 Welcome back into the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein along with my partner in crime, the doctor Jimmy Bucci Lotto. Hi everyone. We got Benny behind the glass and we have a very special guest. Today we're going to do an episode on the bodies that have been don't forget to subscribe. Yeah, sorry, I'm gonna I'll get to that in one second. We're going to do an episode on the bodies that popping up in Las Vegas that authorities believe the at least one if not more of them could be tied to the Tony the Ant Splotrow, that bloody rain of mob power in Vegas that Tony Splotrow lorded over most of the 70s into the 1980s was all put onto the big screen in the movie Casino. And a lot of that's coming back to light with with the background being the fact that there are bodies being found in Las Vegas now that because of precipitous water levels dipping at Lake Mead. There's been over a half a dozen bodies that have come to the surface over the last year. And my reporting is telling me that one of those bodies is being identified or is that the feds are zeroing in and the state authorities are zeroing in. They believe that they're going to identify one of the bodies as a former Chicago mob associate named Johnny Pappas disappeared 1976. We're gonna get into that. We're gonna bring on a very special guest. First, I want to tell everybody to please like, subscribe, share original gangsters podcast on YouTube, spread the word, pound the like button, let everyone know we're growing every day. And we're gonna keep on bringing you great content and hopefully keep on teasing this more content. I think we want to get to a point where we're we're giving out three pieces of content a week at least. And then go from go from that point. So let's bring in our guest veteran crime reporter. We talked about the all the OGs on the podcast, whether we're talking about OG gangsters, OG law enforcement. But you know, from being a reporter myself, I always tip my cap and give a nod to the OG crime reporters. Larry Henry, thank you for joining us. All time Las Vegas crime reporter, political reporter worked at the Las Vegas Sun worked in his home home state of Arkansas. Today works for gamble or casino.com. And the My Museum, where he writes, he writes for casino.com weekly, the My Museum, he's got a column that comes out every month. And Larry, thanks for joining us. Thanks, Scott for having me. Let me say before we start, I'm a subscriber and I agree, please subscribe not only to the YouTube channel and the podcast, but also to the website. Nobody has better sources in in what's going on with the mob and underworld and Scott. So thanks for having me. It's great. Thanks, Larry. Yeah, www.gangsterreport.com. Check it out. Shout out to Ben behind the glass who's taken us to a whole other level with both the podcast and the website. So we couldn't do it without without our MVP, Benny. So Larry, let's you know, Jimmy and I were talking off air. The last episode we did on this was about a year ago. There's been a developments. So let's kind of unpack it. You know, what exactly happened first? So for people that might not know and then kind of dive into what's going on right now. So I teased it that one of these bodies that's come to the surface. Investigators are now of the opinion that this one body which was known as the body in the barrel was the first body to surface first week of May 2022 or last couple days of April 1st, couple days of May 2022. A rusted barrel with a body with two bullet holes in the back of the head comes to the surface. And immediately people start thinking about Tony Spilatro and his reign on top of Las Vegas underworld from 1971 until 1986. Probably three dozen gangland homicides tied to that area tied to that era if not more. This happened in 1976. Johnny Papp has disappeared. Larry, what were your first? What were the first thoughts that came to your head when when these well, the body in the barrel was the first one to pop up and then another five or six popped up throughout the rest of 2022. What were you thinking when you heard about this news? Same thing as everybody else. When I first saw it, Scott, I thought mom, I wrote some stories for gammon.com where I am now and began to dig into it like like a lot of other people did and still am fascinated by it. As you say, last May, a year ago, some recreational users of the lake because of the drought in Southern Nevada, that's the water resource for 30 miles from Las Vegas. That's the water resource for the city and the whole area. Now the city is downtown Las Vegas is the city, but the strip is really outside of city limits, but everybody including me refers to that whole area as Las Vegas except when you get into Henderson places like that. But that lake began to recede because of the drought severely recede. And as that happened, the first thing that popped up, as you said, Scott, the first week of May, a barrel corroded 55 gallon drum. You think back to the Johnny Roselle's who were found in Miami in a drum and so you're thinking mob. So barrels taken back examined turns out to be somebody who based on the clothes, a watch, some clothes of Kmart clothing was was the time frame attached to it was late 70s to early 80s. And the person had been shot to death. So of course everybody's thinking mob. Now the image and the stereotype over time was mob takes people out the desert. Las Vegas had always been sort of a zone where a lot as you know better than anybody's got a lot of different families operate, operated in Las Vegas throughout the years when when the mob controlled casinos on the strip, especially in downtown. But you know, the image was they would take them out to the to the desert reinforced by the movie casino came out in the famous line. There were a lot of problems that were solved in that desert. Solved Joe Pesci playing the person you mentioned, based on the person you mentioned Tony splotcher. So they take this body back. They discovered that this person was killed during the era when people like Tony splotcher, Frank Rosenthal, the Chicago outfit, all those people were extremely active. So clearly my thought was like like yours and everybody else's I think Scott, this was a mob hit and let let's be clear too that I mean, as crime reporters, that's immediately our radars are going to be fixed on on a La Cosa Nostra or a mob hit, but just doesn't mean that everybody that's coming to the surface is a mob hit. And I know that at least one body, I think maybe two bodies have been identified as either drowning victims or voting accidents, voting accidents. So but the more bodies that come up and two bullets in the back of the head in a voting X, right? And and if you listen to the experts, they're saying that this is not going to be something that stops happening, that the the water level is going to continue to drop over the next year to two years. And they expect to have dozens of more bodies. So but when we're talking about spielato, I think the most interesting part, and I don't even want to credit as my reporting because this was a statement made by a member of law enforcement, then I was able to kind of piggyback off of it. But in addition to what I've heard in the last couple months that law that law enforcement in Vegas is zeroing in on ID in that body as Johnny Pappas. There was a comment made to the press somewhat recently that law enforcement believes that if it is Johnny Pappas, that they could potentially bring a case, which tells you that there are people still alive, that they are tying to that murder. And the name that I have come across is Pauli the Indian shero, who was recently released from prison