 All right. Hello, everyone. And thanks for coming to the accessibility certification discussion. I am Lee a brochure of Nels and the accessible publishing and resources coordinator and some a coordinator as you may have guessed by now. Today, well, I'll be moderating this panel, we're going to have about a 30 to 40 minute panel on accessibility certification followed by 10 to 20 minutes of Q&A. And we'll talk about some of the key developments and challenges happening around accessibility certification. So we're going to start off with a round of introductions in the, you know, interest of time and you can just be the brief one you know your name organization that kind of thing. And don't forget to everyone who's here that full bios can be found on accessible accessible publishing website. And so I'm just going to go in the order that I see people on my screen so it's Jessica first Jessica can you introduce yourself. Yes, I can. Thank you, Leah. My name is Jessica Albert. I work at ECW press, which is a trade publisher here in Toronto that publishes a variety of different types of content and I head up our digital, all digital efforts so that accessibility ebooks metadata audio book distribution ebook distribution. Excellent. Thank you so much. And Elizabeth. I'm Elizabeth. I'm a technology specialist at eBound and I actually work with Benetech on the eBound Benetech certification project, and I am also trained at the Benetech certified. Thank you so much. Charles. Hello everyone Charles Lapierre, he slash him. I'm the principal accessibility standards and technical lead and our global certified accessible program here at Benetech, and I also am on a number of different W3C standards bodies, working on all of this. Excellent. I'm getting a message from a different room. Oh, my apologies. Apparently, people will think I'm important. I'll do myself next. Thank you Charles. I'm Leah Rocher as I said I'm with Nels I'm also working on the on the eBound pre Benetech pre certification certification projects which has been really interesting. So that's kind of my certification zone. I will have Lee next. I'm Lee Nash. I'm the publisher with invisible publishing where a small not for profit literary publisher based out in Prince Edward County, Ontario. I make all invisibles ebooks. Yay. And I've been making them, I've been making ebooks for various small presses since 2011. Awesome. And in yellow last but not least. My name is Daniela Levy Pinto, and I am the manager of Nels, and you will know what Nels is doing in the space. We have heard. All right, thank you so much everyone now let's we can just dive into the questions because we've got a bunch of interesting ones. So first up, I'm going to hear the publisher perspective. We've got a lot of publishers in this room I think, in addition to you to. So the first question, and we'll sort of leave first. What were the biggest challenges you came up against when you were working towards certification. Well, I first want to give a shout out to Nels because I think we were really well prepared for it in a way because we'd done, we'd undertaken the Nels audits of our ebooks in the past and that was sort of a good training ground to get to the certification process. But for me the biggest challenges where there was still a lot to learn. You know it's, I find it hard to stay on top of things and, you know, for a long time I was, I had no idea how area worked. For example, and so it was a bit of a learning curve to get up to speed on those things and to see how and why they fit together with, you know the stuff I did know about making ebooks. So there's also a very lean operation, both financially and human resources wise. So timing is, you know, the timing to actually get the work done, and to go back and revisit. I wanted to do a good job. So finding the time to do that is always a challenge I think for anyone taking on additional projects in this industry. So that's a, that can be said for a lot of publishers, a lot in Canada for sure. Jessica do you have anything to add. Yeah, that those are all challenges that I faced as well. I felt like when I started the certification process with Benetech that I was pretty informed on the technical side of what I needed to do in our books and I felt like I was making accessible ebooks when I started the certification but there was still so a lot of things that I learned from Benetech and Charles so it was it's the information on best practices maybe not like the information is out there it's just you don't know what to look for if you don't know you have to look for it. So I think I did a good job of like laying foundation for myself but I really did need the feedback from the experts, more so than I even thought I would. Another challenge that I ran into is just testing a variety of content so as I mentioned ECW is a pretty varied publisher we do a lot of different types of books, and we'll just take on a new type of book altogether every season. So we really wanted to give Benetech a good range of our content because it is so varied. And that made it difficult because our second book had features that were totally different from our first book. The things we learned in the first book were when we did the first book were great, but they didn't necessarily all match what we would then have to do in the second book so it was really great to have the the breadth of the information that we got in the end but I think it took me it took us a little more work than we thought we thought after the second book we would breeze through