be and actually there's a really great example. So ASICs have the sports brand have launched a campaign to drive up better quality of data in the images of people who are fit and healthy. Because if you asked an image create an AI image created, create a visual of a person who's fit and healthy, there'll be a chiseled, you know, old fashioned perfect body, washboard, stomach, huge muscles, chiseled jaw. And the reality is that a very small portion of people are actually like that. But what the what the algorithms have learned on are those images. So ASICs are trying to build this stockpile of, you know, real people so that when you when algorithms make a decision about what a fit person looks like, it's got it's based on good data. So that's the importance of data management is getting that kind of stuff right. So so I think that will increase the need for data management. However, the kind of like the reverse of that is technology will also get better at doing some of that data management for us. So therefore, that will kind of like overtight and you'll automate, you'll iterate, you'll get better at data management using technology. So I think net net will increase because of the importance of data, but there'll be some ups and some downs along the way. Love that you bring up that ASICs campaign in, you know, it's such a good example of how data can be used to change the world. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and so exciting. It's an exciting space to be in, I think, because of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's, you know, that's just one tiny example. And you know, you could argue that, you know, that's a marketing campaign. It's all about driving attention to them so they can sell more trainers, but they're trying to do some good and they're trying to improve the situation. We can just complain about it or we can do something about it. And that's the same across, you know, within a business, you know, poor data management, poor data quality means poor decisions means, as I said before, you know, customer orders being delivered to the wrong address or whatever happens in the real world. And those are real problems. They cost money, they cost time, they cost brand damage, all these things. And so good data management is needed to run the business, let alone build models and and do, you know, fancy kind of dashboards and that sort of thing. So yeah, super important. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Data Diversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DVTOX for 20% off your purchase. So tell me, what advice would you give to people looking to get into a career in data management, especially since you have such expertise on leadership, you know, and even in leadership? The I think the craft of data management is pretty varied actually. And so so I suppose it sort of depends on the kind of the kind of area within data management, you know, you've got data quality, we've got metadata management, we've got access management, we've got data retention, we've got, you know, you've got all these topics that sit under that discipline of data management. So I think depending on which of those things are more attractive, I think it changes what you might sort of do, what you might go into, what you might look at. And actually, I think a real, I think, you know, what can people think about? I think a real care for why we're doing these things, I think is fundamental, like, what's the point of of doing better data management? I've given some examples and they're the real world examples that manifest themselves in data management problems. So I think a real care for the outcome and the care for solving real world business problems or real, real, real societal problems is like, I think should be a good basis. But again, it depends where you're coming from. So there's like a real leadership angle. There's a technology and sort of architecture angle. There's a system development and data product implementation angle and data management sort of is a topic that needs all of that stuff. So I think it's real sort of like open, open game for how, for where people can go within data management. And of course, data management itself is only one category within doing data, doing their data well and what we call data strategy, which is even broader. And so I think there's a real, there's a real opportunity to kind of, this isn't just about sort of maths and statistics and data science. This is about leadership. It's about management. It's about product development. It's about system development. It's about processes. It's about culture within a business. It's about how you organise yourselves. It's about collaboration. It's all these kind of great things that you need to be good at. And depending on what you're good at and what your passion is, it's all these routes in all these routes in and out of data management as a theme. So yeah, I don't think there's a kind of depending what stage you're at, you might sort of be opening your opportunity or trying to laser focus in. And I think if you're opening your opportunity, then the broadest experience possible across data within an organisation is really valuable. And if you're trying to hone in, it depends on what floats your boat and what passion you have and what your skills are. So yeah, I can see all sorts of varied careers within within that space. It's very, very, very true, you know, and you know, so and just I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like, you know, explore, you're encouraging people to explore. Because there are so many aspects of data management, because you're right, it's not just the data scientists, you know, there's so many different roles and ways to get involved in different and, you know, like you say, depending on your passion. So if you follow your passion, right, and just be open to to any part of it. Yeah, I think so. It's and that shouldn't almost shouldn't be daunting for people. I think that's just a really great opportunity to explore, to try different things, to get involved with with solving business problems, to get involved with collaborating