 We have a talk about counter lobbying EU institutions, and please let us welcome Christian Balls and Jeremy Zimmerman for this talk. Please give them a warm round of applause. Hello, Figuez, can you hear me? Yes, okay. It's a great pleasure to be here as usual. It's a honor. I'm very happy to be here with Christian from Moghese. I'm Jeremy Zimmerman. I'm the co-founder of La Quadrature du Net, a very citizen organization, a kind of toolbox for citizens to understand what's going on when the fundamental freedoms are attacked online, and tools for everyone to try to participate into the democratic debate. You may have heard of campaigning efforts on net neutrality or ACTA or on the telecoms package. I'm very glad to share the floor here with Christian from Moghese, because while working on apparently different issues, we're actually working towards the very same objectives of defending free and open internet, and I think he's doing an excellent job, so it's my pleasure. Maybe you can introduce Moghese, Christian. Most of the people in the room might know Moghese, probably from the German debate on access blocking, and actually I have to return the favor, because without Jeremy and La Quadrature du Net, the success we had in 2010 would have not been as it was. Can I get it to get the different microphone? So, we are living interesting times indeed. This year has been an incredible acceleration of various attacks on our freedoms. You all know what I'm talking about. It's useless to try to make an exhaustive account of all the pressures that are threatening us here in our Western democracies and all around the world, on our ability to access a neutral, therefore free internet. What is extremely interesting is the convergence of these attacks. On one hand, you can look at the war against our free access to the internet, from the angle of censorship, the political censorship you see in China, Iran, Pakistan and such friendly democracies, or you can see it from the angle of censorship coming to Europe, coming to a democracy near you in the name of child pornography or child abuse material, more precisely, or online gambling or whatsoever. You can look at the war against the free access to the internet through the angle of the copyright wars, the war against sharing, why we should at all costs ban people from sharing bits on the internet. You can also look at it from the point of view of the internet operators. Why wouldn't we make money restricting access to the internet? All those good reasons at once are increasingly coming in our faces to make the internet a balkanized assemblage of sub-networks that may ultimately lose the universality that is the key feature to the internet. Okay, when we say that, we say about everything and about nothing at once, because you all know what I'm talking about. You also all know about those strange political entities and we can barely call them entities that we've seen in the last months appearing on the stage. We've seen WikiLeaks teaching the world how important it is to publish information that is held secret for wrong reasons. We've seen those indignados, indignés, however you call them, occupy movements that for various reasons coordinated themselves and gave huge amounts of noise and pressure on some issues. We all have in mind those anonymous lulsec, antisek, whoever, who rose massive attention on questions of computer security that were mostly unheard before outside of our nerdy hacker circles. And so we're here as citizens in the middle of it. On one end is this global war against knowledge, this global war against freedom of online that we are witnessing every day. And on the other hand are those entities that organize themselves in some vaporous sway with no center, with no mass, with no gravity, with no head, with nothing. And we all feel the power that those organizational models bear, right? We all use those free software and Wikipedia and so on for so many years that we integrate into our ways of life, the power of the crowd. Well, the question is how can we use this intelligence, this wisdom, this still free network to try to change something? So we start with the postulate, can you say that? We have to postulate that only the people who think that there is nothing we can do about it will do nothing about it and cannot do anything about it. For the rest of us, we know that there are things we can do to change things. So we start with that. And the question is how to go further. You know, Mogis and La Quadrature du Net for constantly spamming you with information about this is going on in the European Parliament, in the jury committee with this and that reporter doing that on that amendment that day. So we are here inside the institutions, not because we like it, but because we think it is useful to extract information, extract meaningful information from those information to give it to you and to give it to anyone who might do something about it. So we are not saying here that acting towards the European Parliament or the Commission or how is it called, the Council? Council. Yeah, this thing. Minister. We do not say that this is the only way to go, that this is the only thing to do. And of course it is not because it is about creating a political context on our issues. It is about changing the minds of the people one at a time. It is about making all issues big, hot, on the table, impossible to avoid. And all this and I hate to use this term. All of this is politics. Not politics with an uppercase P like the party