 Good afternoon everyone. It's a pleasure to welcome you all to our webinar. My name is Paola Rivetti. I'm an associate professor in Dublin City University here in Dublin, Ireland. And so we're really fortunate and we're really delighted to welcome you all to this double IEA event. Today we're very happy to be joined by Tahrase Perifar, who's a researcher in the Middle Eastern North African Division at Human Rights Watch, who's been very generous to take time out of our busy schedule to speak to us today on International Women's Day. Tahrase will speak to us for about 15, 20 minutes or so, and then we will go to our Q&A session with our audience. So you will be able to join the discussion using the Q&A function on Zoom. You should see that on your screen. And please feel free to send your question throughout the session as they occur to you. Feel free not to wait for the official beginning of the Q&A session. We will come to them once Tahrase has finished her presentation. But as I said, you're very welcome to let us know what questions you have as soon as you have them. So a reminder that today's presentation and Q&A are both on record. Feel free to join the discussion on Twitter using the handle at double IEA. We are also live streaming this afternoon's discussion. So a very warm welcome to all of you who are tuning in via YouTube. So I'd like now to briefly introduce our distinguished speaker today and then hand over to her. Sara Seperifar is a researcher in the Middle East and North Africa division where she investigates human rights abuses in Iran and Kuwait. Here to join in Human Rights Watch, she was a deputy director at the Human Rights in Iran unit at the City University of New York, where she worked on a project supporting the mandate of the United Nations special center on the situation of human rights in Iran. Tara graduated from Sharif University of Technology in Tehran, Iran, and holds an MA and LLM degrees in international law from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Staffed University. Tara, please, the floor is yours. Thank you so much and thank you so much for your kind introduction. I feel obliged to begin by wishing everyone a happy March 8. And all those who have been fighting for a more equal world before us and are still doing it. I'm very delighted to be here on this day and talking about something that has captured the attention of the world. In September 2022, Iranian people led by women and youth, embarked on a new protest movement that has captured the attention of the world. Here, many of you have seen the iconic images of women burning their headscarving protest gathering in street despite serious risks to their safety and even their, their life. These are the images that began after the death in custody of a 22 year old Kurdish Iranian woman who was arrested by Iran's abusive morality police quickly spread to more than 100 cities and universities across the country and and calls for fundamental support were echoed across the board with generations of protesters, either joining the street protests or echoing it online. These protests were and are significant for so many reasons I think, first and foremost, the durability and the widespread nature of them. This was the first time that we saw protest in Iran, and after a very long time that happened both in major cities as well as smaller towns in minority areas as well as the center of the country. The protest, the protest duration were largely extended by university campuses joining the protest movement and holding protests for for months. The protests are also largely either less, which raises questions about leadership and and and how they can transform, transform power, but also allows for conversations to happen. At a very intersectional level about what it means to be part of the protest movement that is bringing generations of of protesters together from different background with different lived experiences. I think it's fair to say that the leading slogan of the movement woman life freedom has brought generations of demands that have been echoed by different protest movements in Iran over the past 20, 20 years to connect the question of individual autonomy and choice of dress code to the broader political political repression and and the struggle for civil and political rights, as well as economic justice together. Using compulsory a job as as a symbol of the protest and makes a lot of sense in the Iranian context it's harder to find an issue that is more that's more of a visible manifestation of how the the authoritarian nature of governance in Iran tries to control every aspect of the individual's life and how individual choices and can inherently be seen as political. In that sense, well the demands are much broader and are there are calls for fundamental change. The fight against compulsory job laws and they're very abusive enforcement in Iran really symbolizes that the brother struggle. But of course we've not arrived here over time Iranian people did not decide to take to take them to such widespread fashion in September of 2022 people have been organizing fighting and resisting oppression for decades. Actually Iranian women had to break from political parties and organize their own, their own protest movement in the early, early days after the Iranian Revolution in 79 when they when they stage protest against against compulsory job laws at the time that even more progressive political parties did not see as a priority. Over time, women's movement in Iran have tried to change discriminatory laws and practices through various ways in 2005 they