 HBCU digest radio digest after dark unfiltered and uncensored talk with young alumni from historically black colleges universities and this is a commencement edition of sorts. So we got two, two of our sisters here who are graduating this year with advanced degrees not undergraduate advanced degrees. And I don't know if it's fortunately or unfortunately both of them from Hampton. So this is almost like an all Hampton show. So we have Taylor by way of Hampton University and St. Louis, of course. And then Dr. Eatman, Una as we call her by way of Brooklyn also of Hampton, same birthday both Gemini's both with both with advanced level degrees. So first, this is congratulations. How does it feel Taylor one, this is your this is your first masses, correct? Yes, it is. And then this is like your fifth degree. I didn't hear it. I'm sorry. This is like your fifth degree because you got a doctor. You got a masses. This is the NBA. That's like 80 degrees. Now, this is the third masses. Now, what makes us impressive is that she did have she did have the foresight to go get an MBA from Morgan State University. So we are rejoicing in that fact. So we want to talk about the research that you two did because I think it's important even at even at a masses level for the students that listen to this podcast and they're interested in going into advanced degree work to hear the kind of the process of developing a thesis or developing a dissertation topic and then fleshing that through and seeing how it goes from start to finish. So Taylor, since this is your first and you you are walking into the experience new tell us about your capstone and the institution where you're at and in the process of developing that idea and seeing it through to completion. Yeah. So currently, I am at the George Washington University located in Washington, D.C. George Washington University is a predominantly white institution, PWI for the people out there. I'm getting my master's in master's in higher education administration, concentration student affairs. My research is grounded in historically black colleges and universities in my capstone explored other mother the framework and also exploring how other mothering and the essence of love, support and care at HBCUs can manifest itself and other smothering developed and critique the other mothering framework by providing an enhanced and redefined framework for HBCU student affairs professionals to use with other mothering. So for this, it's it's more of a focus on what I would imagine student affairs staff can use. Yes, to figure out how they can cultivate a more nurturing environment for HBCU students. So what was what was the the data gathering process like the formation of the idea of the the literature of you might let's walk through all that. So this is one of the things for me with it is that so with GW, not being a PWI, there's nobody in my faculty that attended HBCU for undergrad. There is one professor who has done some small research on HBCUs. Dr. Ken McYoung folks has probably read read her stuff about HBCUs that she's done. But it's from years ago. And so my actual capstone was birthed from a class that I took through the consortium. So you are a part of any DC school. You have the opportunity to do the consortium where you can take classes at GW, American, Howard, Catholic or any of those schools. And so I had the lovely opportunity to use the consortium to take diversity and multiculturalism at Howard last semester with Dr. Larry Walker. He taught that class and from that class, we discussed a lot about diversity, multiculturalism and how that shows up at minority serving institutions, but specifically HBCUs. From there, we talked a lot about, you know, other mothering and the concepts of caring for students at HBCUs and how that framework is used. And so for me, I've always struggled a little bit with the other mothering framework because of my own lived experiences at HBCU and just from informal conversations with friends and family members who have attended them and love ones who have attended them and almost just noticing that some of our student affairs professionals, advisors, whether it's an advisor of a student or your academic advisor and how they use, utilize the other mothering framework to almost silence our authentic sales and our experiences in those spaces. So from that, my mentor and also my sore, Dr. Latanya Colin Smith from Harris State University, she was the first person where I actually talked this through like this idea of how oftentimes people always tell you one of the great reasons to go to HBCU is because of the other mothering field, that familiar field, that family field. About going and I was talking to her about I struggled with it because in my own lived experience, I've had opportunities and conversations with advisors where I've discussed how I wanted my life to look like post graduation. And I can remember when I was talking with an advisor about how I didn't want to go into graphic design. I didn't want to do it corporate America style. I wanted to go back and be a teacher. I want to teach graphic design. I want to go back to St. Louis and do that. And I explicitly remember that advisor telling me, like, you know, you're basically making the wrong decision. You need to go into corporate, you know, because so you can make money. And I felt weird about even going back and forth or even advocating for myself why, because this advisor has always expressed to me that everything they do comes from a place of love and care. So if I dealt with an internal conflict because of that, that feeling of like, well, we're a family here. Like you don't want to go against family, right? It up silence in myself. And I actually never felt comfortable again to talk to my advisor about my dreams and my aspirations because I was like, well, it was almost as if like when you don't want to talk to your mama about like very personal things that you really want to do. Right. Like come at you. And so, but of course, back then, I didn't know this was considered like, you know, a part of other mothering. And I didn't know that terminology or language back then. And so it wasn't until Dr. Walker's class where we started reading more of the literature on the mothering because most folks in the field will tell you how important other mothering is within the HPC community, which is correct. It is 100 percent correct. But I want to explore how student student affairs professionals can actually turn other mothering into other smothering. Smothering came about from the interview that I did with. And when I spoke with Dr. Latanya Colin Smith, when I went back home and just talked to her about experiences and then also from the interviews that I did with friends and conversations about how it almost turned into like a helicopter parent where you had those advisors or student affairs professionals just basically telling you this is what we feel is best for you or just not even trying to fully understand the students' authentic self and their experience in the notion of love and care because we are a family and how that can manifest itself and end up silencing the student experience. Dr. Steve Mobley talks a lot about it in a report that I also cited in my work about how other mothering sometimes can manifest itself where it can silence the experience of LGBTQIA plus students as well. Oh, let me let me stop there because you're you getting heavy. There's a lot of stuff that we can do that's how it came about. It really came from about my own lived experiences and just also reflecting a lot about interactions that I've had with student affairs professionals at HBCUs and just how I dealt with internal conflicts and then just those around me. Dr. Walker really had us do a lot of