 It's just like the open-endedness, it's like when you lie down in a field and I clear a night and you look up and it's just vast. That you know that sometimes makes my heart go a bit funny because it's like where does the end where's the end of it? I don't know. It's my stuff I know that but there's certain things that just give me a bit of a flip. I like the journey and I like the exploration and when you were talking about it then it makes perfect sense. Do you know what I mean? The purpose and the the meaning and you know where we fit into everything? Yeah because most people come to therapy I think. A to understand themselves. Yeah. Which leads to meaning of life in some way. So maybe therapy is all about at one level but there's no real answers. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 89 of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with the wonderful Mr Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones and in this episode we're going to be talking about different methods and approaches in therapy. Oh my gosh. Good gosh this podcast will go on forever but we I know it's only gonna last about half an hour but number 90s coming up soon then. It is it is just a couple more to go yeah. A long time ago very long time ago I started to be a therapist in 1985 in 1986 or 1997 I was asked by I think it was the ITV to be on a television program. Now where? Yeah and it was I can't remember what the program was but it had three therapists and I think three counsellors and we were talking about various things but one of the people who was chosen to well to start you know the three therapists was me and another person called Windy Dryden and now we are about 40 years later whatever I'm where I am but Windy Dryden went on to write lots and lots of psychophobic books and he's passionate back then with CBT so he's written a lot on CBT. He's quite well known he comes from London and he writes avidly one of the books which is well known was on counselling and psychotherapy and individual work and in that book he talks about the different therapy approaches and he quotes if this is correct I'll have to go back to his book that there's 563 different types of therapies and counselling in the United Kingdom. What been that? The transaction analysis which I was trained in, integrative psychotherapy which is what I was trained in, I did object relations training as well, I did some hypnotic induction. It's only four methodologies isn't it? There's actually a lot lot lot more methods. It's no wonder clients are confused a lot of the time isn't it? Yeah because all they want to do is deal with their problems. Feel better? Yeah. There's not many, well few very few clients are coming and say look I want this type of method of therapy. Yeah. That doesn't really happen. No. They want to be cured or they want to be happier or they want to be less depressed or they want to be more relaxed. They don't care in a way you know how they get there. Yeah exactly but it's interesting it's an interesting topic because you know I've had clients that have come to me that have tried other other methods and it's not been right for them. Oh that's interesting isn't it? And it depends what I was what went through my head was depends on what the therapist was and it really depends on the type of relationship they have with the psychotherapist. That's one of the things that I usually say because I think that is the most important thing rather than you know the method that's used. Yeah I mean the relationship yeah. A big research that came out and I can't remember the book again it was in 1993 by North Cross I think it was huge research quota and the clear evidence was that the relationship is far more important than the method. Yeah. So if you I just did a workshop not long ago on how to work with the unconscious and the younger self and it was it was two therapists and I was talking about the techniques and methods and the types of therapy that work with the unconscious and the younger self. I'll just go through a few not 563. Thank goodness for that. That's I will and then I well before I do that another way of looking at all these therapies is to split them up into five sections. Yeah. One would be therapies that deal with behavioral change. Another section would be therapies that deal with cognition and thinking change. Another section would be therapies that deal with emotional change. Another would be a section that deals with physical change. Another section would be those that work with spiritual changes and also a sixth section might be those that deal with bodily change. And I'm sure there's other sections as well. Yeah. But each of those sections we could probably find at least 20 or 30 therapies and I've another section which is as big when I say spiritual we could say transpersonal and that covers many, many different types of therapy. And then there's all the therapies that deal with sexualities and gender and all sorts of things. So as I talk, I can start realizing at least 500 mind, you know, my hit the button. But just in terms of therapies that deal with the younger self or would be evocative helping people access their unconscious because often, you know, looking at how the past effects of present is really crucial. You've got things like music therapy. Yeah. Drama therapy. Well, transaction analysis is crossing that. Art therapy. They're three really one sand play. There's another one. So we can look at all those creative ways hypnotic induction would be another one. What a method, I was going to say regression, but that's more method than a type of therapy. Gestalt psychotherapies to do. So we could actually go through many, many therapies in the humanistic section of the UK CP, which I'm part of, which would deal with how to work, you know, how to work with the younger self. Yeah. So there's lots of therapies and of course, there's lots of methods that go with those therapies. Let's just look at integrative psychotherapy, for example. So I was trained in integrative psychotherapy, which follows the work of Richard Erskine. But who came from America as an international organization. But his version of integrative psychotherapy is very different from many other people's versions of