politics or the politicians. We call them in French, unpolitical, political men or women. No, it's not that politics. It's the politics of people caring about the society around them and trying to change it. And this is what we can try to do. And this is, well, we have some examples in the past of victories and we're here to tell you about the next victories we'll have in the UN institutions in order to try to reach that goal. So we'll discuss a bit the UN institutions. You all recognize Mrs. Nelly Cruz. She's a European commissioner for Digital Agenda, so she's in charge of doing nothing on our issues. And well, this is a beautiful picture of her doing nothing, actually. And I think it's quite emblematic, actually, of the way she is acting or non-acting right now on the question of net neutrality. This is one of the hottest issues we have on the table as La Quadrate du Net at the moment on the EU level. So let me tell you this in the form of a kind of anecdote that will give you a very precise idea of where we stand and what we can do on net neutrality. We triggered a vast debate around the telecom's package on the question of net neutrality, but we're a bit late or short of campaigning power because all of you in the second reading in the text. But the parliament was shaken with this question and asked the commission, oh, and by the way, we accept the telecom's package as it is, but acknowledge that net neutrality is an important issue. We would be very grateful if you could just, you know, work on it and tell us what to do next. So it was a way for the parliament not to ignore the problem, just the next step after ignoring the problem. They might be a problem and kick the problem out so somebody else should do something about it. So instead of the six months, I think, that were initially planned, Nile Cruz took one year and a half to give a report on net neutrality that basically says nothing. It's a 12-page document when one week before a commission in the French parliament in the Economic Affairs Committee of the French parliament gave a 90-pages report on net neutrality saying that there was a problem, it was urgent to take action, and there should be a concrete law proposal about it. Well, that was 90 pages in the French parliament. Nile Cruz gives 12 pages saying, it might not be a problem after all. And if there is one, well, we'll ask this European body of regulators to do a study to tell us if there is a problem and if there is a problem, maybe we can try to stop thinking of something to do about it and that's how Nile Cruz sent with the head in a bucket. So, we're currently right here when Nile Cruz is expecting results from BEREC, which is a body of European regulator. I don't know what's the name of the German agency for telecom regulation, the equivalent of French... Bundesnetzagentur. Bundesnetzagentur? So, BEREC is the body that rassembles the 27 Bundesnetagenturs of the year. Ah, come on, come on. Well, the 27 Arsep, that's the French one, it's easier. And they're in charge of a fact-finding exercise on net neutrality. So they will go with a magnifying glass looking at the cables in 27 countries. They will come back with a suitcase with lots of stickers from all the 27 countries and maybe after some months they will find that either there is no problem with net neutrality or maybe they will find there is one. And this is clearly a place where we can exert our influence and this is what we're doing right now. We launched a citizen reporting platform called Respect My Net, respectmynet.eu or respectmy.net which people, citizens, well hackers, mostly, can come and say, okay, I'm in Germany, I'm on Vodafone, I've got this mobile type of contract and my port 22 is blocked. And you can come and say, oh, Vodafone, Germany, that's my contract, my port 22 is blocked too. I confirmed that. And that's more than 70 reports confirmed all around Europe in, I think, nine member states at the moment over more than 25 operators where problems with net neutrality are reported. So we went to see with the people from BEREC, they know about Respect My Net already, we encourage all of you people to go and do some reporting, confirm the reports already in the database and then we will print a long sheet of paper with all the reports and we will wrap BEREC with it, we will wrap Nelly Cruz, oh I don't know, but we'll make it a big physical object and we'll take photos of it and we'll bring in front of them the day before they will say whether there is a problem or not because we all know there is a problem. So it is a few nights of coding in Python and Django and I thank so much Steph for the incredible work he's doing on that. But that's quite simple coding and simple campaigning on a very topical issue to make it much, much, much more difficult for Christi's Cruz to keep her head in the bucket on the question of net neutrality and maybe Christian there's something similar about the issues you're working on with child filtering and the attitude of the institutions and I think you have things to say about how do you institution react to on one hand the pressure that you may exert or the pressure that some kind of weird, let's call it an industry, may exert on them. Do you see this wait and see approach as a political strategy from the new legislature? When I first saw your slide with the bucket I was thinking about it and actually it's like her putting her head in the sand and when I was thinking about putting her head in the sand I was thinking about the Arab world