but we were encountering things that we didn't necessarily encounter in the first two books or the first book. So you're making everybody work hard, got to balance it out. That's excellent. Yeah I think, I think that speaks to a lot of the challenges so I appreciate that. I'll have another question for for the both of you and then we'll move to other people but go back to Jessica first was the process worthwhile it sounds like it was but I don't know if you have anything to add. Yeah, I mean for the same reasons I why I was challenging is why it was worthwhile. I mean, on top of that one of the challenges that that is very difficult, especially as Lee said for publishers who don't have a lot of human resources to put into this this topic it's a large topic and it's difficult to keep up with. One of the most worthwhile parts of the certification process is that once you're certified you, you benefit will then send you all their technical bulletins will keep you in the loop of what has changed and what best practices are changing and it changes make way more than you might think like the dynamism of how how much has it I've had to incorporate since we were certified about a year ago. I've done quite a lot. And I forgot to mention in my introduction I also have worked with ebound and Bennett Tech as a certifier. So I got to sort of see the behind the scenes of how these things, how the best practices are changing and what makes it into Charles is technical bulletins that he sends his publishers, and just the knowledge that you don't have to like have your finger on the pulse accessible publishing best practices as much as you otherwise would have because Bennett Tech is doing that heavy lifting for you, and all of their information is vetted by the experts experts in the field. So that was one major reason why it was super worthwhile. That's very interesting. Lee do you have anything to add. It reminded me Jessica that there was a change a practice changed in between two of our e pubs. I was like, Why, why was this not flagged for me in the previous version, just to speak to the speed with which things do shift. I, it was totally, it was really cool to learn. I really like learning new things. But it was also, it gave me a better sense of how to put the books together and it made me, it's made me more thoughtful about the publishing process in general I think, in terms of how we can present content to our readers and, thinking through the ways in which, you know that's sort of extended out now to our website and sort of other technical practices that we work on as a team, which has been really nice to see benefiting us in lots of ways. Perfect yeah. It's great when it kind of has a ripple effect across other situations. I think now I'm going to turn to the, which I think you kind of starts will lead to you know, but improving your website and that kind of thing, but I want to talk a little bit about the business case for certification. And I think maybe I will go to Charles first. I have actually four, four points to bring up on on this specific question. According to Yale University research over 20% of the population has dyslexia. So this is a huge audience, not to ignore. But if a person can't read your book, they're not going to buy it right print disabled readers look for accessible content that they can read in their preferred way. And if your books aren't accessible to them, then they're going to have to shop elsewhere. And I think I would argue that for those in the higher education markets colleges, universities are starting to add accessibility requirements for classroom content. And depending on your publisher's location, producing accessible books might be a legal obligation. Think about the European Accessibility Act, you know that was talked about this morning. If you want to sell your books in Europe, you're going to have to make them accessible. Producing accessible ebooks helps publishers reach more readers all and sends a signal to your readers that you're invested in their experience and want to produce materials that anyone can use because as Christina mentioned, if you're creating an accessible book, it's not just for the disabled, it's for everyone and makes a better reading experience. And the point is that the E pubs accessibility metadata is starting to be highlighted in bookstores, such as vital source and bookshelf, and book, vital source bookshelf or red and red shelf. So having your books being accessible and have that metadata in there will help you sell your books to more people when they start promoting this. I think there's one goose lane actually in Canada who the publisher who just got certified. They're actually putting our gold seal. You know GCA certified right on the cover page. So that is just awesome. And again, great marketing materials to help, you know, to help sell your books. So, thanks. That's a lot of sense. I think Jessica had some input on this one. Yeah, and I mean it's more it's like anecdotal proof of exactly what Charles is saying which is that we, we do at ECW we do some corporate projects. We started creating materials at ECW to sort of help us pitch our accessible formats to our corporate clients just so that they understood the value at that of what the audience, what audience they're going to reach how it's going to increase their, the number of people who can access the book. For example, we did a book with a bank and they wanted to make sure that every employee at the bank could access their content in some way, and we were the only publisher