after doing about 22 years on another murder, which actually happened out on the West Coast, even though Pauli was a Chicago outfit soldier that worked for Tony splotcher was very close friends with Paul with Tony splotcher. And when splotcher got sent out to Las Vegas in 1971, and was was told to put together a West Coast outfit crew, he got Pauli Pauli shero from Chicago put him in Phoenix. And that became his, you know, his, his boots on the ground in Arizona. But whenever splotcher needed wet work done, and there was quite a bit of murder and bloodshed, especially in those first handful of years that he was coming in and, and, you know, establishing his, his dominance. He would call Pauli shero to Vegas to help him with that work, according to sources, according to court filings and FBI documents I've seen. And, and sometimes dispatching to California. But I was told by someone that no shero and that new Pappas that Pauli shero was in Las Vegas in August of 1976, when Johnny Pappas disappeared, as well as Jay Vander Mark disappeared, they both disappeared in the same two to three week time period. And it was in the wake of the first federal raid of casino count rooms, which would eventually flourish into the straw man operation straw man cases that came in the 1980s. Any thoughts? Yeah. You know, Vander Mark was the slot manager at the Stardust, which was the property that Frank Lifty Rosenthal illegally managed for Midwestern mobsters and disappeared. He suspected of skimming off the skin and also potentially turning and becoming a government informant and the same with Johnny Pappas. Johnny Pappas, as you notice, got Chicago Outfit Associate tied in tied in with Alan Glick. Alan Glick was the San Diego businessman, young guy, Vietnam veteran, comes over to Las Vegas, real estate guy from San Diego, gets teams to his loans. With those loans come a commitment to to be beholden to the mob. And Glick had four casinos in the Las Vegas Valley. He had Hacienda, where Mandalay Bay is now he had the Marina, which has become a part of the MGM grand out by the airport. He had the Stardust, which which has been demolished and now is where resorts were Las Vegas is. And he had the Fremont downtown, the Fremont still there by the way, Fanduil, the sports betting company just opened the sports book in the Fanduil. I mean, I'm sorry in the Fremont. So he also had Argent Corp was the name of his company funded by Teamsters loans. He also had Echo Bay Resort. Echo Bay Resort was a property, as you know, Scott, out on Lake Mead. About 50, the legs about 30 miles that the resort was somewhat farther out, but it was a popular place. There were 50 some I built in the early 60s 50 some odd rooms. It had 300 boat spaces. This was when the resort was on the lake, basically. And so it was a really popular place allegedly and Margaret hung out there when they were shooting Viva Las Vegas. And it was a popular place for celebrities, casino managers. They would get away out to the Echo Bay Resort. And so that was managed by this guy named Johnny Pappas. Now, Pappas went missing, as you know, to Vandermark, I think we missed, I think Scott, correct me if I'm wrong, I think around May of 76, I think it could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the raid on the on the Stardust count room was in May or June. Okay, okay. And then Vandermark disappeared on like August, okay, first or second. And Johnny Pappas disappeared on August 18, 1976. Yeah. He was supposed to meet with a couple of guys who wanted to buy one of the boats that he used out at Echo Bay, which he managed for a bit shows up at the restaurant. Apparently showed up on the strip. He was called Joe. I think it was called Jojo's Jojo's. Yeah. Yeah. And and and then that's it. They find his car. It's a circus, by the way, still in the strip still still in business, not mobbed up anymore, but it was a mobbed up. And that's what that's where Tony Spilacro when he got to Vegas, his first, you know, shop that he opened up was in Circus Circus. Give shop in Circus. Yeah. Before he went over and opened the gold rush near there, the jewelry shop, which was his you know, front first stolen property. Now, they find his car, Pappas, they found his car in the circus parking lot. Keys are still in there. So clearly foul play was involved. That was about it. That was about all anybody heard about Pappas for a long time. Years later, Ned Day, muckraking reporter in Las Vegas, who had some experience himself with the underworld in Milwaukee before moving to Las Vegas in his early 30s and became a crusading mob busting reporter in Las Vegas. Ned Day revealed that Pappas right before he disappeared. As you note, August 18 1976 cars found in the Circus parking lot. He apparently wanted to meet with Glick. The last person who saw him alive said Pappas wanted to meet with Alan Glick. Glick was too busy. He was nervous. Pappas was he wanted to meet with Glick. He was an aide to Glick really. But Glick didn't have time to meetings to meet with Pappas. He was going from meeting to meeting at the hotel and all this other stuff. So Pappas ultimately went away. So there's some suspicion about, you know, why was Pappas so easy or either to meet with Glick? What was going on with these two guys who said they wanted to buy the boat that Pappas used? And that's where it sort of it sort of went away, Scott, for a while, until the body shows up in the lake. And that revived the whole discussion last year. That revived the whole discussion about okay, was it Vandemarck? Was it Pappas? It was a guy, a male in the barrel with the bullet hulls, with the bullet shots. Wearing Kmart clothes. Is that sort of clothes? Right. That doesn't fit necessarily for a high roller mob guy. That's what Pappas was. And you know, so somebody thought maybe this was just a low level street bookie who wasn't paying. Maybe that's who they took out. So a lot of mystery still exists, but you're right. And your sources are always outstanding. I mean, fingers, it seems to be pointing toward Pappas, Scott. Yeah, I the Kmart clothes. I mean, that's a wrench in the mind. If my memory serves again, I probably should have doubled checklist before I jumped on the air. I thought the Kmart thing was the shoes. It may have been the shoes. Oh, shoes clothes. I'm not saying that that a mobster would buy Kmart shoes, but it wasn't head to toe. I don't think it was like head to toe dressed in J.C. Penney or Kmart. Right. Right. It wasn't four time shoes. But they were but they were able to I think identify some of the or to predict or or hypothesize that the time period and they would make by that the fact I think I'm pretty sure that the line of shoe that he was wearing stopped being produced in 1981 or 1982. Yeah, they knew that it happened before that. And maybe if he was boating or whatever, it could have been like his work shoes. I don't know. Right. Right. Yeah. So let's just real quick talk about who Johnny Pappas was. His real name was Johnny Padgino Tacos. His alias was Johnny Pappas came from Chicago and was in the Chicago mobs or was affiliated with the Chicago mobs, you know, Greek branch. A guy named Gus Alex, Slim Alex was a as powerful as you can get in the Chicago mob without being a made guy without being an administrator. He was the fixer. He was the grease the palm of the politicians and the police guy. He ran what's known as the loop in Chicago. And if you've ever been to Chicago or you live in Chicago like myself, you know, the loop downtown Chicago is kind of split in two between the river. When you cross the bridge, you're into the loop. And that's where most of the business district is. But then when