 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart Van Der Zee and today I'm joined by my friend Mr Daniel Glass. Daniel, welcome back on the podcast. Thank you. It's always a pleasure, man It's always a pleasure to talk about drum history. As you know, I'm a fan You are a fan. You're I mean you are a staple in the community of of Really an advocate for drum history and knowledge and learning and you kind of make it I think you make it cool and approachable with your your Vic Firth series that you've done and just all this great stuff you've There's no shortage of Daniel Glass content out there, which we'll definitely talk about today So but that being said sometimes you got to pick a topic and our topic for today is really the roots of the british invasion and Let's just say right off the bat that we're kind of Going at this in a way that isn't ringo centric and charlie watt centric and definitely on them and I think these These drummers have and the movement that they were a part of we have received a lot of attention and a lot of focus Um, and they all emerged You know in the early 60s Uh, I mean the the british invasion officially started We might say with the beetles coming to america in 1964 and that you know, then the stones and the who and the yard birds and Um, you know all those bands followed uh, so We know a certain degree of that and and in the drumming community if we studied those drummers to a fairly deep level But what most people don't realize is that there was a A history of british rock that goes back to the mid 50s Which is the beginning of rock in the u.s. As well and although rock Certainly rock we could say rock and roll was born in the united states um the the way it impacted The uk and the the scene that evolved and what happened is very it's a very interesting story in its own right And that's what we're going to talk about today. So if you think we're going to just be talking about ringo and charlie watz Uh, uh, they're the we're talking about they're four bearers now They're only four bears by 10 years But in you know in contemporary music. That's a whole generation. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god I mean you think about the the differences in music from like 1980s music to like 1990s grunge and it's just different It's just a different world You've sent me over like a nice little outline here And I also want to say that I have um downloaded the roots of rock drumming book um from hudson music Which um, you're a contributor to with uh, and there's a lot there's a lot of great stuff in there I mean, I know you worked with some people different people on that right off the bat Do you want to talk about that book a little bit just to know about that? Well, that's you know, that's Actually where I first got hip to a lot of this stuff So, um, the the book was originally a project between steve smith and rob wallis Uh, essentially at hudson music And they were going to make a documentary Um back in the day hudson in an earlier iteration had produced Um a great video series called legends of jazz drumming and they'd come up with these amazing clips That of drum solos and at the time when they did this there was no internet Nobody had ever seen these a guy named bruce clobber had been collecting Um collecting these for many years and when they came out, I think it was a three video literally vhs videos To me it was a revelation and I snatched them up and I loved it And when I got involved with my band royal crown review who we played a lot of this classic stuff It was great for me to to inform what I was doing with that band Anyway flash forward they decided hudson did they wanted to do a Like legends of rock drumming video series or dvd set um And what they quickly realized is that the licensing video Was going to be too expensive. It just wasn't going to be financially viable and so But what they had done in the meantime was they had interviewed a lot of the pioneers of rock um going back to you know the guys that say played with Elvis Presley or sandy nelson or uh the guy that played with you know jerry allison who played with buddy holly Anyway, they'd done a lot of interviews and they were they were some of them were on video But they then the project just sat on a shelf for years flash forward even more to 2010 When I moved to new york and by this time I was friends with steve and um and robin paul From hudson steve smith um and Now that I was local they came to me and said hey, we've got all these interviews We don't know what to do with them. We think we want to do a book So they they said we transcribed the interviews or we will Can you edit them down and I became the editor on the project and I contributed a couple of my own interviews that I had done with uh louis premas drummer bobby morris and um the drummer for bill haley and the comets So just to add to that so we sure came out with this great book that kind of goes from the early fifties And the it it goes chronologically and covers a lot of great drummers and all the early parts of rock and roll So embedded in this they had actually interviewed three of the legends of british Rock drumming brian benet who's a drummer with a band called the shadows Uh clem catini who was a a major studio musician and bobby graham Uh who also these were sort of the howl blanes you might say sure of of british rock recording. Yeah, and uh When I edited those interviews I was amazed at what was happening at this time and how much was going on and how it had been affected by the american stuff So it tells a really fascinating story how skiffle plays in Um, which is something that you sort of you're like really there's a musical style called skiffle You know, I mean that's what I always thought like I I learned about skiffle from spinal tap You know david sainthubbin says I was in a skiffle group called the strangest and I was like Skiffle the coolest name. It's not the coolest name rash music and yet It's it's a very it plays a very important role without skiffle. There would be no jeff beck There'd be no jimmy page. Yeah, there would be you know, I mean, it's uh, it's kind of a big deal. So yeah, anyway um, that's that's where this all comes from and That got me sort of interested in the early british invasion and the session scene going on over there So that's what we're going to talk about today. Yeah, probably there are those in england that are Deeper into this than I would be being that they're there But um, it's I think for a chat here. That's it. It's a good story without further ado here Let's kind of just jump in and start at the beginning of what we would call that the the the roots of the british invasion Because again, british invasion is sort of a buzzword where you immediately go to like a very specific time a very specific place But obviously it didn't just happen overnight. Nothing ever really does So why why don't you just take it away and kind of tell us how it all started? Well, it really goes back to world war two In world war two a variety of things happened uh The germans were bombing the hell out of the british. That's number one. Yeah, because they didn't have Long range missiles yet Thankfully they were trying to develop them during the war But the the they so instead of shooting missiles, they had to send planes and the bombing of britain And this was happening in the early years of the war before the united states entered What they were trying to do was bring england to its knees Without having to try to get across the english channel and actually invade So this is, you know One of the things that in obviously pearl harbor was the spark that brought the united states into the war But that was the japanese But at this point, you know Churchill and the british were saying hey if you guys don't come over here Eventually they're going to be able to they'd already taken over france and belgium and the the whole european continent So, you know the uk england was the sort of the last holdout in in some ways So When the america did eventually enter the war they Not only brought the military with them, but they brought American culture and of course what was popular at that time was swing music big band music uh one of the things that uh was something that kept Spirits up during the war remember Uh the united states that no bombs fell on us, but in in london the place was bombed to rubble And so the the kids of the british invasion the ones that would grow up to be The jimmy pages and the john bonhams and the p townsans They all were born either during or right after the war. It was a terrible terrible time. It was a grim time um Some of the kids from london had been taken out And spent the war years on farms things like that because You could Be bombed you know a lot of people were killed in these bombings or they lived in In the underground, uh, you know the the tube they lived in tube stations sort of What's kind of happening in the ukraine right now? You know people are displaced and people are living underground and all kinds of of terrible things so It was a very very gray period and a lot of those Youth of the british invasion Grew up in a in a gray time and what brought them a lot of joy And hope was american music and american culture and jazz has always represented something that is about freedom and self expression I think it's one of the things about the african-american Contribution to jazz which is kind of like Be funky and don't be so uptight