reflection in his class and we did a lot of writing about, you know, moments of when we felt like internal conflicts or when we felt uncomfortable in situations. And so from that class, that is how my capstone was birthed. Now, the interesting thing about both of you is that you're you're taking this degree experience to find two ideas about improving HBCUs. Now, only you're doing something if you don't mind sharing because yours is actually a business concept that dramatically improve HBCUs. So talk a little bit about that, how you kind of fleshed you then birth that through your MBA experience. Right. So it actually started with my doctoral experience being at a HSI Hispanic serving institution where I earned my degree and looking around and seeing that I was one of the few Afro Latinas there. So with that, with noticing that and then going back to my Hampton and Norfolk State experience, I realized like, hey, there's a whole population that we're not speaking to. At which point I said, well, maybe I should get an MBA so I could learn more about the business side, how I got to Morgan and the MBA program. And so the name of my my business is HBCU Palante. It's a contraction Palante means it's para and adelante put together and Palante means upward or upward forward. So it's pushing HBCUs into a different space but still maintaining the mission because I think that's very important. I think oftentimes when we hear diversity at HBCUs, we get scared. And I want to maintain that. So my my my business plan is to bring Afro Latinos to Afro Latinx students to HBCUs or as well as excuse me, as well as show HBCUs how to glean that population. Now, what was it like to to have an idea in mind before you even got in the program? Because as Taylor just mentioned, hers was birthed out of like taking classes and hearing lectures and reading the literature on certain student affairs theory. Yours was something that you already had in advance of starting the degree program. So what was it like to know what the end is and then go into the MBA program and say, OK, now, how do I make this fit with what I want to do? It was actually I didn't I wasn't sure how it would fit. But it came together perfectly like some of my professors, they really pushed me to get the business aspect. I know hustle, I'm from Brooklyn, but beyond that, like, you know, I need to know my, you know, the books and things of that nature. So I really like I really wanted to hone that skill set. So when I would when I use the same strategy that I used for my doctorate in that I made sure that every paper I wrote about was about the thing that I was interested in. So when I was at FIU, I did everything on HBCUs and sorority life and PhDs with that excuse me at Morgan. I did the same thing. I kept writing about Latinx students about that experience, about HBCUs, about enrollment, increasing enrollment and how it brings diversity, but does it water it down? It's just fascinating to me because it's. You see HBCU students, they take their experiences and their education and they turn that into and really work hard to translate that into something that they can do and use in the community, right? So with the last three minutes of this section, I would ask you both. Do you feel that what you've done in these degree programs that you're completing is something that you can turn over and teach somebody, use it, sell it to somebody on the campus that they can use, let's say maybe not 2019, but 2020. Is it something that's translatable in some kind of product that people could use? Well, as far as mine is concerned, HBCU Palante is LLC. I actually just did a presentation today at Morgan in the Grind Conference. Yes. So better work. Yeah, come on, Twin. So, you know, made sure that it was out there and and listen to other other presenters. But there were definitely faculty and staff exchange business cards. So I'll be sending some emails tonight. Just got home, did a did a quick to Baltimore and back to Brooklyn early this morning, four o'clock this morning and just got back at eight o'clock. So, you know, made it happen. But it's definitely something that the the faculty and staff were interested in. They kept asking me questions and how does this fit? They wanted my secret sauce, couldn't tell them that, right? But they they were definitely interested in. I could I could see the interest peaked. So I know that I have something and it's just making it's tailoring it to each institution because they kept asking me, you know, well, what would you do for Morgan? Well, first you'd have to pay me. That's right. But the other part of that is what I would do at Hampton University isn't the same thing I would do at Morgan University is in a place where there are a lot of military bases. So you have a lot of transient students. So we may want to put those online. Hampton, you listener. So that being said, I wouldn't necessarily do that at Morgan because even the demographic, it's a state institution, Hampton is private. It's a younger demographic than Morgan. So, you know, just looking at all the different pieces and what they already have there and working with that. So nothing that that that is going to be like a fiscal failure, but just things that can be tweaked in order to actually glean the population and up enrollment. Like your article said, this is the first time we're up in enrollment since what, 2017? Let's ride that. And it's the first time. I'm not the first time, but we're steadily watching Latinx students graduating from high school, getting associate's degrees, getting bachelor's degrees. Why can't they come to HBCUs? I went and I know some Dominicans, some other Puerto Ricans. We were all together, eating our rice and beans and having fun. So they can come to. Taylor, you would say yours is something that could turn over into some kind of training mechanism or some kind of module for for leadership development on campus. Yes. So that's exactly one of my goals that I wanted to come from my research and even the reason why I also pushed myself to redefine the framework because it's easy for you to critique something. It's easy for you to just say, this isn't working in this way. And that's not how I operate in regards of my research. And because of my love for HBCUs, my goal was not to just talk about the like the issues that I have or the qualms I have with how other mothering may manifest itself in ways. My goal was to enhance the current framework that is out there and to provide even better ways for student affairs professionals to use it. What I've noticed is that people talk about other mothering, but no one has really talked about how to make it practical, how to make the framework practical. And one thing that I love about Oona is that Oona actually was a part of my process of developing this from like literally from dry raceboard to all the random post-it notes that are over my up still here. She was a part of that. She was helping me figure out, you know, how do we make this not just, OK, we're doing the research. I created a capstone I presented and it's done. And so one of the cool things is that everyone I have talked to about it. This is now I presented my capstone twice. The first time I did my research, I presented it, of course, in Dr. Walker's class, but for my capstone, I, of course, expanded upon it and built on it more. Everyone has told me, A, I need to go ahead and publish it in a journal. And then B, also, folks are asking how can they get me to come to their school to talk about the redefined framework that I've developed? As my framework includes a lot of bail hooks, ethic of love and love as a practice of freedom, but also helping and counseling skills to support the other mother and framework as well in it. And so but it's definitely