 Hello everyone and thanks for joining us. We'll give people a couple of more minutes to join us. We've got people from all over Australia joining us today so while we're waiting can I ask that people type in in the chat which country you're calling from. So I'm from Larakia country and I will start the ball rolling with that. That's great lots of oh that's fantastic really good to see the variety we've got people from everywhere. Hello everyone if you're just joining us we're just waiting for people to come in so please type in the country that you're calling in from. In the chat thank you. All right I'd like to start today by acknowledging that I'm hosting this call from Larakia country. I acknowledge Larakia people as the traditional owners of the Darwin region and I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the many countries that people are calling from today and pay my respect to Elders past present and emerging. We are the NT branch of the Australian Evaluation Society with that Alison Reedy my co-convener here as well and for those of you who haven't joined an Australian Evaluation Society webinar today you know run by volunteers these seven hours are free and we really welcome a diverse audience so so please do share the opportunity with your colleagues. A little bit of housekeeping before we get started if you're not presenting could you please turn your video off for now and make sure that you're on mute and pop any questions in the chat as they occur to you as our presenters are speaking and then we will come to them and have a discussion at the end and I'll facilitate questions. All right and today we are talking about what good looks like in the Barkley designing an evaluation framework for the Barkley regional deal and its collaborative approach and we have two people joining us today from the measuring change working group so Lucy McGarry has been the monitoring evaluation and learning coordinator in the Barkley backbone team since 2021. She has a background in community development research and evaluation focused on indigenous communities and programs across Australia and Pat is a Warromungu woman and chair of the native title group at the Pata Aboriginal Corporation in Tener Creek. She has 35 years experience, goodness Pat, working in the Commonwealth government including on advisory groups to federal and NTE ministers. She's been back home in Tener Creek for the last 22 years and was CEO of Julycury Aboriginal Corporation for 15 years. Pat's now retired and draws on her diverse life experiences and volunteers her time on a range of local groups and boards including the Barkley Regional Deal Governance Table to help support much needed systems change in the Barkley and with that I'm going to hand over to Lucy and Pat thank you both for joining us today. Hi everyone I'm Lucy thanks for the introduction Christabel Pat and I are sitting here in our office in Tener Creek on Warromungu country so I'd first like to pay my respects and acknowledge the Warromungu people of whom Pat is a member and to really acknowledge the work that has been done across the Barkley to support this this evaluation framework we're going to talk you through today a lot of people like a Warromungu and from other language groups across the Barkley have been involved and yeah I really like to acknowledge those people and did you want to say anything Pat? Probably wait until further into the discussions around that again but thank you Christabel for your acknowledgement and welcome. And thanks everybody for joining us today and yeah we'll get started just the opening slide here is the title of this talk what could looks like in the Barkley and you can see the text down to the right hand side of the tree that is in local Warromungu language and that's the vision of the Barkley Regional Deal being translated into Warromungu so the vision for the Barkley Regional Deal is strong but the communities and families together determining their future and thriving in both worlds and so that translation down there is in Warromungu. So this slide is well just acknowledging we're here in Tennant Creek again Warromungu country. Sorry Lizzie I just I just want to interrupt just for a second we've got a message in the chat that someone can't see the presentation can I just make sure that everybody else can see the presentation please can yeah cat you can see the presentation thank you yes all right Robert I'm not quite sure why you can't everyone else seems to be able to see it maybe try coming out and then joining back in but everyone else can see your presentation so please carry on sorry Lizzie. Great and if anyone has any advice on how I get rid of this tab across the top that would be awesome you know see this tab here that shows all the new share if I don't know if there's a way of getting rid of that so everybody doesn't have to look at it is it that one maybe to save all annotation should I try that it doesn't bother me I actually can't see it okay yeah someone also said they can't see the tab so maybe it just depends on them on the set up screen people have got but it's fine for me yeah okay well go ahead yeah and thanks just wanted to say to Pat and I excited about this opportunity to share the work that we've been doing here with others and this photo actually I just want to spend a minute on it we were talking about it this morning this is a tree that's out in the dam which is about five k's north of Tennant Creek and it's one of my favorite spots around here and I realized you know we have we talk a lot here about working in the middle space between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal worlds and I realized this tree is kind of this three pronged you know there's that middle space that that middle trunk there and it's this beautiful strong tree but in fact this tree is sitting in a dam which was created since colonization so the landscape has been changed and essentially you know damaged in some ways to create this dam and it's a bit really a good metaphor for the kind of the