launched a campaign called one million signature campaign. The campaign was aimed at changing discriminatory laws through legislative route. And that was one of the first organized collective movements in the country to to have the conversation about what it means to to tackle discriminatory laws that were actually under pressure at the time at the time of the revolution as avenues for legislative change and an elective power diminished within the structure of the Islamic Republic of Iran, women's rights movement also turned to various ways to impact the women who have worked on issues such as street harassment raising awareness about about the discriminatory laws and going about changing them through through public campaigning and and towards public opinions they have worked with businesses and private sectors to protect the women. Just past two, three years. Iran also went through a wave of me to movement imagine in a country that consensual sexual relationship is criminalized. This conversation have has moved forward so much that women came forward with account of abuse and sexual harassment outside accepted legalized avenues and forced a conversation in obviously selected elements of the society and and had had this conversation echoed in in academic and activism and circles. So, in that sense, when we when protesters come together around an issue and umbrella of women, women's rights and their centrality to the protest movement is the result of generations of civil civil society and and local discrimination and interaction with public opinion that has finally connected these dots. And in a country like Iran that there are very serious restrictions for freedom of expression and assembly digital space has been an integral part of public space I think in many countries. It's very difficult to separate what is what is digital space what is what is the physical space we have and what is digital these these spaces have really merged. And it's true in the case of Iran as well that many people use it not just for expressing their opinion but also for connecting but also, but also mobilizing collective action. And to put that just in context, and Iran Iranians connectivity to Internet drastically increased about 10 years ago when the previous administration allowed internet providers to provide the 3G and 4G internet on mobile phones that really expanded Iranians access to, to Internet and bridge some of the generational gap that existed in access to computer literacy and generally stable at home internet and it penetrated in areas that are more marginalized and allowed people to connect, connect online. When we talk about Internet usage in Iran, I think main usage for for ordinary people is actually using social media and messaging applications or for many people being connected online is synonyms to being able to use messaging and communication connecting to social media, being connected to family and the broader community. And this allowed this created space for women to also be part of the part of the conversation that have always been academic intellectuals but this really expanded access to many ordinary women who are small business owners, they were able to create create social media pages for their own business we have we have currently a lot of lifestyle bloggers social media influencers people will talk about different aspects of the lives of different parts of the country. It allowed for local groups to form around parents for schools, villages, organizing for for their local needs. And it also connected people across the country. It was much easier to see what life looked like for another person in it in a province removed from the center. And I think all of those were elements that then were used in this protest movement to unite protesters and allow for the conversation to take place at a more intersectional level. In this protest movement wall. The actions were taken in the street and it was an attempt to create an alternative reality, a life without compulsory dress code for many people and social media and the way used social media was was crucial and critical in amplifying recording and and and and preserving that that image so that the changes in lifestyle that had already was already on the way in the Iranian society you could trace it through Instagram, for instance, which was which is the most popular social media application in Iran and research shows that over the past two years has actually become much more political and people are using a lot more political content on it was was being taken out in the street but also preserved preserved again on social media. It allowed for creation of art, music and and different initiatives in support and framing of the demands of the protest and and of course, echoing it back to not just Iranians but also international audience in so many ways. And just as an example, for instance, well, a lot of attention was was paid rightly on protesters who were putting themselves at the front line and risking their lives and and we all know that the Iranian government responded it is to this protest with brutal force killing hundreds of protesters and arresting thousands. A lot of ordinary people public figures were also lending their supports through demonstrating acts of resistance online and offline and connecting them. One of the very memorable photos of the early days of the protest movement that I remember was, and was a woman who had taken her headscarf off and have gone to a less affluent neighborhood in Tehran and was having breakfast next to a table of men, but her friend. There was no commentary