You know is it is what makes american music to this day? So appealing to other cultures where people are much more uptight. Certainly you might say britain Germany these places are more buttoned up the religious, you know Heritage is like don't just be like You know like let it all hang out our keys and things like that. Yeah, right But jazz is about like be free to be your bad funky self So, I mean, you know it just In a in in common more vernacular kind of term So this had a lot of appeal big band swing jazz had it was danceable. It was um upbeat positive it It gave this shining image of america as a place that was not only there to bring military But also to like hearts and minds win over hearts and minds, right? Yeah, so there was a thing called the voice of america I don't know all the details about it, but it was part of When the americans came and set up shop in the uk and they played contemporary music And once the war ended they played not only swing jazz and big band, but they started to play bebop And they started to play rhythm of blues and then by the mid fifties. They were playing rock and roll so all of this Was the undercurrent to what this new generation of youth was getting exposed to and it was a real good antidote For you know the the lives they were living which was recovering from the war. Nobody had any money. Nobody could afford anything So what kind of music did they make? Well, most instruments were either unavailable or out of the question expensive um, and so what developed was a Culture of what we call skiffle music skiffle music was sort of a combination of american folk and blues All of which were having resurgence in the united states Or were popular styles in the united states at this time and they were simple styles that anybody could get involved with So when you look at pictures of skiffle bands It was a guitar culture. You could get a cheap child size guitar or a you know, cheap cheap guitar Yeah Didn't cost you a lot of money to get in to gain entry Into into playing music And you could drag a guitar around with you also Instruments like the washboard were a part of skiffle skiffle Uh wash tub bass. Yes, I have all these pictures of skiffle bands teenagers And the the the bass was like it was like a wash tub imagine a wash tub with a broomstick and one String and you pulled on the broomstick to change the tension on the string While you plucked the string now, maybe you could get three notes out of that You know, but but you could play a simple blues or a folk song. Yeah, you're playing something I mean and it's and you know again I think a famous example of it and we said we're not going to really talk about them too much But the Beatles and the quarry men really kind of had that that early. I mean they used the the washboard, you know Exactly It's just I mean everything you're saying is so it's it's these kids who are so like they're growing up in this downtrodden Just miserable like environment and it's like this is their way to Let loose and kind of grease their hair back and uh, yeah It's skiffle It's just a lot of like I think of the dancing too of a lot of jumping from videos You see and moving around and just kind of like it's a way to express yourselves and obviously it's a way to um Kind of revolt against your parents a little bit because exactly it was their own Music of their own generation. Yes, absolutely and dad might not like it So they're gonna love it and that's that's rock and roll right there, you know Yeah, so, you know, there's a famous photo of jimmy page when he's nine or ten years old and not a photo of video You can actually look this up um And he is they're talking about skiffle and he plays like a little blues kind of a song Uh with it with another buddy two guitar players Uh, maybe the most famous skiffle artist was a guy named lani donigan who did a song called the rock island line Which is uh, it's a black blues classic about a train Going down to new orleans and there's a great video of him performing it on british television So, you know, you had this happening and you had a vibrant as well jazz scene Swing big band scene big band was very popular in the uk So and of course bebop. So all these exported styles were popular And when you think of somebody like john bonham and I on my podcast, which we might talk about in a bit It's on hiatus now, but all my episodes are available on my on my website and they link over to drummer's resource where they live But um, I do a two parter on john bonham and the whole first episode is about john bonham's influences and people might think You know like maybe the most famous example of john bonham's influence of of what He listened to was the uh intro to rock and roll, right and people Maybe now it's maybe common knowledge enough that the intro he plays is note for note lifted from a little richard song from 1956 called keep it knocking um The drummer by the way Who played on that charles connor not earl palmer who played on most of little richard stuff But charles connor was little richard's touring drummer and I interviewed him and got to know him. He played in la He's now departed sadly, but okay Led zeppelin the song rock and roll same intro But people don't realize if you watch early john bonham drum solos He's playing the drum also waltzes, which was a max roach Drum solo in three where he does the you know the thing with his feet boom Boomch one two three one jigger jigger jump jigger and bonham lifted that you know note for note and uh bonham was a huge krupa fan and A lot of that stuff is there. So these are all things that you know And then later on bonham was influenced by reggae and he was influenced by the pretty shuffle, you know and He displayed his influences right in what he was doing with led zeppelin. Sure. So um, you know this influence Was big and it spread To to this new generation Now you also had An emerging rock scene in the mid. So this is again 10 years before The rock and roll obviously took off Technology is getting better at at mass media getting mass media out there. So people are able to see elvis Unfortunately elvis never left the us. He never toured abroad, which most people you don't think about it But he never did in any international touring. Wow. And yeah, he went to germany when he was in the army and that was it I'm gonna say I mean he was stationed in germany and uh Met priscilla there. I think I believe she was like she was 14 14. Yeah, but they you know, they they were They didn't date at that point. No, but they knew each other and uh, that's where they first met One of the cool things about rock is that it was it was very well featured in movies And as television would become more popular Um, you know played a played a big role in that so the dissemination of rock was It continued to to be bigger and bigger bigger as the ability to reach Um, you know as as mass media became mass media. Well, and actually there is a good I'm kind of thinking of the the question of like, all right, so um, the the uh, how the children of the generation then young adults, let's say are receiving this where Is it would it be radio broadcasts? Would it be records? Would it be tv and film or is it all of the above? I mean I don't really know. I know that TV wasn't that common until the mid fifties in the united states And I kind of imagine it was maybe a little bit later in the uk because of because of World war two and you know what we're talking about. I don't I can't speak to tv, but certainly the movies Uh were they got movies over there. They saw a lot of their heroes um, what what's interesting about and certainly they got records um, and another way that they got hip to this stuff was Uh, was was concerts. So some of the early rock acts uh did tour Uh, bill hailey interestingly even though Today we might look at bill hailey and go well, he's kind of square and he seemed kind of old for rock You know elvis was like 19 when he hit most of those Rockers were in their late teens or early 20s that the earliest generation of first big rock stars Um, bill hailey was significantly older than that and he looked kind of like your uncle Not like a rock star. He wasn't a good-looking guy but He's one of the people that toured in the uk and in germany and places like that and for a lot of those Audiences he represented rock because that was the only rock concert. They could go see You know, so so but buddy holly toured a bit over there um, and if if you look at uh, paul mccartney was influenced by buddy holly when he toured because What was body holly's band called the crickets? And the beetles literally were named as sort of uh, um You know in in in honor of that or that they loved buddy holly's name and they wanted to name themselves of that There's actually a wonderful movie Uh, which is called the real buddy holly story. You can find it on youtube Uh, it was a movie made by paul mccartney He was so mad when the buddy holly story with gary bucey came out At how that story told buddy holly's life In terms of a love story and kind of ignored the music and didn't really get into the musical aspect of it Which most musical biopics do they just talk about you know, they treat the music part very superficially, but um In this in this so he made paul mccartney made a documentary called the real buddy holly story and he Goes to clovis new mexico where buddy holly made and and the crickets made their first records And interviews jerry allison and the remaining