 favorite topics, sexuality. But the thing is when it comes to female desire, it's a taboo. People don't like to talk about it. Or when we talk about it, people think of it as something that's like salacious, something that's indecent, something that's inappropriate. And so we need to reclaim this idea of desire from the woman's perspective, and specifically in Hong Kong, because we talk about many places. Actually, it's a global issue of how we've been controlled, our bodies have been controlled and continuing to be controlled in different ways. But so let's talk about this whole idea of the rights to our female desire. And I have here wonderful Vera Luy from Hong Kong. And Vera has a toy store, toy store, has a sex toy business in Hong Kong. And Vera has a very engaging way of speaking about sexuality with the Hong Kong audience, which I think is a very important approach. So Vera, welcome to Quok Talk. Thank you for having me. So Vera, let's just get a little bit of your background, like, you know, Hong Kong, Brad, give me a little, give us, give people context to who you are. So I was born and raised in Hong Kong. I moved to the state when I was 16, but then I came back because I met my husband. I came back when I was like 23. So I actually started the business when I was 23, after I came back to Hong Kong and, and all because I, I was also growing up in Hong Kong without any kind of sex education. Basically, all we did in school was giving us like master packs. And that's it. No one never talks about the topic. My mom never talks about it. And I still remember when I had my first period. She just gave me the pad, show me how to use it. And that's it. That's the only conversation we have ever had around this part of our body. Was it like a big pad? And then it was, it was like, you know, the daytime use pad. And then she also tells me, Oh, at night, you use the nighttime one. But that's it. Like, there's no conversation about feelings or emotions that I'm going through during my puberty and, and having this like menstruation coming into my life. Like, we don't really talk deep about it. And that's normal. Just for people to know that's normal. Probably not just Chinese society, but many cultures. You don't talk about it. You don't put it on the table. We don't talk about it enough. Yeah. Yeah. And also when I, then I got to the States and I will basically my sexuality started, like my, I was sexually active since I was 17 years old. But then, oh, my kids is in the back. That's good. It's all, see? Wait, you know what? Wait, wait, wait, wait. So I have to interrupt you for there. Because every time when, when my kids were going up and they were asked or saying something, they think it's inappropriate or silly about sex, my husband would just shut it down and say, hey, if we didn't have sex, you wouldn't be here today. Ah. Right. And then I, like, yeah. Exactly. Why do we say think of it as a shameful thing? It's a process. It's a, it's a human process. Yeah. Okay. So I, yeah, I, so I didn't know anything. I was sexually active since I was 17, but still, like, it was all learning from child and era. So it wasn't until I got back to Hong Kong, I met my now husband and boyfriend and he gave me, gave me my very first sex toy that I started exploring my own body. That's interesting. Yeah. So the first time I got it, I was really confused of where to use it because I've never really touched myself. Okay. Well, do you mind telling us what type of sex toy you're talking about? It was like a very small bullet, like a small kind of vibrator that looks like a cigar, like the size of a cigar. Okay. So I got it, I didn't know how to use it. I got it at home and it was like, I was still living with my parents and I was so afraid that they would find out. He, like, making all this noise in the next door room. Yeah. So I hit it until, like, it was like 2am in the morning and they all fell asleep and then I finally took it out. I opened it and I was like, how do I use it? So I didn't know how to do it. So I googled, like, how do you use the sex toy? So they googled and I learned so much. I was like, oh, sex toys were self-pleasure. I was like, I've never self-pleasure. And then what do you find out during self-pleasure? You may find your orgasm, you may find like your own kind of, like, your own kind of pleasure and where you find it, like stimulating, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, like, I have to figure this out. So it was like, I spent an hour studying and until it was like 3 or 4am in the morning, I finally have my very first orgasm in my life. Wait, wait, wait. So you never had an orgasm before that or you didn't know how to do it? No. Yeah. Even though I was sexually active for five years, I still haven't, like, feel anything. Because we're not taught. We're not educated. Nobody guides us to search for that. And a lot of times our partners, and I don't know how to generalize that Asian partners tend to be less