 Dying to talk to you about your police work, but can we just talk about your time at Limson? Yeah. When did that take place? So I was, just before I went over, I was a drill instructor. So I had been a drill instructor in the U.S. and this is mid-90s. And at the time it was a two-year tour. So I was just finishing up my second year as a drill instructor in the U.S. And I was getting ready to go to my next unit and you kind of have a little say, and the longer you're in, the more say you have about where you want to go next. And I intended to go back to an operational unit, go back. I was actually going to go back to a reconnaissance unit. I had orders, which meant, you know, I'm ready to, I'm ready to move on ahead. A move date and everything. And I didn't even realize we had, that we had five U.S. Marines who are on exchange with the Royal Marines. I didn't even know it existed. I'd never heard of it. And maybe two months before I was due to rotate to my next duty station, a guy just mentioned it one day. And he said that he had brought it up that there was someone at Limson, who, which we call it the drill instructor exchange, but really, you know, as well as I do, that the true sergeant is not a drill instructor by any means, you know, you have one DL over there, whereas we have all our drill instructors are, you know, the guys with the big funny hats and they're all screaming. And it's such a different system for you, for you guys. But so I, I inquired to my, what we call a monitor, which is a person that monitors your career, kind of makes sure people get to the right place and all billets are filled. I asked him, he said, yeah, I'm actually getting ready to pick someone for that. I have, you know, about 10 people who have applied. Are you interested? And I said, yeah, very. And so I put in a package for it. And like just before I would have deployed, I got word that that I had been selected to go. And so he changed my orders. And I think it was June of 97. I flew over, reported into Limson. And they don't, they don't make you go to the All Arms course. But of course, for me, there was no option. I was like, I got to, I got to earn me, Barry, you know, and just so I spent the first month or two because they, I think they were just finishing up an All Arms course and they just, really, they set me up for success. Most day, I spent, I think I spent three days a week on bottom field. And I would just work out with the recruits. So I would do bottom field three times a week. And I had pretty much by the time I got on the All Arms, I had done everything. I had, I had done the assault course. I didn't do the full Tarzan assault as a runner, you know, as you do in the course. But I had, I had gone through all of it. I had done pretty much everything you could do, but in little pieces. So I felt really good about going on course. Of course, once it, once that 12 weeks, I believe at the time the All Arms was 12 weeks, you know, once that hit and you went through it, it was just, it was unbelievable. I mean, it was so just ball busting. It was 12 weeks nonstop. I lost two stone. Yeah, I came out the other side and I was, I had lost so much weight because it was just day after day, relentless doing the commando tests and bottom field pass out. And and then the exercise is in between, you know, up in up in Woodbury Common or out in Dartmoor and so they really set me up for success. So and then I got on course, which so I passed out on December. So I guess I would have started in late October, maybe somewhere in October, I started the course and and I remember so when I had done, when I was doing bottom field, one of the PTIs that was working with me, he, he was showing me everything. And he told me, don't the worst thing that can happen to you is that you fail the initial rope climb because you'll get another shot at it after you do the rest of the course, but you'll never make it because there's no way yet because you're going to be hanging out so bad. Now, you know, you've done the whole course. You've done the full regain. You've done everything else and now you're going to try to climb the rope again and he goes, you'll never make it. So don't let it happen to you. So on the morning, it was it was drizzly, rainy, typical limestone day. And I remember I got to the rope. I was feeling good. I felt so well rehearsed and everything was good. I was probably the best shape my life. I think I was 31 when I went through and I start climbing the 30 foot rope and I just start to slip and I'm climbing and slipping and my head is I just start to just start to psych myself out and I'm looking up and I'm not going to make it. And finally I realize I'm not getting to the top of the rope and that PTI is words just were just banging in my head. You'll never make the second rope climb. It's not going to happen. So just pack it in. You know, I mean, that's how I felt. And of course I didn't and I did the rest of the course. Did the regain and so now I've got to climb this rope again. And I remember just it had dried up a little bit. The rain had stopped and there was just no way I wasn't going to make the top of that rope. And so that got the second attempt