 All right, everybody, have a seat, please. Our next talk is something that is essential to all of us. It's time to talk about how to future-proof our open-source ecosystem and keep this community thriving. And with us, we have just the person for it. She is a culture and recruitment strategist and head of the CloudFest hackathon and major open-source advocate. So give a big warm welcome to Carol Olinger. Thank you so much, Lisa. Go ahead. Thank you for being here. And yeah, Lisa already introduced me quite well, so everything's there. I'm the culture and recruitment strategist at JELF, also the head of CloudFest hackathon. And I consider myself an advocate for diversity, inclusion, and positive mental health in tech. Not only this community, a few more, but this is particularly dear to my heart. And I am originally from the small neighboring country Luxembourg, but for nine years I'm living in this area of Germany, the beautiful Eiffel. Fun fact, it's only like 20 minutes drive from here, so I feel in a way that I'm welcoming you all in my extended backyard. Today, we're diving deep into the WordPress ecosystem. And while there are more actors a part of this, let's focus now on the two main actors that stand out when we are talking about the WordPress open-source project, the community, and the business world. While both are integral to the WordPress ecosystem, they often operate in parallel with very minimal overlap, and sometimes there even is a noticeable gap. But what if that gap is more than just a missed opportunity? What if bridging both worlds would be the key for a more sustainable future for WordPress? I believe this is what we need to start imagining a holistic and flourishing future for WordPress, equal partners, striving for collaborative growth. And our journey today will focus on understanding the dynamics of these two actors and how we as a community can play a role in connecting them and bridging existing gaps for the continued growth and sustainability of WordPress. So let's start with the WordPress community involvement. What is so appealing about WordPress that so many of us start contributing as volunteers to the project? Most certainly the community itself, right? What are known and unknown costs of contribution connected here? Then we will analyze possible counter value for contributions with the goal to find a better balance. And last but not least, let's raise awareness for the unequal playing field in our community. All right, let's take a trip down memory lane. In 2016, my husband invited me to this thing called WordCamp Europe. For those unfamiliar, it is the biggest WordPress conference. Somebody knows the story already. It is the biggest WordPress conference in the world, one of three so-called WordPress flagship events. Now picture this. I had no clue about what WordPress was at the time. And the idea of being this non-technical woman heading into a swarm of 2,000 tech nerds, not really compelling, it felt like a scene straight out of the series, the Big Bang Theory, with me playing the role of Penny. To be honest, I was more intrigued by the trip to Vienna itself than to the conference. And yeah, the thought of being this beautiful city, like amazing weather, having some shopping, signed me up for that. And I promised myself, there's no way I'm going to step foot into that conference when you. Well, that didn't go according to my plans. The very evening I arrived, I was already making friends in the official event hotel, made dinner plans for the next day, made Facebook connections. I even signed up to this platform formerly known as Twitter, because apparently that is where the WordPress community was on. So the people I met, honestly, some of the most open and inspirational souls I've ever encountered in my life. And as you've probably already guessed, that's when the community bug bit me. I was all in. And I began attending more WordCams, started volunteering, speaking, organizing some of them myself, and by 2017, I was fully immersed in the WordPress community and the business world. So that's what the WordPress community feels like to more or less all of us. It's love at first sight. Why is that? The community is open to anyone, regardless of skill level or background, whether you're just starting out or you've been coding for years already. There's most likely a place here for you. With countless resources available, the community champions continuous learning and professional growth. From local meetups to global WordCams to numerous online spaces like Slack teams, social media, networking opportunities are literally everywhere. So it's pretty easy to connect and stay connected. The community is filled with individuals who are passionate about WordPress. But it's open source nature, its ability to democratize publishing. The passion that members feel often derives from the meaningful work they do. Because knowing that you're contributing to a platform that powers a huge percentage of the web can be incredibly fulfilling, right? The community has many inspiring people who serve as role models, sharing their success stories, and encouraging newer members to engage and to contribute. The passion and inspiration felt with the WordPress community not only draws people in, but also keeps them engaged. The emotional connection, the practical benefits of community volunteering, creating a powerful allure that is hard to resist the so-called community bug I mentioned earlier. But is that all there is? Or are we facing a double-edged sword here? While success stories can inspire and motivate, they can also create pressure and set unrealistic expectations. People feel not good enough, which can eventually lead to imposter syndrome. Who is familiar with the imposter syndrome in this room? Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's about what I thought. The sense of belonging and opportunities for engagement in the community are enormous, yet it is easy to get involved too deeply, often at the cost of personal time and work-life balance. The passion and dedication to contributing make and encourage people to go the extra mile towards the personal growth and success, but sometimes it pushes individuals too far, risking burnout and sidelining other life priorities like health. And then there's the open source nature of WordPress. It's a model that promotes collaboration, inclusivity and transparency. But the absence of direct financial rewards means many contribute without pay, challenging the sustainability of such contributions. And there is a striking imbalance. Primarily those who can or think they can afford to contribute are being heard. It's gonna be a lot of talking today. The longer you are part of the community, the more evident it becomes that this highly inspiring and addicting environment does have negative long-term effects on some of the community members. We witness stress, anxiety, burnout among certain tributaries and a lot of turnover in general. During WorldCampUS 2019 already, Alain Schleser, who is in this room as well, took an in-depth look at why such an uplifting and exciting environment can have the tremendous effects on some of its members. And on the side now, this is a very good example in the spirit of sustainable contribution that we don't always have to start from scratch. We can build upon the excellent work already done by others, provided we give proper credit where it's due. With that in mind, I will now share some key insights from Alain's lightning talk, which I recommend you to watch on WordPress TV at some point. Alain believes that the negative long-term effect can be traced back to a very simple root cause, cost. Everything we do comes with the cost attached. This isn't always financial cost. It can also be the combination of several different costs, like mental, emotional, or even social cost. He says the best way to cover costs in general is money. But in open source projects, a lot of people are not paid for their contributions and don't receive money for covering their cost. What contributors to WordPress usually tread instead is time. And unlike money, time is a limited and irreplaceable resource. When you invest excessive time in contributions, you are spending part of the time that should rather go into your family or self-care with sometimes devastating long-term effects. And then there are more types of cost you might have to pay as an open source contributor. Opportunity cost, for example. The value of the next best alternative that you give up when you are contributing to the project, so the income you could have earned instead, for example. Financial cost, sometimes you may need to invest in software, in hardware, or travel to be able to contribute effectively. The software is free, but that isn't necessarily true for what you want to achieve. Social cost, the potential consequences on social life and relationships due to time and emotional investment in contributions. Reputation cost, the risk of public failure or backlash which have implications on both your professional and personal reputation. Physical health may suffer due to extended hours, stress, burnout, lack of work-life balance. But contributing comes very often with this overlooked cost, mental health issues. We are often inspired by others, but it can also lead to a spiral of comparison. If you are an unpaid volunteer, contributor, raise hands, please. Quite a bunch. How many times did you caught yourself already thinking, others are doing so much, I need to keep up? Been there? This becomes even more challenging when you start comparing yourselves to those who are sponsored part-time or full-time. Those contributors are paid for their involvement, allowing them to do more. Sometimes this is public knowledge whose sponsor contributor is not, but sometimes we don't know. And yet it is very easy to forget about this and feel that you are falling short with what you're doing. Then there's also the helper's high phenomenon. There's a genuine euphoria in contributing, in helping others, in making a difference. It releases endorphins, it makes you feel good about yourself and your place in the community, but this very sensation can become addictive, pushing us far beyond our individual limits. That drive to keep up with others, combined with this euphoric helper's high, creates pressure, which can escalate into stress, anxiety and burnout, and even depression. While high community involvement brings many benefits, we must confront this other side of the coin. Over-involvement has real consequences, not just for our mental and physical well-being, but also for our relationships, our work, our professional and personal growth. I'd like to cite the wonderful Juliette Reinders-Folmer, a friend of mine and long-term WordPress core contributor, and here's what she shared just a few weeks back at WTN. Open source software is not free. It comes with a cost, with a huge cost. That being said, let's face the reality here. The WordPress open source project survives because people are burning out for it. It's crucial to remember that WordPress is not just code. It's built on real people with real emotions, real challenges and real limits. And the sustainability of open source should never come at the unsustainable lives of its contributors. Of course, WordPress and its community also offer cement value and opportunities