that they were talking to that could guarantee that we got that client because we we have discussed accessible formats and we've seen that trickle down into our regular trade publishing as well. Conscience conscientious authors want to have their book have as wide a reach as possible. They want to know that anyone who wants to read their book is going to be able to and have a good experience with it. So we're, we've created materials and brought that into our pitch during acquisition when we're trying to attract authors and it has been effective. And that does make a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing that. I'm Daniela I'm curious if you can talk to the business case a little bit. Yes. To complement what has been already stated, I think there's also the reputational piece Charles alluded to this a little bit when he was talking about publishers carrying and taking users needs into account. I think certification is important. Also to build trust among the readers. And also another point. Absolutely some, some publishers and some systems are beginning to expose metadata. But I think with the partial use of metadata, like, we need to do something. I know we're not talking about metadata but I think it is super important to ensure. I don't know if perhaps through the certification. But it's some, you know, some something can be done collectively to push for metadata to be exposed otherwise. How are these books going to be discoverable and Charles already said it, but Europe, if you want to sell the content in Europe, you will have to do this and certification in this case would be indispensable as part of the business case. Yeah, I think some some of us might have to stop by the metadata working session tomorrow. Elizabeth, do you want to speak to the business case a little bit and kind of the event side. Yeah, I think a lot of points have been covered but I just kind of wanted to go back to something that Jessica said earlier just not like you have been a tech to rely on help you keep you up to date. I think that the certification kind of creates a community of amongst publishers you have resources you can talk to other publishers about their experiences. So you're not just alone and trying to create accessible EPUB, especially when the Canadian government came out with the five year accessibility plan like it definitely helps to have guidelines and goals in place and support within the Canadian publishing community. And one thing we've definitely noticed is that as we move into digital marketplace with COVID and the pandemic, and more purchases and loans are happening that the certification help differentiate good quality books because they are prone to fewer areas and they have cleaner features and you know like what you're getting. So that's all I say. Appreciate that thank you. My next question. So, I think we've been focusing a lot of units and the benefit certification but I want to open it up to like more general certification and I'm going to start with Janiella. The, there's an alternate approach of individual file certification which is, which you know it's kind of what la is doing like they do look at every each and every single book. So I think to like kind of the benefits of that approach. And I'll ask Charles after but yeah I just want to talk about if there's space for individual file certification. Sure. I think it's, it's an important question. Ideally, in my mind, we would have to types of the two types of certification the workflows is important for all the reasons that have been mentioned. But we've, I think, or a lot of us have known about either companies that have been certified evil producers or publishers and something falling short on the file, either images with incomplete descriptions or something that is not reflected in in the certification. So, in addition to this, which of course is super important to the users, knowing the specific are that the specific features they need would be present. So general certification would give a lot of flexibility in the Canadian context, especially with so many independent publishers with different capabilities. It would, it would be useful for that. And maybe if something changes is a practice if a practice practice changes, you know it doesn't affect the whole, the whole publisher, like, there's a value in assessing and noting individual files. If a publisher is not certified, but there's a need for files. I do see possibilities and situations for individual certification. I think I'll leave it at that for now. Great. Thank you. And yeah, Charles, I'd love to hear. I'm sure you've thought about this. Yeah, part of our certification program, we start off with individual files, right? But we're trying to certify the publisher workflow. And that's why we're we want to see like two or three books coming off. And then, yeah, we know that the publisher is doing the right thing because to scale this, it's just we can't, you know, if your publisher is doing like 1500 books a year, and I have to look at each one and it takes me, you know, three to three hours to do that. Like, it just, we can't do it. Like, it's going to take, you know, just an incredible amount of money and time to do that. So that's why we have to do, you know, more of the workflow. And, but we do do spot checks. And, you know, Jessica's just gone through the certification spot check, you know, recertification, and, you know, there's still issues. Like, we still find issues. We help, we work with you and, and we get the, you know, because things change workflows change on you, you're making new content. So, yeah, that's, you know, so we had there can be a place, especially for small one offs. We do that. A friends and family type thing for certain publishers don't have a lot of money. And we just do like a higher high level and we tell you, yeah, this is, you know, what you're doing right and wrong and, you know, but, you know, folks like Lillia there in, in Italy, they're doing it book by book, right. I just if, which isn't great, but I just for scaling it just can't, you know, it's just a non starter for most, most public like most folks that is trying to do a type of certification like this. So anyway, that's my two cents on that. Thank you. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to your sense makes sense. Um, so I think I want to ask Elizabeth now about, so we've been talking to you know to Jessica and Lee. So you guys are both doing in house ebook production, but there's a whole other piece of the pie which is what I think something like 70% of the publishers are doing which is outsourcing the production of their work. So that kind of comes with its whole own set of challenges when it's not you just being like okay I'll just change these these items in my workflow so having worked, you know with a bunch of publishers in the Benetech certification ebound certification program. What, how are people. Are you seeing people deal with that in different ways or how is that how are people working with their outsourcers, especially if they're not Benetech certified outsourcers. Alright, so we've had many publishers in the program that have outsourced their work. So first off, there are vendors out there that are Benetech certified so they would understand the requirements and they're familiar with the standard. But if you do work with the vendor that is not certified is definitely achievable it just comes down to communication, making your expectations upfront in terms of the quality of the work that you expect from them. It also helps to have someone in house who will review the work coming in from the vendors to make sure that they're meeting no standard. Also, you can share the reports that you received from Benetech that outlines exactly what needs to be changed directly with the vendors so they know what they need to do. It's just like communicating that the changes will be applied to all new ePOPs going forward. But it's definitely doable I've seen a lot of publishers that get certified with outsourcing their eBook protection. Excellent thank you so much and sorry I just sent you a message Elizabeth by accident, it was to the wrong person I apologize. There's a lot of people who are outsourcing as well and we've seen some people send kind of our report to their outsourcer and they like commented on each thing they're like oh we'll do this from now on oh we'll do this from now on. And I wish I was like, amazing. And then other people are a little bit harder to work with so yeah it's an interesting challenge itself. So my, my last question I think before we turn to Q&A. There's two to choose from so let's see what happens. I'm going to pick random. Let's talk about what are the, well no how sustainable is certification that's something I really want to ask about and I'm going to start with Lee because you, you know you said that you're, you're the one, you're the champion of eBook production at your place so what happens, you know, to invisible publishing without Lee Nash. Well, I don't want to get hit by a bus so if you could all knock on wood for me that would be great. Great start. We do have other people in house who, who know the basics of eBook production so we're very big here anyway at no one should be indispensable which I think is generally good life advice. So, you know, if it ever came down to outsourcing and that kind of thing, you know, shifts and workflow happen all the time. But for us, the biggest piece is like, we want to maintain it we want to do a good job we want to keep meeting the standards and so revisiting older eBooks again it's the maintenance of that backlist that to me stands out as the big piece going forward. As standards change. Again, the, the documentation that Benetech sends out is fantastic. It's just a matter of building now into our own workflows the time to keep, you know, to keep those books updated. We're, we're relatively small operation so fingers crossed it'll take a while before it becomes problematic but again, there's all sorts of maintenance things that we do anyway with our metadata. So it's, it's a matter of just taking those practices going forward but we'll see. They tuned. Yeah, I like it. Jessica, what how do you feel about the sustainability of of workflow certification. It's one of the really great points. Just to add to that. The great thing about having Benetech as a partner is that in the end it actually does save you time because you don't have to do the work. I mean if you're interested in accessible publishing but you're not certified you still have to keep up with best practices. You have to do your own, and you have to do the research yourself so in that way it saves its time to be certified it may have taken us more time upfront, but as time goes on it will save us more and more time, because we have been a tech helping us keep, keep up with like keep to the standard. And doing the annual review that Charles mentioned, I owe him an email about that but it's been a busy week. That really does help you to do a real live test if have you been keeping up with those best practices