and the uprisings we have there and about all the lawful interception software that is being sold to the Arab world for intercepting and surveillance and actually she was asked about it and then she said something about self-regulation. If self-regulation would work for these digital arms dealers they would already be self-regulating them because the press that they get from selling this stuff to such countries is not very good so if self-regulation would work it would have happened in the past so she just put her head in the bucket in the beginning of December when being asked so what do you do about the lawful interception being sold to Syria? And to add to that it's quite interesting that she has the no disconnect strategy which actually tries to connect dissidents to the internet actually I believe part of a disconnect strategy would be to work on the companies who do the lawful interception. So how can I say this no disconnect strategy for example doesn't look serious in that regard because then controlling this digital arms dealing at least from the European Union would be part of a no disconnect strategy especially because what happens to the people there the worst that happens to them is not that they are being disconnected from the internet in Syria they just die so we should take that a little more serious and especially then perhaps you might have realized that in Germany there was a big uprising about Gutenberg who represents the no disconnect strategy apart everything that has been said about Gutenberg there are two things that should not be lost in the focus Gutenberg never finished anything he's not trustworthy he never finished anything he did not finish his degree he did not finish the reform of the German Bundeswehr and there are lots of other projects that are left undone that he just started so I think for anybody interacting with Mr. Gutenberg you should make sure that whatever you start gets finished maybe he knows more about the internet than he knows politicians yes you know it's like saying oh you know like a moth knows a lot about the light bulb you know he ran into it and he got burned by it so he knows about light bulbs sorry the internet he knows about copy and paste already now he knows about the power of the constituents to hold their electees to whatever yes we should really be talking about that the other thing is like this involvement of the CSIS some American organization doing policymaking and now steering the policy of the European Commission looks a little strange perhaps she should be doing the policy herself I mean that's why she's a commissioner and so actually she puts her head in the bucket now perhaps she wants to redo the node disconnect strategy node's very modern to put 2.0 on everything so perhaps a node disconnect 2.0 where they involve the activists from the beginning and perhaps set up a working group like a serious working group with the people actually doing the stuff who have the expertise and who have the standing to do that but you asked me about like my interaction with the commission you know this net neutrality is the one thing you have the telecoms operators who don't want the neutral internet because then they can sell services and how do manufacturers want to sell those so-called smart networks yes you need more processing power if you have DPI the other thing is where a lot of agenda setting happens is this child protection on the internet so one thing is you have the primary child protection protection against abuse and then you have like newer movements like the coalition to make the internet a better place for kids well I would call for the coalition to make the world a better place for kids first but anyway so this coalition just started actually it's also done by the same women it's part of a digital agenda just making internet a better part for kids so it started in first of December it has about 27 founding members it's like almost every important hardware vendor for your so-called smartphones and then a few media providers like RTL in Germany and other media outlets and they are all working together to make the internet a better place for kids perhaps they want to make the internet a second kindergarten something that you can put your child in front of like TV for example actually I wouldn't put my child in front of a TV nowadays perhaps in front of a computer but not in front of a TV anyway what you have to understand about these movements that the commission initiates a working plan on something and then you have all the people like flocking to it and especially in this topic you have what I now call the child rights industry I call them the child rights industry because they are an industry they depend on the cash flow and their cash flow is being driven by your desire to help children so they depend on you saying oh that poor child oh I want to help that organization when I came here this morning I was asked my name is Evelyn it has been two minutes my name is Evelyn do you have two minutes well she asked my name my name is Evelyn what is your name well I didn't say it but anyway first I thought she was Scientology no she wasn't with Scientology she was with UNICEF she was with UNICEF she opened her map so first I thought it was Scientology I knew that questions from Scientology but not from UNICEF so she was with UNICEF and she wants to raise money and so they say what cool they did you know they work on making the internet a safer place for children and against child porn whatever I