to both its users and its contributors. And in our next segment, we'll dive deeper into the counter value for contributors and the unequal playing field. I love this slide so much. Yeah, there's even a little puppy. We are all different and unique individuals, and that's great. We bring a distinct set of motivations, desires and goals in this room and in the global WordPress community. When it comes to open source contributions, especially in a vibrant and diverse community like ours, the personal returns or counter value that contributors can widely defer. Do you, as a contributor to this open source project, know and truly understand your personal why? While the overarching goal could be to support and nurture the open source project, what else drives you? Let's start discovering and having open conversations about individual motivators. Yeah, just a few examples. They may not resonate with you, or you may feel, oh, this is all true for me. For example, recognition. We all want to be acknowledged for the work that we're doing, right? Having an impact, making a tangible difference on the web. Career opportunities, obviously. Community itself, like being a part of this community which provides a strong sense of belonging. Financial, obviously. Contributing can lead to potential partnerships. Knowing your why is a great place to start, but where can it lead towards? Regular introspection allows us to discover and reconnect with our intrinsic motivations. Without this clarity, we risk aimless effort. Human beings are designed to evolve. Our personal and professional landscapes change every day. We change, and that's great. Life would be pretty boring if we wouldn't. It's vital to acknowledge when your motivation for contribution changes, ensuring that what you do is aligning with your current goals. Regularly evaluate the outcome of what you're doing. Is this what you're doing, matching the intended goals? And adapt what you're doing, if that's not the case. Or in business terms, check the return on investment for your contribution. An open dialogue about individual motivation fosters understanding and collaboration. It helps building a more transparent and honest environment where everyone can experience a true and holistic sense of belonging. Here's what you should not do when contributing. Please, don't repeat the same actions every single day and expect a different outcome. Stop it. No matter what anyone out there told you, it makes no sense and it is really not sustainable. Instead, take a deep look into yourself, into your desires, and empower other folks to do the same so we can all become mindful contributors. Saying to yourself or to others, if you only tried long enough or maybe hard enough, not only creates unrealistic expectations, but also actively contributes to burnout. We must start prioritizing the well-being of our community instead of accepting that people are burning out for this project. The WordPress project praised for its inclusivity and global community still has many challenges of creating an equal playing field for all its contributors. Not everyone has the same chance to be heard. Here's an often referred to WordPress open source principle. Decisions are made by those who show up. Sounds good, right? But what if you can't show up? Consider contributors from challenging time zones, for example. They often miss out on real-time interactions due to odd hours. Likewise, parents juggling child care during important meetings or contributors having other duties, like their job. Other family members volunteering. They may not always get a chance to pitch in, even if they have very valuable insights to share. Think of those who don't speak English as a second or third language, like myself. They may have great ideas, but what if they struggle to articulate their thoughts in the best way in a foreign language? Especially in fast-paced real-time conversations, this makes it so much harder for them being heard. And this can be true for neurodivergent individuals, too. They often process and pass information very differently. This can lead to misunderstandings or them simply being overlooked, especially in formats that do not cater to their unique communication styles. Let's also face the reality that white men are still the most represented and visible part of the project. They simply get more attention while others might be more easily overlooked. And I've witnessed and experienced myself many times how the same idea can be valued very differently based on who shares it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one in this room having made this experience. This is why representation truly matters. It is not about pointing fingers. It is about realizing there is room to do better. And in theory, everyone should have an equal chance to contribute and benefit, but we are not there yet. And is this really the message we want to spread in terms of sustainable contribution? I believe we can do better as a community. And we should. Not to mention that besides, one would have to be very privileged to comply with this principle. It is definitely not how decisions are actually made in this project. I didn't ever say that. I already gave you a spoiler during the introduction to this session that while the WordPress project thrives, partly on the dedication of its community, there is an equally compelling actor to consider. The business world. Whether you are a community member, an active contributor to the project or a business owner, this next section is equally addressing all of your perspectives. Let's explore together how the lines between open source contribution and business goals are connected, revealing