context that we're working in here that colonization has changed the Barclay region and this work that we're doing trying to find that middle space is it's imperfect and it's complex and you know sometimes the dam is full of water and sometimes it's empty and it's it's it's muddy and cows go in there and die so it's it's complex and yeah I don't know if you wanted to say anything about that Kat. And probably the other bit around it is the where the dams been built was a sacred site and you know when it was actually you know dug up and you know the wall built there wasn't any sort of discussions with the Warunga people about it and just happened and this was through the the period of where people were being moved off stations to the outskirts of Tenno Creek as well so you know the council at the time decided to do it and not realizing that the the damage to the site so and because land rights wasn't around at the time and and this is the type of things as part of colonization that Aboriginal people have actually had to clear and adapt but yeah just accept that you know this is something that happened and you can't change what's happened so you know like the discussions now is about the name change of the dam you know to give it the significance that it should have but what's important what Lucy's saying is that middle spaces how do we actually get there and how do we operate in that space to benefit the people that we serve? So that's a you know really underlying theme in all the work that we're doing here that trying to to find that middle space that where Aboriginal people and non-Aboriginal people move into that would be both move out of our comfort zones into this middle place to work out how to work better together and create better outcomes so so yes now I'm going to move along except now that my presentation isn't moving along so we seem to just have a bit of a jam there we go we wanted to locate you to well let you know where we are so the Barclay is in the Northern Territory it's an area about the size of the United Kingdom it has a population of about six seven thousand seven and a half thousand people seven and a half and about across the Barclay are we about seventy percent indigenous 82 percent 82 percent there you go cut nose the studs and Tennacreek is the largest town which is about three three and a half thousand three and a half thousand probably more more than two and a half thousand Aboriginal people live in the in Tennacreek it's so and we wanted to let you know where whoops where we are in terms of the language groups in this area so this map isn't perfect I know it's a little bit blurry but I was just going to get Pat to talk to you about the range of different language groups across the Barclay so we've got 11 language groups that were probably a spread across the the Barclay and because of the way the history and policies were a lot of the people actually migrated into Tennacreek after 1968 people were pushed off of stations and community councils and those types of things so as the Watermonger people you know you actually had a whole lot of different language groups that you're living in the same space and you know a lot of years would actually know that where you know policies have pushed people into communities living on somebody else's country and all you have to do is we'll be across the Barclay is what and all the things that are actually going on and what are at the moment and the different language groups that are there Ali Karung is one of those ones where policies push people from all the different language groups down in the southeast area and and the Walpry people that actually moved because of the what's it called the funneson massacre that moved into and living on Keditch and Watermonger country so the conflict has gone on between Aboriginal people let alone you know the non-indigenous people in that space so 11 language groups that are actually living in Tennacreek proper and so we've got to look at ways on how to be you know smooth smooth over that we're actually you know supporting people to become strong within their own families it gives a bit of an insight to what we're actually dealing with here so there's a lot of complexity cultural complexity historical before you go on what Lucy's saying is the complexity is the assumptions that Aboriginal people are homogenous we're not homogenous and you know like everyone's got to be treated as individuals you know like it's accepted when people go overseas that they cater to the protocols or you know they go to Italy or go to Greece they're not all the same so European non-indigenous people will actually accept that as the norm when they travel overseas yet the assumption is when they travel across Australia we're all the same so it's about shifting that talk as well thanks Pat we could talk for hours and hours so we're going to try and keep it a little you know fit within the framework of the time we have I always like to acknowledge the Blue Mountains and the Gungan Garandaro people which is that the country where my husband and three lovely kids are so the purpose of today's presentation so we would really like to give you a summary of the work that we've done here so far just briefly walk you through the steps we'd like to present key parts of our framework to you so that includes our story of change tree which is in the image there on the right that's our theory of change essentially we have a rubric for our principles which are the other key part of our framework and some outcome indicators so these are a couple of the key elements we want to introduce you to and we'd also like to share with you some of the learnings that we've gone through because there's been quite a few challenges and there still are quite a few challenges in this work so really came to share those with you so I'm going to give you a very brief and we won't spend much time on this but the Barclay Regional Deal itself is why we're here or why I'm here and it's I want to give you very brief synopsis of the deal itself for those of