nothing a photo of that was was published on social media and gone viral and it was basically one person's attempt to solidify this alternative reality and echo that message back to the society. And something that you hear very often from protesters and people we talk to an activist is that courage is contagious and social media was utilized to solidify that image and broadcast it and gain solidarity. And I think a lot of needless to say, as I said, a lot of the organizing and mobilization at the very local level is also happening in digital space, because it is a leader less movement, first and foremost, as a result of the very aggressive nature. And many of these networks are kept at a very local level and at a very grass level, and not necessarily visible to outsiders but, but you can trace how women have tried to have their perspective, interjected in the protest movement. As I mentioned earlier minority areas have been very important in durability of these protests to the state. The city of Zahedan in Sistan and Balochistan province which is one of the most marginalized areas of the country, it's been holding continuous protest every Friday, after the Friday prayer and after the Friday prayers, and with the leadership of the local and they have experienced one of the most brutal crackdowns against protesters. This is an area that women experience various levels of marginalization to begin with they're not very visible in the society their role is not accepted. What was fascinating for me was that, even though these protests were capturing a lot of attention and for the first time the center was taking note of various aspects of Baloochi minorities including their culture, men dancing because in the mind, minds of someone who lives in the Iran, Balochistan is about poverty and trafficking and bordering, bordering Afghanistan and Pakistan and having a lot of securitized issues, while they were witnessing a very different aspect of Baloochi life. The women who felt Baloochi women felt eliminated and silenced in the protest movement that was being led by a society that's more conservative. They created their own video of cutting their hair and taking their headscarf off with their own Baloochi clothes and put it online. They issued statements, they put out their own narrative and basically trying to influence the conversation at the very local level that you cannot, if you want to lead on this movement, it has to be as a part of the broader, rather, conversation of woman life freedom, you can't eliminate women if you are not seeing it. We women, Baloochi women are fighting various levels of marginalization and discrimination and we want to be part of this. So, these are not immediately visible if you're looking at a macro look, but as soon as you get slightly deeper, there's a lot more to digest about how the space is actually provided for conversations at the horizontal way. And I think one note that is probably on the minds of many is like how's the situation right now in Iran. While the protest, the street protests that are the most visible form of this protest movement have slowed down and the anger frustration, the calls for fundamental change are still very much there. And those everyday struggles and everyday acts of resistance of people that have predated the movement, intensified through the movement are still continuing. The government that initially responded with heavy lethal force and arrests of thousands moved ahead with bringing capital charges against dozens of protesters in extremely unfair trials carried out for executions, and then issued some amnesty and pardons to number of protesters is now trying to reinforce laws and control in various ways, including compulsory job laws that are being discussed on various levels through economic repression and issuing fines through depriving people of access to social benefits, but nevertheless women are still persisting and from what we understand many are still refusing to wear a job and that they don't believe in and they see it as an act of resistance and they see this being connected to the broader movement. The person I mentioned who shared a photo of herself having breakfast after her photo went while she was arrested and spent some time in prison was released on released from prison on bail. Just last week, she posted another photo of herself but another group of friends, doing the exact same thing, just kind of demonstrating that the content, the continuity and the persistent of how they see the fight. And I think I will just add a few more sentence about how the Iranian government is repressing the digital space because that's everything I said is not invisible to Iranian authorities as well. Over the past decade, they have really tried to build in an infrastructure that allows them to control internet in various ways. And initial government response to the issue of internet in Iran was, was attempting to restrict and block platforms, such as Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, some of the earlier versions of social media. But the solution to that was always finding ways to circumvent censorship. Over the past, I think decade they have become much more sophisticated, looking at models such as the one that the Chinese government is leading, trying to create the infrastructure that would allow them to control and disconnect internet when they see the use. So over the past three years alone, we have seen much more sophisticated internet shutdowns during the protest. And we've also seen a huge push for creating domestic alternatives to social media platforms and messaging