members of the crickets that are still alive And shows all these different elements about what Buddy holly was doing that were so important to him one of which was that buddy holly Strumbed his guitar all with downstrums. So he wasn't going jinga jinga jing back and forth. That was jung jung jung jung jung jung How does rock and roll often played, you know, i'm not a guitar expert, but Like a lot of downstrokes So these were things that were had buddy holly not come to the uk They may not have known that so the young people had a chance to see You know some of these american artists coming over Yeah, and it's interesting because collin hanton who was the drummer in the quarryman was on the podcast and he talked about How how how paul would would um They love they everyone liked paul in the band because he knew the lyrics to songs because it was now we take it for granted that You can look it up on the lyrics.com or something No, you hear this song once and then you got to wait till it comes on on the rotation again I used to have fights with my sister when we were kids And we would place bets about what the lyrics were and you know, I'm still wrong a lot even with the internet I'm like, oh, I thought it was something completely different. Yeah, but just that ability and that uh, Just the different the the the world if you got to go see it live you only hear it once there's no Social media there's no streaming. So you have to hear one chance to see buddy holly live and that imprints you big time Now maybe he would be on tv But again, you can just dial up whenever you wanted to if you were lucky to catch that tv appearance Now so talking about live performances though, there's two other things that were happening In the late fifties and early sixties that were influential on the british scene um Gene Fitz and Eddie Cochran who were two of the biggest stars of the first wave of rock of rock stars at that time You know little richard chuck berry and bow diddly They were the this this generation Was the early rock that was really dangerous that was terrifying. It was multiracial. It was it was raunchy It was rebellious, you know and so uh these early heroes um As I said, not that many of them traveled internationally, but bill hailey did uh buddy holly did and eddie cochran and uh gene vincent gene vincent. Yep, uh eddie cochran great guitar player very influential on brian setser for example Who I worked with for a long time? Um and gene vincent beba pa lula. She's my baby and eddie cochran wrote summertime blues and Some of these other famous songs. Anyway, they toured england together And brian bennett who's one of the drummers I mentioned earlier. They picked up a british band so he actually had the chance to tour with them and um Unfortunately, they were in a terrible car accident. I think it was on that tour And eddie cochran was killed and gene vincent was maimed And uh had to leave the business for a few years while he was recuperating This was sort of the the whole story of early rock and roll is kind of tragic because It was this amazing thing that popped up, you know mid fifties 54 55 and by the end of the fifties all of those early rockers. I'd either had legal trouble Uh were blacklisted because of that had died a bunch of them died buddy holly big bopper Of course those guys eddie cochran died were in terrible car accidents gene vincent Um, uh, uh, uh carl perkins Elvis Elvis went in the army gene Little richard quit music and joined the ministry and he was out of it for a while chuck berry was arrested He was he was generally a pretty bad dude bad character jerry lewis You know was nailed for marrying his cousin and was blackballed and then there was this huge um like Uh blowback from upstanding american society who were mad that the blacks were involved, of course There was the end, you know devil music n word music Uh Elvis terrified them. He was so had so much sexual energy. He was a good-looking guy They were afraid their daughters were gonna, you know drop their panties for all these rock dudes I mean it's the same thing that happens every time a new style of music becomes popular Is that yeah, you know like What we would call civilized society or whatever they freak out But in this case this combination of bad things happening and blowback really Killed that That movement and it was between say 59 and 64 When the british came back and really brought rock back in a new way That you know that um rock then really took off But there was sort of four or five years where it was it like You had like fake rockers like fabian and bobby ridell and you know people that were Acceptable to the industry. That's when you had beach blanket bingo movies and jerry lewis movies and doris day movies and They tried to whitewash and clean it all up, you know Well, that's the end of a lot of things is when it becomes commercial like think of like disco and I heard some movie or show was saying when disney released a Disco album disco was probably dead You know and and but it's it's interesting how you said all of those guys Uh had horrible ends to their careers and lives But like that almost was the like the like tide washing out the 50s rock and roll And then the 60s next generation exactly what you're saying with the the british guys it gave Way for that next sound because they really don't have It sounds different. I mean that that goes without saying but we think of like with like gene vincent and stuff It's like it is and and and eddie cocker. It's like Rockabilly it has a very rockabilly feel like slapback kind of delays and stuff But then when you fast forward into the 60s into what we're considering really I think what most people consider the the rock and roll like the british invasion Which is really what you hear on the radio now of rock and roll like classic rock It doesn't sound the same as that that kind of like 50s rock It's interesting though because the Beatles and the stones their first bunches of albums sound like cover albums I mean, you're right the majority of material are covers and they are sounding like that 50s stuff so Yeah, you know the the part of the Beatles that that You know once they started writing original music more. That's what we what we key in on and they certainly Took all of that and did their own thing with it and we're so responsible for changing You know what rock would become but to go back to the 50s, you know, we're we're talking I guess we're talking we're still talking about influences things that influence the british So let's talk about the british and what they did with that with that. So there were several A variety of scenes that developed there was skiffle, which Was this sort of acoustic folk kind of a style and certainly the blues played a huge Part in that The the uh, I should mention one more very very important Influence that showed up was American blues musicians like the guys from chicago and gals chess records and um, willy dixon Who's was involved with chess? He was sort of The liaison maybe between the artists and the business men because he he had some skills with arranging He was a good producer. He knew how to wrangle musicians, but he also knew how to Do business, you know the way that the chess brothers were doing it So he was kind of in that chicago blues world. He played a very unique role. He certainly wrote amazing songs And uh, he was a great bass player, but he also kind of was really good at putting stuff together And what was happening is that right when that early rock and roll stuff was dying out The electric chicago blues stuff was also dying out It had been around for a decade what was replacing it was motown and stacks, right? Which had started in the early 60s and they were Starting to ascend and it was also their version of black rhythm and blues or blues was moving away from more of the um Like the the rural Field blues thinking of like, you know, john lee hooker or muddy waters Where you still get the sense of the delta and the south and what they really wanted to do was That that style of blues was was sold primarily to black audiences And what they were trying to do was make that style of blues or r&b Into something that could be sold on a on a widespread scale And so motown took that and moved it forward Obviously they wanted to cross over and and sell the blues to white audiences And so songwriting took off and you know stacks was a little more rootsy because they were down in the south But definitely both of those labels Really pushed things forward along with artists like ray charles and stuff But the the traditional blues guys were trying to figure out what to do and they Found an audience in the uk not only the uk but germany france the netherlands And willy dixon put together these tours that were called the american folk blues festival or folk in blues festival And i didn't really know that much about these until i got there's a three Back again in the day back in the 90s when i was collecting everything i get my hands on there's a three volume dvd And it's incredible not only did they do concert tours and what willy dixon did was he put together There was a european promoter who paid for all this willy dixon put together like an all star group These tours would be not just muddy waters or howlin wolf it would be muddy waters and howlin wolf and john lee hooker and You know Just a panoply and they would bring the chess house guys So fred bilo and guys like that You know Drummer fred