both opportunities and challenges in this dynamic ecosystem. As we shift our focus to the business world, we'll start with analyzing why companies might be hesitant to invest in the project. To understand this, we need to dive into return on investment, ROI, in open source. We'll continue with building a business case that aligns with the community's values. And we'll wrap up with some key takeaways from the business world paving the way forward. So why do businesses hesitate to contribute and invest into WordPress? First, there's unclear return on investment. Direct contributions to open source may not offer clear and measurable benefits. We're going to talk more about that one on the next slide. There are resource concerns allocating funds, money, human resources, the difficult term. Without direct financial gains can be seen as a direct loss, especially for smaller companies. Lack of control. In open source projects, businesses can't dictate or influence the project's direction. And potentially, the outcome is not aligning with their business goals. Companies may worry about exposing their work to public criticism and eventually facing legal implications. Cultural mismatch. The community-driven values of this open source project might simply not fit with every business's values or culture. And it's not a bad thing. It's just something to be aware of. So let's have a closer look into return on investment in open source. Businesses often seek immediate financial returns, looking for clear and measurable benefits. By doing so, they may risk missing out on the indirect and long-term benefits that open source contribution offers. From boosting reputation to fostering business partnerships and attracting top talent, the indirect advantages can significantly impact growth and brand presence. Many companies, especially investor-driven ones, focus on short-term gains over long-term benefits. While contributing might offer long-term advantages like goodwill, networking, and influence, eventually leading to sales and new partnerships, they are often harder to quantify and measure. But this is really, really, really important. The unmeasurable is not unvaluable. Not all benefits can be measured. Yet they significantly impact businesses. I learned this from my good friend, Marike van Racht, during her inspiring talk at WordCamp The Netherlands a few weeks back. I think there's people in this room who have been attending the session. Yeah, it was really good talk. I highly recommend you watch that on WordPress TV as well. And Marike also started a really cool mini-blog series called The Two Worlds of WordPress, which aligns perfectly with the session of today's topic. So is there a way to build a business case benefiting all parties involved? Small and big companies have lots of responsibilities, especially towards their employees and families. For them to support the community, they need a clear business case. Very often, the cost of potential investments are way above of what community volunteers might be aware of. I'm going to give you an example. A top tier sponsorship for a major WordCamp might cost between 50 and 100k today, is that about right? I think I remember 75k for WordCamp, you're over so. Then you add the cost for fancy booths like furniture, travels and accommodations for your crew because you have to bring people to be present and to represent your company. You have to pay for their work time. You also have to consider that they are not working on your product or on your service that you are actually offering. You're easily looking at a 200k investment. The ratio becomes even worse for smaller companies on lower tier sponsorships. This is not just about giving back anymore. There's a real cost here too. And I bet every business owner in this room would agree with me that they need to see a possible return on such an investment. For more companies to support open source, we need to show and highlight the potential lying in the WordPress community. Yes, the software is theoretically free, but community is knowledge that's priceless. It's worth being on the lookout to showcase that invaluable knowledge and then also starting to actively embrace the opportunities for creating potential win-win situations instead of looking away because we don't talk about money, right? It's essential to then create open and safe spaces where we can transparently discuss and drive such opportunities with the ultimate goal to ensure that every member of our community then gets a fair shot to actually benefit from the thriving industry we are building all together. In our digital ecosystem, where innovations come at lightning speed, especially thinking of AI at the moment, like it's like daily changes, weekly changes, the project's lifeline depends on its ability to grow and to adapt. But to do that, it clearly needs resources, which means corporate investment is vital. Big corporations need to recognize and respond to the influence they have in this project while still taking into account return on investment of their actions and rightfully so. Major players in the industry get significant reports from open source, yet with such benefits, come responsibilities if you want that to continue. Waiting for the next cycle of contributors to burn out for the project while monetizing their efforts is neither ethical nor sustainable. In the ever-changing landscape I mentioned before, the turnover in volunteer contributors will soon enough not do it anymore, especially because we are also not actively enough involving newer generations. On the other hand, if we as a community want more investment, it is crucial to understand the business angle and openly