said sorry I am against child porn blocking I am against the blocking infrastructure how can you dare sorry I'm like the member of an organization of victims of sexual abuse and for us is blocking is not the right solution anyway so you have this big industry and they have one problem their market share depends on how many children there are and nowadays in Europe there are less children every year so their market is getting smaller every year so first they redefine what a child is so nowadays a child is not somebody before the age of sexual majority nowadays a child is a person under 18 under the new child exploitation directive a child is a person who looks like a child like a person under 18 just have a look at the directive by Dan just now that we finished it says a child is like child pornography child pornography is like pornographic images of a child or a person appearing to be a child and this can mean like a lot of people so they are enlarging their market they are enlarging the problem that they are working on the problem of child pornography it's not about child abuse images anymore that's why I tell you don't use the word child pornography if you use the word child pornography you are already in that trap if you want to fight child abuse images call them child abuse images it's really important that you get that right the first litmus test for child to distinguish between child rights activists and the child rights industry the first litmus test is whether they say child pornography or child abuse material or child abuse images whether you use pornography the word pornography or not because it's not pornography if they understand that then they are into child right activists and the second litmus test I use is about male genital mutilation you know if they are about children's rights they care for girls and boys on the same but the child rights industry only cares about female genital mutilation because that happens in Africa it happens in Africa and you can raise money to fight it if it happens in Europe or the US it's difficult to raise money to fight it raise money to fight male genital mutilation good luck it's a big part of American culture 80% so it's like mainstream start fighting us because of the right of the child to be intact yeah that's my two litmus tests the first is child pornography like most of the child rights industry fail the first test which ones do you find in the EU commission in Brussels you know what you find you find the guys who are political mainstream this is the European political mainstream political measures to do this for example you have this the red one this is the advertisement for the written declaration 29 the written declaration 29 was about an early warning system for pedophiles and they wanted to use your search data to do that early warning system and they advertised this early warning system as being similar to the early warning system and this was very interesting and what it had hidden down there you had this collection of search data and data mining search data and half of the European parliament signed the written declaration 29 motivated by pictures like that and by nice looking women standing in front of the parliament in Strasbourg and forcing them to sign the commission to do so the INEXA project and the SAFE internet project the SAFE internet project is the internet for kids coalition the thing is about the internet kids coalition why I mentioned this is because it's still open for input you can still register with them register for the working program until the 15th of January 2012 because their working plan is for 2012 they have five working groups working on five different few of them like yes a few of them about paradigm control which might be not as bad as for example reporting harmful content or content classification for example so you have to get involved with the European commission to work on that and even propose legislation the same you don't go there to get through what you want but you are there to get the information and perhaps steer the discussion process a little because then when it becomes legislative proposal it's not as bad as it would have been without our involvement so if you're involved early what they propose is not as bad and then when it gets into the legislative process we can even make it less bad and that's my opinion about involving the European commission the earlier you start the more influence you have on the process they won't do what we want but at least we can steer a little bit the discussion process similar to the child exploitation directive where thanks to Joe McNamee from Edry we had an early warning and so when the directive the proposal for the directive came out I already had my appointments made in the European Parliament the proposal before they read it and actually that's what I would propose so if you that part of the population that cares about what happens to the internet then probably a little bit more involvement is needed than just waiting for the next outrage actually you have to involve with them it's sometimes reading a web page for proposals they ask for input the commission asks for input for everything then you have all the child's protection industry and the other industries they have their lobbyists they are paid to watch their pages and they give the input but we don't that's the point I think we are here to do this preparatory work I say we in general as the organizations and the people who are more or less full time the head into