my goal, except for me to be traveling and bringing this to HBCUs. And like Eunice said, every HBCU also needs to know how to use the other mother mothering framework to fit and suit them. And so I have a lot of different variations of it, whether it is like supporting LGBTQI plus students, whether it's supporting first gen students that come from rural areas, whether it's, you know, working with students who have experience with college access, but they have never been to college. So they have knowledge about how to do well in college, but it doesn't really show up well in that space. And so, yeah, my goal was not for this just to be published and for me to just present and be like, I made it. I want my other mother in and versus others mother in to be where schools are calling me and like, hey, we want you to come and train and work with our student affairs professionals because they're on the ground with our students. They're the front facing ones. They're doing the orcs and also not for free because this degree wasn't free, but coming out there and do the work out of love. And of course, to help us progress and transcend to where we need to be for our students that are showing up on our campuses. Perfect, perfect. We're going to take our first break when we come back. I'm going to ask some light around questions. So this is about the differences between their undergraduate and graduate experiences. And the unique thing is we got one vantage point from a PWI and the other one from another HBCU. So it should be some interesting feedback. That just at the dark. We'll be right back. That just at the dark. We're back with Dr. Huna and Master Taylor talking about the commencement experience from HBCUs into advanced degree work. And now we want to get into a conversation about the differences not just between HBCUs and PWIs, but even between cultural differences among HBCUs, both of these sisters have obviously the Hamptonian experience when they think they're better than everybody. So they came out arrogant. Here you go. It's all get out. So that's a good thing. But does that translate? Does that translate into a new culture where a lot of different people from a lot of different institutions are coming for degree work and they're trying to figure out a new city in some cases and they're trying to figure out, OK, well, how much do I align with this campus's identity? I guess for degree work, did you find it to be that way both of y'all? So for me, it was I found a lot of people. Well, OK, so I have a master's from Norfolk State and then this one I'm about to earn on the 16th of May. But it was definitely coming from Hampton. It was definitely different in that. Oh, especially in Norfolk State. Yeah, no, come on. Come on, come on, come on. Do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. Behold or something. Right. Behold or something. So I got to know some state. OK, so but no. So going to. I'll use my most recent experience going to Morgan and being a Hamptonian. A lot of them were undergraduate. They got their undergrad from Morgan. So that was a different experience, because a lot of when I went to Norfolk State, a lot of them weren't didn't get their undergrad from Morgan State. Interesting. And I saw way more white people in Norfolk State. I don't know if it was my program or because I didn't, you know, run the demographics or anything like that, just within my class. My my my classes. And then for me, when the at Morgan, when the students were, let's say my age and older, there was a disconnect. Like there wasn't really a connection to the to the campus and what's going on. But some of the professors would give extra credit if you came to some of the functions. So that got you involved, which I appreciated, especially the extra credit. Rummy that. But it was like it was very helpful at Norfolk State. I didn't get that. I didn't have that experience where you got extra credit. I know Taylor could speak to, you know, when we had, you know, what's that freshman week where you had to you had your card and you had to make sure you went to all the events in order to go to the party. Yeah. Here's the reason why I asked that. And I know y'all can appreciate this. When at Hampton, every class has their own little. I forget how y'all call it, but some are like ogre. I'm quintessence eight. I'm honest five. I'm hottest class under the sun. See, a lot of people don't know what that means. I'm a black diamond. I'm quintessence eight. The original swag serve all the end. The why the act. A lot of people don't know what that is. And so and I find like in a lot of the campuses that I've worked with and I've been to nobody has that where every single entering class has a, I guess, a designation, right? So was that strange to go from a place like Hampton where you have, you know, most most campuses have, you know, set Friday or set Wednesday, you know, something, something like that, right? Like sometime of the day or during the week where everybody just hangs out on the yard, everybody has that. Everybody has something in the cab. Everybody has game day culture for you guys, because Hampton is very unique in that way. Did you go to your respective grad programs and say, OK, well, I'm anxious to see what you guys have in the way of the undergraduate part? Or was it just I'm just doing my work here? I know for me. Um, so for me, I knew that I needed to have a family feel the institution where I was at. Now I'm going to quickly say that GW does not automatically give you that. And so I think it's important when we talk about like graduate school experience and even talking about the different transitions from my HBCU experience to where I'm at now is also the institution itself. So W is a open campus in the in downtown five bottom D.C. Was one way in one way out closed, you know, so we are all here together. GW's mission statement says all the time for students to get out and explore D.C. for them to be global and international. And so even within their mission, it doesn't talk about like cultivating the student experience within the school. GW also doesn't have a cafeteria and they do not have a student center or a student union. And so that was extremely difficult for me when I got here. I think the thing for me that also is different for a lot of other grads that I was a live on. So my graduate assistantship, I originally was working in residential life, and so that made me live on campus with the students. So by me living on campus with the students, I I had to seek out places for me to cultivate community and GW doesn't give you that automatically. So when I got to GW, the first thing I tried to look for was a diversity center or a multicultural center because I was like, I remember all my friends who went to PWIs were like, they hung out in the Multicultural Student Center. So that was the first thing that I like sought after when I got to GW, especially because I knew that I would be living there. And I still live there now. I serve on call. I'm the feds on campus, but that's neither here nor there. Oh, man, why would you expose that? That was the first thing I looked for. But it was extremely difficult. Like I struggled the first semester at GW because of the fact that community was not, it literally was not embedded into their culture. Like I said, they don't have a student center and they don't have a cab. So I was like, well, how the hell do y'all like get together? Right. How do y'all because I mean, like, it's food, like, where do y'all eat? And so that was very hard for me because, you know, in Hampton, you come to the cab, like you argue with your homegirl if they leave you and don't tell you, right? That really like threw me off and I'm not going to lie. Like I suffered from like