across different teams. I think any any degree, you know, even any education that you've had can can can be a route into this. Because there's, you know, there's a lot to talk about, as I said about sort of statistics and maths and the sort of science behind this. But actually, most of the thing that gets this to work properly is the art behind this and the art is the things like, you know, change and management and influence and creativity and and you know, presenting and what the industry often calls soft skills, which I don't really like that phrase, but it's the kind of like, it's the bit that really makes this real and and this is really about people. So anything that makes you good at being with people and managing people and interacting and collaborating, I think is great foundation for this sort of stuff as well. No, so if it's, you know, so get uncomfortable, right? If you're if it's hard, you know, it's a skill that can be practiced, right? Those the soft skills, as you as you say, I know there's no better word for it. Yeah, yeah, well, no, I haven't found I haven't found one yet, but I suppose the point the point is if if you're not if you're someone that doesn't want to stay in or go into the the kind of like the maths, the science, the hard skills angle, then there's still loads of opportunity and still loads of potential that can help, you know, have a really fulfilling career in data and data management. Very nice. Is there a skill that you that surprised you that you needed? Um, well, I've I've not come I've not come from a sort of technical route, actually, technical or sort of maths route. So I've been surprised that what I've been able to do without a certain set of skills. I don't know if that's not quite answering what you ask, but I haven't and it's a good lesson I've found for people is that I haven't had to be good at technology. I've never done data, you know, never done engineering or coding or data modeling or any of these things. I understand them, understand what they're for, understand how to apply them. I've learned what good looks like and all these things, but I haven't come from a route of technology. So it's a building technology. So it's it's always been a kind of yeah, so shock and a surprise that I've been I've been a sort of craft, a career in sort of leadership in this space without that. But but actually now I'm where I you know in the in the role I'm in now I kind of see that more and more that's necessary as well as necessary to have people that haven't got those skills in in positions of leadership in certainly in businesses and things roles like chief data officer because it makes you more of a rounded business and commercial and change leader and not sort of buried in technology and systems and coding which which often can be the case. I'm not sure I've been surprised anything I have needed though. I think there's some really important things I think I sort of mentioned about being really good at kind of understanding people and even if you're an introvert by nature, having the appetite to to collaborate and learn from other people but contribute really strongly and that can be uncomfortable some people that aren't sort of extrovert necessarily but I think the ability to communicate and collaborate well has been one of those really like fundamental building blocks throughout my career certainly and what I see where I see people be most successful now. And it sounds like you know you're a founder your CEO and you haven't gone you know hey I reached my my my goal you know I'm successful. It sounds like you're still learning you're still exploring you're still yeah. Yeah, I've not I've not reached anything. I'm I'm start of my journey with this and and yeah we've had some success but there's no there's sort of it's a journey rather than like a specific endpoint but yeah I never stopped learning and I think whatever role I've been in there's always been so much scope sideways to learn and sort of upwards to learn actually and retrofit what you thought you understood previously as well and unpick what you thought you understood previously. So I yeah I've never found that I've sort of reached any kind of potential within any specific role but I certainly have got bored in roles before and and sort of felt that I'm I want a new challenge but that doesn't necessarily mean I've reached you know everything there is to know so and I just get bored very easily and I love change so I kind of have thrived on on trying new things and and going down some different avenues and so yeah there's never there's no end there's no end to the learning and I think that's a good thing it's because yeah it keeps it exciting. I agree yeah that's very nice so Jason I would be remiss if I did not ask how people can find out more about Cinejure and how to contact you for your services. Oh sure yeah well you can find me at probably best is on LinkedIn Jason Foster on LinkedIn the company's Cinejure our website is Cinejure.com I also host a podcast actually hub and spoken it's called so if you search for hub and spoken on any of the platform any of the podcast platforms you'll find me on the other side of the mic and but yeah LinkedIn is the best place to find me and us or our websites Cinejure.com Well very nice well we will be sure to get all those links posted on the podcast page when so everyone can find you and reach out. Well Jason this has been so great I really appreciate your time today. No problem it's been great for me too I love sort of sitting back and reflecting so thank you for prompting those questions and forcing me to think about some of that which I don't usually so appreciate that. Well thanks again for being here and thanks to all of our listeners out there and if you want to keep up to date on the latest podcast and the latest in data management education you may go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe until next time stay curious people Thank you for listening to Dataversity Talks a podcast brought to you by Dataversity subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational webinars at dataversity.net forward slash subscribe