you who may not know so these regional deals are something that are quite new the Commonwealth government has started in the last four or five years across a couple of different sites in Australia and the idea is that three levels of government come together and invest money together to develop a region as opposed to funding individual programs or projects so it's kind of a new approach to regional development and we are Tener Creek and the Barclay is a site for one of these regional deals and you can see there's a little bit of a timeline here and this is a process which has been quite contentious in the community because what started off as quite a community driven initiative became a very sort of top down government led initiative and you can see even you know the image on the on the right of your screen there is the list of 28 projects that got funded under the deal so that was a result of the three levels of government coming together they had a brief consultation with the community and came up with these priorities and these initiatives which the community is quite frustrated about on many levels and we also have Stronger Places Stronger People which is the Department of Social Services we have funding through them so they fund my role I'm part of the Backbone Organization which is an independent organization set up to help facilitate the implementation of these projects but Stronger Places Stronger People is all about systems change so it's about the way of working and about not just delivering individual projects but changing the whole system to create better outcomes and I'm going to briefly ask Pat to talk because we could talk for hours again on this about the issues with with this process because this is the government story of the deal but the community it has a story of the deal as well and that's the part that's been missing and in all of this so 2018 we a lot of years would have seen the the media around the incident of the little girl the Aboriginal community rally media ministers and everyone else about what needed to happen to deal with those types of issues the outcome is you know the three government three years the government came together they identified what the projects were going to be some more in the infrastructure development than people support and development so from sitting in in the in the community and watching this develop it really wasn't about meeting the needs of the what the original intent was for the Aboriginal people coming together and took three years to shift the government's table to to change their way of thinking around what needed to happen to one is about being inclusive for the Aboriginal community across the the whole of the balcony so you know that looks good from a government perspective that they keep the boxes but that doesn't necessarily meet our needs and any of those sorts of things so when the change of the backbone team Lee Lucy and Ben and a few others came in work with them around changing what it what it looks like so it's having the Aboriginal input so the different language groups if you can see on on the screen is there the language groups across the balcony but how do they actually fit into the governance table so from us as the native title group we had to fight for representation and because you know there was another group that the minister Scully and actually created that became the voice but they weren't necessarily the right group of people to speak on behalf of Tenerpik proper and be representative of all the people so we had to shift the way that it was actually how it actually evolved and and that took you know over over three years to actually one is to win the minds and hearts of the people that set up the governance table and then get the right people that actually worked in the backbone team to actually see that there was a different way of doing business so the the painting there is the the big the red circles are they're the governance table members so this is the governance of the Barkley regional deal and this is where the the collective impact collaborative work is is meant to take place amongst all these different stakeholder groups so there's the three levels of government part of the native title group the two land councils clc nlc heads of the Aboriginal corporations that's youth NGOs business sector and now for representatives coming from the the broader region and the language groups we will move along just because we want to get to the framework but we just wanted to give you a bit of a context of what we're what we're measuring essentially and why we're here so moving on to the process we went through so when I arrived early last year in the monitoring and evaluation role at the backbone and was tasked with co-designing an evaluation framework with the community so I first set about setting up a group in the community so we called it the measuring change working group it took about six months for that group to come together because I was new in the community you know new white lady in the community talking about evaluation I didn't make you know heaps of friends on the first day so no one wants to talk about evaluations surprise surprise but after six months and Pat was really key in that process connecting you know with the right people in the community so Pat was initially said to me this group has to be majority Aboriginal we need to make sure that if we're measuring something it's all about values they've got to be local community values so we after six months we had it had a group with nine members we also have some resources in that group who are one of them John Gunt are actually who does a lot of work in the Northern Territory in evaluation we also have a couple of government partners who sit there less as sort of voting members or contributing members but more you know if there's something in particular we need they can help us out so we had 10 meetings from July until early this year and the work that we're going to show you has been created across those meetings and just wanted to show