bilo was sort of the the guy for that blues scene He was the the best known name studio guy played with chuck berry, but he also played with little walter and he played with You know all these different artists so These amazing tours would come over and not only did they do tours, but they did concert tv specials And that's what's on this dvd set if you just google this or put it into youtube It's amazing because they built these sets as if you're On the stoop of a house in the south in the delta And the musicians would be hanging out and they had a couple of extras and then they would have a scene like in a In a road house, you know Where people would be dancing and it with extras, you know, and it was just like They're cool. It's the it's america. It's like this. Oh, this is what america is. They viewed it. It's so well done It's so classy the audio is incredible and you get to see these artists Like represented at their absolute best and a lot of these artists were at their peak And were were very popular. So when you think about, you know American roots blues basically very like roots oriented blues That also made a huge impression on europe And I think it's interesting because you know going back to um Earlier styles of black music uh ragtime early jazz Of course, you know bebop These very sort of specifically black styles had an enormous appeal Just like hip-hop does today or funk does Um outside of the u.s. And again, I don't you know, I I think there are fewer sort of racial Hang-ups because for people who didn't grow up with all this baggage that we grow up with with constant kind of Racial tension and issues and back and forth and we don't need to get into all that but obviously that continues to go on and on and on sadly, but A lot of african-american artists have felt more comfortable in europe. A lot of them became expats and lived in europe A lot of the beboppers a lot of the early jazz musicians um And yeah, when I spent a lot of time in europe, I'd meet black Musicians who had just bailed on america. They were living over there and doing their thing and getting more respect and dealing with less crap You know, etc. So anyway, the these tours came and they came every year Starting at 62. I think they actually went beyond 64 But those three years you can imagine if you're oh, yeah, you know brian jones And whatever I want to read this because it says on wikipedia actually as I have up. So the american folk blues festival it says, uh 62 for the first event like first time it happened it said attendees known attendees I'm sure someone else might have been there, but it said mick jagger keith richards brian jones and jimmy page We're at the first one Subsequent attendees at the first London festival that they found out I guess about where eric burden eric clapton steve winwood Yeah, and there there have to be more the list goes on and on That's the yearbook of like Of british invasion of british invasion. Yeah, exactly So these these these were concert tours and they were tv specials And you should you know to whoever's listening just punch that in and go check it out They're spectacular and you'll get a whole new appreciation for that style of blues because it's kind of presented in a very Sort of the way it's presented is is delicious Um, and I just want to also throw out too the the logistics I guess it makes more sense to take kind of a a stable of stars You know to talk about I think to use the term from that thing you do Take them all at once over to perform because why not It's as opposed to using one seat on an airplane Yeah, I mean that happened in the united states too early rock was characterized by package tours Yeah, a stable of stars from the different labels or you know or alan frie the dj would present You know a night of these and such stars and so that was you know Everybody ran out did their hit or two and you just trotted out many different people So through that you could sell out larger venues You could you know more economically move people around and house people and I mean it's a predecessor to a modern festival to coachella or whatever. I mean it really is But you there would usually just be one house band that would back those artists It wasn't like each artist had their own band per se so for example with with these american folk blues tours you would have Uh, you would have a how you know the house band of chess Session guys would go and they would just back up all the artists for that particular Show or that particular tour and that was the same with the rock stuff Is that often it would just be the singer and then or the you know, whatever the headliner And then there would be a house band that would that would back people up So and that kind of thing has gone on You know it happened in the swing era once the swing era came to an end a lot of the big band stars would go out Uh, same same sort of thing. So anyway, um, but One other thing I want to bring up here is we talked about records And this is another very interesting factoid that Really makes sense when you think about it. So when you when you think of the Beatles They were from Liverpool now Liverpool was halfway up England. It was an industrial city It was not a cool cosmopolitan town like london. I mean compared comparatively yet the the The Beatles and other bands that were so prominent in the scene came from there So why is that? Well, Liverpool was a coastal town and it was on the uh, the west coast of The the island and so when ships came bearing Records they would stop in Liverpool, which was on the mouth of the mercy river And then everything would go down the mercy river to get to london and and point south so You hear about the mercy beat That was kind of the the cool 1960s sound That was very progressive because the musicians in Liverpool had access to these great records Either they had access to more records or they you know, they had access to them first And so they were very musically savvy, which is why Liverpool, you know, sort of became this Hub interesting. You might say yeah, and then there was a label called pie py That reissued a lot of chess titles there. So it obviously would be very difficult to get american records, you know Like if you're a super fan of the blues, so pie records would you know, they signed british artists, but they also Reissued american releases to make them available on a widespread scale in in the uk it sounds like to check in on timeline here like the the the The americans have come over which which even if you back up further americans were influenced by all kinds of other You know music from africa when when it was at its base here, you know, you got the new orleans sound Then that's been exported going over to europe So it's kind of uh, it's it's going then that way then The fifties all happens rock and rolls really kind of spreading around the world Then that sort of is dying down and these british, you know, the youth of of of the uk Are absorbing it. They're going in person. They're they're getting records off off the ship And uh, it's it's influencing them. So that's kind of where we're at right now and they're poor and they can't afford more than a guitar And and i think root styles for young people, you know Something that's as polished as say a jazz big band again, that's something for their parents something that is Really stripped down Where you're sitting there with your little guitar and you're trying to figure out a muddy waters lick or you know, whatever Of that had that had a huge appeal as well Now one thing we still have to discuss is what was the the british version of rock and roll So you talked about brian bennett who played with eddie cochran and gene vincent on the last tour And brian bennett went on to be in a rock and roll band because these guys Obviously when elvis came out, you know, and and the early generation the brits wanted to imitate that And they did very very well. So cliff richard Who is still alive today? Maybe one of the biggest stars of of English rock starting from the fifties Um Was a huge star but his backing band was called the shadows and they were actually A band in their own right Who we might compare with the ventures and we you know, the ventures walk don't run and a bunch of those tunes Which we would say was part of sort of instrumental rock or surf rock And the shadows were huge in england. So whether they played with cliff richards or they had their own career They were just as big as the ventures Also, you had a really big session scene in the late fifties starting Because very much like rock in the united states A lot of the early rock and roll artists really couldn't play They were just like these skiffle kids. They were just picking up an instrument and trying to play And so when you try to create a rock and roll industry You needed season season session players who could just pump the stuff out Then you get the kid in who looks cool who could sing So for example, when I interviewed bobby morris from louis prima's band You know, he was a very trained musician But he was able to kind of come up with this cool Sound that louis prima made in the fifties that we might call proto rock you know, it was fast art rhythm and blues shuffles and Backbeat with a honking tenor saxophone all of which are kind of hallmarks of of rock and louis prima Who actually is from new orleans who started out in the big band era completely reinvented himself as an alternative And in the fifties