talk about return on investment. It is not enough to share the same old story about giving back, and it is simply not fair to expect from volunteer contributors that are unpaid to use this argument over and over again to get big corporate players to open their pockets towards the project. The workplace community stands at the crossroad here and the narrative needs to evolve. And it has to resonate with both the altruistic visions and business-centric motivations of both actors. As a community, we can guide companies to recognize that their investment in the project is not just about giving back. It is about shared growth. Imagine the WordPress project as a pie. As the whole project grows, that pie becomes bigger. And with it, everyone's individual share becomes bigger and more substantial. The bigger the pie, the bigger your slice you're taking out of it. And this is equally true for freelancers, employees, small businesses, medium-sized businesses and big corporations. As we dive to the final part of our discussion today, let's envision, together, a more sustainable future for WordPress. The goal? To ensure the project doesn't just survive, but thrives, adapting to changing times without sacrificing the well-being of its contributors. Here's some ideas. In the open-source world, discussions about money and business can sometimes be sidelined or even discouraged. And that's clearly holding us back. It creates an unequal playing field once more where promising financial opportunities are often only accessible to those in the right networks or the inner circles. To seize the full potential of the WordPress open-source project, it is crucial the community starts talking openly about business topics and money. I said it out loud. This approach would not only unlock a multitude of benefits, it would also democratize opportunities, giving every stakeholder a fair shot. Such an environment would also fuel fresh ideas, entrepreneurship and cultivating a culture of innovation and growth. Transparent business discussions can set a valuable foundation for a more inclusive and sustainable future while drawing more investment into our community at the same time. Win-win like that. Word camps, events. Our three flagship events are great, but it could be so much more with an open and clear business focus. Because let's face it, they are already commercial in nature. They are. But yet by not actively and openly promoting a business perspective, we are limiting transparency and access to potential opportunities. By introducing innovative new formats, we can create space for everyone in the community. Let's become creative and harness the potential of the next generation of WordCams, which is a new project that the community team launched. And I think it has also been discussed during this Contributor Day. I'm really excited to see what the outcome is going to be. I believe that there is room for both WordPress business events and community events that cherish the traditional BarCAM experience and more. Also, step outside your bubble occasionally. Attend other B2C and B2B events like Lugfest, for example. Broaden your horizon and be inspired by new ideas. Be curious and learn from different communities. By the way, inside our WordPress bubble, there's an amazing platform and community called Poststatus, which I highly recommend all of you, if you don't know it yet, if you want to dive deeper into the business world of WordPress. Finally, it's also crucial that we start seeing and treating WordCams sponsors as equal partners, not as a necessary evil. Crafting more compelling return on investment business cases for them will not only attract more investment, but also promote collaborative growth for the project. And by embracing this new approach, the result would be more inclusive, vibrant, productive and financially sustainable WordPress events. They would no longer be just community gatherings, but also strategic platforms for collaboration and business growth. Once we start to harness the full potential of our events, we'd see better and more diverse engagement levels as well, increased sponsor participation and a community that thrives on both its open source and business driven achievement. For a sustainable future of WordPress, we need to find that balance between passionate community contributions and thriving business events, business interests, events as well, could be the same to all WordPress contributors out there. It is essential to engage mindfully ensuring your well-being at all time. That's your own responsibility in the end. You can look out for others, but you also have to realize that there's nothing ever more important than your own help. Regularly evaluate priorities, motivations and counter value when contributing. And if you are not ready to do that, then please don't contribute. It's that easy. On the flip side, you're business leaders. You have the responsibility to recognize and fairly reward these contributions. Remember, there's this flies out of the WordPress pie you want that to grow, right? And this isn't just about ethics. It's about ensuring the sustainability and growth of the WordPress project as a whole. By fostering open and transparent dialogue about business engagement, we are starting bridging the gaps between our two world's WordPress. And to wrap up today's session, just a few key takeaways. And short contributions are sustainable. It's about balancing effort with meaningful results. And we need to stop accepting, burn out and relying on the next contributor cycle to take over the previous one. Every contributor has a unique starting point, not all voices are being heard. And whether you are a contributor