and I just got up to the top and I got up there. I know you had to slap the top and I don't remember what you had to say, but you had to yell out something that you had made it. And I just I just stood there for a minute. I looked out over the over the river X over the flats and just yeah, I just couldn't believe that I'd made that. But that was, you know, one small piece of that whole course. And it just got worse from there. I mean, you know, it never stopped. So how how do I I'm going to do a comparison thing thing here, Robert, I might actually just put this out as a little clip because it's quite fascinating. Was it so was it a massive eye opener to see what the British Marines. How they train because, of course, we're commandos, which just, you know, it's like a different role from the infantry roles. It's a it's like another thing again. Was that kind of a shock to you? Was that a lot different to the USMC training that you've done? Yeah, especially so, you know, our recruit training, our boot camp is. What is it now? I gosh, I don't even know what it is now. I've been retired so long. I don't keep up on much of it. But so I think it's. Thirteen weeks. Maybe our our boot camp, our recruit training, which is about the same as the command, of course, you know, the all arms command, of course. But it's so different. It's apples and oranges. I watched a video the other day, actually, of a US Marine who is watching a Royal Marines video on recruit training. And I just kept I wanted to yell at the screen because you can't compare the two. They're so different. Ours is pretty short. It's the I think it's the longest recruit training in the US military, but it's still pretty short and it's designed. It's it's, you know, it's the brainwashing, right? It's it's that indoctrination of you take this slimy civilian and you just pound USMC into him, you know, just 24 hours a day. Everything. And you teach him history, culture, customs and courtesies, how to march, how to walk, how to put their socks on, how to eat. And it's that's what it is. I mean, it is that for 12 weeks, not stop. You don't get a day off. You get Sundays in the afternoon. You get a couple hours to sit in the barracks, in the squad bay and write letters and, you know, lie to your family how great it is. And it's but there's no time off. You never leave. You never leave base. You don't have any time where you just walk around on your own, just strolling about the camp and get to to relax. There's none of it nonstop. And, you know, when I went over there, I didn't have any. Preconceived notions of what the training was going to be like, but I did know it was much longer. And that it was, you know, it's I look at it in three phases, right? It's like the initial phase is where you're taking a civilian. You're kind of teaching them about the core, you know, your core and kind of giving them that transition into kind of a basic marine, basic soldier, you know, and then you have the second phase where you teach them how to be an infantryman, a rifleman, you know, how to fight in the field. And then the commando phase where you, you know, you're turned them into a commando and ours really isn't like that. After you leave recruit training, all of our recruits from every different job skill, you know, every, we call them MOS and military occupational specialty. They're all in the same place. So you've got you got butchers and bakers next to next to infantry guys. And so they all do the exact same thing. After that, they go on to their further school where they learn how to repair helicopters or, you know, fire, javelin missiles or whatever it is. And and and so the the schooling later is more of of making you that job skill. And I know I know there are other, you know, commandos. What what other skills do they have? I mean, it's not everyone's in a commando unit, right? Yeah, when you come out of Royal Marine's training, pretty much everybody goes to a commando unit because you're kind of expected to have experience as a commando, you know, for a year, maybe do some special training like up in the Arctic, where we do warfare training up in the north and Norway. Or you might have a deployment obviously back in my day. It was the Northern Ireland conflict. More more recently, it's obviously been the Middle East. And then you can look to specialise as a driver. A shelf, a clerk. When you're in your commander unit, you might choose to go in the mortar. You know, you might get a bit of experience as a rifleman and then be. Opt to go to the Morse of Platoon, you know, or heavy weapons, this this kind of thing, right? But after you've done your sort of year and a half, you can then you might want to be a drill instructor, right? Normally, no one wants to do that job. It's not really it it. The thought of being at Limson and that's your job on that parade square every single day is not what everyone. Well, I'm not saying it's a bad job or anything. I'm just saying it's back in my day. They used to ping you if we call it pinging. Pinging means you get told you're going to do it. At which point a lot of people or many people in my day would put their chip in they they would just leave. They'd