he was sort of a weird mash-up of like r and b Swing jazz new orleans, but also rock and roll and he appealed to a younger audience So he was part of the early rock scene. Cool. So bobby morris who was his drummer in las vegas Who's a trained, you know, bebop jazz guy who who was playing all the shows in vegas before he connected with prima Now capital records calls him up and says we got to make all this rock and roll But where there's nobody in los angeles who could play rock So Can you fly out a couple days a week from vegas? And you'll go into capital and you'll just record rock tracks all day They didn't know they were just like let's get a drummer who could play rock, which is why by 1957 Earl Palmer leaves new orleans And moves to la because and then proceeds to define Rock from there on out which he'd already done with little richard and fatz domino in norlands Now he goes and and really gets into the studio. So, you know These studio guys another example would be panama francis in on the east coast And he I interviewed panama when he was still alive. I knew earl very well I knew bobby morris very well and all these guys just thought of rock as some kind of bs Thing panama francis said that was just choich music Basically, they just wanted to shuffle with a backbeat a fast shuffle with a heavy backbeat and believe it or not a lot of the Decession players that were in the studios were either jazzers or they were Orchestral players and they couldn't play it. They couldn't do it. So, you know earl falls into this amazing situation And they're flying bobby morris out and a lot of these records these guys never got any credit for them But um, they were you know They were important. So in england, you had the same thing and There was this incredible session scene that that was spawned that included a lot of younger players So for example, how blame we his story. He was a young guy. He had known about rock. He had Lived rock a little bit. So when he got to la He was able to take advantage of that skill set again that the the lot of the the older players So well, you're gonna wreck you're gonna wreck the whole studio scene and that's why they called themselves the wrecking crew Because they were younger guys that didn't wear suits and ties. They were yeah rock people You know similarly to carmine apasy in 1974 saying all the rock books are written by Guys with you know, skinny ties and crew cuts and white short sleeve shirts buttoned down shirts I'm a rock star. I play in vanilla fudge and cactus like I'm gonna write a book called realistic rock You know, so this was sort of the takeover of the industry by the next generation And it certainly happened in england as much as it did here. So clem catini played on thousands of records all of these kinds of stars of patula clark and lulu and um, probably tons of other people that we don't know about but the young generation of british uh singers Pop singers rock singers They they you know bobby graham and clem catini were kind of the two Howlblanes of england you might say interesting. I mean, it's It's so I mean, of course the guys who were doing it then they didn't grow up on rock and roll But they'd have to figure it out enough to like to be cool and to and and it's just a different It's a it's a it's a looseness that might not come naturally to someone who didn't grow up with with that style Or if someone's a absolutely tried and true Like like studied drummer. You kind of need to like forget everything you've learned. We're now doing this where Well, it's a way of feeling the the beat. Yeah, it's a way of feeling the groove which i've studied intensively And talk about all the time which is you know making Giving it a certain feel That was that was the way it was done back then it became its own style and in this roots of rock drumming book We talk a lot about that and we go through our first interview is bobby morris who really was a jazz and bebop drummer Who played with louis prima and he he was Played on a ton of rock records and then the last person we have interviewed is jim keltoner who you know Came later but was hugely influenced by by these guys and so it's sort of everything in between we have you know southern drummers and blues drummers and You know rock drummers and I mean just The first guys didn't think of themselves as rock drummers. They were sort of like well What is rock supposed to sound like you know, of course? Yeah, and then you know later Then the next generation did think of themselves as rock drummers and they they had taken what you know the earlier generation did So anyway, it's it's really fascinating and the stories of you know people for example to use a common thing about People give bernard pretty a lot of grief because of his claims that he played on beatle's records and we're not going to Go there right now. But sure The the issue is that so many of these session musicians and by the way bernard did a million sessions in the early 60s in new york um You would just go in and you'd record all the songs and you wouldn't know who Who you were recording for who was the singer, you know, and so then 20 years later somebody comes up and says Oh, yeah, I love your work on this legendary hit and you're like what they didn't even know that what they were playing on So that's kind of what bernards thing is is that he didn't really know Who the Beatles were they were a british band and you know whether or not it's true I can't sure but the the way he describes it wasn't like, you know Anyway, I don't want to get into the whole other episode But I mean they're they're they would do and they would do whole albums in a day I mean it was just you went in and you hammered it out both in the u.s And in the u.k. Clem catini talks about that. Um, they would they would just it was it was brutal I mean hal blaine is sort of the king of that thing by the time hal ascended He was he had three he had a tech first of all and he had three Uh drum sets one was always being broken down where he just finished and the next one was already set up And he would literally go from session to session to session walk in do it because back in those days You didn't have months to do a record you had a day or two days to do an entire record and that's why they needed You know, again, this is the Beatles are the first band to actually Have enough power to say we're not going to tour anymore We sell enough records and we've made you enough money You know capital emi that that we are going to Simply record and you're going to give us 24 hour access to your studios and We're going to make even more money for you and Just this is going to be our nine to five job Go in and when you when you see the get-back movie, you know, you kind of see how that operates, but it was even you know I mean, it's amazing, you know to watch how they did it and that was their job and There's a I have this wonderful book Which which talks about every single day that the Beatles were in the studio. I know i'm jumping around a lot No, I have that same book. Actually. It's like kind of a wider white book. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a big coffee table Look, it's an incredible book. It's out of maybe back in print now, but it's like, okay july 3rd 1968 They were working on magical mystery tour and This is what they did on july 3rd You know, they cut vocals and they did this and they did that, you know from 5 to 8 p.m. Or whatever And um, it's amazing That that's the first time anybody was really able to do that To have the freedom to do that the only artist earlier that I can think of and Going back to buddy holly and paul mccartney is that when buddy holly made his first series of recordings his first album They were sort of partnering with this studio in clovis new mexico Nobody was there wasn't you know clovis. It's not even it's like a tiny little town buddy holly's from texas But he's in clovis new mexico So they kind of had unlimited time because they were in partnership with the studio owner and they did a lot of incredible Studio things all of which are talked about in this movie the real buddy holly story. Yeah, so I I Encourage people to go check that out Um, anyway, so you have this incredible scene and also I should just say out of this session scene You had You know They were younger players And clem cattini talks about dragging you know setting up the drums throwing them in his car driving to other sessions setting them up You know barely having time to eat a sandwich. They weren't paid. Well. It was not glamorous At the time rock and roll was not respected. It was seen as just being crappy throwaway kid music That was disposable And um, you know these guys really You know were unsung heroes Of creating something that would you know Become bedrock of of the biggest style that would change music Exactly I was gonna say change the world. I mean that's that's part of the cool thing about rock and roll though is like Uh, it's it's not supposed to be cool And I mean rock rock in in reality really did kind of like defy it where like, you know, uh, a lot of things Like I said, disney does disco. Okay, disco is dead But with rock it seems like it's It's like Like a rock where it's it's strong enough to get through all of that Being like bastardized by certain things where where it really has a raw um I don't know. It's raw at its heart where uh, you know, it's kind of cool that they they were you know Fighting their way through