applications that are controlled by government. So right now when the internet is, is shut down in Iran access to global internet is shut down and that doesn't allow us to monitor it doesn't allow us to talk to people banking system pizza delivery that version domestic version of Uber still work in Iran. And that's the vision that the authorities ultimately have for the ultimate control of internet by tampering with tampering with price of internet tampering with access dependent by profiling different people. So I think the, the battle over how unrestricted internet access for Iranians can be preserved is one of the very important important fights for Iranian civil society and those were trying to support them and empowered them in envisioning the change that they wish to see. And so I think in that sense the battle for equal rights for women and women's rights is inherently tied to battle to this battle for preserving Iran Iranians access to internet and those are some of the areas that that a lot of us are focused on trying to to solve the equation of how to keep how to keep power on the side of people. And I think with that, I will end my remark and, and just open it up for a conversation because I shared the lots. Thank you very much that it was really interesting. Thanks for for being so generous with comments and for, you know, sharing all that you've shared. So I'd like to remind our audience that they can submit their questions through the Q&A box. So as soon as you have questions, please just include your name and affiliation. And while we are waiting for, you know, for some questions I actually have many but perhaps, you know, a first question to start off with is about the limitation of online or digital activism. You mentioned some of the limitations when you were talking about the strategies that the regime and the state is implementing to control, you know, who's going online, who's doing what online, and so forth and so on. I was also, you know, I would be interested in knowing your opinion about another perhaps limitation. Which is the, you know, the diffusion of news and the diffusion of information that might, you know, might be regarded as some, you know, turning into some form of misinformation. And I'm thinking in particular to, you know, just something that has been happening right now in Iran with the poisoning of school girls. I'm sure we all have heard of and how, you know, there are so many conflicting reports on this that is really difficult to kind of, you know, to kind of understand what's going on and make an informed judgment about this. But I was also wondering what about VPNs. So I've heard a lot about them and people actually being able to kind of circumnavigate, you know, states restrictions of access to the internet so I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on how they work. Sure, I can, I can start with the first one and also answer the second one. So, I mean, I think we're at a stage and globally with social media that we're like okay we thought this was social media was for liberation we're also realizing that well but they might be some downside to it so globally we're trying to figure out and balance that the pluses and minuses of this expansive access to news and this horizontal level that that every citizen every person every account can participate in sharing of information circulating information and drawing conclusion. And generally the way we work in Iran because we are not underground. We don't have a presence underground the running governments not allow us to travel or be based there. We take a very conservative approach in documenting facts we review material that is available online including videos try to verify them geolocate them make sure that that date is correct and then we speak to and then says families of those who have experienced human rights violations to put the full picture together. And but then this landscape you have media you have social media influences you have this urge of wanting to report. And so you have various sources of information that makes documentation work more tricky. And another element of that I think is important to keep in mind is, and you also have state influence and various political agenda is influencing the Iranian intelligence I think being much more sophisticated in using this space. Initially, our understanding of internet let's say in 2009 protest movement was that okay you have the protesters online trying to use and trying to use internet to advance their cause and then you have government trying to restrict it. That has that landscape has completely changed. Their accounts affiliates with with government, both in official and in an official capacity and trying to be be present and lay out their narrative which is not necessarily the problem but over the past years I think they have also been a lot of misinformation and disinformation campaigns. There are a lot of research that points to the Iranian state back actors, or at least points the finger at them. And I think the goal behind it is not necessarily to prove one thing wrong or right is to cast doubt about the whole thing. It's, it's to cast doubt about the credibility of human rights groups documenting credibility of opposition media reporting on on Iran. So it's not necessarily that the misinformation is shared because they want to tarnish this specific person. What they want is for the people to ultimately conclude that this is too complicated. I know the troops and the way they've been much more sophisticated in in pushing targeted harassment and misinformation against entity