you that yeah that photo there is of from our meeting in just a couple of weeks ago and that's a little room who I've been fostering who comes along to meetings as well so we followed these four steps of developing your place-based evaluation framework this comes from Jess Darts framework guidelines which I found really useful because they're so flexible they really are place-based so yeah it was really easy to adopt them as a outline of how we should go through this process so that's what we did so I'm just going to walk you through a little bit those four steps so step one is around scoping out you know what you're evaluating so we the measure and change group met and said right what are we evaluating this this collaborative way of working the context do we actually understand and is the Berkeley regional deal responding to it the governance table that's been set up the Aboriginal Alliance the working group the backbone how effective are they the 28 initiatives themselves are they creating outcomes are they the right initiatives and progress towards our vision and changes that are important to the community now we hit a bit of a bit of a bit of a wall here because unfortunately the Berkeley regional deal didn't have a vision at that point and didn't have principles outlined and didn't have clear community priorities outlined so it was it was kind of a challenge for our group because we were set up to evaluate something that hadn't yet defined those things so we turned from evaluators essentially into kind of program designers because we had to go back to the governance table and say hey look you know before we start measuring what you're doing we need to know what it is that why why are you doing it and what are your principles so we took a few months to do that work with the governance table and with the community but coming back to scoping out the evaluation so what was the purpose of it now my first conversation about evaluation work in the Berkeley Pat said to me it's about truth telling it's got to be about truth telling and that is a constant constantly comes up in conversations everywhere across the Berkeley the importance of truth telling so that really underpins our framework supporting learning and development of the deal so essentially this work has a developmental purpose so developmental evaluation is is kind of you know underpinning what we're doing we also want to provide evidence of what's working and not working and build some community ownership because as Pat has explained you know it's it's been a rocky road so far we need to build the community engagement with the the deal we also want to help build the knowledge around how to do this kind of work in other locations so our audience is obviously for the evaluation we want to report back to the communities themselves we have several funding bodies and partners that we need to report to through the evaluation and also those of you out there who might be doing similar work where we see you as our audience as well who do we need to include and engage with so yes it's about 60 communities and homelands across the Berkeley as you saw on that map 11 language groups we have government partners and their expectations and we really wanted to align our work with existing frameworks we although we want to do something unique and place-based and community-led we also want our work here to be able to talk to other frameworks like closing the gap and frameworks which have relevance across the whole country because we want them to be able to learn from our work and yeah for them to be able to speak to each other so there's also Northern Territory Government social outcomes framework that we've aligned our work with the Erasing Nest framework some of you might be familiar with so yeah we had quite a lot of requirements in a way on our work and we have selected indicators that align or are actually you know come directly from closing the gap for example or others did you want to say something about so just probably you know if you look at the frameworks that are around then if you put yourself into the shoes of you know the Aboriginal corporations and Aboriginal people they're actually responding to each one of those frameworks or whoever's actually judging based on who's paying who when and so you're forever dealing with not only the anti-government but you're dealing with the federal government you know for the same group of people and never the twain should meet in in that space so you know like the discussions early on was around you know this collaborative impact stuff is about how does everyone you know talk the talk and walk the walk to actually make a difference on on the ground and if you if you move into looking at all these frameworks yeah it hasn't worked but no one actually wants to do it differently to ensure that the people on the ground are actually benefiting out of what's being put in place by the government. So a lot of work to do now our context and we might not go into this so much now with Pat just because we're already 30 minutes in but as as Pat talked at the beginning of our introduction about the complexity of the colonial history here which you know more recently includes Northern Territory Intervention communities went from having local Aboriginal corporations running them to having shires you know super shires so local government running them there's there's there's a lot in our context that we need to consider so that's a big part of our framework and what yeah so this is our theory of change which is we've used a tree painting which was done by a local artist and we have a massive canvas of this painting a sort of like seven foot eight foot tall canvas that we take out to communities for our conversations with them and what we I'm just thinking I might go to another slide no I won't I'll stay on this slide I think sorry so we've got our foundations and principles and apologies if it's not quite big enough for you to read but our principles are our foundations so if if we work in alignment with these