yourself, a user or involved in a WordPress business, awareness is key here. There is an unequal playing field. This stigmatize the topic of money and embrace the business angle. Let's start having open dialogue about bridging the gap between our community and the business world and this synergy that will drive the future success of WordPress, creating a flourishing ecosystem with countless opportunities for everyone involved. Thank you. That was it. Thank you so much for that, Carol. Now to the questions. Please raise your hands and I will come to you with a mic. Any questions? Thank you for your talk. For context, this is my first award camp and I'm a very new contributor. Oh, that's interesting. Welcome to the community. Yeah, so I may be missing a lot of context here, but I was wondering if you have any specific models in mind about how this business contributor co-lab could take place? Is it like businesses are sponsoring? Yeah. Contributors are like a fund that they pay into and then there's a committee. How does that work? So there are a lot of initiatives out there, but the problem in my opinion is that they are based on this narrative that we are trying to convince our partners from the business world that it is their duty to give back. No, it's not that this is not actually true, but I wouldn't say it that way. The thing is, if you want this to continue, if you wanna be possible to still have a business that is thriving in this ecosystem, you have to make sure that the ecosystem itself is thriving, right? So I just would change the narrative. This is not about you have to give back as a business because you're taking out something. It's like, hey, we all want this cake to become bigger or it is probably to become bigger. So how can we do that together? So that's the one part of the problem that we're facing right now in my opinion. That's the narrative and on the other hand, it is unethical what is happening at the moment. There are a lot of people, since I joined community in 2016 that I don't see around anymore where I know they have been facing like severe health issues because they were completely burning outward also because they were sometimes having unrealistic expectations. They came to an event, they were facing this inclusive community and everybody told them, oh yeah, if you get involved, there's a wide range of opportunities for you, but nobody is actually sharing what fields are leading to those opportunities and what fields are not. So I see people trying hard every day to achieve something, to be able to become sponsored, to be able to have other job opportunities, but they are working hard in an invisible field of this project or they don't have the right voice. So that's what I'm meaning with the unequal playing field. What I think is, so I don't have a built, ready-built solution for that. Oh, if I had, that would be awesome. But there are initiatives out there, like for example, the WordPress Sustainability Team who are actively at the moment trying to make these conversations happen and that was my goal here. I wanted to play my part in creating, yeah, in opening, in raising awareness so these conversations can start happening. I think everything starts with becoming aware that there is a gap, that there's an unequal playing field, there's unethical things happening in our community and we should just not close our eyes and try to build something where we all can benefit from what we are working on. I'm not sure if that answered your question. Tomorrow I have a solution. Any more questions? Don't be shy. I know you have them. Hi, you've talked about the volunteers on one side and companies on the other side. And I was wondering, do you also see a role in your new narrative for the public sector because there's a lot of policy aimed at becoming less dependent on big technology firms and closed platforms of technology and I think there's a big momentum there to also have ways of reaching these policy makers and also enabling them to become more visible in sponsoring or supporting the WordPress community. Yeah, this is a really brilliant question and I'm like, oh my God, I have never thought about that. You know why? Because I've been working for government in Luxembourg for so many years and I was so fed up with it. So I mean staying away from this topic as far as I can tell, but you are so, so right and I have to admit it never crossed my mind. But immediately while you were talking, I was like, oh my God, there's so many topics where we have to involve these actors, like for example, privacy. And then also, I know that there have been initiatives also in terms of, in open source, for example, like all the different professions that are represented here. There is now, how do you call it, Gewerkschaft? Yeah, there's so many different types of topics and there's no union that would defend the interests of what we are all doing here. Like if you are a software engineer, if you are a designer. So there's no way that we can, for example, start certifying what we're doing and that you have actually some kind of proof of skill sets that people are bringing in, certifications and stuff. So that's also something that comes into my mind. So basically I have absolutely no answer to your question but it is brilliant to include that. And I hope that someone's taking notes for the sustainability team here. And I'm, do you know, Simon, if that has been a topic of conversation already? But it's a really good point, is it? So I have no answer to your question, but I'm forwarding it to the sustainability team so they can wrap their minds around it. Would someone translate me into English? For that, designers, for