the UN institutions we provide the input we as La Quadra Turdinette have seen most of the head of UNIT in the European Commission who are caring about copyright copyright enforcement and the e-commerce directive and we are now in direct contact with them we send them links we send them analysis when we produce them and so on so we do this work with more and more experience and knowledge along the years but this by itself is not enough but you said we need the involvement the participation of citizens who care about that the point is in what you describe it is so obvious with the child abuse and the child rights industry people it is also obvious when we talk about security that emotional arguments are used to make something go through it's storytelling it's elements of language that come along a low proposal or amendments or whatever and this is the way the lobbyists work this is they probably learn that if there is such a thing as lobbyists school they learn that you give a very good reason to the people you want to do something to do it and then you tell them what to do and this is the way it works so they have the very strong and very emotional arguments about that but we are right so how can we do it how can we explain to them that we are right when they come with such an emotional load of cute looking kids with obviously a full photography set and studio in front of her asking her to look so cute and in this full distress I mean will lolcats be enough to counter the cute this is one question that seriously needs to be addressed and love if you want to love but I think that lolcats are part of the answer actually because we are the internet because we own the internet we make the internet every day and we know that this is using this internet that we can do something about anything we might be able to do something about so the question is really about articulating the work towards the institution with the drive of not somebody like you fellow politicized hackers but somebody like the friends of your family who might find that the lolcat on the internet is cool that downloading music is cool than chatting with people from India is cool and so on but don't realize that all this may be threatened today I think we'll have a wonderful occasion to practice on the Akta fight that is now beginning in the European Parliament who among you never heard about Akta yay no hands for the one or two hands Akta is the anti counterfeiting trade agreement I'll show you a little video that will tell you more than I can do in such a short period of time about Akta it's the Shakespearean tragedy of how democracy can be circumvented to achieve control over the internet there are international organizations where such issues of intellectual property can be discussed but Akta aims at circumventing even those international institutions because they don't obeying enough to what the US based industry wants them to do so this is an ad hoc forum designed to circumvent democracy the most sneaky language is inside about cooperation of the ISPs to take measures to deter further infringement or else you face criminal sanction for aiding and abetting infringement on a commercial scale which could translate that if you're operating machines on the internet you will get screwed unless you deploy censorship measures but there is a small very small bug in their plan of imposing Akta to the US their 12 negotiating partners and ultimately to the rest of the world indeed there is a little tiny bug into it is that since the Lisbon Treaty that entered into force actually well after the Akta began to be negotiated according to the Lisbon Treaty the European Parliament now has to say yes or no to any trade agreement and Akta is this guy's as a trade agreement so the European Parliament will have one vote one occasion to say yes or no to Akta so this is where we come into play this process has just begun in the European Parliament I won't bore you with the procedural details the Council of the EU the Ministers just gave the dossier to the European Parliament so now the fight begins there will be a vote in no less than three months it could take forever it will most probably be in the first part of 2012 but before that final vote there will be subcommittees of the European Parliament who all will discuss and vote on an opinion this will be as many stages as possible so the European Parliament will have one vote one occasion to intervene to call the members of these committees and say you cannot let that wording into your opinion you have to put that and that and that you have to take into account the legal uncertainty it brings to the internet companies you have to take into account the risk for fundamental freedoms you have to actually go to the members of the Parliament in charge of these committees until the pressure will be high enough so the few days before the final vote the yes or no vote everybody on the fucking interwebs will be aware that there will be a tough vote in the European Parliament we should care about that's the plan and you all have a role in that plan where once again will be inside the Parliament to tell you now is the time to call the people from the industry committee where the list is here thanks to our political memory you will be able to just click them and call them using voice over IP or some other very cool fancy technology we didn't deploy yet but will soon we will be there to blow in the whistle and say hey guys this is important now there is this and this and that but