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And we wanted to talk about some of that. And I know a few years ago I started seeing a lot of big breeders start moving to Columbia. That's when I first noticed it was about two or three years ago. There was almost a mass exodus of some of the breeders going down to Columbia. And a lot of people are trying to import American strains down to Columbia. I know Breeder Steve was one of them down there too. Charlie Garcia, those guys went down to Columbia. Mustafa told me about Charlie. In fact Charlie wrote me too because he was so sad with all the things that had happened at Ace that he decided to just go somewhere new and being Spanish he would fit down there so well. Oh yeah I bet he's digging it in Columbia. And I bet they're digging him probably treating him like a dignitary you know really. Yeah like royalty I would assume he's been around forever. He's done a lot you know and that would be a huge fit down there. And he knows a lot of people so that when it comes time to market you know he knows how to do that. Is Columbia, I don't really understand the Columbia market as much but is Columbia as controlled by cartels as say Mexico is currently? I don't believe so. I think the government has stepped in by legalizing and they monitor everything. They I'm sure there's money being passed around to see who gets what licenses because that one article said that there's only, there was how many? I said that there's only like 16 or 6 that were allowed to produce seeds. Yeah but there was a lot of licenses for growers 60 or 70 so only 10% roughly were allowed to produce seeds. So they'll be producing their own down there and with someone like Charlie or Breeder Steve they'll get up the right genetics design you know they'll. Yeah and I'm sure that Charlie's searching in the back jungles and corners to find as close to land races as he can. Oh I'm sure I mean he'd be one of those ideal people for Columbia I think because he understands different types of not just strains but types of strains how they grow in certain provinces and certain elevation. So I think he'd be excellent for that like like finding a strain and he understands breeding he understands working a line acclimating it so yeah he's a great person to be down there doing it. I'm kind of shocked that there's so few people allowed to produce seeds I don't know that the US market has a cap on the number of seed producers licenses and stuff. I think it's kind of late if there is going to be. Yeah there's tens of thousands. Yeah there's so much so could they be so brilliant that they're realizing that the future for their seeds would be if they're certain lines like Chiba or Santa Marta gold and they can regulate and make sure that the six readers of seeds really have that. So that when they sell them it could be Thailand. Thailand's done something similar kind of as I understand it's something similar with their heritage strains like the silk squirrel tail the tiger tail snake teeth. There's a few other kinds from Thailand they consider like heritage strains. However they put a lady in charge of it named I don't want to say a lady in charge of all this stuff and it seems that she doesn't even understand that most of the ties that were sold during the that era were Laotians. So she she's putting out like this big thing where like almost reparations that American farmers owe Thai people money for growing Thai strains and using them over the years when in fact they're probably Laotian strains. So her bringing this forward will kind of probably point out that most Thai strains are Laotians and that probably the ties owe reparations to Laotians if she keeps pushing it that direction. Because she just doesn't understand the culture she doesn't understand the history of the strains but she's in charge of it. And I think it's it's disappointing because I feel like that happens a lot in corporate Canada America obviously in Thailand is that you have corporate money coming in and corporate money choosing who is to head the spearhead these these campaigns. And most of the time the people with the money and incorporations do not have access to the people who have the knowledge or have been keeping this clandestine stuff you know keeping track of it the archivist they just don't have access to these people or even know. So they wait to be approached by these people who tell them I am that person. And it almost I almost feel like they do. They have no way to check you checks and balances on if this person is full of it or not. And it's almost like to me it feels random on who they choose like you're going to be the lady. You know like you're going to be the guy to represent it. And I know a lot of Thai people are people in Thailand right now that are super interested in land races and preservation are a little upset about that because I mean now she's representing certain strains as they are. Heritage strains that may not even be they could be you know Dutch hybrids of stuff and they will