 We are live on Facebook. Welcome to Global Perspectives on Race, Justice, and Equity. I'm Abbey Williams, Director of the Institute for Global Leadership and Professor of the Practice of International Politics at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. The aim of Global Perspectives is to contribute to the long overdue national and global conversation on racial discrimination, which is deeply embedded in the political, economic, and social structures of many societies. These conversations will challenge everyone to take action to address the destructive legacy of systemic racism and to help promote a better and a more just and equitable world for all. Our guest today is General Nadia West. She is the 44th Army Surgeon General and the former commander of the Army Medical Corps. She is the first African-American Surgeon General, the first African-American woman with a three-star general and the highest-ranking woman graduate of West Point. So Nadia, welcome to Global Perspectives. It's a pleasure to have you with us. And let me take you back to the beginning. You were adopted into a large family of 11 other children. What sort of childhood did you have? Well, thanks, Abby. And it's really great to join you today to be able to talk about this really important topic. So thanks for the invitation. And thanks for starting off with my childhood, because, again, that is what led me to who I am today is the basis and the foundation that I got. And that was a gift, because as you mentioned, I was adopted. So things could have gone much differently for me if it weren't for the big hearts of my parents that adopted me and my brothers and sisters. So growing up, it was quite an interesting time. So I was the youngest of 12. And so of course, the favorite of all the family. But my brothers and sisters knew it as well. So no problems there, no argument there. But the family was really a great laboratory and hard work, values, deep faith, working together, resilience. I mean, all those things, I didn't think of it at the time, of course, but looking back, how my parents raised us in the example they showed was really phenomenal. And then my dad, who was in the military, growing up with that culture, because the discipline in the military, he taught us the discipline as well. Being on time, doing all the things you need to do, working hard, and not complaining or whining when things get too tough. And so those are some of the things that were in there from, and then more from my mom as well. But I'll stop there. As I mentioned to you before, Abby, you have to cut me off. I won't be embarrassed, but I won't be upset or offended because once you get me started, I'll keep talking all day. So you have permission to say, OK, that's enough. Let's move on. OK, you mentioned, I'm sure, you mentioned, of course, there that your dad had been in the military. Did that have an impact on you going to West Point? And of course, you were, I think, one of the first three classes, maybe the third class, which was actually of women who admitted to West Point. Did that have an impact on you going to West Point? And how did you feel when you arrived at West Point? Well, absolutely. Abby, I did have an influence on me. My dad joined the Army in 1939. And so if you think back, the Army was still segregated at the time. The executive order that President Truman had enacted in 1948 was still quite a while in the coming. So he entered an Army where colored troops, as they were called, were trained separately from the white troops. And Fort Wichuga, Arizona, was where they sent all the colored troops, but that's what they called them at the time, to get training. And so he used to tell us stories of that all the time, of how it started off where there was a perception that this was a punishment tour for the white soldiers that had to train them. But as they started training them, teaching them how to march, teaching them how to fire their weapons, all the things, they started to see, OK, these are soldiers too. These are individuals. Some get it really quickly. Some can march really well. Some have two left feet. They could see that these are people just like us. And you could see them kind of, not all of them. It wasn't all rosy. But most of them, he saw their hearts changing because most of them had never had exposure to blacks in anything, but a subservient role or what they heard. So his starting in the military and seeing that that could be a model for society, he stayed for 33 years. So clearly he loved it, despite all the words, despite everything that he had to go through. And it wasn't easy. I mean, so he didn't paint it as a picture that it was easy. But he saw the promise in the organization. And so that's what kind of planted the seed, just hearing these stories. My dad advanced, he made it all the way up to first sergeant, which in the enlisted ranks. And then he went to warrant officer schools. He had an opportunity to be a warrant officer and retired as a W-4, which is really unheard of at that time in the 70s. So he actually was able to take advantage of some of the advancements based upon merit. And what a novel concept during the time that he was in when it really wasn't that way in society. So that had an impact on me. My older brothers and sisters all joined as well. Some, one was in the Navy, one was in the women's army, women's auxiliary Air Force. So that's the WAFs and several of my sisters were WAX, the Women's Army Corps, and that's when they separated women. Women were in separate branch than the men back in the 50s, 60s. So fast forward to me in 1978, when I started at West Point. And I had an older brother who went, he graduated in 76. And so when I started, just think of how things had changed from 1939, a segregated army. 1960s and 70s separate for women and men. 1978, the service academies were open for women. And so that was kind of a, just the evolution of the military kind of leading society and equal work for equal pay, opening jobs that were non-traditional for women and things of that nature. And so I was honored to be able to go there. So you asked the other part of your question was what did you think when you first went there? It was a bit of a culture shock. I went to an all girls Catholic high school in Maryland, which was very small, like 250 students in the entire school to basically all male military academy with 4,000 cadets total. And about a little over a thousand in my class, actually 1,200 in my class started and 126 women were in that class. So we were not a whole lot of us back then. And so it was a culture shock. It was something I had never thought that, I knew my brother went there, but it's different when you see someone else that's going there. And I was in high school, junior high and high. So I didn't pay much attention to it. But when you sit there and you're there and you're learning and people are telling you, back then they could yell at you and go here, go there. And I was thinking, whoa, what did I get myself into? So it was a bit of a culture shock. And how did you deal with this culture shock? Because you're both a woman and you're an African-American. How did you deal with the culture shock? And how did your peers at West Point and then the instructors at West Point deal with this? Yeah, so first of all, a lot of people were in shock. So as far as our classmates, I think most people were in the survival mode. So I think when you're in the