it's not enough it's not only following instructions or reading a script that would help us to get there it is every possible invention means of action that could be invented to make people aware about ACTA to make the members of the Parliament aware that people are aware of ACTA because this is ultimately how we said the political context you know this reptilian part of the brains of the politicians that constantly every few cycles checks whether or not he has chances to be re-elected this is to that part of the brain that ultimately we speak if the issue is hot enough if everybody is enraged against anyone if they vote yes on ACTA then the finger will tremble when it will get next to the voting machine and this is precisely the effect we want to get so as it will soon be time to open for question because the more trolling the more input and feedback and so on the more useful and entertaining this can be I'll show you a small movie well I'm actually out of it I have to show off they don't represent us but they are deciding laws behind our backs bypassing our democratic processes they impose new criminal sanctions to stop online file sharing ACTA aims to make internet service and access providers legally responsible for what their users do online turning them into private copyright police and judge censoring their networks the chilling effect on free speech would be terrible in the name of patents ACTA would give large corporations the power to stop generic drugs before they reach the people who need them and to stop the use of certain seeds for crops the European Parliament will soon vote on ACTA this vote will be the occasion to say no once and for all to this dangerous treaty as citizens urge our representatives to reject ACTA thank you so I am very proud of this this bit of film it has been seen one million times in the first week we published it it reached number 52 most viewed video on YouTube that week and number one most viewed and most favorited video in the news and politics section of YouTube the week we released it so to everyone telling you well nobody cares about it anyway you can tell them that the video got much more attention than any video from their political party or whatever got so far but that's an example we had a volunteer animator working for TV who did that for us his intern spent one month doing it and to me it's a wonderful example of what you can do not with one more press release or blog entry or anything but really using vivid, colorful image symbols or anything else than we do usually to convey the very same message so this is one example among many others and I hope yeah I think we can open the floor now so maybe you suggest other ways of action or you tell us of your ways of action or ask questions or whatever and yes thank you very much for your ok now for the Q&A session could you please raise your hand and we'll have a microphone come over to you you can use the microphone over there I suspended myself I've been seeing these things happening every now and then we have actually changed our government and we thought we got rid of our part of acting in Spain but we didn't and the thing is is there a list of politicians who we can actually trust because I get the feeling not what I mean is I get the feeling if we get the attention on one politician who we are going to vote as long as he's with us the other ones will take this example and I would love to see something like that and there's a politician not caring about lobbies but about us, I mean people and yeah in case so where can I find it you know the the care bears those bears with rainbows maybe in the world of the care bears you can find such politicians I don't know more seriously political systems wherever they are you have the small minority of the really corrupt people another small minority of the people really caring and working and in the middle the vast majority of people who don't give a fuck so those are the people we should target in priority we must find and there are some probably even in Spain I don't know some who really care they trust you when you come to them and talk to them regularly and give them info and you tell them what to do once and they do it and they have positive feedback afterwards and so on and so on so working with them so they will do the activists within their groups and convince their colleagues while the whole internet will be set on fire too much there will be problems so it is very complex system we are trying to influence and you cannot answer by yes or no by white or black but it's interesting what you said about the leisinde being your part of the actor it's actually more complex than that and allows me for a quick comment that I should maybe have said earlier leisinde is a pre-actor legislation once actor will be adopted ratified by the EU if the European Parliament votes for it then Spain at some stage will be forced to transpose it the actor will become a revision of the IPRED directive that then will have to be transposed in Spain whatever happens so the point is to intervene as early as possible in the process so Spain won't have to fight yet another stupid law when if actor is adopted and also we have to see or battlefield as not being only the parliament and the texts that are discussed into it we win political battles in France after two years of parliamentary Afghanistan war the adoptee got finally adopted but it got adopted dead already and it is a political defeat for the government in France that is still sounding