 Welcome, welcome to Talk Talk Again. I'm Crystal here in Think Tech. So, you know, in terms of pushing boundaries, I'm always trying to think of like, what are ways we push boundaries just normally? And today I'd like to talk about identity and how cultural boundaries and gender boundaries kind of restrict us or inform us of who we think we are and what is that process in terms of our creative work? And I have a very creative person here, actually an old friend of mine, who was actually my music composer for my film, or in the color line, but today we're going to be talking about my month's work. And so let me introduce my month. I'm going to do the official thing first and then we'll do like the casual kind of like peeling layers off of what we know and don't know about you, okay? So, and again, this topic today is on being trans. We're going to talk about transgender, but also the transitions of what it means to become, the process of becoming something. You know, I always feel like performance is always a process of becoming. And when we're talking about music, how do we kind of go from the journey of where we think we are, what we want to create into that final product and why the process is so important. So today, really happy to have Manman. And I call you Manman, but I know your official name is Yiman Manman Mui. And Manman is a taiku drummer, artist, multidisciplinary artist, if you will, specifically. And Manman's done some really interesting things. And originally from Hong Kong, you lived in Hawaii for a little while and now you're based in California. Manman strives to build an equitable landscape through the music as an educator, fostering creativity through multisensory expression and the artistic approach challenges capitalistic and elitist social norms. And there's something of a term that I think you need to unpack for me later called neurodivergence. And I hope we can look into that. And what does that mean? And what is your relationship with music and body and just the process of becoming? So let's talk about that. Manman, welcome again to Think Tech. I know you've been here like quite a few years ago, but welcome again. Hi. Yes. Now, I really, you know, the reason I keep thinking about you is because I first met you, you identified as female, correct? And no, well, at the time I knew you. Yeah, at the time I wasn't out. I wasn't, you know, fully out using like being identifying as trans and non-binary. Yeah. I, well, but I growing up, I know I never really fully identify as a girl or as women. Like I know it, I knew it since I was a really young child. So, but it's only until recently that I have the language that being able to fully identify and share openly, this is who I am. And yeah, so when we met, that's was not the, not what we talked about for sure. And I would mistakenly refer to you as a she and I'm sorry for that. And sometimes I, you know, cause it's in your mind, you have like this idea of a, of an identity of a person. And then it's hard for me to transition and I totally respect the need to be aware of that. And so that's why I want to talk about transitions as kind of a theme for today. You know, what does it mean for me even on my side to transition my way of understanding? So can we talk a little bit about your background? Like, you know, cause you grew up in Hong Kong quite traditional, you know, Chinese family. How does that all inform you of your, your, you know, kind of identity? Well, yeah, I bought a race in Hong Kong. I immigrated to the US when I was 27. So like fully, like fully immersed as like growing up in, it's interesting when you say traditional because when I think about Hong Kong being a, you know, British being, was a British colony. And myself now these days, I started using this terms that I grew up as a British subjects. The colonies. Oh gosh. Yeah. Like actually this past 10 years living in the US helped me put in perspective and unpack a lot of what colonization has done to me. So to talk about growing up in a traditional Chinese culture. And yes, I, you know, I grew up with families. We do rituals and things and, you know, like bison meaning like we would, I would see my aunties and grandmothers doing full on like Chinese traditional practice of like religions and like culture. But at the same time, my parents are, my dad especially, it's very open-minded. So like I feel like for me, I have the luxury of growing up. Like, yes, I'm exposed to very traditional gender norms. Very like, like that's the societal, like how in, and post on like what a girl's supposed to be a boy is supposed to be that kind of thing. But at the same time, my dad, like it's encouraging me to be who I am. So your dad knew that you kind of questioned your identity early on? No, I don't think any of us have the language. Like I think when I was really young, I did express to my parents a lot of times that I want to be a boy. Like I'm happy always being mistaken that I was a boy like because of my, you know, the way I dress and appearance and I'm always more drawn to boys' clothings. And of course, you know, as a little girl, people would also put me in dress and like, right? So, but then with the culture of like where my, my immediate family, my parents, like they never really put those expectation on me. Which I appreciate, but at the same time, we didn't have the language to fully understand. I mean, I did like, I remember being a teenager. I mean, at the time I have exposure to like, oh, lesbian, gay, but that's it. Like there's no in between. And I felt like, am I a lesbian? But I also am attracted to like my, like, yeah, I know like this exploring