always be pushed as their heritage straight now because she said so. Yeah it's it's fascinating the politics that go behind all this stuff because you never really realize how much it's going to affect potential future written down history. So I found the article from April 12 of 2019. So we're talking two years ago and it says there's 126 companies in Columbia at that time. That's two years ago but only 16 for seeds. Wow. Yeah. 126 have been cleared to grow and have huge but only 16 of those 126 were qualified to produce seeds says these companies are allowed to register genetics in batches of 10 at a time and the phytosanitary tests will mandate them to cultivate a test batch engages properties before can go to the market or register the genetics. Several well known land race strains will be featured. So they are going to try to do that that heritage strain type thing that's kind of cool. Yeah Santa Marta go Chiba black. Hopefully they choose someone like Charlie the spearhead that that would be cool someone that actually knows their their business or God must have fun or someone cool you know. I know he's not here but it would be nice to consult. I'm pretty sure they'll need testers. Yeah that's for sure. Yeah. So what do we know about the what do we know about the political climate in in Columbia as far as so we talked about a little bit about cartels in Mexico. How does this how do you think this interplays with moving the product from Columbia through Mexico because it's going to have to pass through Mexico to get to the US unless it's done on airplanes right. Yeah I guess I guess I don't know why I would assume that they can't do it on airplanes if it's legal though. I'm still in like that outlaw mindset like we got smuggled. 747 packed. Yeah. Yes. Like the way UPS will pack certain carrier planes you know they own them and use them but that size. Sure. And then they'll be they'll be perfectly you know protected you know they'll keep them. Oh I'm sure as hell they may back seal them. I don't think the glass bottle and like some of the boutique companies in northern California but they'll definitely they've learned their life. Lessons over decades. And they may have some that they ferment on purpose and help bring about changes in the smoke qualities. It'll it's I don't know when it will be but once we're federally legal I bet they'll have their lobbyists already waiting and already had their plans made. They may even right now and when it happens they'll rush in and they'll be all these companies in America fighting saying we need to have tariffs we need to have tariffs and stop. And so it'll be interesting. Washington DC battle. You know it almost I mean it kind of would be common sense that a lot of these companies because we know a few years ago that a lot of people moved down there and started doing this that they are. In these what were once cartels maybe or maybe what is backed by clandestine money in Columbia and and and Mexico. They have way more money than a lot of the corporations and it is what I've been trying to tell people like a lot of the people that are in the U.S. right now. A lot of the major companies. Let's for example shmungle schmoise something like that level of of bigness and they may not have enough money at all to be able to compete with the international market. I mean that's just a fact. I mean we're not talking you know the hundreds of million of millions of dollars that we have in America to invest in some of these cannabis companies you know we're talking like billions and trillions of dollars being invested. And a lot of these people look at these companies that were started by actual growers some it's some cases getting investments from you know doctors lawyers chiropractors that money is not going to hold any weight when these guys come in. It's they're going to get crushed because there's no way. Just by simple economics I mean the way it works is you know if someone has X amount of space and it's 10 times the space that you have and they can sell it for pennies on the dollar compared to what you can afford to sell it at. And they can afford to take a loss for 10 years. There's no way to compete. That's just how all capitalist markets work. In a new in a new market where I guess you could say this is not a new commodity but it's going to be considered a commodity in a broader sense for the for the world term that people can invest in. It's going to be a commodity like pork bellies or anything like that. And when those come into play it dumps out any mom and pop chance of being able to never compete again. If I was in charge of a big cannabis operation in the United States. I definitely have my representatives in Colombia Thailand in tropical areas right now which I wouldn't doubt. If Spain has such a large presence down there from the people like Charlie that are the growers then there's they have friends who own stores and companies in their countries. There's plenty of millionaires and there's quite a few billionaires these days. Yeah. Why