say, sorry, I didn't join up to do that. Yeah, it was sometimes a bit of negotiation there. Signaler was another one, you know, very professional, respectable command of job. But if you don't want to be a signal, you don't want to be a signaler. And there was there was a derp, if that's the right word or, you know, and a lack so people would get ping ping for that. And then, of course, you've got the Holy Grail, which is the during the special boat service. Yeah, so the Navy's version of special forces. Um, so, yeah, did you find, Robert, like, for example, the endurance course, I mean, that is. It's just hard, isn't it? It I reckon no disrespect to my brothers across the water there, but I reckon the average American Marine would probably not get too far on it before going this is. Yeah. And at the time, I believe they put a little more safety features underneath, right? At this point, I believe they have, I think I've seen videos where they, but at the time, if you fell off any of those obstacles, there was nothing to catch you. There was, I don't think any of them had netting or anything to help. If you fell, we actually, when I was there, there was one lad. He was, do you remember the double ropes where you come down the double ropes? Yeah. And I think after that you get on the beam and then you run into the jump and punch through the, through the netting. Well, he was coming down those double ropes and fell. And both of his, his bones came through his wrist. So he fell and landed somehow like this. And, and, and he was just screaming, but I think that's a good 10, 15 foot fall off the double ropes and just had open fractures on both of his wrists. Yeah, that's that the Tarzan Assault course or the Tarzan course, which joins Oh, you were talking, you were talking the endurance course. I'm talking up on Woodbury Common. Yes, yes. Yeah, that was quite a course. I mean, and I remember the first time we did it, we had just finished a week long exercise where we were digging in up on Woodbury Common. We had dug in. And it rained all week. And so they took us through it twice. The first time just to show us the obstacles kind of walk us through it just, just the part on the common. And then after we had gone through it, they showed us how to do each obstacle. Then we did it again at full speed. And then ran back all the way back to limestone. And it was just, it was, I actually passed out on that. I had hypoglycemia and passed out on the way back. It was, it was just unbelievable. I should explain for our, for our American brothers and sisters listening. So the endurance course. You, you jog four miles up to the start. So you do that in your three-man sec. You're in a three-man section. You jog four miles to the start. Then under the timer, your, your threesome is off. You run a four month, you then run a four mile course cross country. And it's all of a, it's all either up or down. There's no like in between. What is in between of these tunnels? Some of them are up to a hundred meters long. And in my day, they were made of corrugated iron, which had all collapsed down in. So you've got mud pouring through. You've got a river running down the tunnel. So it's like a stream and you've got to get in there and crawl that hundred meters. And at times you've got that much air to, to above the water to breathe. And of course you've got to try and keep your rifle. Right. You know, you're doing this in all your fighting order. Right. So not your Bergen obviously because it's too small to get through these holes. When you've done that four mile course, you then hit the, what we call the tarmac, the metal road, which means tarmac. And you've got to run another four miles back to the camp. So at this stage, you're up to 12 miles. I think the course might be a bit shorter than four miles. It might be about two and a half or something. But anyway, you're running like 10 miles soaking wet. So all of your kit and clothing is now weighing double. If, if, if not treble, I mean, it feels like you've got to refrigerate on your back. It's just insane. And you've got to run four miles down that metal road back to the camps rifle range. Then you've got to quickly pull your, the barrel of your weapon through to clean it a little light oil, but you, you know, all this is, it's, it's done in super fast time. And then you've got to get 10 shots on the target, which so long as your weapons clean is, is the easiest bit. We did it in February. So once we hit that first pool that you wade through this river up to your neck, you're going to have your rifle above your head, obviously to keep it dry. And you pull yourself along on this rope. And it's about, you know, 15 meters to get to the other side. And it's in February in the UK. So you're talking it's about minus six air temperature. This is Celsius now. So it's cold. It's winter. The ice on the pool is three inches thick. So the first people across have got to break, break through the ice. I'm just trying to sell it here because like yourself, Robert, I've seen comparison videos online and it's it's like, this guy isn't really getting this, is he? I don't think he understands that this is like really fucking hard. The