and and not getting paid a lot and just kind of unsung which I have to assume got kind of changed when uh when in the mid Early mid 60s things changed obviously and it became then very uh, very profitable for everyone Well, I would say I would say rock was no different than jazz before it or early rock and roll before it or bebop you know any style that comes up kind of from the streets that is sort of Is not accepted by the mainstream is going to have to struggle and if it does break through then it does become Coopted and then you have the next style. So rock is one of many styles that went through that kind of progression Uh disco too. I mean disco started as a an expression of gay new york in in in you know downtown clubs of manhattan Was not was not something that was considered respectable Um, it was an expression of gay culture if you think of the village people or you know Things like that people were most people were clueless They didn't have any idea that the you know The guy's dressed as the cop and the indian and the fireman and the you know, whatever like You know the cowboy It's like yeah, that didn't register, but that's where it came from You know, so sure just in the same way that rhythm and blues music had these really filthy lyrics 60 minute man is about a guy that could Uh have sex for 60 minutes. He was a stud and Uh, but but the song became a huge hit because nobody no white people understood what that was You know, so these these things that totally translates over into like lead zeppelin. You think of some of these zeppelin lyrics Which are they are maybe an example of uh, I mean literally lifting things from other people and making them their own songs Which that's a whole other conference. The lemon song exactly the lemon song those lyrics were copped it straight up And there were a lot a lot about that and uh chuck berry sued the Beatles over some some lyrics and come together Uh, you know that were lifted directly from his uh one of his songs So that's another it's another story, but the evolution Of these things were interesting and I just want to mention because I know we're probably getting short on time, but um Some of the figures that came out of this session scene um Would go on to be some of the most important people in the british invasion. So, um, you know, uh First of all richie blackmore The guitarist who would go on to form deep purple who was an incredible musician. He was uh, one of the Regular session musicians in the studio and I want to talk about studios just for a second you know a lot of the the The birth of rock and the magic of rock and really the blues as well What was happening in the 50s was because small studio owners There was no way that Certain things Certain of these early styles of music Were going to cross over to mainstream and they weren't going to have access to the major labels at that time And so I have a book about rhythm and blues which talks about the evolution of a lot of this music We talked about it the last time I was here on your show. Um, but What what happened is cottage industries developed To satisfy the new audiences that were listening to these styles of music Just like say hip-hop in the 1970s. There was no, you know or rap No label was going to look at this and go. Oh, yeah, you know, um So, you know, we're gonna sign this never been done before and so it's there's no It it's too new it's too scary too threatening too weird too out of the mainstream think about when lady gaga You know who was also part of the downtown scene and was you know Just in a totally different world who the f is lady gaga I mean, you know, probably the first time anyone of us heard that name. It was like But she's lady gaga now. She you know, it's like you people you get people to To buy into what you're doing and suddenly you're you're the new mainstream. So exactly anyway, the The for example sun records applied this great kind of slapback reverb That was almost a mistake and as a result of that Elvis and Carl Perkins and Johnny Cash and Charlie Lewis had this sound Right that then everybody wanted because that sound became popular chest records in in uh, You know the same thing in Chicago They applied the sound so that it gave the muddy waters and the little walters and the howlin wolves this kind of surreal larger than life Cool sound that was it was a signature sound But when those labels were just starting the salesman would put the records in the trunks of their car and they would go to You know barbershops and hair hair salons Like that's the way those records were distributed You know or they would travel to the radio stations and hand them by hand saying I you don't know me But I have this small station of this small label or this small studio. So there were similar Parallels in the uk and this guy Joe meek meek another really worthwhile If you especially if you're into kind of crazy fifties rock or garage rock Check him out because he came up with using again Funky technology came up with his own cool sound and the the bands and the hits that came out of his studio He did a lot of instrumental rock shadow style rock and there's a song called tell star Which is it was a huge hit both in the uk and it It transferred over became a big hit in the u.s. Which so it was sort of early very early British hits breaking into the u.s. Scene in the in the very early 60s and very late fifties We talked a little bit early on on the phone about this and we mentioned you mentioned joe meek And I said, you know, have you heard of him and I said Maybe but I'm pretty sure meek Has meek is a lot of people listening now have home studios a lot of the presets or plugins you'll see in waves and all these things Yes, there are whole bundles of Of plugins. That's the joe meek bundle. Yes, absolutely So, you know now like yeah, you've got the slap back, you know the guitar sound I mean, it's it's amazing now how it's all just in in the box or you buy it as a as a plugin Yes, you're you're absolutely right and just you know, a lot of these people didn't make it I think joe meek eventually committed suicide. He wasn't around that long. It was kind of another sad story rock and roll wreckage But what he created was pretty amazing and I know there's documentaries about him Well, you could find out so richie blackmore was part of his stable Then, you know, you had jack bruce and jimmy page who were Tremend they were just as important as bobby graham and uh and and Clem catini by the way, Clem catini was one of the first people they asked To replace to join the new yard birds, which would then become led zeppelin And he turned it down Because he was too busy in the studios and he didn't want to You know, and I I'm not sure if maybe it's Maybe it was bobby graham that they asked to join led zeppelin Uh, Clem catini might have been uh when peep best left the Beatles They looked at a variety of these studio guys as well. So there were you know, it wasn't ringo wasn't just a slam dunk I don't think but they it's all in the book. They talk about it. I know for sure. Clem catini got there was interest in him Uh joining led zeppelin. He was like, well, I don't want to join some new band when I'm like making regular bucks in the studios You know, he's not wrong. I mean, it's the wrong bet because again, we you don't know at that point You don't know it was probably a family man with kids and you know, all that kind of stuff So but I think he I think clem is the drummer on tell star I mean a lot of these you know, these drummers played on a lot of this stuff And so in any case, uh, jeff beck was also on that scene But like, you know, just to go back to jimmy page and john paul jones I mean they were monster studio musicians and the reason why those led zeppelin records are so sound so great is because jimmy page had tremendous knowledge already Not only having played on a million hit singles and he knew how to operate in a studio unlike so many rock Musicians that get in a studio. They kind of fall apart. They don't know how to play to the microphones or you know, they're just their Skills are not good enough. Yeah, yeah And you know john paul jones as well. So the fact that You know, perhaps the biggest band Out of that whole thing I mean You know, who's bigger really doesn't matter, but certainly led zeppelin is maybe considered the greatest rock and roll band of all time by many Um, they didn't they got their start, you know in this World in the late 50s and really in the early 60s. Yeah, uh of of that kind of a thing Which I mean even that lends itself to the kind of the whole thing and that I think it's almost a debunking of this Is this british invasion it's almost like like I almost had maybe in the back of my mind like You just you kind of think it's an overnight thing or it's it just happens or the plain lands Beatles get off wave boom the world changes or the who or whatever and these bands just kind of happen But no, I mean like you said they're they're experienced Studio musicians they're practiced They sound great for a reason. I mean they're they're phenomenal musicians. Um, which that I mean it has to Once it once it hits and the british invasion happens, which is kind of where Uh Like our conversation is basically leading up to that point and then that's because again, this is the the roots of it It's the origins of it. It's not now. Let's get into the rest of that, which maybe that's another episode in entirely I'm sure it is but um