homesickness. The thing that did save me is that I was very particular about where I applied to grad school, so all of my best friends from undergrad lived no more than 30 minutes away from me. So that was very big for me to have my other family entity. But still at the same time, like we all are grown now. So it's not like we live on campus. You know, they work. Folks, you know, also in grad school or getting there in doctoral programs, too. So it wasn't like I could always see them. But my first semester at GW, I struggled and was at one point thinking, like I probably need to transfer. Wow. Yeah. So yeah, it was it was hard for me the first the very first semester. And it was also even harder my second semester because I faced a lot of family like issues or like a lot of a lot of, you know, I spent a lot of grief. I lost a lot of people. And so not having that sense of community, I struggled a lot. My first year with that from that community that GW did not have embedded. Now, I built the community through the Black Graduate Student Association. And because my roommate, who I just happened to be a Black woman who happened to be who graduated from my NC State, but who also was like a stream of Black feminist thought, like with it. I lucked up in many ways. I really do think God was like, it's going to be a lot for her. So let's give her someone. But I struggled my first year. So let me let me ask both of you then. Then how do you how would you tell a senior who's getting ready to walk in the next couple of weeks that you you make it through those things? Because I think all of us have either lived through the experience of like not liking that graduate that graduate school experience or knowing somebody that really is like, yo, I'm out of here. I'm about to just quit or I'm about to transfer. So both of you are like, what are the strategies that you say? Here's how you get through it academically, socially, personally. I think just like Taylor was saying moments ago, you have to find the family. Even even the doctorial program. I found the you know, the cluster of of Black women and I still check. There's one more that we trying to get out the program and then it'll be all of us will be done, but we all checked on each other and we continue to check on each other and send each other materials on their particular subject matter. But see it through. You're there. I don't I'm not one to switch institutions. Even Taylor was talking about living on campus. I was a RD at Morgan and after leaving Morgan, I still wanted to complete my program. I started something. I'm going to complete it. So I continued in the program, even though I was in Brooklyn. And though I was an online student, some of the the courses didn't fit the online, I guess, that that setup. So I drove from Brooklyn to Baltimore. I still think that's crazy. I mean, and then, you know, when I had to teach at Hampton, I would drive from Baltimore to Hampton and teach there and then come back down and drive and do whatever. But because my education meant something to me. And I know that that I didn't get here by chance. And when I was down, there were things against me. I could call on Taylor to call on me. I could call on Tiffany. Like we made a situation where it was like, I feel like something is going on with you. I don't know what it is, but I'm praying for you. So and but I think we got that from our HBCUs, because, you know, I would even hit Tiffany up and, you know, her being a graduate of Howard, it still was the same thing. And then Chad, another graduate from Howard, was, you know, pushing me to like, I remember it was I had, I was taking two courses and he was like, well, why you don't take three? And I'm about to let no bison come at me and be like, why you ain't take three? You're not taking enough classes. Yeah, I was like, oh, see me in each street. So now, so now I'm taking five this semester so I can graduate and just be done with this and and and I may or may not be alive as I'm speaking right now. But it was it's that push and different people will push you. And I think it's about instead making your circle. Oh, I'm back immediately. Yeah, constant making your circle, enlarging your circle. I didn't it wasn't intentional by me, but it was definitely directed. Nothing for me, definitely. And I I've I've talked a lot about this, even for the undergraduate population here at UW, I've done like several like speaking engaged, the kids flocked to me. You know, I don't know times, but I guess it's the auntie spirit I may possess. I don't know over there, smothering people and you know it. I'm not I did the research. And they say and they say bad stuff about Gemini. See, we're amazing people. I'm just saying that I always talk to my students about it. And when folks ask me to come in and talk about building community and why it's so important, it is literally that village learning that gets us through. And I think that's one thing that I always tell students when they're going through their graduate programs, even when they're going off to college, no matter how much you may think that you are doing this by yourself, whether you are first gen, whether whatever your live experiences are, whatever your circumstances are, to this, you're never doing this fully alone. And you have to. I've actually never been a big fan of the self made term in the essence that you do it all alone. I don't believe in it. I didn't get here by myself. I didn't get to me completing my capstone on my own. I didn't get to me about to walk across this stage in May, May 18th, to be exact, on my own. And so that is very important, I think, for folks when they are seeking their graduate school experience to actually even ask themselves before they go, what does their village currently look like? And how can they bring that village with them? Or if they can't even bring it with them, how are they going to cultivate that when they get there? Because I'm going to tell people now the institution isn't always going to provide you that village or the community. That might not even be their or even top five priorities. It definitely was not GWs when I came here. I honestly say I have forced the institution to think about it about community and how it manifests itself here. But I really when I realized that GW wasn't going to provide it for me, I knew I needed it for myself to survive and thrive. And so with that, I give love and blessings and thanks to Howard family, that PhD, that that group there, Ashley Gray, Brandon, Breonna Clark, all of them held me down in ways that I never thought. Was that the was that the higher the higher aid program? Yeah, so I was the only master student in that class like write an email and be like, Hey, y'all. Um, so but they they literally held me down so much. And the cool thing about it was that with Howard not being so far away from GW, that was another home away from home. When you are going to grad programs, ask if they have a Black Graduate Student Association, the well, hold hold that real quick, because we got to take another quick break, but that's exactly what I wanted to get into, which is how can HBCU students effectively target search for screen graduate programs that can, I guess, be the best fit for them? We always talk about how undergrads can find the best campus for them and how they should go about doing that research. But we rarely talk about doing the same thing for graduate school. So we're going to take another quick break. We're going to come back and talk right about that. I just have to darken. We'll be right back. No, I just have to darken. We're back. Talk about how GW just knocks down a calf because the students don't like the food. And if that happened at HBCU, I can't even imagine. I could imagine if the students