survival mode, you can't look to the left and right and wonder whether or not somebody else should be there instead of you. You're trying to figure out how you're gonna stay. So your peers were typically, we're all in this together. And that's what they teach you. We're all in this. I didn't really have any negative impact or negative feelings from my peers on the wholesale. Are there one or two or three, of course, were there those that came from backgrounds where they just didn't know any better? Yes, and then you had to educate them. One of my friends who is a black cadet said when he first got a roommate, and of course you don't pick your roommates, you're put in rooms. And so he was in the room already and then when the white cadet came in, he looked and you could see his face fall like up. And he finally told him that he used to hide his wallet. And then you only have so many places in the room. You got two beds and desks and so on. But the white roommate said, I used to told us, because they became friends. He said, I gotta admit to you, at first when I found you in my roommate, I would hide my wallet because where I come from, we were told, yeah, you got steel, you're this, you're that and the other. So I think there was a lot of ignorance. And of course about the hair, my hair used to be real curly and back then they made us cut our hair. We couldn't wear it in a bun or anything. No braids, nothing like that back in the 70s, in 78. So it kind of looked crazy all the time because you had to go take a swimming lesson and you know what happens with wet hair and swimming and then you have to go to class and so you draw, you couldn't go back to your room and fix it and so it was always an issue. Some people are like, what's up with your hair because they're not used to ethnic hair. So there were all these little things like that but not so much from the classmates from the upper class. It was not so much a race thing back then. I mean, I know there were pockets of it and back then you just dealt with it in society but it was more the women thing. So the class of 79, which were the last on the class, were really looking at how they could run all, some of them, how they could run all the women out before they graduated because they just were not for it. Now, when you talk about the leadership and the professors, that one thing that the academy did because it was a law that said you will have women, all the service academies will be open to women as you know, Naval Academy, West Point Air Force Academy and Merchant Marie, I think VMI and other public schools were private schools, not yet. So they were very committed to those that, and some of the senior leaders that didn't agree with it, they were asked to find another job or they were not asked to, they were told to find another job because they were committed to the success. So there was a commitment at the top from the superintendent, the dean, the commandant all the way down and the same with the professors. And if they found that folks just wouldn't, weren't for it, they said, hey, you can either get on board or you can leave because this is gonna work. So I think that was helpful that the cadrace or the professors. So I, me personally, I know I've heard stories of others that ran into some folks that may have secretly, did something or said something or felt something and reflected in people's grades or participation grades or things, but thankfully I've never experienced that during my time there. And so you never had any experience of anybody trying to run you out or saying that you couldn't really survive at West Point. Well, I did have people that tried to run me out. There was a, I wouldn't say his name because I don't wanna make him, because I'm sure that he was young and during that time we're all young, early 19, 19, 20, 21 year old. But he basically told me that when he graduated, he was a senior, I would not be there. And yeah, and that was actually, I think, and that's one of the things where I'm actually grateful for that because I was thinking about leaving. I was like, I can't, this was, it was really hard. It was hard, just the cadet life was hard. Women still, like I said, some of the upper classes didn't want us there, but it was personal. And then when he said that, I said, okay, if you had to say nothing at all, I probably would have quit after the first semester, but now that you've told me that, I'm gonna stay if it kills me. So yeah, there were a couple that would say stuff like that. And yeah, and so there were some that would have those comments or write you up for things that it was subjective, so you really couldn't argue about it, right? Your room's not clean. What do you mean by not clean? I found a speck of dust, okay. So if there were things that you couldn't really argue, you just had to deal with it. But it gave me a sense of purpose to prove him wrong, and I certainly did in more ways than one. So I took that negativity and kind of turned it around and used that to motivate me for, to keep going and to finally succeed. Yeah, I can understand that when you pitch folks, I was not at a West Point or in a military situation, but when you pitch folks, you're 17 and 18 and you're in a predominantly white environment and you're being challenged, it sort of gives you the sort of inner resources and the inner strength to really cope and to try and achieve your goals, which brings me to your other main, one of the main achievements, your decision to become a physician because you're a trained physician. When did you realize you wanted to become a medical doctor? Well, I was during my time at West Point and so I'll go back a little farther. So I'm a trekking from way back. And so I used to watch Star Trek when I was five, six years old, not the reruns, but the original run, you know? So can't believe it, but it really inspired me when I saw Lieutenant Uhura, who was African-American communications officer, who was an officer on the bridge. She was a lieutenant, which is the equivalent of a captain in the Army. And that was unheard of. That was the first time it broke every kind of record. Mr. Spock was a science officer. I thought he was really cool. So I liked science and I liked people and helping people. So I figured, you know, medical medicine was a field and sciences that would allow me to kind of reach both of those goals. And so that's kind of what drove me to pursue a career in medical. But I gotta tell you, Abby, it was not an easy thing for me because I was getting in my own way a lot of the time because there were others that said, you know, it's hard, you can't do that. And I would listen to them until, you know, you have your parents who say you can do anything, but you always say, well, your parents, they have to be encouraging, right? Because they love you and of course, they're gonna tell you you can do anything. But so finally, my mom was like, why do you listen to people? You know, your peers are telling you this, they're people in your class that are saying, it's hard, you probably won't be able to do it. And they might even done it themselves. And so, you know, you have to not let the detractors or the naysayers keep you from achieving goals. And so that was one where that was another lesson I learned is that I had to, you know, to kind of keep the naysayers at bay because there's always those that are out there that think, well, you know, you probably got to West Point because you're a