you go north on the bridge and you go into the miracle mile and Rush Street, that's where all the, you know, dining and entertainment and shopping is. But if you go to the loop, that's where all the office buildings are. And that's where the state of Illinois building is. It's where the federal court is. And that was where Gus Alex would, you know, that's where his presence was most felt. How far does he go back? He went back to Capone or not that he went back, I think right around Capone. He had taken the place of Murray, the camel Humphries, who was other bones and JC. Sorry, Jacob greasy thumb, who's that who had been Capone's payoff guys. Yeah. And and Gus, the Alex kind of took over that job from them and was was was was wielding power all the way through the 1980s. He got busted and I think 89 or 90 got locked up and died and died in prison. But Pappas was sent to Las Vegas, I believe in 1967 by Gus Alex. And there was about a seven year period there before he ended up at the Echo Bay. He was named CEO or or whatever the actual title was, but the guy that was running Echo Bay, he got that job in 74. But for about seven, eight years before that, he was bouncing around to different casinos. I think he worked with the Stardust for a while. But he was also and this is I want to throw it to Larry and get his take on this. He was also heavily involved in politics and it was a some type of chairman of a branch of the Democratic Party there. So he was he was more he wasn't just a knuckle dragging gangster that was working for Tony's plot. I mean, this guy was a little bit more of a Renaissance man in terms of what he was doing in Las Vegas. Yeah, he was smart. As you say, he did some time, I think as a greeter to castles now with a mirage is soon to be the hard rock. I think it's Caesar Scott. He did he was he was a greeter at some point. So yeah, he was involved clearly before he was was a part of Glick's. And I think he went to the he went to the Stardust before the Echo Bay. He was working in the Stardust under lefty. Yeah, and became Glick's guy. So before all that, you're absolutely right. He in the early days, Michael Callahan and I work for for Michael Callahan at the Las Vegas son, he was the executive editor at the sun when I was when I was at the sun. Mike, Mike was a legend in Nevada. Mike was a populist governor. Going back to the Korean War. Mike was a, you know, a hero. He lost part of his leg in battle, kept fighting after losing part of his leg came home, went to the University of Idaho, got an education, moved down to Nevada. Mentor, by the way, he was a teacher, a school teacher, Richard Harry Reid, as you guys know, became extremely powerful US Senator from Nevada dead now. And, you know, the airport in Las Vegas has been renamed for Harry Reid. So that's a part of Mike's background. Then he became a public official. He ran for Lieutenant Governor. That's where Scott, that's where Papa Scott involved. He was heavily involved in the Democratic Party in Clark County, which as you guys know, Las Vegas is in Clark County. Pappas was involved with the Democratic Party, got in, got in tight with all that crowd, became involved in Michael Callahan's campaign for Lieutenant Governor. Then when Michael Callahan became governor was sort of a driver for Michael Callahan and helped though Callahan. So yeah, he was, he was completely politically tied in. And Michael Callahan, by the way, in no way was, was, was a, you know, mob, mobbed governor, or in fact, he was the odd, he put Harry Reid on the Nevada Gaming Commission and Harry Reid went after Frank Rose and fallen people like that. So Michael Callahan was clean, squeaky clean. He wasn't any implication, which no one's made that I know of, but any implication just to clear it up for, for, for the viewers here, that Callahan's working with Pappas, Pappas working with Callahan had anything to do with the mob. Not true. I mean, you know, Callahan was, was completely straight, completely clean. But anyway, that does demonstrate how Pappas, yeah, as you say, he wasn't just some mob guy coming in and, and blowing up cars and shooting people. He was involved politically in the early days, and then, and then moved into the heavy involvement of casinos. I mean, I think it's pertinent to, to put the Pappas disappearance and the Vandermark disappearance together because they both happened in the same couple of weeks in 76 and Vandermark fits that same. I mean, not to say the Vandermark Vandermark was involved in politics. He wasn't, but Vandermark and Pappas were not your traditional tough guy gangsters or movers and shakers. They were, you know, you know, spokes on the wheel that were a little bit more polished, a little bit more refined and helped the wheel turn. So you need guys like that. Right? You need guys like that. So the muscle guys can do what they do to keep everyone in line. But the straw that serves the drink are guys like that. Yeah. And I think, along those same lines, they might not be able to give the government information on who was killed and where a body was buried. But they definitely can give the government information on where the money is going. Yeah. And how the money is flowing vertically shell companies, where money is being hidden. And in both the cases of Vandermark and Pappas, there were worries, there were rumors that in the fallout from that first raid, that they were either talking already, or we're going to talk. And then I want to throw one thing at, or throw another thing at Larry here. Vandermark, Pappas is not a character in the movie casino. But Vandermark is the, I don't know if it was John Nance or Jack Nance, who is the guy that who is always going to the to the Italian mob bosses in the back of that grocery store. And he's trying to explain, you know, we've joked about this before about the, you know, you're saying the guys that we're paying to steal are stealing from us. Yeah. And then Nance says, it's called leakage. Yeah. And then the guy says leakage my balls. I want my money. Yeah. That John Nance character was based on Jay Vandermark. In the movie, they tell you that that Nance is killed because they were were that the outfit was worried that Nance was going to flip because Nance's son was a junkie. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's that was true with Vandermark. Vandermark son Jeffrey was a outfit associate drug addict that the outfit was worried about. And he ended up dead within a year of his dad disappearing. So and then and then in the movie, it's the scene where they shoot the guy in the swimming pool. Right. That's supposed to be who Jay Vandermark was. He was in charge of the count rooms. Do they think he was skimming to the outfit? I think that they because that might get you killed faster than snitching. I think there was a lot of they think you're stealing questions about that. And just whether or not someone like Jay Vandermark or even someone like Pappas can could stand up to to a big squeeze. And I think Pappas had had a bit of a record and had done a little bit of time, but not the kind of time that that those cases ended up giving out, which was you were going to do 20 or you would do 10 to 20 years. So Larry, did you know anything about the the Vandermark family and you you hit it perfectly and you made me think of now by the way, you know, the threats that that were happening. And and you hit on it, Scott. Pappas's wife later said that there was an episode where someone tried to run Pappas off the road. Yeah, two weeks two weeks before he disappeared, which would have been around the time Vandermark. Right. Right. Someone drove Pappas off the road when he