actually coordinated to say, we don't like the food, the administration, probably be like, so what? Y'all good. Like that'll be that'll be the official response. Y'all good. We might get a new company or whatever. That's how y'all that's how we ended up with the with the new calf. I know we're going to stop calling the new calf at Hampton. It's always it's always going to be a new calf. That's how we do it. OK, I got to pick a new calf, too. Let's talk about this. So before we left, we were talking about building community and that's the way that you can adjust to tough times in graduate school and culture shocks from coming from an HBCU to a different even a even another HBCU in another city or another geographic type. But how can students most effectively target the school that works for them? So we always tell undergrads like, hey, if you're from a small community or a small family, you got to be careful about picking a really big school because you might not like so many people. You might not like to be in a big city. You might be overwhelmed. Some some students like that. They want to do that. They want to get to somewhere like that. We tell them that you look for the right kind of program. If you want to be a nurse, don't go to a school that has superior engineering. That may not be a good fit for you. Make sure that you pick a school that's strong in the major that you want to pursue. Make sure that you have, you know, proximity to things that matter most to you, that there's a church there that you may want to consider going to. If your faith is a big part of your life, make sure that the football or the sports culture is something big for you. If you came from a high school like in Texas, where that's a big part of your experience, how do we tell graduate students or soon to be graduate students to embody that same strategy because they're they're looking at experience where I'm just going to class and I'm going home. All I want is class, a job and somewhere to live. So how do you how do you tell HBCU graduates or soon to be graduates that they can most effectively target a graduate school for them? Not, I mean, outside of LSAT, GMAT and all the things they got to take, but identifying a campus, a community, a city that's best for them. What are some of the best practices that you would tell them? I think I can pick up. I know for me it my experience was kind of similar to how I was looking for my undergraduate experience, especially if you are going to be moving to the area where you are going to graduate school, I know some folks do online programming programs. So it might look different. But for those who are looking to relocate and to live where they are going to be going to graduate school, it's very important for them to find the opportunities to visit and tour the campus. I think graduate students or folks who are going into grad school have this idea like been there done that I did my undergrad experience. I don't need new friends. You know, like you said, I'm coming in to get this degree, get this coin, get the bag and secure it and I'm out. But if you are definitely relocating, I recommend for you to visit the schools. When you are applying, definitely apply for priority deadlines. So maybe you can get thrown out for students days when you come in to interview for graduate assistantships. But I always recommend for folks to visit and tour the schools. And when they get there, ask about what are the resources that you have explicitly for black folks? Now, who do you ask that to? Do you ask that to black students or do you ask it to personnel? To everyone. OK, so you ask it when you are even when you're just looking to the school, when you already know what the program is and all that stuff. And they're like, what else would you like to know? Ask them what are the resources that you have for black students? Or if you identify from like students of color or things like that. You ask them what are those resources? As soon if they start stumbling, that's a red flag for it. They start stumbling, they start stumbling. I don't know since I live in Alexandria. I ain't from Foggy, but I feel like what are the resources that y'all have on campus for black students? What are the resources that you have in the department for black students? You're counseling and mental health services like for black students. Do you have folks who are who are comfortable to work with students of color and black students in your counseling centers? Because I'm going to tell you now, I use GW's counseling and therapy services. Like it was like I was drinking water. I mean, I'm not laughing at that. But the way you said water, that's a good thing. That was a real thing. And so also it was very real. I got lucky that I happened to have a counselor again, because this were by Howard, I had a counselor who got her masters and got her did all of her work in counseling from Howard. So she was able to work. She understood a lot of what I was coming from, but we also had a connection where I felt comfortable in my counseling sessions with her. And a lot of people about those resources, of course, people are always like, what's the financial aid package looking like? You know, you all get married based scholarship. But I don't think we ask enough about how are your wellness services to support me because I feel in any undergraduate telling them that this is going to be a breeze. You need to have that mental health support, but you also need to know what does the institution already have set in place for black students at the school as a whole. And then for black students, because they might spit out and be like, oh, we have the BSU. Well, that's traditionally historically for undergraduates. Do you all have a black graduate student association? Do you all have the black graduates of the higher ed program? Do you all have things that are specifically for me and my identities that I want to be served? That's like my first thing. Like figuring out those is like what I definitely want. Undergraduate who who are applying to grad school and who are gotten into them and they're trying to decide like those are now the questions I would tell them to start asking. Everything she said. But you know what? Because because because as I as I reflect on my my HSI experience, though, I was lacking all of that. If it had not been for my sorrows and my frat, I wouldn't have made it out. And my cousin shot out to Sigma Lambda Gamma Sigma Lambda Beta. But they there was no way because there wasn't there wasn't anything there for me. And like Taylor said, BSU was for undergrad. I had actually never heard of BSU going to Hampton and the state. Right. And when I got, I remember one of one of one of the D9 members, they was like, oh, you coming to the BSU meeting. And I was like, what's that? And they were like, black student union, you know, with the neck roll and everything. You don't know. Right. And I was like, I went to two HBCU that we were all black. Like there was no need to like we don't need a union, though. We are the union. Right. Like we just stood out in front of the cab. It was no biggie. So that was very and and it was undergrad. And I guess because I was young, but still like I was 25. So I fit their undergraduate demographic because they had older students, generally not the traditional, you know, 18 to 22. And so I fit. So everybody thought I was undergrad and I would just go to the BSU meetings just to have some type of camaraderie outside of blue and white, because it was there was none. And I stayed at the at the mental health. And and that's actually how I figured out that I had a learning disability because I was struggling in stats for doc students. And I asked my my counselor, like, do you think I have a learning