groups and people who do this work which makes our work much more difficult. So the question that you raised about the very concerning reports of poisoning of hundreds of school girls across the country it's extremely concerning. There is authorities have come out suggesting a level of coordination and deliberate intent and which then only raises the alarm bill about who the perpetrators are doing something at such scale is extremely concerning. What is needed is impartial and transparent investigation and unfortunately Iranian government has a very this small track record of ever taking on these issues with the bigger and transparency that's needed. There are various waves of similar vigilante attacks on women or or violations that suggest involvement or some sort of support by those who might not be seen as descent. There are practices in the country that have never been investigated properly by Iranian government so we're in a situation that it is extremely important for prompt for prompt and transparent investigation to to share what they know, because this is happening and very harsh crackdown against protesters, including school children who took part in in particular took part in protest and schools were trying to control that for the first time we saw school children participating so it's causing a lot of anxiety along with children and their parents and in different areas we've heard that that it's already having an impact on on some girls not wanting to go to school because of the trauma. But nothing short of a transparent investigation can shed light and about the question of use of VPNs. VPNs have become a regular part of Iranian Iranians every day life, some of them described to you that we have like 12 different VPNs try to use them on a daily basis to see if we can connect to internet. So, VPNs allow allow for change of IP address and then basically find a detour for them to connect to to global internet. The problem when the global shutdown happens, you don't have any route outside Iran in order to connect to internet so VPNs work in regular situation when internet is restricted. But for situations of internet shutdown we need to think of more fundamental solutions you need to be able to connect to a computer outside the country through a computer inside the country you need to be connected to outside the country in order to so a lot of work and thought are being put into solving that problem but Iranian government is is advancing rapidly on being able to control the system. Thank you very much. So I'm gonna have two slash three questions. So perhaps I'm gonna, I'm gonna read the first two and then we proceed to the third one after you reply the first two. Helino Sullivan who's a researcher at the Institute. Thank you very much for your incredible insights today. As you outlined the younger generation have been using social media, but could you touch on how, or if the voices of older generations of Iranian women can be platformed on social media. Another question by Peter Gunning, former Irish ambassador and also a member of the Institute. Thank you for a very informative talk. As you said, the women's struggle has been joined to the wider mood of this, sorry, has been joined to the wider mood of this content in Iran. It's significant that establishment figures like Hotami and Mirosem Mirosem Musavi have spoken out on the protest and the need for at least some reforms. So, yes, I mean the new generation is grew up with social media they don't remember a world without smartphone. They know how to utilize it they're very good at creating rules and apps and using apps to create digital content. But because of restrictions on internet, a much larger group of people restrictions on free expression and also just restrictions on access to news and much broader group of people use social media to get their information. And I mean, a survey done domestically showed the shift from official news outlets, Iran State TV, domestic papers to social media following particularly following the 2018 and 2019 mass protests that were also brutally replaced. So you have the presence of other other generations but more as I think users than content creators. But they are also clearing insights online. It drives me crazy how much text, I need to read on Instagram, people share their articles, really long articles on Instagram and it's not a platform for text, but because it wasn't initially filtered and it has the capability of including political entertainment social fashion all of that in one in one setting. It has become the platform for having the conversation and so you have journalists you have older respect that human rights lawyers and advocates also sharing their articles in the comments on Instagram. And those are very insightful just not really easy to read. For the International Women's Day at Human Rights Watch we decided to interview a 51 year old woman in Tehran, who had joined the movement of not wearing a headscarving protest, and because and her insight of how she sees the struggle of the newer generation. And I've seen the tremendous amount of support among the older generation and and this duality of hope and pearl knowing that the capability of the government for repression but also hope for the new generation. And, and the people were in the streets have parents who remember early 2000 so each generation has kind of passed this struggle to the next and while the ones we see most vocal industry, maybe the youth, they are supported by their supported by their parents and grandparents who shares of the struggle on the question of domestic