integrative psychotherapy. And according to where you trained and what school you come from, they may have their own versions of what integrative psychotherapy might mean. So it's quite a quite a minefield, one of the thinker therapies, you know. It's, yeah, it's mind blowing. And as you were talking, this isn't something that I've just thought about now, I often sit and muse and think about things like this. There was a time where none of this even existed until somebody thought it up. Wow, that's an interesting way to put it in a plan and put something together to bring it into the world, if that makes sense. Well, yes. So if we look at psychoanalysis, the birth of psychoanalysis would usually talk about Freud. And that would get into the middle 1880, 1870, 1860, I forget when Freud was born. But if we go beneath that, which is what you're, I think you're hinting at, there's a whole, there was the whole growth of what we call religious healing, which takes us 17th, 16th century. And I'm sure we could trace right, right way back. And I think it's the human condition to search for purpose, identity, who we are, how to understand ourselves, that level of curiosity. Yeah, that makes sense. Because we are always searching for something, whatever that something is. Yeah. Now you're into the whole over another type of therapy, which I really like. And I think if I hadn't been a transaction analyst, I would have been attracted to this type of therapy. And that's existential psychotherapy, which deals with existential issues, like death, purpose of life, value of meaning, all the things I've just talked about, you know, which are to do with our very existence. Yeah. And I mean, you know, those, though, you know, that school really appeals to me. Because I think that those existential issues have been throughout whole, you know, mankind if you like. Yeah. See, there's a part of me that gets scared with things like that, because it's like, I like cancers. I like to know where things end. And with existential things, it's like, there's a lot of philosophizing, and I don't just theories and all those sorts of things. And it's like, you don't, what's the right answer? And I'm not sure we get to that. Let's put another frame on it and Jackie, which might look at this in a different way. I would say two of the most common problems to psychotherapists deal with, and I bet my bottom dollar, your practice, you're gonna, you know, it's the same thing is when people come in, you know, one of you sort of really go down the layers, it's about being out of control, because they want to control. And then they have had that very conversation with somebody today. And they go into anxiety, overthinking overwhelmed. But bringing control is very, very important. That's an existential issue, feeling vulnerable and out of control is another thing we've regularly talked about with our clients. That's an existential issue. Purpose and meaning of life often comes up all the time. So we might look at things in different ways. But if you're an existential psychotherapist, the last thing you're going to do is theorizing or philosophizing, it will be dealing with things like death instinct, dealing things with purpose and meaning in life. But not in a philosophical way that I think maybe you're addressing, but in a much more human way. I understand when you say that I'd be really scared of that. But you know, as a therapist, all these issues come up, maybe indifferently. Yeah. It's just like the open-endedness is like when you lie down in a field and like clear night and you look up. And it's just vast. That, you know, that sometimes makes my heart go a bit funny because it's like, where does it end? Where's the end of it? I don't know. It's my stuff. I know that. But there's certain things that just give me a bit of a flip. But yeah, I like the journey and I like the exploration. And when you were talking about it then, it makes perfect sense. Do you know what I mean? The purpose and the meaning and, you know, where we fit into everything. Yeah, because most people come to therapy, I think, A, to understand themselves. Yeah. Which leads to meaning of life in some ways. And maybe therapy is all about at one level, that there's no real answers. Yeah. And that letting go of the need for control is a big thing with an awful lot of my clients. And it's scary when you say to them, you know, we're actually not in control of anything. We can control our reaction and, you know, two things. But outside events are 100% out of our control. The majority of the time. Well, you know, I was watching another reality television program. I think I've talked about reality television programs and another podcast. But anyway, when these people, I don't know, six or seven, they were they were buried in in caskets in the ground. And it's part of a task. Anyway, you know, one of them, which I was very impressed with, who was afraid of all this lot, she started to regulate her breathing, because that's the only thing she had control of. Yeah. And so you are correct. What you're saying, it's not much you're having control of, but we do have control of our reactions, our breathing, slowing ourselves down. And people have panic attacks and pulpitations, you may teach them that. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite liberating, speaking as somebody who was a bit of a control freak to come to the realization that we can't control everything. And when when I came to that realization, it kind of took a lot of pressure off me, trying to control everything all the time. Well, we have the huge, well, just in the last five or six, seven years, maybe Jackie, I don't know if it's more than that. We've had the huge increase in the whole area of mindfulness, which is all about that. Yeah, concentrating on being instead of doing. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think mindfulness is a really great, but it's, you know, it's sold as a modern day phenomena, but it actually no. Yeah, I love mindfulness. So meditation and mindfulness, all these sorts of things, they're all about being moving away from doing. Yeah. There's so many therapies around mindfulness and meditation. You know, it's amazing. Yeah. The more the more you think it, you know, there's like, people have laughing therapy, where they just go in a room and laugh or, you know, sound baths where you listen to music, you know, like a gong or whatever and all sorts of stuff. Reiki and the list just goes on and on and on with different. It's what I suppose it's what fits for you. You know, it's something to go into a room and spend half an hour laughing isn't what they want. But for others, that will be right up their street. I think it depends on what we should have a podcast on this is what we mean by therapeutic. Very good question. I'm gonna write that one down. That's what really what you're really talking about. Yeah. What do we mean by therapeutic? And what do we mean by cure? Yes. And then we're that will determine the therapy that we choose. That is a good topic in the podcast. Yes, definitely. Because it's individual to each one of us, isn't it? I do really believe, though, that a majority of people come with therapy to understand themselves, whichever therapy they turn to. And a lot of the methods might change, but ostensibly, people want to understand themselves. And why they want to understand themselves is because they want to then have a more beneficial life or higher quality of life, whatever that is for them. But unless they understand themselves, it's much more harder. You can lots of behavioral tasks. So someone who comes in and has been smoking cigarettes for 30 years, you can give them behavioral tasks, tell them stop smoking. But unless they deal with what's underneath it all, I believe those I believe those changes they might make in accordance to behavioral tasks will fall away quite quickly. Yeah, as you get beneath the plaster, look at what is bubbling away there. So people need to understand themselves, I think. And I think there's a real existential thrust for people to do that. Yeah. Yeah, because once we understand, I'm going to cough. Once we understand ourselves, and we become more a word, then we're open to the possibility of change. But if we don't understand our own behavior or why we do what we do, then we can't possibly change it really. Not, not lasting change. That's it. Not lasting change. Yeah. I think by understanding ourselves, we have the elusive maybe possibility of choice. Yeah. And once we can then have that option to choose different ways, etc, etc, we might lead, which might lead to change. Yeah. Yeah. I wrote a book called Your Right to Choose in 1986. You've done a lot of things, Bob. Yeah. Which I produced about five or more, I don't know, it's private publishing with about 1000 copies. I've got a copy. I've got a couple left somewhere along the line because I kept them thinking, oh, they're just all gone. They did all go, but I kept a couple. And I, I've always believed that therapy is helping people get to a place of discovering they have their own right to choose. Yeah. That's quite powerful. Yeah. Seven direction they go. Yeah. Therapy should never be about a therapist telling or people what to do. I think therapy is about, by definition, helping the person discover their own opportunity to choose or their own opportunity for their own truth, rather than the truth of the therapist. Yeah. And therapy is wonderful for that because I can't think of any other time or place other than in the therapy room where you get to explore this stuff without fear of judgment or interruption or, you know, presumption or any of that sort of stuff. It's, it's a totally unique space. And so should be. Yeah, you know, in the outside world, we're always trying to fit into social norms or worried about, you know, people's opinion of us or what we should be doing or what we should be thinking and all those sorts of things. And all these different therapies have at the heart, I hope, helping the person or being a facilitator, the person at least understanding themselves and enhancing their lives and helping them understand that they've got options for change. And maybe we could talk about what Cure is, but leading at least that direction. Yeah. Because the thing is being a human being is that change isn't permanent. We're constantly evolving. You know, and sometimes people say, you know, I went to therapy 10 years ago and I thought I'd sorted it all out, but, you know, there's some other stuff come up and it's like, well, yeah, because things have changed in 10 years. You know, it's not do it once. And then that's it. I'm sort of for the rest of my life because events happen, things happen. So we're constantly evolving and changing, you know, whether we like it or not. You're absolutely right. I mean, a model I do like is transaction analysis. And I think that gives some good model in the words of parent, adult, child to explain things really easily. Yeah, hold off. There's got like, there's an accessible language there. Yeah. Helps, therapists and clients in terms of a common language in the things we've been talking about. Definitely. As many, I think many disciplines, I like integrative psychotherapy, like gestalt psychotherapy, a lot of, like a lot of the humanistic therapies, which help give the client the opportunity to get to their own truth. And our TA particularly helps the therapist and the client with an accessible, common language to understand quite often complex psychological processes. Yeah. I think that's why I like it. You know me and a diagram, Bob, I love a diagram. And, you know, what you were saying then, it's about the client getting to their own personal truth and, you know, that can be accessed through lots of different ways. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I started going to Pilates and that's a therapeutic process for me. And that's what I'm saying really, this podcast should in some ways be cool. Well, what we might mean by therapeutic. Yeah, definitely. A walking nature can be really therapeutic for me a lot of the time. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, one of the really big movements in the last three or four, five, six years, maybe more, has been therapist walking therapy. Yeah. Walk with their clients. Yeah, equine therapy, the use of horses. And we've got, we know already the use of animals. Yeah, our therapeutic processes and walking, particularly, very grounding, for example. And a lot of therapists, I know, may, you know, walk with their clients. There's a marvelous article by one of my colleagues who it was called walking, the walking cure. And she talked about how she used to walk with the clients and how much therapeutic that was for so many people. Yeah, I can completely understand why that would, you know, be a wonderful thing to do to walk and talk. Yeah. However, Freud, 50 years ago, whatever, would have turned in his grave, because he would argue that, of course, once you walk outside the consulting room, you go away from the security of the consulting room. The therapist comes along what he would call loads of multi-transferences and, you know, he would turn in his grave. But I think all these types of walking therapy, equine therapy, all the therapies with many animals, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera can be very powerful and very therapeutic, as long as the therapist is trained to be able to work with the client in that way. Yeah. Not to do it off bat. Yes, yeah. I think my biggest takeaway from this podcast, Bob, is what you said, you know, what do we mean by therapeutic and what do we mean by cure? Of course, do we mean. Yeah, you know, yeah, what is therapeutic? And that's really got my old grey matter going. Yeah, and for most of people. Because we don't need to be sat in a room isolated from the outside world and just, you know, two people or whatever it is in there for it to be therapeutic. Oh, not at all. I mean, what about the Wynn-Hoff method? Yes, not that I've tried it. Well, Cal made me try the breathing and I didn't like it at all, but yeah, no. Well, I forget how cold the water has to be, but it's often called the freezing therapy. So who knows, who knows? I know many, many, many different types of therapy and but I do believe, I do believe the therapist needs to be trained and not go off their own bat in all this. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because even, you know, the most simplest of things for some people can, you know, evoke such strong, powerful feelings, you know, that the therapist needs to be able to contain in a safe way, you know. So I kind of get what you were saying before about whoever turned in the grave because they're out of the safe confinements of the room because it is a safe environment. You know, as I'm saying that, I'm just, you know, standing on a beach by the sea really makes me emotional. It's very therapeutic. Nobody needs to say anything or do anything. Just being there makes me emotional. Yeah, and I know quite a lot of therapies where actually let's take another one, silence therapy. Oh, I'm not sure I'd like that. I don't like silence, but. I could go on and on. I mean, some of the most powerful therapies I have been have been to do with the body and all the somatic stuff. Yeah, you know, that's amazingly. Can be amazingly in terms of healing and cure. And of course, into the question again about what is cure and what's healing? I mean, my daughter's a devout Christian and she if she was talking here, I'm sure she'd talk about the power of spiritual healing. Yeah, I'm suspect she'll go back to Jesus and the Christian faith and religious healing and all those things we started talking about at the beginning of this podcast. So for many people, there's many different approaches. And I think that. What is the beauty of what is cure is, well, I don't think we'll get mainly get to an answer, but it will be an interesting podcast. It'd be wonderful exploration of, you know, what that is. Yeah. But I've really enjoyed this one, Bob. There's there's lots and lots of different therapy or methods of therapy out there. I love as well as all of that. You know, the the individuals that undertake each one of those are going to put their own slants on it also. So you can kind of tenfold it all easily. But I think I've said this four time long for a fifth time, I'm going to say it's really important that the therapist is trained. Whatever, whatever method, whatever model, behavioural, cognitive, physical, spiritual, emotionally, they need to be trained. Yeah. That, I believe, is important. Yeah, me too. And I've some work to take it as in supervision. Yes. Yeah. Some sense of accountability. Yeah. Yeah. For the for their own well-being as much as anything else. Oh, for theirs and for clients. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely safeguarding the client. But I think, you know, for others, therapists to be able to take that to somebody with knowledge as well, I think is is important. I'll tell you another therapy I mean, like, I know we're ending, but Ruby Wax, do you remember her? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. She became a psychotherapist. And she was really passionate about compassionate therapy. That sounds good. And I really like compassionate therapy. I'll just put this. I think it's fine, compassion for ourselves. However we do that is really important. Yeah, different ways. But I was thinking Pamela Anderson and another well-meaning meeting and became a psychotherapist. I forget what model she trained in, but I think it's so important for the therapist to have proper professional training. Whatever model method they use, behavioural, physical, cognitive, whatever it is, they do need to have some training. Yeah. Definitely. And they can always go to the Institute, Bob. Oh, yeah, you always can. Which is a very good place to trade. I can vouch for that. So until until next time, where I think what we're going to be talking about if we don't veer off topic again, is what works in therapy. Is that what the title of the next? Oh, my God. Well, it certainly is. That's certainly a wide topic, isn't it? Yeah, perhaps I'll start with what doesn't work. Yes. Maybe that can be the title. What does or doesn't work in therapy? Yeah, I think that's a better title, because the two go together. Yeah. Whatever model a person picks or goes for, what works or what doesn't work is vital importance, isn't it? Yeah. It's a therapeutic change and cure. Yeah, and it's not being fixed in the therapy room. I think this is what's going to work, whether you like it or not. Right, until next time, Bob. See you then. Bye-bye. Thank you so much. Bye.