disability? And she was like, I don't know, go get tested. It's half off for our students. And I was like, bet, let's go get tested. This is also why we're friends, because the same thing happened to me. See, and I failed with flying colors and found out and found that I had like the when the doc when the doctor came back, she was like, I don't know how to tell you this. And I was like, just, you know, just say it. And she was like with a heavy accident. She was like, you are slow. And I was like, what? Say, say it slow. She was like, you are slow. Basically, she said my ADHD was so heavy. She doesn't understand how I got through college. Right. Yeah. Through college, through a master's degree and was working on my doctor. I think I was in my second year by that point. She was like, I don't understand how you weren't on meds already, because this is like this is off the chain. And I just said beatings, because that was the only way that I stayed straight. That's what I was like, I guess I beat myself. I don't know. But like just again, seeing it through, like there was no, you know, not before, during or after you got to see it through. So I think that that family having someone to call on, that's when I got on Twitter heavy, too, because I needed to talk to somebody. Twitter saved my life, too. Yeah, I need to talk to people really who had thought. Yeah. Yeah. Look. Yes. In real life. Twitter saved my when I say saved my life. There is a whole world of black graduates who are experiencing the exact same thing as you. And I found even like a virtual in Twitter community from CIDA sister on Twitter from Black Docs, even though I'm not in a doctoral program. But just Twitter really to meet people where it made me realize that I was not alone in this experience because you can literally feel like in grad school, like, oh, especially as a first-gen student, like you can feel like what the hell did I decide to do? Because grad school is a whole other beast and especially the institution that I went to, GW automatically assumed everybody knew how to do a review off top, everybody knew how to write a 50 page paper in in one second. GW doesn't have like for undergraduates, they don't have don't use the term, but they don't have like remedial courses. They don't have like University like math levels. Like they use you get GW, you get started into the math courses. And it's the same kind of in the graduate school program. So there were several times where I syndrome made me feel like I did not belong here, even though I got in, even though when I met professors and folks who were on the admissions team, who remembered my application and what I wrote about because I was a standout candidate and a student, but in that space, I was like, I don't know. What the hell I decided to do? I don't know why I left my mama. I don't know why I left St. Louis. I knew how to navigate floors and I knew how to navigate. I was like, I need to go back to your city. I don't know what we doing over here in these far away lands of DT. I need to be on my mama porch sitting and working and doing all those things. Hold on. So let me ask you this question, because y'all went to y'all went to Hampton. Hampton is a top tier institution, and then you go and then you encounter a literally a different world of academics and culture. Did you did it ever for a second create doubt in your mind about Hampton? Not at all. So for me, it was it was OK. So your ground shook a little bit. Now what you want to do and it it gave me Hampton like it's funny that you ask it that way because that's what kept me in. It's like I'm a Hamptonian. I'm staying right here. Like, you don't you don't know where I come from. Like, because every institution that I've entered, I've said this before, every institution that I've entered, I've entered on academic probation, even Hampton. And with that, it was on some OK, just just get me in the door. If you let me in the door, I could stay and I could graduate. So the same thing happened at Hampton and Norfolk State at FIU, even at Morgan. I was like, just let me in the door because they wanted to use my undergrad. I want to talk about old stuff. Like talk about old stuff. Yeah, like you're talking about old stuff. Right. Like I'm a old doctor now. Yeah, I want to talk about old stuff. Right. Like I'm just in the past. Right. Like anyway. But yeah, so they use that and it was like, well, you got to have a three over. Well, you got to have a three over to graduate. I don't care. Let me just. All right, back door, whatever. And I got in. So I knew from early that if you let me in the door, I can perform. I may not have performed prior because of different things. But once I get in, I'm going to get down to business. And there's no once I start, I can't not finish. I mean, like I always say, I was 12 years a doc student and they wanted me out. They tried. They tried on several occasions, but I'm from Hampton. It's so funny because in talking to other particularly folks in the STEM fields, like they go from like Hampton or Howard or Tuskegee, they go to like Yale and Princeton. And you have some it's a real gap where there are some sisters and brothers who say, yo, man, I got rolled over. I was not prepared for what that work was like, what that workload was like, and what the rigor was like. And that's understandable. OK, you went from you went from Tuskegee to Yale, I get it. And but then you had some brothers and sisters who came out of their HBCU and it would be somewhere like you and me, yes, and they would say or more house and they would say, yeah, I went to Princeton and I once I got there, this work was easy. I played two K most of the time because I was prepared. And I think I think that also I think in those conversations, people leave out a lot of stuff, right? Mm hmm. So given my full background, so I was a fine and perform or major at Hampton. My my major was design. So my stuff was heavy and producing of artwork and, you know, doing literature around art. I also did not I wasn't trained in APA. I was trained in those things. I think a lot of people leave out a lot of information when it comes to that. So for me, there was a learning curve because traditionally I'm an artist by training and my writing style was also under MLA. And so coming into grad school, my program and in higher ed, you write an APA format. Mm hmm. Of course, there was a learning curve there. I think people leave a lot out when they're talking about transition from their undergrad to a graduate school. And even when folks talk about, oh, they went from an HBCU and they went to a PWI and people like, oh, you went to Hampton, like you are supposed to perform well, like don't get me wrong. Like I still believed in myself because I knew I came from Hampton. And I and I learned a lot about how to power through. But also Hampton taught me how to literally ask questions and to advocate for myself. Even when in those moments where I was like imposter syndrome is kicking my ass and I don't know how I'm going to make it through. I was like, the one thing I used to do at Hampton, they used to say, was you better show up at that professor's door. Yep. So that's the office hours. And so the day is a learning there's still a learning curve. And also I was out of school for four years before I came to grad school. So I worked for four years coming. So I wasn't writing papers out of the rhythm of learning and going to class. I think the rhythm went in there. I think the other part of it, too, from my HSI experience, it was I didn't know what to look for. There was nobody I knew from the block that was a doctor. Like I couldn't ask anybody. Like they were I bump literally between Twitter and Facebook. Like that's what kept me like literally I would have one