It's it's it's a long road and I really like knowing the origins of it about a lot of stuff comes back from world war two Man, I mean technology music it just it changed the world in so many ways by nature of Uh, just necessity by things had to change. You're starting over. Well, not only that I mean one other thing that blows my mind. It's just a factoid about world war two is that Americans traveled all over the world during that war and were exposed to a lot of different cultures And what they brought back And how that affected the music or what kind of music people were suddenly open to hearing Was was another huge factor that opened a lot of a lot of musical doors in a lot of ways The fact that Americans, you know who I mean first of all people didn't travel Travel was not as easy as it is today It was you had to either have money or have a reason to travel most people never went far from home Suddenly you have millions of Americans traveling overseas to very exotic places. I mean not only Europe, but like you know the the uh The pacific the south pacific in japan places like that which were may as well have been Just another planet, you know at that time they're young american boys. These are not like, you know grown 50 year old men These are like probably somewhat raunchy young american boys coming over and just like ready to almost you know, they're they're I might die tomorrow. Well, it's like let's let's party Yeah, let's experience let's experience, you know, let's have some experience. So yeah, I mean, I think really just To summarize it all like it's it's not just one thing Nothing is just one thing It's so many different little elements and I really do like the back and forth of how america influenced the british You know musicians and then it's how the british influenced the american musicians It just is this back and forth of like absolutely a ping pong game of like and to this day, you know I guess maybe one of my big points that I want to make here is that we all think of that the brits were initially That it is a back and forth, you know, maybe people think well the brits just came up with all that on their own Well, no, they were very influenced by american music But then You know what they brought to the table Really, there is a very strong to this day Element of british rock that continues and and continues to produce its own great artists So there was a distinct rock culture in england Uh, in particular, there probably were in other countries too. I just don't know much about that But certainly, you know, what what britain has produced and continues to produce Uh, it continues to be just as groundbreaking and awesome and amazing In in its own culture and you know over there, of course, you have the influence of jamaicans Which was also happening in starting in the 60s And you have the whole, you know reggae thing and scone rock steady and punk You know punk thing that emerged and so it goes on and on Awesome Well, I think this is a great conversation again covering the roots of the british invasion because again at the point Where we stop is like where the entire explosion happens And then you get into all of the like keith moons and the ringos and the charlie watz and all that stuff Which we all know a lot about there'll be another episode down the road about that But uh for now mr. Glass, I would like to talk about your latest album Just to kind of help promote that a little bit because you share all this great knowledge with everyone But on top of just being a really truly a wealth of Uh of information and just uh, I mean I feel like I could stop you on the street and say daniel When did this happen and then you just say you'd give me an entire 20 minutes later? I would finish my answer No, but I feel like you really do you you you absorb it all and you you know all this stuff But anyway, you just recently released with the daniel glass trio Bam your great new album, which I have thoroughly enjoyed Uh, just tell everyone about it and tell them where they can find it and listen. It's it's it's it's everywhere But tell us about it Well, I People maybe who have followed me know that um, I moved to new york about 12 years ago In 2010 and prior to that I I was in los angeles for about 20 years So I sort of had two major chapters of my musical life At least in terms of where I was located and what was going on and um, I did a fair amount of I mean I had my own band royal crown review that I was very involved in the business Of running that band when that was happening Um, and I also led of several different projects jazz-based projects Uh in in la when I was living there, um, and I when I moved to new york My focus had already shifted and was shifting to me really developing what I do as an educator and a historian So the books and the dvds and also my private teaching practice and the clinics that I do Um, and I sort of said to myself. I'm going to put down band leading For a while because it is Difficult to say the least, you know all the responsibility is on you trying to sell the thing is on you Uh, you got to just do all the hustling and I said I'm just as a musician. I'm going to be a sideman So flash forward 10 years um Actually flash forward to 2016. I started a uh A jazz intensive that I did in new york for for four years and now I should mention i'm doing I did it in germany last year Uh, and we're doing it again in october of this year october of 2022 Um, and it's it's cool because I lived in new york and I was like I want to have people come from all over the country all over the world and study jazz In depth in new york and one of the elements of the jazz intensive which is like four days and five nights People would go to concerts and all kinds of stuff and just be immersed in the jazz energy of the city one of the the Elements of that intensive was I put together a house trio So the house trio would do a concert on the opening night and then Uh, people would be able to sit in with them every day and get critiqued both by myself and the band And that was one of the biggest things about the jazz intensive that um Made it successful, you know people got the chance to play with high level new york musicians So the two guys that I chose a wonderful guitar player named shawn harkness and great bass player named michael o bryan um I chose them because I thought they'd be pretty open First they were amazing musicians. Of course new york is full of them. It's rotten with them But then we I figured they would be good at educating I just from their personalities and they were patient and they were articulate and whatever So I ended up then hiring these guys not only for the jazz intensives But whenever I got a call for a little corporate gig or you know private event or whatever Uh, I would always call them and we start we realized that we had this insanely great rapport we would every night at the jazz intensive the opening concert was Just uh us playing, you know to sort of set set the stage and um and show What a new york band is all about and With no effort these guys, you know, the three of us just fell together and we would have the best time And we would go off on all kinds of tangents and directions with no rehearsal We just it's like and just threw repertoire together. What do you got? What do you got original this that and after a while? It was like maybe we should do something with this because this is pretty special So flash forward now to 2020. No, we haven't done anything because our schedules are so crazy You know, we're all working and doing a million things Now we're in a pandemic and I during 2020 I took my jazz intensive I did an online jazz intensive and people did it online But we still did a concert And I was like if we're going to go into a studio and set up mics and everything and do a concert Let's record an album. So we recorded an album Now that this is august of 2020 almost two years ago. I had no idea what I was going to do with this I didn't know what was going to happen, but I just sort of had it in my back pocket and Flash forward again now another year plus later to December of 2021 And I'm playing at Birdland. I play a lot at Birdland people know I have a regular Monday gig there for almost the whole time I've been in New York and I work with a lot of different artists A label from Nashville was coming up and was recording artists kind of on the cabaret Broadway type scene that I was working in And I ended up playing on three of the records that they recorded So December of last year, I'd gotten to know them. I went to them and I said, hey, um I have this jazz record. I'm just sitting on it And do you know of any labels that might want to put out a jazz record? You know not even thinking that'd be something that they would do because every record I did with them was a vocal record As you know, yeah, and it was more a great american song book that kind of stuff I said it's kind of more modern. There's a lot of originals So they They said well actually part of our mission is we want to put out Instrumental jazz as well as as the vocal stuff So I'd love to listen to it. So they listened to it. They loved it and suddenly we're signing with them And things are happening. Bam. It's happening and we we had a Uh already right around that time had a release had a gig set up at Birdland the owner let us do a gig So that became our cd release event and now we had this deadline We had to work towards getting the record together