and those standards. So it is difficult to continue to make changes to your, like to your production workflow. You do have to be conscious of it a lot, and that is that can be a difficult thing for a small company to do and even for a large conversion house because the larger you are the more diversified you are the harder it is going to be to keep up with the standards as well. It's hard for everyone in the chain, but if you're doing accessible publishing at all. Those things still apply, you just now have support structure to deal with them. That makes a lot of sense. Um, do any of the other panelists want to speak to the sustainability of certification model. Good on that friend. No problem. Do it. So the next, I think good question that can go to anyone. And we will start with Charles on this one. What are the biggest challenges that you're anticipating in this kind of area of work. I was thinking about this and I think worldwide it's getting, you know, countries to like the, I forget the panelists that said that to get the country to, you know, to adopt accessibility and to stand behind and, you know, it's not rocket science to create an accessible EPUB book. So, you know, we're doing it now. We know what you have to do. It's just a matter of putting in the time and money to do the right thing. And if you put it in your workflow, then, you know, the only harder part is those accessible image descriptions. Other than that, everything else should be just plug and play and just crank out a new, another accessible book. And if you don't do a lot of images, you only have to deal with the, like the cover page. You know, and, and there we have a template that you could probably automate as well because it's like the title, you know, cover column title author edited by whatever, you know, there's a, there's a template for that. So, I think the biggest thing is, you know, the adoption and, and maybe the little publishers, the bigger publishers have the money to do it. So it's the little publishers finding, you know, but, you know, with things like the Heritage Foundation, you know, the funding there, which is awesome and shows great Canada is supporting all of these publishers and making accessible books. They get it, you know, and so definitely applaud Canada for doing that my, you know, I've born and raised myself. I'm here now in the US but yeah from Ontario. I went to Carlton University myself so definitely Canada is near and dear to my heart and really applaud with what you all are doing there to promote accessible publishing. So thanks. Thank you, Charles. Um, does anyone else want to speak to kind of the major challenges you, you foresee. I did that that Charles's answer did spark a thought, which is, I mean Charles is talking I think you're talking a lot about publishers you've worked with globally in the US. And it feels larger scale than like what Lee, and I am doing and what a lot of the publishers that you down are working with are doing. Um, so it's difficult to say for me personally that it's just like once you add it to the workflow it's one and done. And you know how to do it, it can be difficult to because my workflow isn't automatic you know my workflow has a lot of human intervention in it, and I'm sure at least as well. I'm not perfect so you know we we do use a much more extensive QC process now like a quality check process and we use extensive checklist to make sure that we're thinking of absolutely everything. But the challenge is like the human component and for smaller publishers, you don't necessarily have the resources to automate your workflow. That is something I try to do at ECW but you know we can only do it to a certain extent. Yeah, that's it is a difficulty that we face is is the mistakes that I personally can make that that would then make the book maybe even fail and access like a certification check because I made once I missed a simple semantic thing that I should have tagged and then that was okay, you know, and yeah. Yeah, fair enough. Definitely. Yeah, small publishers have, you know, don't have the resources to make a automated back end that just you put a you know your transcript file in and it comes out with a you know near perfect Eve up at the end. That would be the ideal solution I guess but we're not here in the mean streets of in design and text editor is okay. That's I just add to that like there are ways to do it basically for like all the tools I use are for free but are, I would I would classify our ebooks as bespoke at this point, given the amount of, you know, kind of back end work that goes into them and we're lucky because we types at our books in house. A lot of publishers don't even types at their books in house so the quality of their design files to add another layer of complexity to that process going forward. Yeah, small publishing as it's a lot of a lot of challenges just in and of itself. One point I would like to make is that for a really small publisher or brand new publisher that doesn't have any tools available, just using Microsoft Word with daisies word to e pub. You're right there you know you could at that can create an accessible e pub if you start with an accessible word document with any image there that has all text etc and tables defined correctly or what have you but anyway just not throw that out there as a possibility. Excellent hot tip. Well, thank you everyone. That's kind of the panel session but we're going to go right into q amp a and actually I have a, I'm going to call her a special guest panelists. We've got Elisa