political forces. Every round of protest and this one was the most significant one you see more voices saying this situation is not sustainable for those who've been eliminated from power for those who've never been allowed to be part of power the situation is the same. But what you have is that over the past two decades, and the, the unelected authoritarian body of governance in Iran led by a truck home and he has continuously closed down the circle eliminating political forces in the previous elections, the presidential elections, they disqualified this spokesperson for the parliament and pave the path for election of current president everyone I see was accused of accused of participating in a very dark chapter of Iranian history and the execution of thousands of political prisoners in the 80s. So political forces have have been eliminated from the space for legislative reform, and yet they have everyone who's at the margin is still raising alarm bells. It is significant that the reformist voices are raising their concerns. What is not clear to me is that how much they enjoy popular support and Iranians have tried participation in the election to have multiple routes and they're in the face of, we've tried it all, this is not working. But from the way the authorities are responding to these statements you can you can tell that they still sense the potential power that forces from within can have and they're resisting it. I mean was saying that he has been under house arrest for the past and since 2011 for the past 13 years and, and as soon as his statement came out calling for a constitutional assembly and a referendum, and apparently the restrictions were tightened on his house arrest. So, from the reaction of authorities you see that they still see them as potential, but I think people are in the phase of trying the power of social movement to try to keep this very unequal power balance that has become more and more unequal over time. Thank you Tara. So we have two more questions. So the first one by growing your hands from the Department of Foreign Affairs, who asks, what can the outside digital world, including tech companies do to ensure voices from the digital activism movement in Iran are heard. And then we have another question, just one second from Karen Thornhill, actually two questions from Carol. And so the first one is, when Western governments support and arm repressive regimes in the region and dictatorship absolute monarchies and apartheid regimes. So does this undermine the credibility of the movement, and the second of the movement, I mean the inside movement of Iran I guess. And the second question is, what can be done to shake the perception that reporting in Iran is shaped by geopolitical motivated regime change operations, similar to those that have occurred. And the second question about the digital community. So, as I explained this move for restricting internet is shaped coordinated led by Iranian government. But broad sectoral sanctions and have also impacted the tech companies ability to provide certain kind of services to Iran and that was the after several years in the beginning of the process. And the US government issued a new general license that expanded the exemptions for tech companies to to to provide support to Iranians for communication technologies I can go into the details of what's the difference what it meant but essentially they expanded what constitute communication. So, many of the services cloud services platforms that communication can can be facilitated communication are now exempt under that. What we have been trying to do is to encourage and tech companies to to take advantage of that to the maximum level to do to make available the platforms that are essential for Iranians, but also finding ways to include Iran and Iranian in their general programming, which has a lot of restrictions because you can't have ads, you can't receive ads from Iran you can't receive money from Iran from the sanction which complicates a whole set of services that are typically provided through tech companies, but there's a lot that could be done, and to support the digital space in Iran from outside the country many of them are very technical, but it's important to prioritize and work collaboratively with activists in that space that are connected to people inside the country and and tech companies have more resources and more platform and more expertise to bypass some of these technical issues then let's say group of internet freedom experts at an NGO they're trying to do that so that partnership is very crucial and and and if there is interest that I'm definitely happy to get into it offline with anyone who's working on on that nature section. Usually providing arms to repressive states in the region geopolitics. I'm not going to say they don't exist because they're there and we're, we're, if I was speaking about the role that the West is playing in fueling the war in Yemen. I think most of it would be like the arms that are going in. So, the issue is, we are dealing with a region that is not being treated equally when it comes to human rights. Mostly Western governments have their double standards, have their in raising similar, not same similar patterns of human rights violations in various countries. What might result in a strong statement in Iran requires advocacy, much stronger advocacy to even have any, any impact in Egypt, like for governments raised in Egypt or Saudi Arabia or others, I don't want to dismiss that. But the way we work is that instead of saying because that exists it's a race to the bottom therefore