sexual desire as a teenager is really, oh my gosh, what's going on? That's a thing about sexual desire as a youth is that we tend to explore, right? And it doesn't mean we're one thing or another, but that's part of the process. And I need to also clarify, well, gender identity and sexual desire are two different things. And but then at the time, I did not have that. I did not have that available to me to understand gender identity and sexual desire are two different things. Okay, so when were you attracted to more girls than boys at the time? I'm attracted to both. I was, I am and I was. Yeah. Which was confusing because at the time that, oh, I'm friends with people who are identified as lesbian, but I don't fully feel that I fit in with them. I dated boys, but then I also don't necessarily fit into that mode of, you know, people dating and then how like as a girl needs to show up in relationship in a certain way. The rules, women play. Yeah, I never identify, I never resonate with and looking back and also going through puberty, it was really hard. I experienced a lot of body dysphoria, meaning that I was really uncomfortable with how my body was changing. Now it makes sense because like it also makes a lot of, with like phobia too, like I couldn't understand like I was really, really discovered, had a lot of scum for my hips during the show. And then I talked to my mom and my mom would try to like, you know, like talk to me about like, oh, like you're exposed to all these media images. It's unhealthy. That's why you're thinking this way. But now I'm understanding like, okay, it's also a mixture of like body dysphoria that I was experiencing. And now looking back, having the language to understand it makes so much sense. What gave you the language? Is it being in the States? Is it being in a certain community of friends who gave you that confidence and freedom to be able to trust these ways of, you know, I think with moving, integrating to US, living in the US, being in the, I play Tycho drums, which is my main artistic expression and yeah, practice. And with that community, I'm able to connect to a larger like queer community, meeting friends who are also identified as trans and non-binary. And through that, that's how I start to like learn more. Oh, non-binary. I like this. Okay. In between space, this kind of, right? Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a man. I'm not a woman. I like, what am I? Okay, but can, do you mind if I share that? You know, I went to your wedding, right? Yes. Yes. How long ago was that? 2017. Okay. And, and you know, you dress, you dress as a nice, you know, you had a pretty, really pretty dress and jewelry and all that. Did you feel like at that time that you were going to get against what, how you wanted to be presented or you hadn't changed your mind? That's a, that's an interesting, interesting time when you're asking me this because recently I look at photos. So yeah, from the wedding. Yeah. Like, you know, now, like when I look back, first of all, clothing has no gender and like anybody can wear any clothes because clothes itself doesn't have gender. Like it's, it's a society. Regender it. Right, right. Like, yeah, like girls supposed to wear this, men supposed to wear this. Right, right. And, and now with the understanding that and also after socially transition being out as trans, I mean, I, I'm also allowing myself to explore different clothings like the haircut and, but at the same time, I do like wearing dresses. Yeah. Right. It's comfortable. I mean, I mean, there are so, there's certain type of dress I like more than the other. But then like when I look at the wedding photos, I, this is also inspired by friends that I, like, I know it's like looking at myself like, oh, if you like think of it this way, if you see a like a drag queen, right? Like, or if you see a person doing drag or, or think of me being a non-binary or more masculine, like I wrote more like, I'm leaning more towards a trans masculine and the trans masculine person wearing the dress. It could still be pretty, right? Right, absolutely. Yeah, so when I like, cause I genuinely love the dress that I paint. Yeah, no, I remember it. I love it. The hair and the makeup. I mean, I wouldn't be wearing makeup every day, but I genuinely, that was a nice experience. But it's interesting because you come across, you know, because you're delicate Asian, you know, physique and all that. So people don't question it. But when you talk about drag, it's obvious that it's like, you know, a masculine body and a feminine dress and it becomes kind of a contradiction or people kind of have this discomfort or trying to like label. So you kind of slip in this kind of this secret space, a passing for whichever way. Right, and to clarify though, like now I'm able to see myself through that lens because being able to come out like having a community do see who I am and recognize who I am, that I am able to look in the past and looking at myself being really feminine and be healing and feeling it's okay. But it took a long time because, you know, like for a very long time growing up, I never ever wearing anything pink. I never wear any, like I don't like wearing dresses. I remember a conversation I had with my cousin when I was really young, like I don't like to wear a dress. It's really uncomfortable. But then I'm asking her, why do you like to wear a dress like that? And I, and yeah, like as in, you know, like because of also realizing that it's, I don't want to be identified. I don't want people to see me as a woman. I don't want people to see me as a girl. But unfortunately, the society