principles and we have those resources shared vision well resource backbone flexible funding we should be able to deliver those actions and outputs the working groups the government's table community planning we should be able to deliver the Barkley regional deal initiatives in the mid-level of the tree we have the systems changes that we're looking for so they're essentially um brownie people uh setting the agenda telling the story and there's data sovereignty so that's about changing power dynamics in the system who's telling your story sorry go on someone talking sorry I'll bring you back up are you talking christabel no should I keep going yeah keep going sorry I think someone must have accidentally been off mute but I think I've muted everyone now no worries I'm just putting you guys down here so that we can see the the whole tree yeah so we have systems level changes which are changing power dynamics we want policies and procedures and practices and resourcing to change so that they are trauma-informed and actually respond to local needs and values we want relationships and connections to change so that we're actually trusting sharing data reflecting and improving the work that we do regularly and we're also looking at changing assumptions and beliefs so those really deep system level changes so questioning whose lens are we looking at this from and are we actually working as equals in this middle space so the top level is our our five whoops apologies um up in the tree there so the high level outcomes so the five key change areas that we heard from the community that they want to see um so we're going to keep moving so we can cover some of this so these are our five principles which we worked a lot we had quite a lot of workshops we've been doing community planning across the Berkeley and different communities so hearing what what's really important in this work so the community led aspect is you know really the driver here I think and we're not community led you know this is what we're not saying we're doing this yet this is this is what we want to be doing um so working together from the middle space is the second one growing strengths and capability that's actually two way it's about growing the capability in the in the local Aboriginal community but also growing the capability in government partners and funders who come in to learn more about this context and how to work in this context so we need to improve their capability to work here accountability to the community is key and this building trust to to reflect and learn is um yeah really really key so that involves using data obviously so that's some evaluation comes in there did you want to say something Pat no wait your way this is our rubric so to measure how well we are going um how well we are working in alignment with our principles this is still in development this rubric but essentially keeping with that tree metaphor you know looking at what does community leg look like when it's just at the sowing the soil you know fertilizing the soil stage up into when it's a fully fledged tree so we intend to use this rubric as a tool um both a tool itself in that we use that annually to reflect the governance table members as well as working group members asking community members how well are we going against this as well as collecting other data that we can bring um to this framework so this is really key for me actually if we were only doing one part of this evaluation this rubric is the most important you know this really is a quite a principles focused um evaluation and um this rubric is really important still in development we haven't finalized it yet but wanted to give you a sense of it um the five outcome areas that we've identified in the story of change just wanted to show you the where they came from uh we used a range of different data sources to to identify those five outcome areas and they came from community plans from workshops um a thousand voices report was done here in 2018 uh that interviewed children and young people about what's important to them and what changes they want to see obviously in our measuring change working groups we talked a lot about these issues um we've done a lot of range of interviews with governance table members using that most significant change and most significant learning uh format to um also understand what's what's most important uh and from the tenant create youth forum we we spoke to 40 students there so out of those different data sources we came up with five um outcome areas and you might notice that these are quite aligned with other frameworks so the erasiness framework for example but there are a couple of key areas where our framework differs um which we're going to come to but there are evaluation questions which i think are probably not something we need to spend too much time on right now but i am just going to go back um to this slide and i want to give you a little bit of a snapshot and i'm going to take you to another uh screen now which hopefully is not too hard for me to find um my apologies everybody i need to find something and it's behind there where is it i don't know just talk amongst yourselves while i um scramble to find i want to give you a little bit of detail around um some of our how we're going to measure these uh high level change areas so just need to move this again and put that on play and yep move that back up so i'm going to make this a little bit bigger so hopefully people can see so those five high level outcome areas uh the the darker green circles are the out uh the domains i guess a lot of people will call them domains or we're calling them change areas and the lighter green circles are kind of you know what do these look like what what are the actual outcomes we're looking for within those and just wanted to point to a couple of key changes a couple of differences in our framework here in the Barkley is that um with kids and youth are safe and supported uh housing is a really key component of that here in the Barkley so housing is a really big