every day in their ears today so the text maybe ultimately adopted because the majority is held or because the lobbyists are so powerful or the system is so screwed or whatever but if such a high part of the population understand that this is complete bullshit and is not afraid about it and knows how to circumvent it then this may wait in the next elections and this is part of the answer what I wanted to add is that leisinde, adoptee, acta, sopa in the US are exactly the same thing they are exactly part of the same global influence led by those anti-right industries let's call them the sopa in the US is a mix between acta and between the attacks of the US government against WikiLeaks it is a slightly more evolved version of acta because it takes the financial intermediaries as targets for censorship measures but all this is extremely well connected and we are all extremely well connected with the people of EFF like Ezel Schaft La Ex in Spain and Red Sostenible so we must use this connectedness to expose the connectedness of those issues in various countries and parliaments and in the end I think it makes us stronger you have something to add maybe I forgot something to say because you said something about transposition in my part of the talk because the child exploitation that I was working on in the beginning had the mandatory blocking of internet that we got out of the directive and it's now voluntarily done by the member states but additionally we got some judicially oversight into the directive what is important for the people who live in countries which have the blocking system already in place with the transposition of the directive into your national law there will be also the transposition of the judicially oversight usually involving a judge means involvement of some law so they have to pass a law on blocking, on having a blocking infrastructure so that is the point for you during the transposition of the child exploitation directive that you make sure that you have a public discussion about blocking in your home country which would mean like Sweden France for example Hadobi do the second Hadobi law and I think also Spain and Italy already has a law UK so you have to make sure that during the transposition of that directive that you get either a law on blocking or the blocking removed from your internet so that's something I forgot in my part of the talk my question is just recently there was a decision of the European Union Court of Justice in Luxembourg that the providers are not responsible for the content, how much does this support you? Well it's an interesting decision indeed it's the Scarlett versus Sabam case in that case in Belgium Sabam which is the equivalent of Gema asked Scarlett an internet service provider belonging to Tiskali I think, well here is the catalogue of all the songs and all the people or members you have to block all that on your network and so the judge in Brussels asked to the Luxembourg Court is that compatible with EU law and the decision was generalized blocking not limited in time that cost has to be taken by the operator and one or two other criteria is not compatible with EU law which leaves open the door for non generalized filtering or filtering that would be limited in time or whose charge won't be on the operators so this decision doesn't kill any attempt to censorship it just kills the biggest broadest and thinkable but the others are still open and the decision says this is not compatible with EU law and EU law may change actually it will change European commissioner Michel Barnier commissioner to internal market is working on the revision of the IPRED directive since he is in office if ACTA is adopted by the European Parliament within six months we have a draft proposal from the commission of a revision of IPRED that will integrate ACTA that will require cooperation to implement measures to deter further infringement and then the EU law may be compatible with this kind of measure so it's not the end of the fight far from it but it's a very very interesting decision and I encourage you to read it because in two different occasions it states that yes an IP address is personal data so yeah it's a useful decision just regarding this this this topic everyone knows as child pornography which isn't it which we heard do you know that if there is an activity in the internet for instance from side like groups like Anonymous or so to work against these places where such photos appears because this would help the force it's not necessary to do any other laws against this because the internet is doing something against it because for instance in Germany for writing servers publishing writing content there has been such kind of activities do you know if there are activities in this topic as well well the difference is whether it's about speech or whether there is a victim or me because like hate speech in first is a victim less crime until somebody becomes a victim of hate speech but it's not like produced by a victim or by there's no victim in first but second there's a difference between child abuse images and free speech issues the other thing is a very serious crime and I'm not a proponent of anarchy so I see why there's a reason why we have police force for example and I would think that the best way probably would be that they use to learn TOR and find the hidden sides and perhaps get the cooperation of TOR operators to get that offline but that's something cooperation is something that the police is not very good at