is kind of conditioned like, oh, you wear this, you're, of course, you're a woman. But like I'm like, no, I'm not. Like so, so many layers of- So you feel like you have the pressure to, you know how Anna going back to something boring like academic talk of Judith Butler, who was famous for her ideas on gender performativity. You know, she says, I don't even know, can I say she? You know, I, you know, they say, the idea is that we're always performing a gender, right? That it's not natural, is that sometimes it's dictated by these social norms that dictate how we think we should be presenting ourselves in order to tell people what we are, right? So do you feel like you have any of those kinds of consciousness when you dress every day or is it continuing to morph? Like as you continue to transition to kind of like just be in this fluid space of where you feel you want to be, how much does that dictate? I think it's transient. It's continuing to evolve. I certainly have a hard time partying with some of the clothing. Like this dress is so soft. Like, here's my dream. Here's my dream is that I have this really pretty pink dress that I pay a lot of money for. Okay. I still cannot feel comfortable to wear it. Not even how to get a Barbie movie or something? Oh, maybe I don't know. But here's my dream is that I want to perform in that dress. I want to perform taiko in that dress. That's something that I've been manifesting like a piece or something that... All right, I'm going to hear you say that now and I look forward to that performance because that'll be really... But I'm glad you were talking about performance stuff because I want to kind of talk about your work and your music and how your being trends kind of affects or can we use it as the metaphor, as you said earlier into the process of creating your work and how much does that affect the way your processing works? Does trends become a method of looking at fluid spaces that kind of connect body and sound and different types forms of music? Yeah, I think it's interesting. I've never really used it this way, like being trans and how that... I mean, I am trans and I am non-binary and I am neurodiverse, which you earlier asked me to unpack here. Yeah, yeah. So now that I'm able to be more authentically with my own work as an artist, I am seeing that more coming forth. Like in both my teaching, in both my composition, in both my artistic creation, it does show being more and more coming to the forefront. First off, I wanted to say that's kind of how I first got really into Taiko in the first place, Taiko Jeremy, and it has evolved too. So how I first got really into Taiko Jeremy, I started Taiko in Hong Kong and Taiko, I think, to most people, the immediate image of Taiko is very masculine. And through playing, I started Taiko maybe 12 years ago, and that's when I'm having that release. And also as someone grew up, I am autistic. I grew up with selective mutism, meaning that when I was a child, I couldn't speak. I couldn't speak at school, I only speak at home with my parents and my mama, my grandma that used to take care of me, but I couldn't speak at all in school. And so being neurodiverse, meaning how my brain is wired in a different way than how I relate to the world and not being able to speak is one way. And sometimes it's not necessary not being able to speak, it's like speaking is not my most comfortable, intuitive communication. It's a non-verbal communication. Right, and Taiko and dance and music, it's definitely like so much more in tune in line with how I like to express and connect with other people. Interesting. And Taiko being so loud, it fits so many needs for me, like redefining that gender, expectation, gender norm. And also being a small person, you can't see how big I am in Taiko. And like playing Taiko. That's what I wanna say about your performance of Taiko. I love it. You are a tiny person, but you are such a loud big person when you perform Taiko. It's a beautiful thing. It's graceful and yet powerful, it's dynamic. Can we actually, is it a good time to share the video of you doing your Taiko? We have a small part. Yeah, so to lead into that, that it's come to the part where it has evolved. Like for me, like this particular piece that I included a video to share is with a really, really big drum. And the big drum we call Odaiko, which like, of course, a lot of people think of Odaiko or think of like the hypermasculine image or people would think of like Koto performance with the Fundoshi, which is like the smaller, like with almost naked, like you see like a very masculine body playing the drum. And I created this piece is actually where I, it's a space for me to explore what femininity is and what masculinity, or maybe what does that even mean? It's a place where I reconnected with femininity because growing up, I pushed femininity like, no, that's not me. But then at the same time, now embracing my own gender identity, like we all both, we all have feminine quality and masculine quality. Like, but then the society kind of forced us to, you know, like compartmentalize. But yeah, yeah, we have to choose. We have to check a box. Yeah, well, this is an excerpt. Like we can take a look then. Well, let's take a look at it first and see, and then we can talk about it afterwards. Mama, that was a little, Cliff, if people just joining us later of your kind of, you said it was an exploration of gender through your taiko music. Can you expand on that a little bit more and how that kind of came to be? Yeah, so like I mentioned before, we watched a video that like a lot of times we associate with odaiko or taiko as