not you know it makes more sense in South America I guess or Mexico or maybe even Thailand for the cartels that are doing other things illegally cane and opium. And then they make billions of dollars and now they can put it into something legal. It's like washing their money. It's like beautiful and money to retirement. So how do you think Mexico is going to interplay in this whole transition. You know I mean Mexico is a bit behind Colombia as far as how people are set up there. The politics are going to be much different. I don't know how much different I don't know the level of political corruption in Colombia. But I'd imagine it somewhere in between Mexico and the U.S. as far as corruption in politics. So I just wonder with with the powers and the money that the cartels have in Mexico how they will how they will be prepared to enter the market. Because with all that land in Mexico and as cheap as land is in Mexico. I mean it seems like that and the climate are the determinant factors on where a person can grow cannabis essentially on where these farms will start popping up around the world. Gustavo Petro is a former guerrilla fighter and he is now the president in Colombia. And that makes a big difference because he's going to he has a much different view much more down the earth. He's not like the high end only money person. Yeah. It says he is an economist politician but he was a former guerrilla fighter and he's been in president since 2022. Yeah. Mexico has too much corruption and murder. Yeah. Colombia can be the kidnapped capital of the world but Mexico is far and above it now because I don't know it's just so split into so many factions. When you had only four big godfathers and godmothers in Colombia or five. It was very organized. But Mexico if you look at all the cartels. Yeah. The maps that show like 25 different ones and they're they're trying to combine and then others are fighting the others. I think Mexico will lag far behind. However it's so close to the United States that will have a spillover beneficial effect for them just like think automobiles. Everything was Ford and Chevy and then suddenly Toyota and all these other countries. I mean German. Okay Volkswagen was always here too and BMW I guess but suddenly when imports started flooding to the United States they came in with some great quality. And stole away a lot of the market. And now they've been playing catch up for years Ford and Chevy. Yeah. With electrifying it's going to be interesting because Tesla kind of broke the ground but now there's companies in China that make electric cars that are seven thousand dollars. Yeah. It's gonna be hard to be with that. Even if we tariff fit 100 percent it could 14,000 for an electric car just to use in your neighborhood and around shopping and stuff. Yeah. Those will sell like crazy. Oh yeah. Yeah. Affordable affordable electric. Yeah that'd be insane. I mean you know what's funny is you know I collect a lot of different things that I've talked about and in the over the years I've watched the guitar market specifically. And the knockoffs that have come and how fast the turnaround time is on guitar knockoffs now is literally it went from probably five or six years from a model being released to where you were able to buy that model bootleg in China pretty easily. You know for 300 to $400 as opposed to 10,000 or 15,000. Really? That much? Oh yeah that much of a difference because they're doing like they're doing like custom shop like like artist edition versions like perfect replicas that you can get and sell for 500 bucks because they're doing it in mass but they're doing it so good. And now they're down to they're down to about two months. Two months after each line is released per guitar maker. If it's a high selling line, they will have it knocked off in two months now as opposed to six years. There's no turnaround time whatsoever. It's crazy. And I imagine it's like that with a lot of stuff. China is able to reproduce and produce on such a level and on such an affordable level that we can even begin to understand over here. Six cents a gram production price they're predicting in Colombia. I think we're going to see a replay in the weed market. Mexico could certainly compete in their more tropical areas like Oaxaca and Guerrero because people live in the mountains and they grow their own beans and it's a much simpler life like much of Colombia. Colombia has some big cities though and a port on the Caribbean and a port on the Atlantic. So they can ship right from the Atlantic side right up to LA or San Diego or they can ship right to Miami from, you know, Buena Ventura. I think it is the one that's by Santa Marta. And it, you know, they could pick up a little Jamaican along the way, you know. Do you ever see a country like China entering the cannabis market based on culture and religious aspects? Not for a while. I don't know. Thailand and look at all of Southeast Asia, you know, Kalimantan and, you know, the guys on the forums from Australia, certain