was coming from Echo Bay back or back home to Las Vegas. Well, and that demonstrates what that period was like with Vandermark with Pappas. It's it's really hard. And you know this, and you guys know this to frame now for people who are familiar with the current Las Vegas. The way it was back then and you and you and you hit on it with people who were respected, then it turned out to be that they had some underworld connections. Yeah, the Mo Dales is you had you had Carl Thomas was seen as one of the most respected people in Las Vegas, worked at the Stardust, worked at the Tropicana and later was convicted of skimming. So a lot of these people who were seen as stand up community people got later got in trouble and Alan Glick and now he didn't he later, you know, he died not too long ago, but but we find out later on that Glick was an informant. Great. Yeah. Was an informant. Lefty lefty. Right. Listen, our friend Jeff Schumacher at the Mott Museum, as you know, reported not long ago that that there was a lot of suspicion of Pappas was was it a former and yeah, Frank Rosenthal never did get indicted, never did get convicted or even arrested of anything. Carl blew up in Las Vegas, moved out of town. But Jane Ann Morrison reported to review journal, good friend of mine, later reported that Rosenthal was an informant as was his wife Jerry, played by De Niro and Sharon Stone in the movie. So yeah, I mean, people who are were seen as community and they were members of the Las Vegas Country Club. They were dining with Mo Day with Mo Daylitz with Mo Daylitz dining with the power lead in Las Vegas. And so that's the kind of talent it was back then. There were a lot of cover ups, a lot of people, a lot of winking a lot of if you around that same timeframe, I know I'm jumping around, but I just tried trying to illustrate what that period was like in Las Vegas, not involving Pappas, not involving that that whole incident. But keep in mind, Al Bramlett, who ran the Coronary Union, as you guys know, in that same timeframe, a little bit later, later was shot to death and buried out in the desert with his hand sticking up as if he were waving goodbye to the world by a hit man named Tom Hanley. So it was a very violent, very small world that that a lot of cover up, a lot of shenanigans and if people stepped out of line, they were taking care of thus Vandermark, thus Pappas potentially. That's what happened to those guys. For people that might not have the point of reference, I mean, even me and Jimmy, I mean, I don't have any memories of Vegas, the way it used to be. The first time I went to Vegas was in the late 90s, early 2000s. By that point, it was corporatized to the to the level that it is now and it's a corporate town now. Right. But you know, in from the time it was conceived in the 40s, through the 80s, it wasn't what it is now. Right. It wasn't as there was a lot of glyphs and glamour, but it was it was a different kind of glyphs and glamour. It was all actually all that a lot of it was based on gambling. It was more gritty. I mean, I remember going there as a kid in the 80s. And I mean, I obviously didn't appreciate the kinds of things we're talking about, but it was different. It was first of all, it wasn't as filled out. Yeah. And it was it was it was grittier, sleazier. I don't really think I mean, this this sounds this sounds like an oxymoron, but I don't think it is right now. You don't go to Vegas to gamble. I mean, you do some. Yeah, but a lot of people don't. You're right. They go for a destination to go and have fun and party and go to shows and go go shop. It's not it used to be a place you went and gambled. Yes, you went and saw shows. The Rat Pack was there. People Elvis, they performed there, but it's not the same way now where even me, who's a big gambler, the last handful of times that I've gone to Vegas, I haven't hit the tables hard. Well, for one thing, the table image out of control. Yeah. You guys hit it perfectly. Back in the day, there was a little bit of a sleazy element, which is why you the major sports leagues wouldn't place teams there. Paul Tagliabue, NFL commissioner said we'll never put an NFL team in Las Vegas. It was, you know, you had nudes on the NBA just came out like this week saying it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when we're going to be in Vegas. Yeah. So, you know, you had nudes on ice circus circus circus circus still there upstairs where the arcade games are ski ball and all that throw the, you know, shoot the shoot the water balloon in the clown's mouth. There was a, there was a device where you could drop money in a slot. A slot will go down. There'd be new dancers and this was in circus. It was a sleazy town. People were attracted there to gamble as you guys say. That was the moneymaker. Now fast forward to now. Wall Street Journal had a story not too long ago in 19, since 1999. This shows you how it's changed. Since 1999, the casinos on the strip have made more money from entertainment, food, hotel, and all that then gambling minus the COVID, the high of the COVID years. But it's totally transitioned. Bill Hornbuckle, who's the CEO of MGM Resorts, said the other day on CNBC, the future of Las Vegas where the revenue is going to come from now in the future is entertainment. Like you guys say, people go to see Adele. They go to see Usher. They go to shop at Versace. They go to party. They just want to party, get drunk, get high, go get sleep. The swimming pool culture. Yeah, the swimming pool culture is massive now. You want to know the bit. I'm going to digress for a second. But you want to know the biggest racket that I've ever seen in the world of hotels. A couple of years ago, I'm in Vegas and I'm sure it's like this everywhere in Vegas now. I'm sure. But I think this was one of the first places to do it. And I was at the Cosmopolitan when it first opened in that at that point it was before COVID. It was the kind of the hottest new hotel. And they called the pool a dayclub that you had to pay like $500 to go to the pool at your hotel. And I'm like, well, what am I paying for? Oh, well, they're going to be playing music. I said, well, I can bring my my AirPods. Why am I paying to go to the pool? I've never had to pay to go to the pool before. Yeah, that's not really digressionally because it really does underscore what this city is about. Now, think back in the old pictures you see on the desert and the rental of it, all those places they have a little swimming pool every two or three people. Everybody was inside gambling. They have you drive down the strip. Don Rick was performing over here, Sinatra over there, Phyllis Diller over here. It was about getting gamblers to town. You had the entertainment, you had topless dancing, you had the standing show. So it was about getting the gamblers to town, keeping them in the casino. You didn't want them at the pool. Right. Right. You wanted them at the tables. Now that's changed, guys. Now they come for, you wouldn't have imagined a Versace shop in Las Vegas back in the 60s and 70s, but now part of it is Las Vegas is, I know we're out, we'll get back on topic, but it does reflect the change in the city from the Pappas, the barrel in the late days to now. Las Vegas now is a convention city. That's what drives Elon Musk is building an underground. It's all about the conventions now and back then, I remember doing stories at the Las Vegas Sun. I would ask people, governors and people who were at conventions about whether they gambled and they were almost embarrassed to be in Las Vegas if they're out of state governor's because it was seen, you're right, as a kind of a taugry place. Conventions