minority. And so you probably aren't really that qualified. They don't know anything about you, but it's the assumption that some people can make. And, you know, sometimes you take that on yourself when you hear it all around you all the time, which is kind of, you know, what you were talking about at the beginning, you know, that's kind of one of the things of systemic racism is that, you know, you start to sometimes as the person that's been discriminated against, to kind of taken on that, well, maybe they are right if some people are saying it, maybe they are right. And that's, I think, a really damaging, you know, part of that. It's a very sort of damaging thing to actually take these things in mentally and to internalize them. And this point you've just raised, which is a very, I think, critical point, which all minorities face, the assumption whether it's at West Point or at other universities, which are not military universities, the assumption that what minorities achieve, they achieve not because of their intelligence, their abilities or their character, but their achievements are as a result of their race or their gender. And how did you cope with this? And how did you deal with this at West Point? And did you have instances of this in your career when you were being promoted and moving up the ranks where this is being assumed or people are saying openly, you got where you are because of your race or your gender? Yeah, and that's one where, you know, at every level, you have those detractors that will say that. And it's kind of like almost a, you know, it's a charged way of just deflating you completely when you're trying to have a discussion or you're trying to say something or you're happy about, you know, achieving something. And then all it takes is one person saying, well, you know, you just got there because of what you look like or who you are. And, you know, and you wanna just scream, but look at my record, look at what I've, you know, I've worked hard to get here and they can just dismiss your whole, you know, your whole list of credentials in just one word. And the people who say it sometimes maybe are not even as accomplished as you are. Not that anyone's better than anyone else, but, you know, you've done things that they've not. And yet still they can claim, okay, you got it and I didn't because of what you look like. And so, and it did happen to me. It was one where when I got promoted to major in a, it's called below the zone. So in the military, you are promoted, you're considered for promotion in blocks. So if you were a captain that was promoted this year and this year, then you're considered. Sometimes they'll actually look what's called below the zone in one year before you're actually ready. If you've done things that are just really outstanding, then sometimes you get promoted early. And so to major I was promoted early. And I remember my, and I call, I call him a friend because he still is a friend to this day that he said, well, you know, you know, not it's just because you're a black female, that's two quotas. That's two blocks. And I was just like, you know, and so finally I just asked him, I said, look, you know, why do you say that? I said, here's my record. Take a look at it. Cause, you know, back in the day before everything was on, you know, digital, we used to have binders with all of our certificates and all of our, you know, officer evaluation reports which are OERs that we call that we get on things. And I said, okay, just look at my officer record brief and your record brief has all the things you've done. So a graduate from West Point, if you just take my name and my picture off, a West Point graduate GW medical school, I've been to airborne school, I hadn't gone to aerosol there, but airborne school, I was a distinguished undergraduate with my flight surgeon course, you know, I had all these things. I had a combat medical badge which no one in my year group had because very few of us went to Desert Shield, Desert Storm. And so I said, if you just looked at this record, show me anyone male female black or white that has this and the good write ups from my superior officers. And he actually apologized. I said, hey, I apologize. I never thought about that. And I said, you know, it won't say his name. I goes, you know, you know me, we share an office. And he goes, yeah, you're usually the first one in and the last one to leave. And you know, so he's like, and he knew it, but he just, you know, it just wouldn't allow himself to think that it just kind of came out. And he mentions this, hey, where I grew up, my parents use the N word all the time. I mean, so that's how I grew up that, you know, lazy, they don't, you know, they always, you know, wanted something given to them for nothing and you know, won't get up and work for themselves and all. And so that's kind of what he heard growing up. But the way I handle it, so he asked how to handle it, I could have said, hey, that's a racist remark. That's a sexist remark. And that would have just shut down the conversation. But I was willing to engage and he was willing to engage and listen and actually, you know, changed his mind. And so it kind of, you know, so I think the lesson there is we can't get defensive, even though it's annoying. Why should we have to be? And I hear a lot of my black friends said, why do I have to inform? And every time I turn around, it's like, well, you need to inform. Why? It's the information's out there. And I said, well, yeah, you can look at it that way because it is frustrating because we've been trying to inform for 400 years, but keep going, just keep informing. And so, and we're friends to this day and he knows that sometimes he'd come up with something and we were talking, you know, my husband and I and him, this was many years ago about set-asides for minority business, small businesses. And he goes, well, you know, the quality is not good. He goes, I said, what's your basis for that? Because it's something that just pops out sometimes. I'm like, dude, the things that come out of your mouth sometimes you think about what she said, what is the basis of it? And he can't answer it. And then, you know, so he knows he's gonna get, you know, scuffed up a bit but he's willing to say it. I know there were people who were thinking that, that wouldn't say it to me. They would say it amongst themselves. Yeah, she, you know, she got promoted because she's a black female, what do you expect, you know? But he was actually had the, you know, courage to say it to me. And I think we need to have those dialogues and be willing to put our defensive down just a minute because that would have been easy for me to flare up and say, you know, but just kind of put your defenses down and try to have a conversation if a person is willing. I think that's a great example of what we can do on an individual basis when we're faced with what is clearly ignorance and prejudice. Is there something else, other things say that institutions can do to help to educate people who have those views about minorities and their lack of capacity and their lack of talents which could help to educate people more broadly? I do. I think there are quite a few things. There's been a lot of documentaries, thankfully, this horrific, you know, Abby, I've not even watched the whole video of George Floyd's murder because I couldn't, but the fact that that was actually captured where others could see it because if