sensitive about this stuff, but they're also not educated to bring that attention to female pleasure, right? I remember, do you remember when I had my show a long time ago in Hong Kong, but I had on cable TV, I remember this one lady, our topic was women on top. That was the focus. And this one mother who's been married for over 10 years, she called in, she says, oh my gosh, because of that position, she was able to find her climax. But after being married for over 10 years, she's never had a climax before. And it was like, Hallelujah. You know, like nobody teaches us, right? Yeah, nobody teaches us. The only way that we learn from it, maybe from porn, and there's a lot of false information on there. Exactly. Yeah, it just shows, it's more like an entertainment than the reality. Yeah. So that was it. That was my, that was the climax. This changed my perspective about sexuality. It changed the perspective about how I see my own body. So it really empowers me to be like, hey, my body belongs to me. And also it can give me lots of pleasure. And I can own that pleasure. I don't need to rely on anybody to give me pleasure. And I can learn about my body. And, and as I came on exploring, I find that it's really liberating. So I was like, okay, this is something that I should tell people. But I don't know how I don't know what the format will be. But I told my boyfriend, like now husband, I was like, okay. Wait, when you came on my radio show years ago, were you married already? I think so. I got married when I was 26. So probably. When you're launching, yeah, your business, right? Okay. Yeah. So that week, I was like, we need to tell somebody, like we need to tell people if I grew up in Hong Kong and I didn't know about this, I was just an ordinary Hong Kong girl. And probably lots of people don't know. But when you're exploring, don't you have girlfriends that would you ever talk about sex? Or, you know, like, never talk about this, right? Yeah, we never talked about it. We talk about all kinds of things like boys love relationship. But we really never talk about this. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that Hong Kong has been such a taboo against us talking about pleasure and owning up to it and searching for that? I think it mainly maybe it's because of the culture, like how in your own household, this is not a topic that has been raised out even when the topic comes up. Like your mother or your father will be like, no, no, no, no, we don't talk about this. And it's just kind of discourage you. And also the culture wise, like in the society, if you talk about this, like you got slut shame, or you got like people will be like an ill, like, like, no, this is a fat woman, like. So where does that come from? Why do you think we're slut shamed if we talk about sexuality or if we even think about women seeking pleasure? Why is that something that is considered inappropriate? I think, okay, this is my own personal theory, right? But I personally think that if you can control a woman's pleasure or control her sexuality, it makes her doubt herself. And it kind of makes her also become not as confident or as authentic as she is, or as powerful as a woman can be. Then she just, then she becomes like a secondary citizen in the society. And all the other people can be on top, you know. Yeah, that's part of my theory. No, that's good, because really it does come down to power and control and the fear of them giving up their power. Like what is the threat of a female in power to them? What is the threat of sexual power to a man? Is it they think that we're going to go out and screw other guys? Or is it because it makes them feel less because we have control over ourselves? I think maybe part of it is for some people, for some, especially in this kind of society, like they feel like the only way that they can have power or control is through controlling the other person's sexuality. Like instead of having power individually, they want to control others to gain power. That's how I would put it. And it's not just political. It's also personal. It's also like, for example, in a marriage, like the power that's in between those people also kind of showcase that. But you know, so I dated one Hong Kong guy while I was living here. And I remember he did not know how to pleasure me. I realized it wasn't even a thought. Like nobody educated him or he didn't care to be educated or to can think about the female pleasure. It's not his vocabulary. Right. And it wasn't intentional just to deprive me of it, right? But so do you think that's like the typical, can we assume that that's the general way that a lot of Hong Kong men, you know, embrace or approach sexual relationships? Or do you think it's changing? Or I think there are two sides. One is of course the very like very narcissistic and like, he's basically having sex with his ego more than having sex with his family. Yeah, yeah, I know there's a lot of those people, right? But I've also