Molinari from la and we're going to go back to the individual file certification question with someone who's in the know so Elisa, feel free to come on down. Good morning Elisa and good evening or good morning everyone. I'm Elisa Molinari from Italy, specifically, I'm based in the region which is a nice city between Milan and the house so you know where I live. And it's a pleasure being here today and listen to your, the work you've been doing on the certification process. I can share that also on this part of the pond. We share the same concerns and we work on the same themes. For sure for us as well, awareness and training first are key and are crucial before starting the certification process. As Charles mentioned we have a title by title certification process. Here here, what our publishers say about it. We're speaking about Italian publisher, mostly of fiction and non fiction. And we're glad to have on board both very big Italian publishing groups, as well as very small and sometimes also family owned publishing houses so we have quite a range of different publishers. What they tell us that they're really glad about this kind of certification is the fact to have a unique platforms where they can send the files and a unique repository and have support on that so how it happens in just a few words. We receive the files we run some automatic checks as a public check and the ace and then we give us some time to human checks because many things for sure cannot be checked yet by the public check ace like image description for sure. Also that the tagging as well because we can detect the tagging is available but not it's done correctly. So for sure it's a lot of it's quite a time consuming activity for sure in for sure. And one thing which we feel is really important and useful for publisher is the fact that after this certification we produce accessibility metadata. So publishers are not the ones who produce metadata but it's Leah, which produces metadata based on the checklists that we have in Onyx and we send those metadata through the Italian book value chain. This is something which is really important for the communication of availability and for sure it will be really important in regards to the possibility out for sure. So these are the things that I like to say about this as for the process we feel at the same time it's a really important activity. We do this on let's say a consultancy basis rather than a process certification process. So usually, right now we are working a lot with a textbook as scholastic educational publisher, which are, for sure, have more complex layout books than fiction and nonfiction so we are working a lot on workflows for sure. So what we are doing there is to map their current workflows and feature accessibility there before getting to a certification. So this is those are the areas that we're working on right now. Excellent. Thank you so much for that overview Lisa. That was really informative and yeah I'm glad to learn a little bit more about how it goes there firsthand. I know that Benetech certification obviously it's paid. I'm just curious, do publishers pay book by book or for the, sorry to call you back, I'm just curious. I muted myself. Yeah, we have some fees based on the size of the publishers. So the publishers have some fees and small ones have different ones. Okay, cool. Thank you so much for that. Do we have any questions from, we've got Isadora raised hand so yeah please come on down. Hi everyone. I would just like to know if you have certified companies that are not publishers like aggregators, or distributors, and what does this company have to do to be certified. I know that we're usually talking about making EPUBs, but is there a scenario where some company that does not make EPUBs can work with accessibility like pushing accessibility and get some sort of certification? Not on, like there's nothing set up in our program yet for the aggregators or, you know, that side of things we do have a certification program for conversion vendors that help produce the books and they're basically once they've gone through the process they become Benetech approved vendors. And basically we're certifying that we know that they can create accessible books, but they don't get stamped anything. As far as the aggregators and stuff like that, we haven't, I don't believe we've gone that route, because there's, you know, I think we've actually sort of take that back we work with like, I forget the name now shoot here in the US, a big, a big person, a big company that's doing that type of work and we were trying to get a deal with them to help for pushing certification. But then that got sold off someone else or something so there's a possibility and definitely if you know of anyone or reach out to us and happy to see if there's something that we can make happen. I have to add for this, which is that book wire seems I'm assuming you're talking about book wire, book wire seems like, you know, your equivalent of our ebound so maybe what you should be looking at as a similar relationship to Benetech that the Canada has with either Charles or Elizabeth would be better at explaining that, and I am but that ebound is essentially like, you know, helping the, their, their clients can are the Canadian publishers to get their certification so they're acting is sort of the intermediate between Benetech, and Nels has also played a role in that relationship as well so I don't know if either Elizabeth or Charles wants to add to that. Oh, that's a great point we're doing that with other