hardest thing you'll ever do in your life. And most people couldn't, it's just the fact most people couldn't do it. No, that's true. I mean, we, we, I remember the troops that I, that I was troops sergeant for, you know, you just, you just watch guys drop. I mean, every day we used to have in the initial, when they started, they would take a true picture of all the recruits that were starting together. And what we would do is as recruits, and I'm sure this has probably been around for years, but we would, we would color out the face of that recruit. And so you start with, let's say you start with 50, 50 nods, you know, at the, at the end of the troop, you may have, you know, you may have 10, 10 faces that have not been blacked out that haven't been backtrooped or just, you know, just couldn't make it and moved on, try something else, got injured, went to Hunter troop. And you just watch the troop dwindle. And then you get new, you constantly getting new recruits as well that had been backtrooped and they pick up with your troop. I don't, I don't know how many, I don't know what the ratio is of how many recruits make it on one tribe, but it's not very high. I mean, it really is tough training. I would say not to, not to slag off U S Marines, because obviously I've been through both, but yeah, it's, it's such hard training. And I mean, and these are young kids and, and physically just unbelievable, you know, which I think is why the other thing I really liked over there that you guys do is you start to give the recruits responsibility right from the get go. You would, you know, I mean, not necessarily an induction, but after that, once that, once they joined the troop and training proper, you have, you have a recruit who's in charge of getting the other recruits outside in the morning. You know, you're not like in the U S Marine Corps, we are yelling at them. We literally get them dressed by the numbers. You wake them up, you stand them online, they stand in an open squad bay facing each other. And then you send them all, you send half to the bathroom on the other half, you're getting addressed. And then they switch these, these, this lot goes to the bathroom and then these guys are getting dressed, but you're telling them, like, put a sock on now, right sock trousers on now pants on, you know, and you're just doing that step by step. And really they don't have any responsibility as recruits until much later in the training in that 13 weeks. And so I don't, I think I used to say after I'd done both, I used to say that we turn out a USMC turns out a great recruit, because that's what they are. They're still kind of a recruit until they go to their next, their next phase. And I think by the end of the commando course, you've experienced leadership. You've been responsible and had to pay for somebody else's mistakes because you didn't get them ready. You know, you would, you would, but you would go out in the morning and a recruit would be there. He had got everyone ready. And we did that a little bit in the USMC, but not as much not to that extent where guys are leading patrols, you know, actually writing an op order, writing patrol order and leading up patrol and taking that leadership responsibility. So I think at the end of the commando course, a lot of a lot of those guys are they're ready to go out into the commando forces and actually operate and actually, you know, be a be a leader if they have to. Robert, I've got to ask you because some. It's not often you get the chance to ask things like this, but full mess with jacket. Yeah, I watched the making of it again last night. It's just one of those things you can watch and watch and watch. Lee. Did I say his name, right? Yeah, early army. Yeah. Did a fantastic job came on the film as an advisor and then ended up going, no, look, just give me the part. I can, I can better than this guy. Right. How for those of us obviously that haven't been in the USMC, how, how realistic is, is that for, for what it's actually like. It's a Hollywoodized version, but it is, it's, it's pretty accurate. I mean, it is. That's how a drill instructor is. There is a stereotypical drill instructor and. I won't give away too many secrets, but there's actually roles that drill instructors play. Usually you have a three three man drill instructor team. And they each kind of have a role. There's kind of the senior guy who we call him the Papa bear. He's the one who makes the recruits feel good. And he can speak to them nicely and, and kind of get them to respond. You know, he's kind of the father figure. And then you've got the one who's a complete a hole that does nothing but yell. He's never, never kind. And it just, his job is just to discipline just constantly. Anybody looks around, he's in their face yelling at him, telling them to keep their eyes to the front and, and making them do pushups and setups and, and whatever else and, and incentive exercises. And then there's the, the one who's kind of the drill guy. And he's the one that focuses on drill on getting them to, cause I think the USMC, I think we have, we're just some of the best drill people out there. I mean, we really take drill seriously and