I had told you that you would have not believed me, right? You would have thought I was exaggerating. You would say, okay, yeah. I would have believed you because I've experienced similar things. The public would sometimes say, well, that doesn't happen. Come on, you know, you're exaggerating, okay? Eight minutes, okay, it was probably like 30 seconds. So you're gonna say eight minutes just because it sounds more dramatic. You know, there may be people out there because no one would believe that that could actually happen to another human being. Like you said, if it's not someone who's experienced things like that, the traffic stops, no one would believe it. And so I think educating people now with the photo phones and the video phones, there are so many things out there now that I think people have to believe it. And I think the documentaries, I think we may have talked about one, you know, the 13th, the Netflix documentary about, came out a couple of years ago about mass incarceration because another question, why are so many black men in jail? Well, you know, go back and look at some of the things that were set up to make it easier to put black people in jail. And there are a lot of black men in jail that have never done anything, right? And that's, everyone in jail says, I never did anything, but they're actually finding that people are arrested and are, you know, hey, you wanna get out of here, just go ahead and plea out. Plead guilty and, you know, you only get this much time or, you know, now are there criminals? Of course, there are criminals of all kinds. But I think when you see that documentary to say, this was something that was done systematically starting right after the emancipation proclamation occurred that put a whole group of people at a disadvantage for life, you know, being able to, you know, get money to start a business, even if you have the credit rating, right? To be able to get a job after you've gone to a school, you know, put two resumes together of two individuals that graduated from an Ivy League school from the same, you know, background as far as the academic, you know, field of study, same GPA, you know, someone that has a quote black sounding name or happens to be a black person will get callbacks for jobs half as many times as their white counterpart from the exact same school. These are things that happen. And so it's not because people are lazy or they're not trying, you know, you can't generalize, but you know, cause there may be some that are, of course, but for the majority of people are out there trying their best. And it's just one where there's just been entrenched, you know, not only beliefs, but teaching and even the younger kids are taught by their families and the opportunities just aren't there. You talked about the younger kids and traffic stops. I know you have a son, but you have a son and a daughter and well, he's no longer a younger kid, but he's also been stopped like practically all black male as I know. Do you wanna talk about that and what happened because he's following in your footsteps as well? I can't, can you hear me okay, Abby? I can hear you, I can hear you okay. Okay, yeah, and so my son, who was a West Point cadet at the time, senior year over Christmas break was driving too fast, so he was speeding, but he ended up getting arrested, not just a ticket and he's had no prior, you know, anything, no arrests, nothing. And it was actually coming from getting a haircut to go back to school over after Christmas break. And so it's one of those things where, you know, and I won't go into the full details of it, just as a harrowing experience as a parent, where he, you know, that was kind of the culmination of him being stopped probably about six or seven times that I know of. In fact, my daughter mentioned mom, it's more times, but he just doesn't wanna tell you. Like he was stopped because someone wanted to know where he was going, you know, where are you going in Washington, D.C., right? He was, sorry about that, but I can hear the noise in the background. You know, where he was driving to, he wasn't speeding, he didn't miss a stop sign, he was in a neighborhood in D.C. outside of Fort McNair, which is where I lived at the time on the military base. And literally, I mean, they would lean in the car, you know, as if to see if they could smell something or see something, you know, again, ask him where he was going and he's like, well, I'm going to my parents at Fort McNair and they would actually follow him to make sure that he was going there because I guess there was, you know, the area right outside was, you know, had some, you know, maybe criminal activity, but he was just trying to come home. And literally they would sit and wait because, you know, if he just said that to lie to them and, you know, the gate guard would turn around, they wouldn't have let him on post. So he said this police would sit there and wait. And then when he saw him go through the gate, then he drove on because I'm sure if he got turned around, he would have really been in trouble if he just said, I'm going there and then just pulls into the gate to get away from the police. But, you know, it's just all of this presumption of guilt. And even when he was arrested, he said, you know, the lawyer afterwards said, well, you know, you didn't have to get out of the car and they searched his car. And she said, well, you know, you didn't have to let him search your car. And he says, what am I supposed to do? And he says, get out of the car. Am I supposed to say no to the policeman who has a gun? Even if it is my right, you know, I'm afraid to do that. And I didn't have anything in the car and he said, what do you have in there? And he said, you're welcome to look. So clearly he waved his right, but he wanted to make sure, hey, maybe if he looks and sees that I don't have anything there, then he'll let me go. But then he made a comment, well, you might have a warrant up for your arrest in another state. And he said, sir, I'm a cadet at West Point. I can't have wards out or I wouldn't be there. And he goes, here's my ID card. Because we'll see about that. And, you know, for speeding. And it was, and again, it wasn't under the influence. Didn't have anything in the car. Didn't, you know, wasn't, you know, reckless. He was just going too fast, which again, it's wrong, but yikes, could have ended very badly for him. And, you know, when you tell people about that, when I tell them about the seven times, it was, you know, it's again, they're incredulous. They're like, surely it hadn't been seven times. I mean, he got pulled over once because they thought that he had his high beams on. And he was trying to tell, no, officer, this isn't, you know, these are just the regular, and he goes, in fact, when you pull me over, I haven't, you know, touched anything. And you can look in my dashboard and it doesn't, you know, the high beam signal's not on. And he's, well, you probably just changed it when I drove up and he's like, you know, and so it's kind of scary because you don't know if you're gonna get a message that, you know, hey mom, come get me. But the one when he was arrested and sat, I sat in the precinct for literally it was about six hours while they processed him. And they mentioned, okay, yeah, because they have to check every single state to see if they're, if he's wanted. And I'm like, oh my, so. You know, Nadia, how did this make you feel as a mother and