countries as well like, I think we have a relationship in the Netherlands and, you know that they'll deal with the native language. You know, for checking all text descriptions and we'll help train them on that, but then we could actually do the more heavy lifting of the actual structure the book and other other standards. But yeah, that's definitely a possibility and we could. Michael Johnson would be the person I think a better tech to get in touch with or myself and then I can relate. If there's some opportunities here for sure. Yeah, you guys can get chatting on slack. Thank you so much. It's Dora. Looks like we have a question from Laurie Davidson Laurie come on down. Hey everyone, can you hear me. Yeah, I actually have two questions and they're sort of unrelated but so I'll ask one first and then if there's time I can ask another one. So I think all of the certification process. I think if I'm understanding correctly or all about e pubs is there plans for or a certification process for audio books I know Jessica you said that he's going to be of course does audio books and Charles I don't know do you. Is it like, can you speak to that I'm just curious if it's just e pubs when we're talking about certification. Well, as far as like you can put media overlays is an e pub and make it an audio book as well so I don't know if you're specifically talking about like a daisy audio book. But right now, our certification is for any type of e pub book that could have audio in it so in fact we, we have checks for audio and video and the like in our books. We haven't gone through a certification on and someone's producing audio books but doesn't mean that we couldn't know. And to that which is to say that I think we would all need to agree on a standard for the audio books, like for audio books before we could do. I mean I would love to have certified audio books, and usually at the summit I'm on the audio book side, but there's no audio book side this year. But I mean Wendy read and the, and the working group there have been working and on the audio book specification but it's not been put into wide use in a retail format right now so I think we all just need to get on the same page it's like frustrating to talk about this every year over and over again that no one knows what the best way to make it an audio book is the best way to make it accessible. But yeah step one is just to have interested people like you and I talk about this kind of thing continuously and and having the vendors and retailers get on board is really essential. We put a pin in the audio books this year because we didn't want to, we felt the conversation might be the same as last year so pick it up again next year maybe when there's even the BISG best practices come out this kind of exciting. I know you had a follow up but Kay has a question so maybe we'll go ahead and we'll come back when we are three minutes left and then anyways hi Kay. Hi. Thanks everybody. So I am just with some of the conversation around smaller publishers and working with the book publishers Association of Alberta we have a lot of smaller publishers, like quite small publishers. And it's been really cool to see other smaller publishers doing all of their ebook and accessible production in house. However, there are a lot of people who I work with who don't have that and I know the best thing to suggest would would be that they get somebody on board who's able to do their q a more directly, like in house, but a lot of publishers don't have that. Those resources right now so I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for what publishers should do if they don't have the capability of getting into the guts of their ebooks and really looking at all of their tagging on their own. Does anybody have a recommendation and what to do. Yeah, jump in there. I do think that you don't need to have the technical knowledge. The reports that we use for benefit. It clearly outlines what the changes are I think it's just a matter of looking to say okay is this in there, whether that's correct or not you know they will find out when we come back and say oh there's still some minor tweaks here. It's not necessarily going in and doing the coding but it's just going in and saying is there an alt text here yes or no, whether that alt text is correct. Could go back to the vendor like they could go back and ask them like should I say this. So I do think that they could do some q a without having that deep technical knowledge and to follow up I think the free tool like AACE would be the first starting point because you could run AACE and then you could take a look at that visual report on an HTML web browser and take a look and see what's there with issues and see the alt text pulled out for you. Thank you. Thank you. The room is closing up. Can I say that that might be an opportunity for future PD. Yes, Nels is doing our SDPPD funded work our government funded work which is not heritage, we do evaluations for publishers and we will point them towards the Benetech certification by publishers who don't know what they're doing at all will will will break it down for them in the most basic terms so okay if you want to point to anyone or I can give you the link for the sign up. And then we give like the most friendliest evaluations you could ever hope to get. We always try to show you the link again. Okay thanks everyone for coming out of the shut down so I'll see you back in the in the main room and then we're going to break, but thank you everyone this has been excellent. Thank you.