we're going to discount. What's happening is trying to overcome that by applying the same standard across the board beyond beyond these borders, and also, I think what's important is to work on connecting Iranian civil society movement to the region. And globally, Iranian civil society is extremely isolated because of the repression and because of the geopolitical factors that often eliminates them from conversations that are happening at the regional level and happening globally. And in reality, I think there is a lot that could be exchanged with the region with Latin America with other countries are going other other movements are going through this. So, for me, in order to overcome the barriers of reporting and geo politicized narratives in Iran is try to break the isolation of those who are working on Iran, giving them access to information and peer support, extremely difficult. I'm not saying it's possible easily because it will be there will be the target of government crackdown, but that's how I envision. Otherwise, us sitting abroad are inherently acting as gatekeepers. I am the one explaining what's happening in Iran instead of someone who's been leading the process in Iran. That's reality. It's a burden on our shoulder but I think trying to break the barriers and making more connected will hopefully show the kind of opinion and the nuances of debate that can be discounted when it's when the geopolitical lens is immediately enforced on understanding Iran. Thank you Tara, if I may just add, you know, something in this I think there's a lot going on in Iran there's a lot of debates you know people are do. I mean, are debating what's the, you know, the head forward and, you know, the best way to, you know, to keep things going on how to deal with external pressure whether that's coming from Russia whether that's coming from the US and I think, you know, this also is tightly connected to what is happening in the diaspora which is, you know, a different conversation but has a lot to do, you know, at the same time has a lot of impact and of course has a lot to do with what people in Iran are discussing. I think this is this is extremely important and also perhaps keeping the focus and, you know, even just noticing that there's a, you know, there's a debate going on in Iran is a good way to, I think, put in perspective the existing and important, but still, you know, the I'm sorry, the influence and the presence of, you know, this geopolitical contrasting interests which are important are, you know, our presence they do have an impact but there's a lot also going on and apart from, you know, from from this geopolitical interesting, you know, interest and I mean, inter foreign interferences so I think there's, I mean, this, this is important but we often, we often, you know, run, have, I mean run the risk of, you know, placing our focus on what's going on outside and forgetting that there's a lot going on inside and perhaps that's, I mean that's more important. As you pointed out, Iranians are engaging with that question and are debating it. Just few weeks ago, there was a statement by 20 unions and feminist groups inside the country, pointing out a set of 12 demands that also included questions on Iran's international relations, nuclear appropriation, economic justice access to free education and healthcare as well as civil and political rights and minority rights so the debate is happening. And as you said, it being complicated by geopolitical factor should not be the reason that we don't, we won't try harder to see the polarity and the diversity and the nuances of it. And so in that sense, having this social media platforms allows for more access and more conversation, but also parallel conversations are happening so you need to, you need to actually pay attention to various aspects of the debate. Yeah, definitely. And just today there was another, another statement released by, you know, self-called coalition of women. So it's on Zamane website. Anyway, so we have a few more questions. So I'd like to go through them. I know we only have nine minutes, but I think it's important. So Kelino Sullivan from the Institute asks, what can those outside of Iran, how sorry, can those outside of Iran support this activism online in a meaningful way and keep the momentum going. We have a question by Seabash Sharif, who's a researcher at Tehran University, and he asked, ask you, Tara, please, to comment on the role of foreign interference in contributing to the ongoing issues in Iran so we kind of go back to this question. And then we have one final question by Carol. Have Western sanctions helped or hindered the freedom movement in Iran? Really easy ones, very straightforward. So how can they help? I think we started answering that question by suggesting the need to engage with the nuance of the debate that is coming from inside the country. So recognizing and acknowledging the complexity of being willing to commit to understanding and echoing voices is very, very important. I see a lot of, not in this movement actually, I think we've enjoyed a lot of support, but we sometimes see some of the progressive voices not wanting to enter the debate that in support of Iranian people because it gets complicated, it's not as straightforward. Putting that first commitment to engaging and understanding is very important and with every action that is being taken, either at the policy level or at the citizen level, what we're trying to, I think the way I look at the equation is that you have this very unequal power balance between Iranian people and a repressive government so