hypermasculine. And this piece was a space where we, well, at first it was a solo piece, but then later on I'm like, no, it needs to be more than, I need to play with other people. I needed that interaction and connection, non-verbal communication. And it's an improvisation piece because it's a structural improvisation because it's important to me that each time this piece is being played and being performed, it's authentic, it's in the moment. It's derived from the real-time connection that happens. And for me, like why that is like an exploration because for me to be playing in a very graceful way, it took me a lot. Like now I play this piece with, at ease, like I feel really, now when I play this I feel a lot of joy, but when I first started doing this sort of like more graceful way of playing and moving, it was really difficult for me. Plus, it's almost like it's in my body that I've learned to reject any sort of femininity. And people see me, like you said, right? And Asian, fatigued women, that's how people see me. And these people are just associating me as such and such. But for years of trying to fight that off of me, it's almost in my system, in my body. Like, no, that's not me. But having a space to like, you know, I can't move this way. And it's actually natural for me to move this way. And it's actually nourishing for me to move this way. And also to move with other people that way. And in the same video, you saw my friend Kristi Akioshiro and David Wells. And I love that in that particular performance, the three of us have sort of like represented different stereotypical Like, in the case of like, how people expect, oh, here's a black man, like very masculine. And here is a more androgynous person. And me, who seemed a little bit more like, a little bit, here's I'm like, who seems maybe a little more feminine. I'm just even struggling to categorize myself in that way. You're resisting it. Yeah. But then for us to be doing this together. Yeah. Yeah. I think the key word is multi. Like, even in the beginning, you were struggling to say, OK, well, how do I, which words? I have so many titles under my belt. Which ones inform me? And what am I refusing to leave out? And I think the idea of multiple being a multi-sensorial way of knowing through Tycho. Because I'm thinking about your three bodies working with each other, next to each other. And you're also in tune with listening to each other because you have to be sensitive enough to work with each other's dynamics. And if you have those, if you will, masculine and feminine senses, if you will. I don't know. I don't want to compartmentalize as well. But at the same time, you are dealing with different dynamics. And I think that that's part of your process, too, is how do you embrace these different ways of being? And how does that become a, how does the performance itself become a process, like you say? It's really quite interesting. So how does music help transform people to understanding their bodies a little bit more? Is that because that's something you do in your workshops, right? Yes, very much so. Like it's all about centering, like you, like arriving at your body, that you are where you belong, that you are. This is actually someone described my workshop recently. I just taught in Finland. The very first thing that I did is breathe. That we all breathe together. We all, like because Taiko, I think that's why it's really healing for me that I can be in my body. I can be with my body and also feeling the resonance of vibration. But even before I hit the drum, I need to be here, grounding, standing on this ground, feeling my feet, feeling my chest, feeling every part of me. And it's the only time that I can feel that I'm fully alive that I am. And but then at the same time, I do want to emphasize that Taiko is not perfect. I still experience a lot of people who look at me and expect a certain thing. But then at the same time, I'm kind of running out of words. Because we only have a short minute left, but I want you to leave our listeners thinking about how do we push boundaries? Because there are structural things that kind of keep us in a place just for the convenience of the way the system works. And many oftentimes, we are meant to be in multiple places. So how do we do that? For you as a Taiko artist and an educator, what are some suggestions to leave people with trying to find ways to push boundaries and to be in these multiple spaces? Like it's important to connect with the history. It's important to connect with your ancestry, with where you come from. But at the same time, keep asking, is this am I showing up as who I am, or am I trying to fit in? I'm trying to fit into what people expect of me. And sometimes it's never no one way to answer that. It's always keep changing and evolving. But the process of asking, the more of you and me will come through, I think. Like don't be afraid to explore and to express, right? I mean, it's hard, easier said than done, but I feel like there's a lot to that. Again, unfortunately, we are time's up. I don't know how it went so fast. But if people are interested in your work, your website, can you just leave us with the website? Yes, I think it was shown earlier. OK, so we had it. It's by full name, Yiman, Y-M-Y-E-M-A-N-M-U-I, YimanWay.com. And I'm all over social media, check out my work. Continue to push boundaries. Thank you so much for being on Think Tech and good luck with your new projects, your multi-sensorial, multidisciplinary projects. Love it. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Check out our website, thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.