issue here and everybody said you can't measure safety of children without looking at housing and in other frameworks housing sits separately under material basics and that was everybody said no it's we've got to keep that in the picture it's got to be visible um around um safety of youth uh we also another key difference is that um rather than just measuring health as a domain on its own our framework brings health and culture and cultural identity and strength together as one everybody said you know culture is a key part to physical health so we can't separate those so the sorts of things that we're talking about here are having strong connection to country culture family and community good social emotional well-being decreased racism and I'm going to very quickly take you to um to give you a little bit of a sense of because part of our framework that we're really proud of is we've developed some really strong qualitative indicators for measuring strength of culture which is something that other frameworks lack I know in closing the gap there's a measurement around language spoken for example an indigenous language spoken as a measure of strength of culture and we do include that indicator but we've also included a range of other locally designed indicators so I'll just explain this diagram quickly so the big circle there is the the high level outcome um we're saying that these three smaller circles are sort of preconditions essentially for families to be strong culturally emotionally and physically families have to have strong connections to country culture family and community they have to have good social emotional well-being and we need to see decreased experiences of racism for families to be strong and I'm just going to give you a little snapshot so language is obviously a precondition to families having those connections families connecting to country and culture is a precondition and families and communities supporting each other is also key precondition and that's this is one of the areas where we've developed some indicators for example here you can see um we're looking for an increased percentage of people who provided support to their family and community so that might be financial support emotional cultural social physical and this is something that's not counted unless you are receiving some sort of carers payment uh it's not counted anywhere and there are thousands of people working to support their families who give up job opportunities give up all sorts about the opportunities because they're supporting family members and and that that's a real strength in communities here and it's not measured anywhere so we really wanted to to bring out those those elements and we found that other frameworks are often quite deficit focused and really looking at problems in communities so we really wanted to draw in some strengths yeah good keep going and i know we're running out of time so what i'm going to do is navigate back to um the powerpoint and just briefly would love to reflect um our successes and challenges so i'm going to put the slideshow back on and i'm really interested to hear from pat actually what she thinks the successes of this work being probably the um the first one is the re-shaving structure of the governance table um at the beginning it was the government and the business people sitting at the table making decisions on how um the funds were actually going to be distributed um in relation to the um they call the 28 um strat initiatives and then the other part of it is the bringing in so now we've probably got about 70 percent Aboriginal people sit at the governance table so shifting from just having two to um you know it's about 14 of us now i think that's without including the alliance the Aboriginal alliance group and so that you know you're having a bit more of a um you know the value i suppose of the Aboriginal voices making decisions that impact on Aboriginal people the other part is um having the ability to work with um is it the agencies um to shift the way that they perceive what's what's normal and do you want me to give the example about the abuse justice i reckon we should keep moving just because Pat's got some great examples of some positive changes yeah so it's about maintaining and shifting um how people actually operate and so when you um work in the middle space then it's about um everyone is is equal and then you know we all shift the way that we interact with different people if you want to build relationships but you know for a long time the assumptions were that um information is power therefore we've got to shift to actually move in line to the way you know government you talked earlier around you know the policies and everything else the government policies are what drives a lot of the um people that are employed and that those policies don't necessarily meet the needs of the people but um and those policies belong to the agencies not necessarily the people they serve so it's about shifting that and what I see as part of all the work that Lucy and and the team have done is actually helping to shift and it's actually the the ability to measure that shift pool the people that are actually employed across the Barclay to to work in our space um it's not about us fitting into um the way you know the bureaucrats and mainstream operate in that space thanks Pat and I just want to reflect with you quickly um in terms of the successes of this evaluation work so far um we have helped establish a shared vision and agreed principles for the work which wasn't there before um the work has been led um by an Aboriginal working group and had really strong Aboriginal voices and I've said before that I think the term co-design is used to describe all manner of um sins and uh really loves to use it and um I think we've Pat said last week this is co-design so um if Pat's calling it co-design I'll call it co-design um and my screen seems to have frozen a little bit so we've included voices from all across the Barclay and different age groups we've described