wouldn't go to Las Vegas. You couldn't get an Apple or, you know, Ford Motor Company or somebody like that to have a convention in Las Vegas because it was seen as taugry. Bill Hornbuckle, the CEO at NGM the other day. We'll get back on topic, but no, it's okay. He said, Las Vegas isn't since it anymore. It's the sports and entertainment capital of the world. That's the difference between the lake, the barrel in the late days and today. And you know what started in the 90s, and I think it's still part of this new Vegas, and it was kind of, I think, kind of a bridge gap, was turning it into a family friendly. You could bring your kids. Nobody was bringing their kids to Vegas in the 60s. When I was a kid in the 70s and the 80s going there, because we were in California, it was it was pretty lame from a eight, nine, 10 year old because other than circus circus, circus, circus every arcade is one hotel. It was kind of geared towards right if you wanted to have a kid. But otherwise it was pretty boring for me. I was the one person at the pool because as a kid, there wasn't, and the casinos, they wouldn't even let you in if you weren't 21 or whatever. So there was really wasn't anything to hang out. Now it's totally family friendly. It's like it wasn't like that in Disneyland. I mean, that's what it is. Amusement Park. As Nicholas Palletti said, who wrote Casino. 1989, Steve Nguyen, who, you know, Casino developer, who had the golden nugget downtown. Who got his start with Detroit mob guys? Yeah. Yeah. That hit the frontier. Back east. And I think his dad was... But his first job in law, I spent the hit the hit the Siren Benny. When I spent the last couple of months of Tony's early's life with him, who owned the frontier. Yeah. He said, you and we never ended up releasing the book. It will never see the light of day. But while we were writing a book that never got published, he was like, you be sure to put in there that Steve Nguyen would have been nothing without me. I gave him his first job. God, you gotta write that book. Yeah. You gotta get that published. So when goes out to, we mentioned that that Pappas worked at the Castaways, goes out to that location. It builds the mirage. That was the first mega resort themed resort. And then like Scott says, that kicked off this whole family friendly New York, New York with the fair with the roller coaster, the treasure island with the pirates battling out front. Now meanwhile, Derek Stevens, who as Scott knows has some Detroit history himself, he opened Circa Resort downtown. First casino to come from the ground up in downtown Las Vegas in 40 years. Adults, kids aren't allowed. It's an adult's only property. There's a steakhouse in the in the basement in the bottom called berries. Yeah, kids can go there. Otherwise, kids can. And part of what Derek Stevens said when he opened Circa, and I don't know if you guys have been, it's fantastic. I stayed there last year. Fantastic. He said he wanted Las Vegas to be like old Las Vegas. And so a part of what Scott is talking about is, you know, a transition to that kid friendly place. And now maybe there's a trend to get it back. It's all about conventions. The Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority ran an ad even saying television ads even saying basically trick your kids into staying at home so you can go to Las Vegas. So it's funny to see how Las Vegas has has swung back and forth. And there's definitely no mob influence anymore. I mean, it's like I grew up calling downtown old Vegas and like I know like some of my rock and roll hipster friends from California. See, Scott's a snob. He doesn't like downtown Vegas. He wants to be on the strip. My rock and roll hipster friends from California that they prefer. They prefer downtown because I because to his point, right, it's more it's more rock and roll. It's more gritty. It's more like the old little bit a little bit sleazy. Yeah, my girl, my fiance girlfriend and daughter, they like downtown better than yeah, I hear that from younger people. Well, I have stage shows, music shows, and yeah, they like Freemont. They like the free they like Freemont Street at Busta's Balls. No, no, no. It is. Look, the Freemont to this day we mentioned a second ago. The Freemont is still in business and down that's one of the Argent Corp Allen Glick casinos. It took me 10 years. It took me 15 years of going to Vegas before I even saw downtown. Yeah, I never went downtown until I remember it as a kid, the golden nugget. I just and the cowboy. Yeah, I remember it as big. Was it big, big? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think this is good. We set the scene of what Vegas was, what Vegas is. So just, you know, for people to understand, there is no mob influence now. Really. I mean, if there is, it's incredibly small and barely. I don't even want to give that notion of lifeline. There's nothing there. There might be guys that have affiliations that are in Vegas doing things, but there's there's no mob influence. No, I think there's still guys that have juice loans and maybe selling Coke or something, but not. They don't they don't influence the politics and industry. But the entire town was basically controlled by organized crime from the 40s to the 80s. And Chicago specifically had representatives that would be fronting their interests on the West Coast. Johnny Roselli, as you mentioned before, a handsome Johnny Roselli was kind of the first one. Capone sent him out there. And then a guy named Marshall Caffano, who they called Johnny Shoes. He went out there. In a, I don't know, this is probably an oxymoron, too, or just Marshall Caffano was, I guess, demoted or taken out of Las Vegas by the Chicago bosses because he was being, quote, unquote, too loud and replaced with Tony Spilacro in 1971. And it's like, oh, you thought that was loud? Yeah. You thought Marshall Caffano was being a cowboy and being outlandish with his behavior and puffing his chest out too much. Well, you haven't seen anything yet. Spilacro hits the hits the scene in 71. Rosenthal had already been out there for a couple of years. And, you know, he's a bull in a china shop. He gets there. And I think within the first three years, there's more murders in that city than there had been combined the previous 30. And he, again, I'm repeating stuff that if you've seen the movie, you know, I mean, there had been no real street level crime in Las Vegas until Spilacro got into town. And then he starts lining everybody up. And it he it bled out of the boardrooms onto the street. Bodies are dropping. People are getting physically assaulted. Yeah. But to that point, the mob's main interest was the skin. Yeah. And one is the one who's like, we could, you know, extort, sell dope armed robbery. Tony, you were there to look after the skin, but you weren't taking that much of the skin. The skin, the bulk of the skin was going back to the Midwest and getting whacked up amongst all the Midwest bosses. Tony Spilacro's job ostensibly was just there to make sure it ran smoothly. But any piece of it he was taking was small, which is why he said, well, why can't I'm out here? It's wide open. Right. Why not come in and take a piece and take a big piece of the street or take take the whole thing? Yeah. Well, as you guys know, he had the whole morning. Right. So that's right. Right. That's a good segue. So he he gets here in 71 and then he starts importing guys from Chicago to become his inner circle, his crew. They became known as the hole in the wall gang. These were all guys or 90 percent of these guys came from Spilacro's old stomping grounds, came from the Grand Avenue crew, came from Cicero. And one of those guys is probably the Indian Shiro, who we're going to get back to in a second. But go ahead, Larry. Yeah. And that's one way that he took over the street rackets. They would literally knock a hole in the wall of buildings and homes and things like that come out with with stolen goods. And that's why they were called the hole in the wall game. You know, yeah, he controlled the street rackets. The violence level picked up. So that's the scene that we go into in the mid 70s. When all these years later, a barrel, a corroded barrel surfaces at the lake and everybody. And the funny thing about it is the Mob Museum does a magnificent job of laying out what the city's history is. But a lot of new people, it really woke a lot of new people up and people who knew the history. But a lot of people like what? What's going on? What is this with the mob killing people, putting them in barrels and so forth? All that back. I did an interview for the Mob Museum this month with Chuck Gowdy of Television Station. I think that's might be where I'm, yes, that was a great piece. That's kind of my jumping off point here. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah, no, no, no. No, go ahead. Jump. But Chuck with the ABC affiliate up in Chicago, a great guy, as you guys know, has been one of the top model reporters in the country for years. And Chuck was talking about that. He even came out to Las Vegas when the body surfaced and, you know, has great sources and we're trying to sort it out. And I think kind of ended up where you are, Scott. So, you know, he's everybody's looking into this. It kind of brought it all back to the forefront on this body surface. And that's what why here we are a year later. Now, let me say, and I don't mean to cut off in hog all the time, but one of the things that you're a guest hog as much as you know, I think one of the things that may be significant. And I think this this may turn the stone a little bit. Think back to, and you mentioned it, Scott, some of the other bodies that have been found boating accidents, drownings, that kind of DNA revealed. Now, according to 2020 story on ABC several weeks ago, one of the things that may a niece of Papas who's been convinced that it's Papas is still involved in this. So according to the story, they're really close. Investigators are to revealing something about this case, presumably from the DNA on this person who was in the barrel. Can I ask you guys about the and maybe you're not qualified, but you guys are crime reporters. Maybe you have some insight. I mean, what kind of forensic evidence are you guys hopeful that can be taken from a body that's been in a barrel underneath the lake for 40 something years? I mean, you just mentioned DNA. I mean, are you guys? I mean, I know you're not forensic scientist, but I would I would ask that the the goal or the the ultimate endpoint where these authorities want to get to if they're going to charge anybody. And I was surprised to see that comment made by I don't know who exactly made it, but saying something along the lines of anybody that was involved in this is like shuddering right now with the knowledge that we're about to find out who it is and we're going to come get you. It's kind of along the lines of what this what this member of law enforcement said. I think the their end game is to try to find the DNA that they can match on Pappas and find other DNA, I guess, whether it be in the in the barrel on the barrel. Yeah, on the on the clothes that they found and then match it if they were going to try to go arrest Paul, the Indian Shearrow and I want to be very clear. I don't know that Paul Paul the Indian Shearrow is somebody that the law enforcement has on. I don't know for sure. My sources are telling me yes, but I don't have this. I'm not saying I'm going to be clear. I'm not saying that if they identify Johnny Pappas, they're immediately going to go arrest Pauli Shearrow. But I've been told that if there are going to be charges, look for Pauli Shearrow to be involved in those charges that they're hearing or they have heard from informants, maybe going back to the 1970s that Paul the Indian Shearrow was involved in, I believe, both the Pappas and the Vandermark Disappearances. So if you can match DNA from somewhere in that crime scene to zero, and you get you, you get a court or a court order to get a Sherrow, you know, swab his tongue. Or I was even saying just testimonials. If you get if you're saying that there may be people that are still around, if they can get them to snitch or confess or something, then then you wouldn't even need the their DNA necessarily. Just just identify. Yes, I agree. But I think that they would do everything in their power to get some DNA, some DNA match. That's not if they identify this Pappas, try to get in within that barrel, find another DNA in sample sample and then tie it to whoever it is. And if Sherrow's name is the one that has popped up to me, I don't think there aren't a lot of those home the wall gang guys that are still alive. Frank Kalata is past a couple years ago. Wayne Matecki apparently is out there somewhere. Larry Newman is going to cut yourself, Scott. No, it's OK. Yeah. These are guys that would have been involved in murders. So Pauli Sherrow is like 85 years old or, you know, is in his 80s. These are these are guys that are at the end of their lives. It is. Yeah, it's a group of people that that are aging and aren't many of them left. Now, as you know, Oscar Goodman, former Mayor of Las Vegas, my lawyer, you know, he insists that every time somebody turns up in the trunk of a car or a barrel or a whole of the desert or whatever everybody says is Tony Spalatro. But yeah, I mean he likes to downplay it. Yeah, it's in his in his interest. He represents Spalatro. Yeah. In fact, there is a statue. The mayor's steakhouse downtown at the Plaza. There's a statue too with the mayor with him. So you've got both sides out there. But I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think of what it made. And they're things we don't know. We don't know where the slugs still in the barrel. Right. We don't know. And I guess dental record. We just don't know what they have. The only thing that's become public unless Scott's seen something that I haven't or the clothing things, a watch apparently. But who knows what else was was was in there that we just don't know about. Another slight digression. I'm interested in both your opinions on this. Why don't you think Oscar Goodman after all these years? I'm not saying you you got to get up and and vilify your former friend and client. But why can't you just acknowledge that like, yeah, the guy killed a lot of people. Like and. I guess I find it strange that Oscar Goodman after all these years still wants to kind of push back on the notion that Tony Spalatra was a wild man going through Vegas killing people. I mean, is that really something that you can dispute? I know that he never got convicted of a murder if he would have. But that's because he was killed himself. Right. I said if he would have stayed alive, I think he eventually probably would have been right. But I just scratched my head when I see Oscar still doing this revisionist history and all due respect to Oscar, who I have a ton of respect for. People ask us to have him on as a guest, but I don't know him. I've never talked to him. I have an honest respect for Oscar Goodman, too. Great attorney. And you know, as he's always said, if people mention more than 20 people, Spalatra may have killed more than why haven't they been able to pin it on him as it was sort of I'm paraphrasing. Right. So he's a really, you know, outstanding