what you want to do is to support and empower people. And when deciding about policy intervention, which will then get to the question, the two other question, if the intervention is putting enormous amount of harm on the power of people, you're defeating the purpose even if you were claiming that this is in support of people. Understanding how you frame the equation and how you frame this idea of standing by Iranian people and to what extent you're willing to commit to the complexity of it for me is key. But first, but another thing that is simple, yet requires a lot of commitment is to committing to echoing their voice, the voices are coming from inside and following their stories and humanizing their struggle. We have this moments of eruptions that get the attention of international media, a lot of international forces join on TikTok, on platforms and universities and then the next big news happens, the news cycle moves on, the struggle remains. And so, supporting people, picking one person, someone who's been killed, someone who's in prison, someone who's a labor activist, someone whom you can connect to and trying to follow their story. That is not just those epi-series of the person X is arrested, actually person X is now released from prison, but cannot get a job, because that's how various elements of repression work to contain dissent. Humanizing the struggle, humanizing the generations of struggle, people who are supporting the movement have been fighting for decades, like people who have joined this movement are the ones who are fighting for truth and justice for the victims of this execution, for the chain assassination of dissidents in late 90s. So people stay and keep coming back to it, if we can bring out these dimensions, I think it manifests the importance and the enormous nature of the struggle. And for interference, I have no doubt that political forces have their own agenda inside and outside the country, and many of the forces outside forces that have their agenda, their agenda is not necessarily to support peaceful transition to a free and secular country that can become a competitor in so many levels and a lot can get lost in every country and state and political group have their own agenda. And they do try to echo that in their messaging. But the core of the problems, the root causes, the reasons people are coming to the street is local, is their lived experience. It is, it is the real everyday reality of having to go out and deal with the morality to this. It's the reality of the economic situation deteriorating as it sanctions as a government policy are there both. The answer is both. It's not an either or government enacts policies in response to sanction that further enriches rights. The government has serious corruption and mismanagement issues. So what we're dealing with what the person who is sitting in Iran is receiving is the accumulative impact of these things, but the causes the issues that the problems with government on democratic governance in Iran are local and are real. So, until those are resolved, and the root causes remained and create opportunities for all sorts of actors to take advantage of them. And the question of sanctions, are they helping or harming I think is a very simple. I know we're interested in categorizing it's like this group or that group, but the reality is that the question is is complicated requires requires a closer look. And the debates that are reductionist in wanting to find, put the blame either on outside or inside overlooks that the accumulative nature of the problem that Iranians are dealing with. And what we can, what I can say from the research that I have done on access to medication as well as medical education is that in so many ways, and broad sectoral sanctions and have contributed to this for procurement of medicine, material for education, becoming much more restrictive and difficult and has created a more on transparent economy that is being even more abusive against people on so many ways. And the ability of Iranians in the society to organize and mobilize is also impacted by their economic struggle we saw a lot of calls for general strikes in the beginning of the protest no one answers the question was like how a labor union that is under crack down by the government can go on a strike if people cannot put bread on their and also there that the nature of restrictions on approaching the question of Iran, not having transparent financial channel really limits abilities for economic for for academic exchanges cultural interactions. It, and contributes to isolation of civil society and issue that I, I have raised earlier. And so, if I may instead of saying help or help or her it's, it definitely compounds the impact and the restrictions and I think been looking at the question as a matter of policy intervention, it is essential for state to look into this as an integral part of the assessment that they need to do. When rolling out this measures that have actually gone for decades at this point. Thank you so much for this extremely interesting seminar webinar, actually, and thanks for being so generous in, you know, sharing your wisdom and your insights into the current situation in Iran but, you know, also into into your own the research that you yourself have been, you know, have been carrying out. And so I'd like to, you know, give you an applause for what to share with us. And I think it's, I think we will come to to a close of to an end of our session, it's for PM, and thanks everyone for for being with us and for following us and until the next time. Thank you so much.