seen a lot of men, they want to know how to pleasure their partner, and they want to give pleasure, and they want to be part of her her sexuality journey, like whatever she's exploring. Yeah, but they don't have the skills technically and also in terms of communication. They don't know how to communicate that. They don't know how to tell her, I want to be part of it. They cannot put the words out. So it becomes like, oh, I don't know if she wants me to, or if she expects me to, or if she wants me to be part of it. And then, and then also from the women's side, like, oh, I really want him to do this, but I don't know how to tell him. If I tell him or his ego, it all comes down to lack of communication or lack of ways to communicate. And that's like the essence of like the whole Chinese culture though, right? It's the lack of communication. Oh, yeah, yeah. You go to a dinner table, nobody talks. I mean, I grew up with my dad just sitting there and not talking to us, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't love us. It's just like that's the way the Chinese are. And sometimes culturally, we don't understand that it comes from like hundreds and hundreds of years of a certain kind of rude tradition in this distance. I don't show you your emotion. Yeah, yeah. I told you to your elders and also physical touch as well, right? My mom and my dad never kisses me or hugs me. Yeah, me too. My dad's like, he's gonna give my his hand out to us to kiss, to kiss him good night. Good night. Okay. So we're also a culture that is very unfamiliar with showcasing physical or affection. Yeah, yeah. Most intimate relationship, these kind of things also play a part like, oh, I don't know how to show her that I love her. And even though if I want to hug her, I don't know if she wants to create like a gap between the two person. So do you think we need to educate men how to find pleasure from seeing pleasure from the woman? Like, is that part of the thinking that we need to change? Or, you know, how does how do we open up dialogue? I think for, I'm also certified sex educators. So when we talk about sex education in this context, we always talk about how like, there's a few things that people need to learn when it comes to sex education or sexuality. First, it's basically, you know, the anatomy, right? Like, you need to know the body parts. Yeah. And second, of course, sexual health, how to do it safely and helpfully. But also, another part that is always gotten neglected is communication and also how to be in a relationship. Like, these kinds of things are always forgotten when it comes to talking about sexuality. So I don't, I wouldn't say it's only men who needs to change their perspective. I think it's all genders need to be educated in this way. When it comes to sexuality, it has to be consensual. And what we mean by consense is you have to have communication before you do anything or also communication along the way. So it might be like, we may also have a man who has never explored his own body, right? Maybe he grew up in a very traditional or a household or a very religious household. He has never touched himself. And then he, this woman, and they want to explore things together and he doesn't know how to. So it can also be like, in that, that it can also be one of the scenarios. So I would say like, both or all genders have to learn about how to communicate. Also learn about your own body before you engage in a, oh, you cannot expect your partner to know your body if you don't know yourself. So explore your body, learn the knowledge, then communicate this to your partner, and then they will know how to do what to do, show them, and then, you know, have fun together. It doesn't have to be that serious. Yeah. But then wonder, how do you, you know, because some people, like you said, you mentioned religious kind of traditions and respecting that space, but some beliefs make you feel that touching yourself, self-pleasure is an evil thing. Like you shouldn't be doing that, shouldn't be masturbating. It's not, it's not healthy, but actually it is healthy, right? So can we talk about a little bit about that? Well, I also met a lot of people, you know, in Hong Kong, there's lots of Christian and Catholic schools growing up. So this part of, this kind of religious narrative also plays a part in our sexuality as well. But I would say like, in terms of when it comes to sexology, masturbation is actually a super healthy thing in, if you do it in a, in a way that is not like overdoing it, right? Like, in terms of like, I guess everything in life, if you overdo it, it becomes something bad. Anything, yes. But yeah, so in a moderate sense, and in a sense that you are exploring your body, having a connection with your own body. And I don't, and I always say like, if, if pleasure is not something that is, that our body can provide, then how come there's this the mechanism inside our body that can do that, right? And why is it that the female anatomy