what positive change looks like according to these voices we have created meaningful indicators of change that are unique to to the Barclay while at the same time we have linked these to existing frameworks so I see that as um really key achievement obviously lots of challenges to one of those being you know it really takes time to do this work trust you know just the fact that um you know the time has taken Pat and I to get to know each other there's a lot of people coming in and out of communities like Tennant Creek uh and relationships take time so we have a lot of stakeholders with different expectations too in our work so community you imagine you know small homelands with three houses and no wi-fi and people speak English as a fifth language and then we have Commonwealth's um government representatives as well so we have a lot of different stakeholders um there's been a push to get this done quite quickly and obviously there's that that tension between getting it done and and getting it right and that certainly you know people wanted this framework in three months and um you know a year and a half later we're just we're just getting there um the evaluation group also had to do some design work as I mentioned earlier we kind of work and that that's an uncomfortable space to be in it's they're we're not quite authorized to be designers so we had to navigate that those power dynamics essentially that um to do that work and uh yeah should we be measuring outcomes and should we be focusing on our foundations and this was something we've talked about a lot in the measuring change group people said no we just need to get the foundations right let's let's it's not about setting distant outcomes because they're too far away we need to focus on the foundations so we're we're really confident we can actually do both in our framework so many indicators we've got to narrow them down we've got way too many so we've got to somehow simplify them and take out the most just you know focus on the most important ones because you know you can have 50 million indicators but we've actually got to use them and the complexity of the early stages of the deal still really impacts on us the community doesn't necessarily believe in the potential it has so uh that's hindered our work and of course resourcing we're all we're all stretched um yeah so our next steps you can see there one of them is about developing a team of community researchers here so this work can be ongoing and sustainable so really keen to hear from anybody who's doing that work in communities um I'd really like to learn from what that looks like in other places and how we can support something like that in the Berkeley and there's my contacts and first of all I know we've gone over our time importantly but thanks everybody and sorry did you want to know you're right yeah thank you thank you both you have done well and you know I was going to give you until 10 to so you're actually a few seconds ahead by my clock well done um there's been some very nice comments in the chat around the theory of change uh change um and the indicators and I did see someone applaud when your rubric was up um so I think there's a lot of interest we have um had quite a few people asking if you could go back to that slide with the key evaluation questions just to give a little bit of extra context um and we also had a question about whether there is a report or anything that people can go to to find out more about this but my understanding is it's still pretty new so I'm thinking you probably don't have anything yet um yeah we don't have a report yet um these so I'm just trying to find the evaluation questions um no no report uh these slides are probably uh the place where you know things are most um you know culminated where we're pulling things together so I'm happy to share the the slides and include a couple of the snapshots of our indicators but people are welcome to get in touch with me um if they want further information but uh sorry I'll just put this slide back up so you can see these key evaluation questions are actually largely informed by the stronger places stronger pair stronger people will email rainwork which is something we need to report into as they wanted our funders did you want to just talk us through a little bit what the key questions are maybe just just read them read them out yeah sure so I mean obviously the foundations and resources um you know if that's a big assumption to make that we actually have the resources to do this work and that we are following our principles um so those first two questions are really important to me probably the most important um the quality and reach of our engagement and activities so that's around uh the governance table the working groups the backbones work our ability to engage the community and communicate effectively um those system changes yes what what system changes are we seeing are we seeing any changes in power dynamics are we seeing that brownie people are telling the story here um or is it the same old with just new language um instances of change so I like this about the email um framework which talks about because you know obviously those long-term changes those high-level population outcomes are going to take a very very long time and we need to look at instances of change in the shorter term to help um well help keep us all optimistic and positive and doing this work um yeah and that last one being around yes you know to what extent are we achieving those those intended outcomes um lots of lovely comments in the chat I think people are just really grateful um to you for for sharing your story uh and for sharing the lessons learned um along the way um Pat you mentioned before an example about positive change and I think it'd be really good to talk about that okay so um part of the Barkley regional deal was you know it was just after the um Donnell um report and they were looking at the youth justice um facilities you know to be built across the the northern territory and the anti-government