attorney, outstanding attorney. Well, my point, my point is that he would have served at the feds. Oh, sorry to cut you off, Scott, but he would have served. Again, I want to put words as about but he would have served the prosecutors and investigators and people like that overreach their their their power extended beyond what their lawful power is. So, you know, who knows how it ended up as Spalatra would lived. But you just have your 40 years removed now, 35 plus years removed from it. I just don't know why you can't be a little more honest if you're if you're Goodman. We had fish on. He did the same. I know, you're right. Yeah. And it is wrong. Well, I think he has said again, I may be wrong whether he said, I think he said that he never Spalatra never told him he killed anybody. I mean, the guy was a saint. What are you talking about? He's based on what he knows, you know, and he was Rosenthal's attorney and Jimmy Chagra. I mean, I found it in my reporting and I guess it's apples and oranges, but I can build relationships with some of these guys and I can like these guys. But I can also sit around on an interview and I would have no problem saying a guy that I like and a guy that I've gotten close to is a sociopath and is a killer. I just don't know why you can't separate it. And it's just reflective of the way Las Vegas is. You look at people, Rosenthal, Frank Rosenthal had a television show. Spalatra, as Scott noted, was active in Las Vegas from 71 deep into the 80s. These people were in town for a long time. There were known criminals and the power structure in Las Vegas didn't do anything about it. Judges, prosecutors, law enforcement people, some tried, some did, but it's almost inconceivable that a guy like Frank Rosenthal could have a television show. Sinatra was on it, you know, a lot of big shots were on it and everyone knew who he was. And to your point, as I'm doing the math in my head, it was about 10 years into Spalatra's run that the cases started to pile up. Yeah, yeah. That's a long time. I mean, it was five years out of it, but it was 10 years and then between like 81, 82, and when he got killed in 86, he had like three or four cases, if not more, that he was facing and eventually he was going to get nailed in one of those. But it took a while to your point. I mean, it didn't look like the Vegas authorities were either they couldn't or there were other, but nothing was really being done for that first decade. We had, not to digress too much, but we had an episode on Detroit drug kingpins and we had a prominent attorney who defended a lot of them. And he's a nice guy. But it was an awkward episode because he's like, I don't even know what we're here to talk about because these are good guys. And I don't know what you guys are talking about. They've never been involved in any murders. The drug stuff, I don't know where you guys are getting that from. So I'm not sure what we're here to talk about. I felt like he was litigating it. And I'm like, Steve, these guys have all been dead for 30, 40 years. But it was a similar pose to what you're talking about. Like, he was a good guy, as far as I'm concerned. So I don't know what you're talking about. Well, you have to respect defense attorneys. And one of the things Oscar Goodman has always said, if people in that community, the judicial law enforcement community, prostitutes community, if they can abuse their power to try to put somebody like accused criminal like Splotrow, then what would they do with any of us? That was always his point. They can abuse their power on somebody that society thinks is vile, but they can also do it on us. That was always his sort of take on the whole role of the defense attorney. You know, I think jumping back into summer of 76, what I think is one of the most noteworthy, and we're going to wrap up here in the next 10, 10, 15 minutes. What I think is the most noteworthy thing, I guess, in those investigations that led to the skimming being exposed and the mob bosses all going to jail was, you have the first skim case, which was related to Detroit, so we know a lot about it, at the frontier, and the guys from Detroit and St. Louis get caught skimming $6 million, but the feds didn't really know how. And then the cases that came in the early 80s to the mid-80s, they figured out how they were doing it. And it all kind of traces back to a wire, and this is also referenced in Casino, traces back to a wire that was in a restaurant in Kansas City where they were trying to get information on a murder that had nothing to do with the Vegas skim, and they overheard conversations on how the skim was being perpetrated. And that's in, I think in the spring of 76, which leads to the raid of the count room, which leads to the disappearance of Vandermark and Pappus. That's exactly right. What happened was the Villa Capri, no longer there in Kansas City on Independence Avenue, I think is where it was. A wire under a table, as you say, there was a mob war in Kansas City. That's what the feds were trying to get some information on. And some names begin to pop up, nicknames. Rose and Fall is referred to as crazy and genius. So there were nicknames being used, and so they put together that they were talking about the skim in Las Vegas. And then at a residence in North, in North Kansas City across the river, at a home that belonged to a relative of Nick Savella, the Kansas City crime boss in those days. At a relative's home, Carl Thomas, who I mentioned earlier, longtime casino executive considered a sterling member of the community until then. And Joe Agosto, who ran a show at the Tropicana, they show up at this residence in Kansas City, and they say, the feds had bugged it. They're cooking meals, somebody's cooking something, and they're chatting. And then Agosto and Thomas, two Las Vegas casino executives, begin to explain to the Savella crime family how the skim works in Las Vegas. That's referenced in the movie Casino. There's a little bug at the top of that Italian restaurant. It wasn't the best scene in the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. The bomb is like yelling at. The bomb is right. Because the character was supposed to be Artie Piscano. The actor was Vinnie Vella. Drops F-bombs. So yeah. Yeah, that. I said freaking head. I said freaking head. That blew the whole thing open. And in lead two, everybody getting suspicions about who the snitches are and this, that and the other. Rosenthal goes to the Game and Commission meeting, blows up on Harry Reid. It just got so volatile. It's a high profile. That conversation that you just mentioned that was on a wiretap was like it must be. I mean, the holy grail. If you're, if you're the FBI and you're trying to figure out how this, I guess it's not incredibly intricate, but an incredibly top secret way to steal money from casinos. And you've been trying to crack that egg for 10, 15 years at that point. And you literally get a hold of a conversation between the two guys that are, if not in charge of it at the very high level of people that are in charge of it and the mob boss of the one or one or two mob bosses of Kansas City are saying to these guys, explain to us how you do this. And they're just going, they're going by, they're going piece by piece. You know, bullet point by bullet point and it's all being recorded. Carl Thomas and Joe Augusto. And that's why I say, and maybe I'm overblowing it. I know there are a lot of significant mob sites around the country. I still say that it's called the Marlowe. The person who owned the house last name was Marlowe, a relative of the surveillance. I still say the Marlowe House in Kansas City, which is still there