has a higher sensitivity to climax than a man? And, and then back to historically why certain cultures want to deprive us of it, because they're afraid of this power, you know. Yeah. And, or maybe they feel like this is losing control, I don't know. Right, right, right. Nobody wants a woman out of control, right? Because they don't know what to do with us. So I, I still respect that people have their own religion. But also, I don't think learning about sexuality or learning about what your body likes or not like is going against their scripture, because I have seen so many people coming into their first, I think their first intimate time with their partner. It's usually like maybe they got married, and then they have their first sex. And it becomes a loss of trouble comes from it because they've never seen anyone having sex. That's why they don't know how to have sex. They've never seen another person's body. They don't know the anatomy, and they don't know their own anatomy. And they're just like the blindly supply. And then literally, because you turn the lights off because you don't want to, you're too awkward, embarrassed. So you don't see the anatomy. You don't know what your partner's body looks like. I had, I had, I've had, I met a couple, they're also, they're also like very religious. And they came to our store because it was like crying out for help. Okay, they could like, I'm married for like six months and they still couldn't successfully having their first in the course. So they came to us. And then I was like, so what's going on, you know? And then I asked them questions, I guess, like, and then of course, they didn't know about the anatomy. And I said, so how do you do this? Do you do this in the dark? Or do you do this like with a light on or with all your clothes on and just opening up a little space, right? And they were like, oh, I owe it. And then there's a, I thought, having, having sex, you need to turn the lights off to have sex. I was like, why, why do you think that? And then they were like, but it's, it's how it is in movie. In movie, it's always like turning the lights off. In the bed, because they have never worn any pornography. So in the bed, well, that's probably better. Blanket on, lights off. Under the blanket. Oh my gosh, yeah. Of course they know they have to put some, put something inside another thing. But they didn't know how. And it becomes mechanical, right? Like they don't know the, the pleasure aspect is not in the equation. It's just about, it's scientific, it's medical, it's for the kids to produce children maybe, right? Basically, they want to mate and they don't know how to mate. Yes. The pleasure, like you say, we were gifted with these parts of our bodies to, to receive and enjoy and to explore pleasure. So how do we, you know, but I think another issue is Hong Kong's lack of space. We don't have privacy. Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of pushed us into a way to silence ourselves. We don't express. I mean, of course, culturally, we already don't express. But then if you have somebody in the next door, you're not going to allow yourself to scream out in your orgasm or whatever, right? So it's not. When I was bringing up, I was also like, oh my God, what will my neighbor hear me? You know, because the building in Hong Kong is so close. My neighbor's bathroom is just like, the window is just like, maybe. So technically, they could hear you if you were like doing it in the bathroom thing. And I think the way, I was like, oh, did they hear me? Yeah, so the lack of space, I think the lack of space is actually a very good term to summarize sexuality or pleasure in Hong Kong. The lack of space physically to do this, the lack of space to talk about this, to have conversation about this, and the lack of space to imagine and to create about this. So it really sums up, the lack of space, it really sums up how it is. Yeah, but it gives good context to understanding both cultural and social issues around pleasure in Hong Kong though, right? Because if in the West, we don't have those issues, we just say, oh, yeah, you know, why are so Asian so uptight about this? Why can't we talk about it? But they have to understand that there are these kind of historical and cultural reasons for the way we. Oh, have you seen the Netflix show called How to Build a Sex Room? No, is that a new one? Also, so, so they, they have a show. Okay. Showcase in America or in Canada? I don't know. What's a sex room? What do you mean by sex room? They basically, you know, a lot of people have like in the in the West, they have like a like a like a basement that they can't they don't use or they have an extra room that they don't use. So the the the whole of the show, then it's kind of like interior design, but making it like you're okay, okay, okay. And you can have your sexy moment in it. Is it kind of like equivalent to those motels in Kowloon Tong where people go for those those love motels? Like