as a general, because this is your son, but you were in Fort McNair as a general, how did you make you feel? Well, it wasn't the military police that were, that were on post, because they knew who he was, he had the ID. This was the police outside the gate. You know, as a mother, it just scared me to death because you hear about, you know, what if, what if he had, you know, they became, they were scared of him or something. And if you saw my son, I mean, he's tall, he's six three, but he's like 185 pounds, he's like a skinny guy. He's not scary looking, but you know, they don't care. They don't know, they just see a black male and then they think, okay, this is a guy that might be doing something that might, you know, lead to trouble. And as a mom, it just makes me feel like I just, it just scares me to death because literally, so about two months ago, he was on his way from Fort sale, Oklahoma out to his assignment in Washington state. And he actually was pulled over on his drive over there. And I told him, I said, make sure when you get pulled over, put your military ID on top of your driver's license and registration. So at least if they see that you're a soldier, they might, you know, take some slack on you. And sure enough, you know, when you got pulled over and the question was, okay, I see Maryland tags, you're far away from home, where are you going? You know, I didn't realize that you had to announce where you're going when you're driving across country, but, you know, so he told him and he saw his license plate, he saw his military ID. And that's the only thing I think that saved him is that, okay, the guy said, oh, okay, Fort, you know, you're in the Army, you know, you're coming for Fort sale, oh yeah, I was stationed there once before. And then they had a bond there with the military service and then you let him go. But- I'd like to come back to your military experience because you've been a trailblazer in so many ways. And we've just had the 30th anniversary of Operation Desert Storm, Desert Shield and you were deployed out there. What was that experience like? Well, that was probably one of the best experiences I ever had because, you know, from the standpoint of being accepted for my skills and just also just being in the military, I really, you know, enjoy, you know, being in the field, you know, being in those operational units with soldiers because that's when you're, I love my job in the hospital as well, but when you're out actually out there in the field to take care of soldiers who make it injured or wounded, you know, that's kind of what I was trained for. And so when I showed up to Desert Shield, Desert Storm, there was controversy because, you know, women were not allowed to serve at the battalion level, meaning, you know, kind of close to the front lines because of the combat exclusion rule. But the, you know, when they had to send medical personnel down to the battalions from the brigade, which I was stationed at the higher level, there was controversy, okay, we've got a female doctor, we can't let her go or the female medics. And there was a leader who took the initiative and said, look, we don't have time to go back and requisition other medics. There are no male medics or female medics. You get these or none at all. And so two of the battalions were like, okay, I guess, but the battalion I was with, the battalion commander asked one question, he goes, can you fix broke soldiers? And I said, yes, sir, I can. And he goes, we're glad to have you. It wasn't, where did you go to school? Are you qualified? You know, he assumed he, I had instant credibility as a, you know, as a captain at the time, as a medical corps officer, as a physician. He didn't say, you know, what kind of grades did you get? Where'd you go? He just said, hey, you're a doctor in the army. I trust that you know what you're doing and you know what to do in a pinch if our soldiers, if my soldiers get injured. And that was really a, I think that experience kept me in the military longer than, you know, or that was early on in my career. So that put the foundation of keeping me actually longer, I think, that I would have stayed if I felt like it wasn't a welcoming organization. That's very interesting because it connects with something you said earlier on about West Point, that the leadership at West Point had a significant impact in creating the kind of supportive environment, generally supportive, which you had at West Point. And here the decision of a battalion commander in the field, recognizing first and foremost that you're a qualified physician who could actually fix broken soldiers underlines this importance of leadership. From your experience and you, a leader yourself, what do you think of the effective qualities of leadership and what does it take to bring about greater diversity and inclusion and the importance of leadership in this area? Yeah, Abby, I think it's very important, you know, leadership, leaders set the tone of their organization. If you see any, I think, failures of units, and I don't mean, you know, when they tried hard and they just didn't reach the objective, but moral or ethical failures in a unit when something goes really wrong, you know, on a larger scale, you got to look at the, you have to look at the leadership. Now you might have like, again, one or two soldiers that make mistakes or do bad things, but if you have a culture in your organization where rules don't matter, well, we can kind of bend things here, we'll just look the other way. If you have a culture like that, that spells trouble. And usually it means that the leadership is tolerating that because you can't not know about it if it's happening at that level or if it's mirrored or if it's modeled by the leader. And so I think it's the same way with, you know, diversity and inclusion. You have to have leaders that are willing to take bold action. When they see something that's not right, they'll say it. I gave the example of when I was with the, with the First Armored Division, you know, fast forward, I was a Lieutenant Colonel. And there was the division commander there who we had a public affairs officer who they were doing a model or prototype of a magazine for First Armored Division called Old Iron Sides. And so we were at the staff meeting. So it was the entire staff, headquarter staff, the PAO who happened to be Black said, sir, here's the new one and you pass it to everyone. So as our commander, you know, two-star general flipped through it, he looked at it and we all thought it was great. And so he goes, what's wrong with this? And the PAO was mortified because he was like, oh my gosh, is there a typo in there? Did I mislabel something? You know, what's wrong? Is it, oh my, is it backwards? I mean, he was thinking all these things. And he looked at me and he says, it's too white. And we all, this was in 1990, okay? So that's 20 years ago that we were talking and he's white himself. So, and the PAO is Black, the Public Affairs Officer. And he said, it's too white. And he goes, look at this. He goes, iron soldiers need to see themselves. And he could tell you how many African Americans, how many Hispanic, well, it was called Hispanic back then or Latinx, how many Asians, how many women, he knew what his organization was comprised of. And that was before, I think again, I mean, that's 1990. And 20 years ago, that really wasn't a focus. It always has been important, but not the focus. And for