person assist me and then they would disappear and somebody else would appear out of nowhere. And they would help me and they would get me to a point and then somebody else would appear and it. It showed me to trust in my journey. Yeah. And the fact that. When I'm talking to other people and they're deciding what program, what school to actually do the research, the are the professors in your department? Do they have any background in the stuff that you're interested in? Honestly, real rap, I just wanted to be a doctor at first. It was just like, oh, let me just do this. And then I was like, oh, wait, like this is higher. Oh, this is why this happens. Like, you know, and I'm putting it together when when I started writing papers and I was using my my books from undergrad for my doc program. I knew I was on the right path because it was all coming together. And for like Taylor, like Taylor said, you need to be your own advocate. And that's what I became. I learned policy if they try to kick me out on several occasions. I got the letter posted on Facebook once. I'm a post the other one in a couple of days. I know the battle there too. But you know, Hampton tried to kick me out twice, but I still graduated. Pirate, but it's it's definitely having the because nobody when I saw my dissertation was on MPHC sorority women, their academic achievement and civic engagement, when I propose that just verbally, not the true proposal, when I propose that verbally, they the one of the responses I got was all Greeks do is drink and party. And I was like, yeah, let's see this. Y'all want where am I? Am I doing that and still in my ears because it infuriated me. But then I realized this is why I have to finish because of people like that who don't understand. And by the time I defended my dissertation, they understood and they they they had a better understanding of Black sorority life and what we do for each other and that it doesn't just end after the four years that, you know, your undergrad, not even four, because you can't do nothing until you sophomore, but, you know, generally speaking, but that we go on to grad chapters and that we do things beyond you are a life member. My my theoretical framework was community of practice. And within the community of practice, they talk about where members disperse. And I was like, well, this this is the closest I could come to as far as framework is concerned, but it doesn't quite fit because we do not disperse. We don't do part, right? Yeah, we don't depart. It keeps on going until you you take your last breath. You are forever a sister. So you're forever a soror. So that was different for them. So I knew it was there with purpose. And I knew I was standing on like even when I was doing my research, finding, you know, all this information on on AKAs and Delta's and Zeta's and SG Rose. And it just even even in getting participants, I was getting my little brothers and little sisters from from Hampton to find because at that point, Delta hadn't taken a line. I needed an undergraduate member. They found the one undergraduate Delta. I don't I don't remember her name, but shot you out. Ma and she got on the phone with me and we had our interview. And that was the only Delta I had for my participants because I reached out to my Hampton family and they was like, yeah. So my big sister says she needs help. I need you to call her and and that's what like. So I think it's very important that you stay in touch with your, you know, your undergrad, but even my family, my Spartan family kept in touch with them. They helped me. They pushed me through. And then just being not being afraid to talk about what you're doing. I think more often than not, we we want to be humble. We don't want to say what we're doing. But I think in speaking our truth, we help somebody else. And I think part of the time we don't want to do that because we don't want to, you know, it's braggadocious, but I know if I didn't speak, I wouldn't have met Taylor and vice versa. So let me let me ask you all this question and then round out because y'all have really dropped a lot of outstanding information about the graduate school selection process and the acclimation process. So there's a big push for folks to get degrees online. And obviously we've we've all taken our share of online degrees, online learning, would you guys still with all the experiences that you've had, PWIs and HBCUs are like, would you recommend to a student that's getting ready to walk in a couple of weeks? Hey, go to that campus, go to that new city, go to that new surrounding and find a new version of yourself. Or would you say, hey, it's you're not missing anything. Hey, just get that get that degree however you can. What would you what would you say to that person about discovering a new city through graduate school? Or would you just say, hey, get the degree however you can get it? So you mean the other mother and redefine framework in this situation. She brought it right back to her thesis, her capstone. Exactly, because use it says use it. This actually ties into a lot of what I talked about in my my capstone. So the one thing where I challenge back on that is that those two options of telling someone to go off and go live their best life and to make themselves new or, you know, just stay, do it online and, you know, just catch the degree. No one asked that student, what are your what are your value propositions and what are you looking for within yourself by seeking a graduate education? That's such a good point. But you know what? The young people are always like they want somebody to tell them. And so and that's cool. I find that they're there. So some some kids are so afraid of taking the next step or making the wrong decision that they are more comfortable with an advisor or mentor or big brother or sister saying, hey, you should do this. And then as the advisor and the mentor, you still use your role is to challenge them, push them. And I think it's with that understanding. I can always bear to go, but that doesn't mean it's right for you. And so I challenge just telling students to either do one or the other. So my response for if it let's say a grad undergrad asked me that actually a whole bunch of undergraduate students ask me that all the time, especially here at GW, because a lot of them are like, you know, I'm going to go straight off into grad school. I'm going to do this. But they talk to me about it. I always ask them, OK, well, tell me your reasons why you want to do it. And so from there, I understand where they're coming from. And that helps me figure out what I think might be good advice for them. And so I will never, ever tell a student to just up in root and move away. If they if they don't really even see themselves doing it. So I always ask a student, what is it that they see for themselves by getting a graduate school, like a graduate education? Some of them might have very clear cut goals. And some of them might be like, I don't know, somebody told me I just need to go and get, you know, get this degree and I need to do it. And I always say, you're not ready. Can you repeat that? Because somebody's trolling and listening to this. And I tell her she's not ready all the time and she doesn't believe it. And so I'm going to bring it. I'm going to bring it back to Greek life. Right. Right. Right. One of the one of the the things that I love about being a woman of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated and most importantly, being a woman from the gamma omega chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated is that my source, whenever folks ask them about, you know, like why they became members or, you know, for people who are interested in becoming and if someone tells them the first thing