by the way. The Marlowe House to me is one of the most significant mob locations in the country. I don't know, it's a private residence. I don't know who lives there, but because of what Scott said, that's where that recording where two Las Vegas executives unfolded how the skin works on tape. They didn't know it was being taped, obviously. Right. And then we've had a shameless self promotion. We've had Gary Jenkins on. We talked about the video channel and there's another audio episode with Gary Jenkins. So if you like this topic, you can revisit that in our archives. And then another piece of evidence that that was just a killer and it was referenced in Casino. Tuffy DeLuna, who was the underboss or high ranking guy in Kansas City, he was, I think Nick Seville's brother was the underboss. And then Tuffy was kind of like a conciliary, but they didn't really have a conciliary. And then eventually Tuffy became underboss. That's neither nor there. But when they raided Tuffy's house, they found ledgers. And, you know, he's keeping track of how the money is being stolen and who's getting it. So that leads to these two disappearances. Fast forward 40 years, bodies are popping up. Only time will tell what happens. But I want to ask a question about before we wrap up about environmental science here. Actually, something good for that region was they had an unusual amount of rain and also snow up in the mountains, which is helping Lake Mead. My understanding is that long term, the projections are still that it's it's going to it's going to dry up, but at least in the short term, those are some positive signs. Do you think that has an implications on these investigations? Are some of these bodies going to stay maybe hidden longer than you thought? Scott, your thoughts. I mean, to me, it remains to be seen. I mean, you know, it's a lot easier to dump a barrel in the lake than it is to dig a hole in the desert. But, you know, who knows? A lot have already surfaced. And when they dump them 50 years ago, 40 or 50 years ago, they couldn't have imagined that one day the barrel would be where they dumped it because the lake receded. And by the way, Echo Bay Resort closed some time ago because the water receded. As I said earlier, there were 300 boat docks slips at one point, but the water receded so far that it really wasn't, you know, feasible to get to the water, to the boat docks from the resort. So, you know, are more bodies going to surface? Scott, your thoughts? I mean, who knows what's going to happen? OK, so I think there are about six to eight people that disappeared on Tony Spilacro's watch. Guys that we've and men and women, by the way, that allegedly that are unaccounted for. I believe I'm not saying we're going to ID all six, seven, eight of them, but I believe that over the next year, two, three years, we will identify more than one. I think we'll get maybe two, three murders solved and be able to clear those off the Tony Spilacro murder resume. I just, you mean they'll ID the body and will and then like conjecture that was tied or are you saying actual? Well, there are. There are. I've detailed it quite a bit on gangsta report dot com. I'm pretty sure I've detailed at least six, maybe seven of people that were in the orbit of the Spilacro crew that disappeared between 1976 and 1986. But I mean, are you saying you think the FBI will officially? Yes, idea as this body and we believe this block didn't not necessarily arrest people, right? No, of course. Yeah, that you're right. That's obviously more challenging, but but they will say case closed. I believe that there'll be more than one. I'm not saying it'll be a half dozen, but it's interesting. That makes sense. Plus, there are other hidden in there. The hammers, we mentioned hammers a moment ago. So there were more killers in town. Only time will tell. If I'm Paul Shiro, I'd be worried about this just because of some some previous precedent about dragging guys that are got one foot in the grave to account for old school. Murders. I mentioned, I think on our last episode or a couple episodes ago, Frank Cadillac, Frank Salemi, the Godfather of New England was sitting in witness protection, living a living his best life out in Atlanta. He was eighty five years old around that body gets dug up in Providence and he's pulled out of witness protection, put on trial, convicted of murder. So Paul Shiro did 20 years he first went away, I think in ninety nine ish on a on a big burglary ring, high end burglary ring that he was a part of that was going all around the Midwest stealing stealing millions of dollars worth of jewelry. And then he was convicted in the famous family secrets case, which brought to light the murders of the spolato brothers and a lot of stuff that was going on in Las Vegas. I covered that trial and others shame the self promotion. Go get the book Family Affair that I wrote about that situation. Great book. And Shiro was convicted in that of killing little Malvachi, who was another member of the spolato crew who was out in in Phoenix underneath. Shiro run in travel junkets back and forth between Chicago and Las Vegas. He was a major at a restaurant there and they believed that Malvachi was was cooperating or was going to cooperate. Shiro killed or was part of the hit team that killed Vachi. The splotches were killed like the week after that in June of 86. But I just if I'm Paul Shiro, I'm thinking that there's a better than good chance that if they do ID this body as Johnny Pappas that that Paul Shiro will eventually be. If not charged, he'll be implicated. And I think we're getting close. I think we're getting close. So Larry, thank you so much. Anything you want to plug? No, I but but let me just say to mention that and I forgot to mention it. It is not shameless self promotion to promote Gary Jenkins. The show you guys did with him was fantastic. And I meant to say when talking about the Villa Capri in the Marla House in Kansas City, Gary, as you guys know, Gary's got on his gangland wire website. Gary's got actual audio, that surveillance audio that he that he obtained years ago of the people in the Villa Capri talking about skimming in Las Vegas and in the Marla House. So I'm going to mention that. I'm glad you mentioned Gary because he's got some fantastic stuff. Yeah, Larry, this was great. I'm embarrassed that it took us three years to get Larry on this pod. Larry, you're going to you're going to be a recurring guest. I'm calling it right now. Yeah, thank you. Please, we would love to have you back in the near future. And we could chop up so much of your career, so much of we were talking off off camera about Jeff Gertman, who the great great reporter in Las Vegas who was tragically murdered by a subject of his investigation who was running for political office felt like Jeff was going to expose him and he killed him. We got to talk about that because the trial may be coming up in November unless it gets pushed back. Yeah, I mean, Jeff, Jeff covered the mob. Jeff was one of the two, got hit by a mobster in the mouth. A mob associate at the Sands. So, yeah, I mean, don't get me started on Jeff because we'll be here for a long time more. But we definitely need. I'd love to. I'd love to talk about Jeff. Thank you, Larry. You are. You are the OG OG when it comes to crime reporting in Las Vegas. That's why we went to him. We go right to the source. Him and John Smith, Jeff Schumacher. And a couple others. They do such a great job covering that territory over the years. So thank you, Larry. For for Jimmy, for for Ben behind the glass, we went a little long this time, but we love it. We'll see you next week. Scott Bernstein, OG podcast.