him to say that, and he said, go back and give me some more. And he knew that we don't have to put actors, we don't have to find black actors to put on a uniform and pretend they're soldiers. We actually had them doing their jobs that they could have used. And so, and the thing that it taught me is I looked at the magazine and I didn't see a problem with it. It was great, right? Because it had tanks doing firing missions. And you see the big tanks with the fire coming out at the end. It was cool. We liked it. It was like, yeah, you saw guys in the motor pool. You saw the, you know, you saw the field artillery guys with the cannons and stuff. And so all these great pictures, we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I went back and looked, it was all white males. They're very, I don't think there were any women in there or any minorities. And it wasn't intentional, right? It wasn't intentional because these were all First Armored Division soldiers too. And it taught me, it's like, wow, as an African-American woman, I didn't see a problem with it because I guess you're just so used to not being part of it, you just take it for what it is. But it takes a leader to say, soldiers need to see themselves, all of our soldiers. I'm responsible for all our iron soldiers. Go back and do it. And do give me another one. And the next ones were, you know, people doing it. Signal Corps, you know, a lot of African-Americans guys, you know, putting wire down. That's the old days when they put wire down, right? And the signal, you know, they had them doing all these things that are important for the success of the mission. And that's what he, you know, it was General Casey was his name. That's what he knew. He said, people are committed to the organization if they feel they're part of it. And I tell you what, I felt, that's another job that really made me feel like I was part of the team. I was an iron soldier. My name was Iron Doc because everything with First Armored Division was iron this, iron majors, iron this. So I was Iron Doc. So that was my nickname. I loved it. So they gave me a nickname. I was part of the team. And, you know, and that's what it takes for a leader to do. You have to, so if he hadn't said anything, no one would have thought anything of it, right? The magazine would have gone out. Hey, look at, this is great. Glossy photos, perfect. Look at him doing all these, you know, guns blazing. Oh, wow. But he knew as a leader, you have to look deeper. And you have to make the effort to say, what, you know, is this the best that we can do to represent all of our folks? Because we need all the folks to show up and be part of the team and feel like they're part of the team. You'll give 110% percent. You'll give 150% percent. If you know that you are cared about as a person and who you are, that you're valued. Not that you're just there because they have to fill a hole, right? So that's where I think leadership is. And that was an example to me. And I actually made, you know, I would always say, you know, all my medical stuff, hey, we need to get, and it wasn't just race diversity, like in the Army Medical Department, we have veterinarians, very small number. But they take care of military working dogs and they also do food safety. They have a lot of preventive health type of missions in the military. So when we all just had doctors and nurses, and you know, that's all who are. But what about the dentists, right? What about the administrators? What about the radiology techs? What about the pharmacists? What about the medibac pilots that you're also part of our team? What about our veterinarians? And they used to call me up and say, man, we saw the picture and I made them put, make sure you know it's a veterinarian. So they usually were doing like examining a military working dog on the pictures that we would put out. And so they always loved it because they're like, man, you always, you know, have your vets in there. You always make sure you don't forget us. And they're very again, very small branch, but they're important to our team. And we used to have this collage and I would look to see it, I would make sure we had a reservist. We had to make sure that they could see the patch, that it was a reserve or national guard because we are multi-component. It wasn't just active duty. And you know, I would wear them out because they're like, man, we have to have, but people need to see themselves and leaders need to make the effort. You can't just grab something and put it out there. You have to be thoughtful of what this represents if it's representing your organization. I'll stop adding because I'll keep going. No, this is fascinating. You say on that point that people need to see themselves and they need to see themselves at all levels in an organization. The army has been on the forefront and done better than many other sectors of American life in bringing about diversity of the force, but the leadership of the army is not as diverse as the force itself. So given what you've said about the importance of leadership and the need for people to see themselves reflected, particularly in the leadership, what can the army do to have better representation in a more diverse leadership? Well, first, why is this the case that the leadership is not as diverse as the force itself and what can the army do to bring about a greater diversity of its leadership? Abby, it's a constant effort. And one of the hopes that I have with what's happening now with a awakening of society on the racial injustice, I hope it doesn't become like one of those 90 day news cycles where things start to peter out. And I'm hopeful that it's not because I think it's got the momentum. And I think that's an example where the army, I think you can never take your foot off the gas because, and they won't even admit, they may have taken their foot off the gas because we used to have, I mean, there were at one time, three African-American four-star generals. You had General Vi, General Brooks and General Austin, all four, that were all, you know, all four stars. We had multiple three stars. But then as people retired, I mean, there are, you know, I retired, Gwen Bingham retired because the other, she was the second African-American three-star female. Now there are no African-American three-star females. There's one two star because, you know, once we retire, you can't say success, mission complete because it's a constant, constant thing. We have one African-American four-star now, General Garrett. And if he retires, you know, yes, there's some now that they're bringing up through the ranks, but the army is looking at it. They realize, hey, we haven't been as consistent in ensuring, taking these bold actions to making sure. And again, it's not putting someone up there who doesn't belong there. It's making sure that you have those opportunities and not like General Casey. They'll say, okay, yeah, we'll pick this, this, this and this guy. And if there are 30 people being considered for three jobs, you know, it's not a percentage. Okay, well, that's only, you know, 10%. So, you know, we don't need to have one black person there's only two, you know what I'm saying, we only have three blacks out of the 30, you know, just by sheer, you know, you know, chance, there's a chance that none of them will be selected. But if everyone's qualified, everyone, and at that level, when you're picking people for two and three-star General, they