example, can be in a company, with Verdi. And I know that Verdi is also taking care of it, not only so that we can be designers in the artificial social network, but also that things are done for other individual professionals, for example, that the health insurance is no longer so expensive for professional entrepreneurs. That's also thanks to Verdi. So in that sense, I don't know exactly how that is with developers, in which companies they can go, if they can also go to Verdi. But let me tell you, it's not like that companies are just for people in decision-making. So I'm a little bit active with Verdi. And that was at the beginning of my self-employment also really the people who helped me, who gave me good contracts without extra money. So, yes, would someone translate that? Okay, the translation, I try. Where's that there is a Verdi, which is a union in Germany. And as a designer, you can be part of it, even if you're not employed, also if you're freelancing in a kind of fight it for, it's called Künste Sozialkasse, which is kind of for... Oh God, how to explain that? It's more about health insurance. Yeah, and like pension and stuff. And so the recommendation was to inform, is this a possibility for you and also the question, if this also exists for developers and not only for designers. So I think, so thank you very much for the information. I think that we've talking about two different things. So maybe I expressed myself, not in a very clear way. What I was referring to is, like more on the global area, in the global area, in the global field, that I wasn't really thinking about health insurance and rights and all of that social security stuff, but more about how this is happening in our community and about the value of the professions that we are all exercing, is this in English? Exercing here that it is not really protected. So everyone can say, okay, I'm a web developer, I'm a web press developer, I'm a web press designer, I'm a software architect, I'm a software engineer, whatever. So it is not really clear who does what. And people that are doing a brilliant job for years, they are in competition with people that are using the very, very same titles for what they are doing. And there's absolutely no clarity about that. And then if you're leaving the open source sector, so let's say, okay, you have been working with web press companies for years as a freelancer, as a volunteer, as whatever you've been doing. And then, for example, you would say, okay, now I'm gonna go work to a government-based organization. What is your certification? What have you done? Like what, it's not protected in any way. So that was what I was referring to, that was at least what Flores' question was like, what it meant, what it started in my brain. My brain is tired by now. So yeah, but thank you so much for the information. And I think for the German web press community, that is a really, really valuable advice. My point is about all those small things in the web press community which are done like translation, like support, like answering to requests for giving more permissions and things like that. There are so many small parts. And I think we need funding for those small people. And it's discussed for years now. How do we collect money and how do we get this money to so many people who are doing small jobs because they're not funded and it's not about okay, you're now full-time contributing and this is your salary. We are talking about freelancing people that have very small jobs but important jobs in the community. And how do we collect money and get this money to those very, very many small people? I have no answer to this. I was, when I was building those slides and crafting this talk, I was thinking about those things exactly because everything that all these people are doing is not visible. And that's the thing, like these people are also burning out very unvisibly. And it is not a good thing. I was about to say a swear word, I can't. So easy answer, if it is an easy answer, is starting to talk about money on both sides. If we can start talking about what we as a community and in the volunteer-driven project can do for businesses, they can start talking about what they can do in return if we can create a win-win situation. So I think that what we are doing as a community is sharing these old narratives for, I don't know since I am in the community and you are in the community way longer than I am. So it's always about, okay, but look, you have to give back. Like there's all this stuff which is really important for your business too and I'm doing it and so many other people are doing it, but you have to give back. That's five for the future, yada, yada. This is not wrong, but this is not being heard. So when we are doing this for 10 years or 12 years now and it's not being heard, why are we doing it? Why wouldn't we go a different direction and start talking about money in a holistic sense? So in German we would say, warum wollen wir das fett von hinten auf? We should try a different narrative. We should try to give businesses the platform to openly talk about their goals as well, what they take out of the community, but also what they can invest into the community to take out more of it. But we cannot do that at the moment. So, and that's how I see, that's what I see a good start for having those conversations. Thank you, Sjoen. Thank you, Carol, and thank you for a lively discussion. Unfortunately, we have to wrap up here. Oh, good, I'm here. Well, we have a gift for you. Oh, thank you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Oh, it's for my lunch. So thank you for coming to this talk and enjoy your lunch. Thank you.