that they say, you know, I don't know, they told me that this is something good for me. They're like, you need to continue doing your research because here's the thing. Grad school is always going to be there. It's going to be there. What's not always going to be there is your mental, your your your your mental well-being, your social well-being, your academic well-being. And when you rush into something or even when you just go just because people are telling you to go and you aren't fully sure why you're doing it. And even when you're in this space, you struggle even more because you don't have the value for yourself on why you're there. Now, you truly believe that you just need to go get this degree because you need to move further in your career. And that's your reason and you stand on that cool. Then I'm going to help you figure out whether moving away to do that is good or if an online program is good. But when I have undergraduate, I'm just going to pop in driving. Some might just get run over. Somebody just pull off on the motorbike. I'm the only one that will see back in New York. Baltimore was on the dirt bikes. I don't know where y'all got that with me. I'm in Brooklyn. I'm on the seventh floor. So they can't just came in here. But go finish what you was saying. I'm just saying, I will. So for me, I'm never going to tell the student to go and move away 14 hours like I did because, again, my lived experience brought me here is different. So I always challenge students if they tell me, you know, I don't know if I want to go to grad school. I always tell them, all right, let's just talk about why you have even thought about it. And then from there, that helps me direct them into some places. I for me will never do online because I know I can't do online. I need to have human interaction. I need to be able to go to somebody's office hours. I need to be able to visually see instructions because I know that about myself. One of my be able to be be different, you know, and if they want to figure that out, I'll direct into there. But in my advisory, I work with students and how I talk to students and even people who are interested in undergrad, I mean, in graduate school, as I always ask them, what's their reason and why they want to go to grad school? What are their non-negotiables about grad school? Are they what are their soft negotiables? What are they willing to give up? And also, what are their goals from getting this graduate degree? This has been a fantastic. This has been one of my favorite episodes because this is so much insight about what to expect in graduate school. And we don't really talk to our students about this. I know when I was coming out of Morgan, I mean, it was kind of an expectation like a go to work or go to grad school. But nobody really gave you in depth insight about how to select the program, what to expect, where to go, how does it fit your career objectives, your personal objectives? Make sure you keep up with your mental health. None of that stuff. And so I'm really, really hopeful that folks listening to this on HBCDigits.com on Sirius Satellite 142 HPC radio that y'all really picked up on this. And if you didn't, please find a way to play it again, because this has been, at least to me, one of the more impactful episodes. Sisters, I really appreciate this, Tiffany, since you're listening and trolling, you're not ready. I'm not. As I've been telling you, you're not ready. See, I wanted to have just a just a tiny input. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I have never not been in school, which is why y'all had jokes earlier. Hush. So, yeah. So what. Taylor is saying is true. Your mentors, your academics, like get those together. Had I thought about it, because she took four years off. I've never not been not been in. Yeah, I've never taken off. So this will be the first time. As a matter of fact, my graduation cap. I got Jaheem James, shout out, Morgan grad to do my cap. And it reads, no, really, this is the last degree. Because I didn't know. I didn't know any better. And because I was in the mode, it was just like, let's let's run it. Let's run it. But thinking about it, had I thought about it, I probably would have slowed down, but I'm glad I got it done. And it's it's definitely it helped me to understand who I was and how I react under pressure. Because when somebody says you can't, you're not about to tell this, this hamtonian from Brooklyn. She can't now. Now I got it now. You double-dog did me. Now I got to do it. That's my favorite movie. So I definitely agree with with a lot of what Taylor was saying. But I also think because I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up, I honestly kept bumping into things that felt right and I went with it. And every time it felt right, I was like, yeah, let's roll. Let's go. I mean, I just saw Jad the other day. It didn't click for me. HBCU digest and the fact that I had been to his, what was it, the bowling part? The bowling joint back in the day. Yeah. Allie, what year was that? Like that was like if we started in 2010, that might have been 2011. Yeah. Right. I was just because I seen a black man doing something with HBCUs, I was like, oh, I'm going to support. It never clicked to me who you were and what was happening. I just saw somebody doing something that I thought was important, so I went to support that. So I feel like your heart will guide you. Yeah. I didn't necessarily know. Like you couldn't tell me I was going to start my own business. I barely graduated out of high school. I wasn't no super scholar, nothing like that. I did what I needed to do to get out. But then things started happening and things started clicking. And I'm thankful for those things, but I can't say that that would be everybody's journey. But what I will say in closing is that follow your heart. Your heart will guide you. Keep going. Don't stop. Keep going. Man, this is, I'm telling you, man, I hope a lot of students get something out of this and I hope you guys will share it and specifically say, hey, students, listen to this. Listen to this. If you have ideas and aspirations of going to graduate school, please listen to this. Because we can also reach out to me and Una as well. Absolutely. We definitely going to tag you guys on Twitter. No doubt. Tiffany's still trolling, not ready. I'm not trolling. First of all, let me say this. Let me say this. Where it is right there. Thank you, Taylor. Let me say this. I clearly produced these podcasts. I've been saying that I want Taylor and Una on for how long? That's true. I agree with that. Exactly. I'm in Charleston. No, I'm not in Charleston. I'm in Columbia, South Carolina working because you did X, Y, Z, Jerry. Don't play with me. I'm working. I'm busy. I literally just got back to my hotel. Did she say the bar? I was going to say, she just said a bar. She just said she's talking to somebody who pulled off on a dirt bike, telling them I'm working. Exactly. Poppin' Willys. Right. She was at a concert right before that. Right before we got in the air. I went to dinner because I have to eat. Thank you. Because they didn't have a calf? They didn't have a calf. No, I'm in the hotel. It's OK. You did a good job. I really appreciate this. Amazing episode. Thank you all so much and congratulations again on commencement. It's commencement season. Fantastic work. Can't wait to see what the future holds, especially for HBC Balante. And especially for the smothering theory. It's other mothering. The framework. That can manifest itself in other smothering. Coming to an HBCU near us. So thank you all so much. And thank you guys for listening. Again, check us out hbcudigest.com. This has been Digest at the Dark on hbcdigest.com and series 142 HBCU radio. Thanks for listening.