usually, it's very a thin line of who's better than who and this and that and the other. So sometimes you have to be deliberate in making sure because if that happens every time, there's only three, you know, and only one gets picked. Okay, three out of 30, that's not even 10%. But if you do that every time, right, we will never have people that are gonna be looking like the folks that they come from. So you have to be deliberate. And it's not giving something that they don't deserve. It's being more deliberate when you're choosing people for positions, like when I was selected, there were, you know, literally for Surgeon General by law, there's a law that says, okay, all colonels within this many years are eligible to be considered and actually is being promoted to one star, you know, there's a date. There were 1,000 colonels that were eligible to be selected to be a one-star general in the Army Medical Department when I was picked. So how do you, okay, there's 1,000, okay, let's say 500 of them didn't have all the, you know, senior service college. When you say, okay, there's maybe 300 that are gonna be able to be picked for one position. You know, it's a wash, who do you pick? Sometimes you have to be strategic in saying, we need to have people representing other groups. So let's pick this person this time. You know, just as good as any other, why not, you know, why not me? And that's the question I used to ask, well, gosh, why me? And it's one of my mentors said, well, why not you? And hopefully I did a fairly decent job. I think anyone could have done a decent job, but in that group of folks, but sometimes you have to pick people so you can further the greater goals of your organization. And I think that's what, you know, that's what the Army, so now the Army, there's been several, and in fact, I was on one of the panels where the AUSA, the Association of the U.S. Army talked to the senior leaders, some retired general officers, talked to, you know, some senior enlisted spouses. So they actually are really seeing how can we, how can we do this? How can we make sure that we don't drop the ball again? And it starts at the captain level, because again, if they don't have those experiences like I had where I felt like I was part of the team, they're talented young men and women, they can go other places. So why stay in an organization if you don't feel that you're valued or that you don't feel that you have, you know, a chance to be at the top? So they're actually looking at that, what can we do better to ensure that we've got the right mix and, you know, combat arms, because most of the general officers come out of combat arms, infantry armor. A lot of the African-Americans, you know, younger soldiers go into combat service support. And so they may not have as, you know, robust because they don't go in those because they may not see themselves having a, you know, long-term future. It's, again, it goes back to the, it starts early because you have to have the individuals in the pipeline in order to get the in-state that you want. We're in the midst of this COVID, really tragic COVID-19 pandemic, which has really upended all our lives and changed how we interact with one another. And the COVID-19 pandemic is having such a disproportionate effect on minority communities. As a physician, what sort of interventions do you think are needed at this point? And also are there lessons that we can learn from the military experience, which could usefully be applied to the civilian response to COVID-19? I think there's so quite a few things to say about that. So first, the military piece or the, I'll start with the access to care piece. And I think the advantage that I've had and that my family has had is that as a soldier, not a black soldier, white soldier, female soldier, as a soldier, I have access to outstanding healthcare, phenomenal healthcare, having been the surgeon general, I can tell you, it's the greatest healthcare on the planet. But because I can go to the hospitals just like the rest of the soldiers, there's a process that we are all a part of. And so when you look at the ability for if I'm stationed at Port Seal, Oklahoma, if I'm black or white, it doesn't matter what I am, I can go to the hospital there, the clinic there, or if they don't have it, something on post, they send me downtown, I get seen by the local healthcare facility. It's all under the tri-care plan for our soldiers. So we benefited from kind of, that's an example. It didn't matter where we were from, just because of the fact that we're soldiers, we had access to this phenomenal healthcare system. So I think that lessons to be learned is to have better access because there are healthcare deserts in some of our communities. There are some, and right here, I live in the DC area, right in the shadow of the Capitol building, there are areas where people don't have sufficient healthcare coverage, don't have sufficient grocery stores so they can get healthy foods to stay healthy. I mean, there are so many things that impact health and so many disparities, I think that the COVID crisis is uncovering is the impact is because of lack of access and then more chronic diseases. Well, why do you have chronic diseases? How do they become chronic? Because you couldn't take care of them when they were acute. And so most African-Americans have a lot of hypertension, diabetes, because first they can't, if you're in an underserved area and you don't have the means, you don't have the way to eat healthy foods and you don't have access to go to the hospital or a doctor to get your preventive care or your medications. So yes, you've got the chronic disease that puts you at risk for infectious diseases and things that come along. So I think what we can learn is that we need to find a better way to have better access to care for individuals in all communities. And I think that's one where hopefully, hopefully we'll see in the future as we're trying to come out of the other side of this. Again, that's an institutional racism. And even those who can get care, I mean, I shared with some team, I studied that they did about, African-Americans getting less pain medication for the same illness or injury as their white counterparts because there's just a perception of healthcare providers that they're either over and they did actually like a long bone fracture. So if you break your femur, your bone, you can't hide that, right? The x-ray can show bone broken, you know? Like a headache, you can say I have a headache and it's like, well, how do you characterize headache if there's nothing that they can see or back pain? Yeah. If someone comes in for a fracture, if you're black, you get less pain medicine than a white person has the same type of injury. Kids, acute appendicitis, that's another thing. Black kids get less pain relief than white counterparts, just because there's this perception. And if you interview, they interviewed some of the students, they thought that, well, black people have a higher tolerance to pain. What? So we have a, and again, it goes back to your initial comment, Abby, about the systemic, you know, just the long-term ideas. And this isn't professional. These are in scientific, you know, science-oriented professions that have these thoughts or they're drug-seeking behavior because they learn, oh, they're only here because they want drugs. They're only here because they, you know, it's terrible. We have to, there's so