focus on it and recruit training as a way to build teamwork and discipline and get guys to work it together as a unit. You know, we do that through just drill for hours on end. But, but yeah, that's, that's how it is. I mean, you are, you are by the end of your first week as a drill instructor, you can't speak anymore. You've yelled so much and you're up with them from, from basically from dust. You're actually awake before the recruits, cause you wake them up and you go to bed after them. And so it's just nonstop for, for the first, I would say first three or four weeks where you are just breaking them down, you know, as, as recruits and you're just instilling that discipline. And, and as time goes on, you know, you're not yelling as, hopefully you're not yelling as much at the end, because hopefully by then you've, you've brought them and you see the, the transition as they, as they make their way out and go out to the Fleet Marine Force and join units. But, but yeah, it's, it's pretty accurate. Honestly. And these guys, they're rig, so they're clothing, it is immaculate, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You, you have several uniforms that you bring to work. And if you get anything, if you get too wrinkly or if, if you get anything on it, it gets a little bit soiled, you're switching it out, putting on another one. And we would do things like we would put, we would spray the inside so you wouldn't sweat through. And just, just different tricks. And then you would do that to always have that appearance. And so is it true. That if you don't like your drill instructor, you, you can just shoot them. Yeah, you shoot them and then you, and then usually you off yourself on the toilet. That, that was a bit of an unexpected turn in that. Well, I guess you could see it was something not good was going to come out of that relationship. Right. It, it should be pointed out that people do die in training though, don't they? I mean, I don't know how it was for you guys, but we had guys commit suicide. We had one chap shot himself in the head. We had another recruit pointed his weapon at someone. He was, he was piss assing around and then he shot, shot the guy dead guys drowning. And this is just the in training bet is when guys go on leave and they get up to the shenanigans on leave, like car crashes and that sort of thing. You, you know, you lose people there as well. Is that your experience? Yeah, we have the same thing. You know, I know once you get in, in the USMC, I think it is easier to kind of get out of the Royal Marines. If you decide it's, it's not for you, but the USMC, you're there. I mean, you are stuck there unless you do something really, really stupid. But I remember there was kids who would try to, they would try to go, you know, go UA on authorized absence. They would disappear in the night, try to get off base, which it's, it's not impossible. It's tough, but it's not impossible. I remember when I was in, when I joined in 1984, this kid had, and I was at Paris Island, which is, you know, it's, it's like an island, I mean, it's proper island. So it's surrounded by water, swampy water. And this kid had taken all the bleach bottles and emptied them so he could make a raft and he was going to float off of Paris Island to escape the madness. They caught him after, I think he'd wasted a lot of bleach and that was about as far as he got. But yeah, I mean, it's just not for everybody, is it? I mean, some people just get there and the shock. I remember when I was in again, we had this one kid and he lost so much weight. He was overweight, which is rare that you even get into the USMC overweight, but he was a little overweight. And we were our first day. We went to the chow hall to, to have our breakfast, I think it was, or maybe lunch. And he passed out. And, you know, the human, the human being response to someone passing out is to go see if they need help. Well, the drill instructor response is to scream at them and they just yell at them for passing out. And, you know, how could they possibly be such a weak, pathetic thing, you know, and pass out. And so the drill instructors just, just attack this kid who's laying there. It's just fallen face first on the ground. And I remember thinking, what the hell have I got myself into? You know, these people are subhumans. And he made it though. He lost a ton of weight. And, and, you know, I think that when you make it through training, whether it's a USMC or the Royal Marines, you know, that, that feeling of pride, it sticks with you forever. Right. It's just something that, you know, you've accomplished that goal. And it's just, it's with you forever. I think that's why, you know, in the US, we say once a Marine, always a Marine, you know, it's, it's, we never say X Marine. And now they don't even say former Marine. They just say he's a Marine, you know, for the rest of your life. Yes, it's the same here. But it kind of is, it's, it, you know, something goes in you, you become a part of something. And, and that's something that goes in and you become a part of isn't, isn't nothing to do with the technical numbers that are written down in Whitehall or the M. M. D., right? It's