actually came and um they're sitting at the governance table and they're saying this is the not only the principles but um the facilities and what it's going to be you know the design of the facility and then this is how the programs can be delivered and what we did you know from the Aboriginal leadership group is actually pull that back and work with the territory government and anti-families to shift not only the design of the facility but the program itself and how it actually to be monitored and who who is actually going to oversee that even though the provider will actually report back to the um to the funding body it is actually um aligning to the Aboriginal um leadership group in how um the reports are actually going so what's inside is actually going to be driven by the leadership group um and not not in the northern territory government so they've shifted and agreed to having kind of like a hands-off approach to how how it will be done so it becomes community driven community owned and and you know so that was a real shift it took took a while to um get the senior bureaucrats to to let go you know because it was their program it was their money this is this is the talk and um so we had to shift it to say well these are our kids and it's about how do we actually influence the change of behavior what do we need to build and how do we build capacity and support for the young people for the future so it wasn't about a government program it was about how do we um shift it to the needs and and one sort of the young people that are going off the rails type thing so um from the native title group we just agreed to um sign off on the indigenous land use agreement with the Territory Families and that's being done today should be there and um so so I just been talking to Lucy earlier that to talk to some of the the team from Territory Families and get feedback from them about what the process was they were in the room with the the native title group yesterday it was really positive in how they had to um challenge but whereas sitting in the room you could feel that there was a lot of resistance because you know they so used to being in control of that type of information and you know talked about the you know my experiences working in in the bureaucracy so you know if you've got somebody that understands that then it's easier to challenge you know the system as it is and we don't get very many Aboriginal people that have got that that type of knowledge on how um governments work so you know so it's about how do they shift the way they they're going to um do business along this you know like how they're measuring that the change is actually making difference on the ground so it it is probably one of the you know it's the first project that will be up and running you know so they'll start the works and those types of things as part of the deal and it'll be uh probably a showcase you know like over the next you know six months or so and probably the other one is um recall the the radar um the as part of the deal there was you know like the funding that came in as part of the um Bureau of Meteorology of actually building a radar um thing in in Tenet so they had to negotiate with the the native tidal group around a lot of land and in talking to them that you know that that wasn't an identified need by the Aboriginal community and um so your past to listen everyone else is actually had to say that this is you know going to be built but it was the cost of that building which is where we as Aboriginal people are actually you know sucking it up because it's a lot of money being invested for an infrastructure and that's going to you know be put up on the hill that's going to be in the horizon for every day type thing so is it something that we need or is it something that somebody else needs so there's still some conversations that need to go on in that space but the great thing is for example we met with the Bureau of Meteorology yesterday and they're really because we have these principles lined out for this work for the but the regional deal they came to us and said okay so we know you have some principles what's but can can you tell show us the framework that we need to work within what are the indicators we need to be reporting against and um you know for example they want to put up some boards that tell the story of the the place the site where they're building the the weather station and that's that's one of our indicators is um you know instances where truth telling is taking place so it's that even though it's something that we can't change the fact that the the money has been allocated to something like a weather radar we can include them in the the framework of how we need to work together and I'm just going to quickly say that the most significant change and most significant learning interviews have been a great way of capturing these types of stories so although we might not see the overall system changing as examples of the system changing as we go. Thank you both and I am conscious of time there's lots of lovely comments in the chat and I'm conscious there are a few questions that we haven't got to Lucy thanks so much for sharing your contact details on the end slide I think there probably will be a couple of people in in the chat who take that opportunity to follow up with you and we'll see if we can get a couple of snapshots of some of the parts of the slides as you talked about to share with people because there has been a lot of interest and hopefully we can put the recording up to to help share this really important work and I would just like to wrap up by thanking you both so much for taking the time today I really appreciated it and I can see that lots of people in the chat have really appreciated it as well so thank you thank you both so much and we've got someone in the chat asking if you can come back and give an update in a few months because I think it'd be really good to to keep telling this story thank you both so much thank you everyone for joining us and we will follow up.