you just have a room that yeah, but but she styled it based on the couple's fantasy, you know, they have different fantasy or there's different things that they like or like to explore. So the room is really customized to that. So I was like, I was watching that show. I was like, oh, well, I really wish we could build a sex room. And then my husband will say, I will be lucky to have a sex drawer. Oh, and then I was like, oh, like, maybe not just a drawer, maybe it could be a closet. What you can in Hong Kong, you got to adapt. And that's why Hong Kong people adapt so well, right? We the ability is very high. The idea, the concept of improvising, you know, like, you know, if you don't have a room, you go, you go to a, you know, a love hotel for an hour or two. There's like actually a lot of Airbnb's I've noticed people like young couples go there just for, you know, a little time and you have to find your space because what are you going to do? Let social society kind of close you off and deprive you of your pleasure, right? They just give the audience some more content. We have couples who like especially the younger generation, like maybe the 20s or 30 years old, they got married and they, they were, even after they got married, they were both still living with their parents separately. And they will only meet each other during the weekend. Yeah, like, you know, it's really hard to, it's very expensive to buy your own space in Hong Kong. And maybe they can, and also, you know, a 20 something or even 30 years old, they may not have enough money to afford the high rent. Yeah. Some people were still living separately after they got married. Wow. But so to the other extreme is like when you're all cramped into one household, right? And you have kids like yourself, have you ever had experiences with your kids running, coming into your room when you're doing it? I mean, well, I, whenever we do this, we do it when they are not here. Also, because, you know, how it's part of how desire works. So a desire works when you have the right context. Right. So everyone's context is different. Some people is environmental. Some people is mental. Some people is also psychological, emotional, things like that. But for us, especially for me and my husband, when we are in a space that the kids is around, we don't, it's not a safe space for us to explore. And both of us cannot go into the mood. Because then you always have this anxiety of maybe somebody disrupting your pleasure, right? Or even like, because we put their needs first. Yeah. Prioritize their needs. Okay. So when someone is outside crying out for mommy, we're like, oh, well, maybe she was just whining, but then we were like, oh, my God, did she hurt herself? Is she hungry? Does she need water? Because the worst case scenario is you're doing it, you're enjoying it and you're about to climax or whatever. And all of a sudden your kid comes in and says, no, we don't. So yeah, I mean, there's so many issues that we have that we don't, I think that is specific to Hong Kong. I love your metaphor of the space. I love that you have, it's a context to the mind space and the body space and their surrounding. So if you had to leave people with like maybe one takeaway of how to take back female pleasure on both sides on whatever couple, whatever relationship you have, what would it be? Well, start exploring because you'll never know until you start exploring what you like. And also, don't be afraid of executing your fantasy if you do it consensually and safely. And one last thing is I know a lot of people when they start exploring pleasure, they're like, I don't know if I am doing it the right way or if it is really truly pleasure or climax. So I would say whatever you feel is good is good. But don't doubt it. If you find this pleasure, then that's your own pleasure. Listen to your body, right? It tells you. Yeah, it tells you and you trust your God. If you feel right, if it feels right, then it is right. You don't have to be like, oh, the other person is doing like this. And am I doing it the same? Don't think about that. So final final, now we're out of time. How do people look for you if they wanted any? Oh, if you come on our Instagram or Facebook, it's sallystoy, s-a-l-l-i-s-t-o-i. And also have a YouTube channel. It's the same name. So you will find me talking about sexuality, sex toys, sex tips, relationship. And on our Instagram as well, we have tons of funny reels that you can walk through. Yeah, I caught one about you talking about the shower head of my massage. I love that. So we're out of time and no one is going to cut off any moment. But I really, there's so much we can talk about with so much pleasure in talking about pleasure. I want to thank you so much. This is Vera Loy from Sally, Sally's Toys, Sally Coco. And keep it, keep all the wonderful, important stuff you're doing. And I want to end it to your husband next time on his next story. That's a great story. Thank you so much.