The great thing about them was that they have a major label digital distribution Nobody really has physical distribution unless you're taylor swift, you know, you don't nobody carries CDs But yeah digital distribution. It's a whole new world with spotify and pandora and You know using facebook and youtube and it's it's a big deal. So having A digital distribution with virgin which is who does ours Which is a major Is great because it opens up certain doors and changes the algorithms So you're heard by a lot more people at least or they're promoting it actively within spotify or within these platforms so anyway That's that's how we got to it and I I feel like I'm sort of torn in so many directions as a drummer. I'm not a Foremost jazz drummer. I am very into jazz. I'm a good jazz drummer, but I do a lot of other things uh and One of the cool things about this group of guys is that we're we're not felt like we're limited I think one of the great things about being in the 21st century And being in the world of jazz is that you can kind of do whatever the hell you want And it can kind of be called jazz as long as there's sort of improvisation happening and uh soloing and that kind of interaction Anything is fair game and kind of if you think about like mark juliana and robert glasper Who I just saw in a free concert two nights ago mind-blowing chris dave was playing drums It's fun. That's a funk gig, but yet they're improvising and just doing the most amazing kind of stuff There's a lot of listening and interacting. So yeah, it's jazz, you know, great Of course, there's no spang-spang-a-lang going on and there's no there's no standards But he took he covered some tunes, you know He did smells like teen spirit and everybody wants to rule the world tunes that I didn't Think I'd be hearing from robert glasper But anyway, wow, but but like pieces of them not even you know, not like a direct cover So one of the things that we had jammed on at one of these little private parties with this trio was Smoke on the water as a joke, right smoke on the water is one of those tunes that it's like a caricature of itself It's like free bird or yeah stairway to heaven, you know where it's just like it's like more cowbell You know, it's just it's just become like something that's so You know, it's like the first song you learn almost exactly the first song you learn And then immediately you're way too cool to ever play it again Exactly, you know and yeah deep purple still does it because it's their song so good on them but like, you know anyway We came up with this version of smoke on the water that is It's just our own thing and it's almost Has so little to do with the original smoke on the water other than it's the same chords and melody But it's really it alludes to it. It alludes to it, but it's not yeah, and I so, you know, and we actually added speaking of british invasion Cream, you know the air clap and jack bruce ginger baker We added a cream song. It's not on the album But it's going to be on the next album and it's our it was our show opener And it's the tune I feel free and it's again Totally taken into its own direction, which is very exciting But that's you know The band this this album just it's it's more about the vibe of the band and our I like to say it's like three kids in a sandbox And so because of the eclectic nature of the band and eclectic nature I wanted it to be different than just another jazz album And so when we went in to shoot the cover I said well, let's just set up a white background like most you think jazz covers They're dark in a dark club and there's some serious guy with glasses on, you know Smoking or like just looking so cool And we're like what if we totally did the opposite and I just started goofing I picked up a pair of sticks in the snare drum and just started doing crazy weird things And going into weird positions with this white background And I had the other two guys do that and when we looked at all the footage or the photos There's this picture of me just kicking straight out to the camera and it's such a cool shot. It's very 3d I was gonna say it's 3d it it like it's 3d, but not obviously, but it gives you it's a sense of depth to yeah, and and the word bam just came to me and I you know because my nickname in royal crown review was bam, bam and bam is a percussive sound And I feel like that picture of me kicking. It's just like here. We are bam You know like here's this record bam And I looked at a lot of old Covers for inspiration going back to the fifths a lot of those very cool jazz covers from the 50s There was all kinds of a man 60s And I just decided like the three of us kind of each picture was taken separately But but sort of put together as a as a montage with the word bam Which takes up about half the size of the cover you can't miss it You know with an exclamation point the album is bam exclamation point. What's the title again? Oh, yeah, it's so, you know, I thought either this is going to like Charm people and people are gonna love this or it's gonna be a Embarrassment and die a horrible death. Thankfully. I was my hunch was right And you know, we're up and running and I think it's it's crazy I'm back on the band lady thing. I sunk a lot of money into this record It's my record, you know, even though that's a trio but Of course, but at the same time like I'm the way I'm gonna work it is we're hopefully gonna do In addition to playing gigs, we're gonna do Clinicky things together and educational things together that we've been doing already And that's gonna get us to wherever and then we'll do our concerts and you know You have to kind of these days if you have a jazz group You got to figure out some way to finance the thing and so we'll see what happens That's who you are is the clinician and the teacher. I mean, that's there's no point It's silly to separate the two because really that's I mean, that's what you're great at I mean, I think it it's just a part of you. So it's it's great to put them together And people like I said people who know me as a drummer who plays historical styles They're gonna be very surprised when they hear this record because it's very modern and I you know I I am an eclectic person and that's why I can't just be satisfied with like well I'm gonna study, you know rhythm and blues with the forties and fifties No, I've got to go from ragtime all the way up to today and try to become an expert in all those styles But part of me has always loved very modern and contemporary jazz and I want to do something Artistic that tries to break some barriers in my own way and do some some things that You know are new And so I'm trying to go out and see the Robert Glaspers and the Mark Julianas I'm trying to listen to pop music and you know, just draw from I mean, that's the beauty We have all this freedom today to really draw from a lot of stuff and to kind of repackage it into our own Image so to speak our own vibe and one of the nicest compliments I got I did a thing with Sean Kennedy who's a percussionist. He's more he plays drum set great But he's also a legit classical percussionist in dc And he has a podcast and we were talking and he said what I would say about this album daniel is that It is a representation of you like all of it is just you to the max and I thought that's awesome I'll take that. You know, yeah, yeah It's taking all the bits of history that you've learned throughout your entire career and just kind of but you're also like A cool guy and you you it comes out in a I mean not everything you do is Uh academia. It's it's it's boiled down to like all right now. This is what actually comes out as you being the Just the the the the person as opposed to the historian. So I think it's great I've listened to it mainly in my kitchen just kind of doing stuff around the kitchen and it because again with a Kid and a baby. I'm just like it's just good and everyone likes it. I feel like it's very listenable Um, it's just awesome. And I I I can't recommend it enough. So what I will do is put in in the description Uh, the link for the album at daniel's website Um, a link to the books including the uh, basically a couple of the books you've done that we've we've talked about in the past But um, obviously the roots of rock drumming which I highly recommend. Um, the commandment's book, which uh, the command Yeah, exactly. Yep. I'll put everything in there and everyone can find it and your your website has everything as well But um, yeah, daniel, um, I just can't thank you enough for coming back on you're someone who I've always really before I started doing this on my own I really looked up to and was watching your uh, you know century project video which again I'll put in the description because that's a huge influence. Um On that note daniel. Thank you for being here my friend. Thank you bard and you're doing great work, man And I'm always about keeping our instrument the history the evolution our heritage and our traditions alive and informing people because you know, if You're not going to make good music tomorrow. If you don't know where you come from there's just all there is to it and it's so inspiring as well in Today's world where people are so easily Dismayed and depressed and isolated and lonely. There's this whole incredible world out there Which is our history and we it's still alive. It's living and we can tap into it and be inspired by it. So Yeah, thanks, you know, thanks for for for you sharing it