so police is like used to use that function and go and beat people up for not cooperating on the part of your question speaking about anonymous I don't know about anonymous I know nobody who's part of anonymous I couldn't if I wanted no I know about their activities I cannot say that I support all of them including when some personal data is being published about individuals or users sometimes I think it's perfectly legitimate but it's like a denial of service attack is the equivalent of going into a supermarket and sit into it with a political movement it's like some kind of happening or protest and I think that calling that pirating or attacks or destroying or whatever is a bit indeed to go too far it's an ethanol question in our activist circles I may say how much do we stay within the boundaries of legality how much do we think it is legitimate to go outside of those limits and how far outside so with La Quadra TurgiNet we publish what we do and we stay within the frame of the democratic debate we preach for civil disobedience on the regard of sharing files on the internet because we say it is legitimate it is good for culture for the economic culture and so on because we could say something minor the question is shall we publish the inbox of people doing such things I mean it's everybody to judge by themselves everyone is responsible for the actions I will not say never do it I will not say do it people think for themselves what I think very interesting is I saw an anonymous operation against SOPA I guess I don't know what it was about probably be one against ACTA someday probably I see that as hackers becoming politicized you know like I do you remember a few years ago you would talk to any hacker but politics ah politics I don't even vote screw them they suck and so on well recently with WikiLeaks, with the Arab Spring with everything going at once people are more well happening you know so to me anonymous people participating in anonymous is kind of a first step you know of trying to do something about it with a choice that is one way of action and I think that the more different ways of action as long as we go towards the same objective and that is not becoming counterproductive and there is a very high risk of that with anonymous but the more parallel actions there is the best it is in general I think that is another question here yes this is going to be the last question yes the microphone for you yeah I just want to make this short and go back to the topic of lobbying when I was preparing some campaign against the passenger name records agreements I found it really really frustrating to get contact information out of the site of the European Parliament I just posted on the 28 C3 Wiki a small SQLite file that contains all the contact information for members of the European Parliament including the committees they are part of so if you are interested in emailing them and email them often and everyone here should do so to search your own MEPs and email them for all different kinds of reasons go on the 28 C3 Wiki for MEP database and you can download it there you also have an extension for the phones I thank you and warmly congratulate you and thank you especially for giving me the occasion to speak a bit more about political memory because this is a tool we developed for some years and we have been able to hold the data about the parliamentaries I think you, well we chose not to give such an option to give all the email addresses at once because it would encourage some massive spamming and our approach is to recommend to send targeted emails because I think that one specifically targeted email like dear mrs. Nana I live in the place where you were and this has much more weight that dear mrs. or mr. MEP here is what I want to tell you that's one thing second yes emails can be ignored therefore you should send an email and then make a phone call asking oh did you receive my email no you don't remember I'll tell you about it and this is very much harder to ignore and if so if there are 100 phone calls coming on the same day in the office and 10,000 emails and if you see the number in the filter going it really means something anyway so I encourage you you can go to the wiki to fetch that list you can also join the political memory mailing list if you know how to code python jango if you know web design if you want to help the coolest feature of all in political memory is that we record the votes of the members of the parliament over time so you can see compared to the average of the parliament where one member stands is he a friend of us or is he an enemy is he learning or is he getting convinced by the dark side this is all the data porn we can make out of this and I'm sure there are lots of data porn freaks around here who could help us gladly so this is one example using technology using hacking skills to do concrete bits of the internet that will raise the political cost for them to take the bad decision next time they will have to take a decision and this is once again a play in which all of us have a role and yeah, thank you very much and if maybe you have something to add Christian? I think you do and I think really we should not forget that there are tools out there we should not always reinvent the wheel sometimes we have to reinvent the wheel but political memory the second version is very good and so please if you are working on the European parliament please use political memory and therefore make it even more valuable than it already is yes