many ways and so many areas we have to address to get after people wanting to get healthcare. And then the last thing is, is there's a suspicion amongst the black community. If you remember the, you know, the Tuskegee experiments, you know, when people say, why do I want to go there? And of course, why do you think people are suspicious of people saying, get this vaccine? Here, let me give you this shot. You know, it'll make you feel better. What is it? You know, are you experimenting on me? So there's this trust issue. There's this misperception issue on, you know, doctors and students about patients. And it's just really sad. There's so many things that we have to unpack and address to get after this. And hopefully this is a time that we'll, we have a dialogue that can address these things one by one because it's not one fix, right? And the dialogue we've been having now in the country and around the world about race has largely been prompted by the Black Lives Matter movement. And we've seen the Black Lives Matter movement explode around the world. What has been the impact on you personally? I think for me, it's been, it gives me hope and it gives me, you know, and I'm just crossing my fingers that this doesn't become a, you know, like 90 days and then, okay, now we're going to, you know, move on to the next thing, you know, I hope it's sustained and we work on it. So that's what it's gotten, you know, for me, I've seen it and it's not just in the U.S., like you said, it's all over the world. When you see people from predominantly white countries with Black Lives Matter t-shirts on, it really gives you hope and I don't think it's just, and people can be cynical, right? People can be say, oh, they're just doing that because it's something cool that they want to be a part of. Well, maybe it is, but I like to think that people are saying, hey, we really need to look at this. Hey, this is really not good and we need to really address it. And I think it's kind of like one of those things where you want to say finally people are seeing that this is something that we have to address. And so I'm hopeful that people, if they take the opportunity to learn, you know, the fact that there's an acknowledgement is really, you know, heartening because before it's kind of like it's all in your head or it's kind of like, why don't you people just get over it? You know, you hear that. Slavery was 400 years ago. I didn't have anything to do with it. Just get over it. Well, we'd like to. We really would if there were things that were, you know, if we had the same opportunities, if we could, you know, buy bright property in areas that aren't red-lined, if we could get accepted to jobs just like our white counterparts with the same credentials, if we could do all these different things that a lot of people are afforded, if we can address the mass incarceration issue, I think that would be, you know, we would be able to get over it. And so hopefully I think this is a time that we can actually start getting after it. Well, talking about slow development to bring minorities into mainstream and into positions and at the same time talking about hope, Vice President Joe Biden has selected Senator Kamala Harris as his running mate and she's the first African-American woman, the first Asian-American woman to be on a presidential ticket. As a person yourself, a leader who's broken barriers, how do you feel and what do you think this says about America and its future? I think it's very positive. I was so excited to see, similar to when President Obama was elected, whether whatever your politics are, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, just the fact that, you know, you can think of in this country, a black person can be the president of the United States and get reelected. And so that was, it's the same thing with Senator Harris, well, Vice President nominee Harris now. She's, I think an inspiration to all of us because, again, she's competent, you know, she's tough and we just needed them. And I say that in a positive way because as, you know, they always say as a prosecutor, you have to be tough and you have to have thick skin and I'm glad because I know they're gonna come after her from all sectors they already have. You can hear just the, you know, the ugly, you know, things that are being said. And, you know, I just hope she can stay tough and just keep going because, you know, she is an inspiration to a lot of people, myself included. So that's, I wish her well. Well, we have many students who are joining us and tuning into this conversation in addition, of course, to alumni and friends of Tufts and Fletcher. Do you have any sort of message that you would give to them at this point? I would. I would say, you know, young people are our future. I mean, that's who's going to be around, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now, running the world. And it's, you know, it's up to our youth to kind of get us out of this as well as our, the people that are running things now. And what can you do? A lot of people say, what can I do? What can one person do? Well, one person can do a lot. You can have a conversation. You can look at yourselves and say, okay, where, you know, where am I on this issue? How do I feel about this? And then what can I literally do to make things better, especially when we talk about social justice, racial injustice, what can I do? Are things that I can learn? Don't be defensive on either side because you can be and you have, you maybe say I have the right to be, but then we will never get anywhere. If I say I'm not a racist, that doesn't help. And I'm not saying that people are racist, but a lot of times, you know, people are like, well, I can't say I'm not a racist because then I get attacked. If I say I am a racist and people say I knew it all the time. So there's a lot of people that are just uncomfortable. They don't know what to say. I think on all sides, we have to drop our defenses and be willing to have the conversation. Don't be slow to be offended if people are really coming from a place of saying, okay, how do I, you know, I don't know if it's right to call you even now, is it black, is it African-American? Is it Hispanic? Is it Latinx? If I say the wrong thing, someone made a comment, said Oriental ones and someone jumped on them and said it's not, we don't use that word anymore. It's like, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to eat. You know, we have to be willing to say, okay, if people are coming from a place where they're trying to learn and trying to get better, let's give them, you know, let's help them out here to see if we can get them into the right place. And so I would just say to the young folks, you know, having the dialogues, learning as much as you can and make a difference and make a statement. If you see something in the military, we always have this, if you see something, say something, that's what we tell our soldiers when we're, you know, if you see something, say something. Don't be afraid, because it's gonna be, you're inheriting the world that you're gonna be living in for good or bad. So keep, you know, study hard, stay safe, wear your masks, you're outside, you know. But... Well, Nadja West, thank you so much for being on Global Perspectives. It's a pleasure to have you. And thank you very much indeed. Well, thanks so much for having me. It was great talking to you. It really was. Take care now. Take care.