people, you know, Wally Duck and bucket bong and a few bunch of others. They've gotten strains from Sulawesi, Kalimantan, and these are land races that aren't polluted yet. There aren't any Dutch citizens, well hippies. It's just more difficult of a society to just go over there. I know Rob Clark's been there and so has Shanty Baba because they're both big fishermen and they love to fish from the shore type. And Rob holds some records in New Zealand, the annual things there that they have. He has world records. I have photos, I don't have his permission to pop them up. To share, yeah. If he'd let me, there's some amazing stuff he's sent me of him barely holding a 50 kilogram fish in his arms. Oh my God. Looks like Papa Hemingway. He's got white hair now and white. He's in his rubber clothes because he's on the beach, you know, pulling these in and he, he loves it. That's his thing. And apparently Shanty Baba and he were thinking of maybe even getting a little tiny resort in former Borneo, Kalimantan. Yeah. Who knows. Wow. I love the Borneo. Yeah, right. We're to some place where the people running it were longtime friends. That'd be really cool. Yeah. I mean, longtime friends and seed nerds, like strain nerds that you just sit there and nerd. I mean, yeah, that'd be amazing. Absolutely. I wonder if there'll ever be a time that Americans can go to Columbia and not get kidnapped or bothered because from, you know, someone from Spain speaking perfect Castilian Spanish, you know, they're going to fit right in. But yeah, Americans are still viewed. I believe in many of the countries like South of us. Everyone's going to, someone's going to be willing to pay for you. Exactly. Maybe it's only 10 grand and not 10 million. Like if you were really special, but I don't know. Maybe it's only 400, you know, but that's that's months of someone's livelihood there and that's enough for them. You know what I mean? Yeah. If I could get a special, you know, endorsement says do not kidnap. You know, I was watching something the other day on it was a guy that went to Pakistan and he was going there to go up through the Condues Valley. Basically he was going from like the Khyber Pass over the Condues Valley and up through Pakistan up through Nepal. And everyone that he met along the way were just the most kind, you know, sweet people, the cultures. They're absolutely insanely sweet. And like most of them he'd be saying like, have you ever seen Taliban out here? They're like, I've never seen a Taliban. This is Pakistan. We don't have Taliban, maybe down in Peshawar, you know, like in the big city, but they're like, they've never been up here. Like so they they one thing that they were impressing in this video the whole time the Pakistan people were impressing like Americans are very welcome here. We love Americans. We love people from other cultures. And in a lot of these places he was going were Greek Greek descendants from when Alexander the Great passed through that past trail area. The Hunza Valley. Yeah, the Hunza Valley. Yeah, or the Hunza people. Yeah. And and that's where this guy was staying with a lot was with the Hunza people and they just seem so nice and friendly, just wonderful, wonderful culture. I have a little booklet I got in a health food store in the early 70s on the whole Hunza story and their diet, they eat a lot of apricots which has a lot of benefits and they're they don't eat a lot of meat. If they do, it's probably goat meat. Yeah. They lots of yak. Yeah. Yeah. And Hunza Valley until maybe 10 years ago was very difficult to get to you had to trek for pays to get there. Yeah. Now I know there is a road that leads in there. However, the people are probably still just as friendly. They called it like the Garden of Eden. Like it was a paradise hidden. And these people lived in perfect harmony and whatever. They have different districts, different little regional voting areas. Well, not even voting, like people in charge that were voted in by their their tribe, because they were such good people. So it was good. Good. Yeah, it I know that the dude who went there, it was mostly because of the whole Shangri-La story. Figure out like where where this was kind of considered or where just going in that area. And yeah, if I remember correctly, it was either the Hunza people or somewhere close to there where they were saying they're not Muslim. So they are looked at as secondhand citizens, not really quite. They're not given proper representation in parliament in Pakistan and stuff like that because they're not a Muslim culture. And yeah, I thought that was absolutely fascinating that this little tiny bastion of like free people exist in their own little area in Pakistan. And they're just so sweet. They seem sweet, you know, I've never been there, but they seem sweet. When I was thinking about the Kogi people who were all white and they live in the Santa Martin Mountains. There's a beautiful movie that came out maybe 20 years ago. And it's called Message to Little Brother, I think was the name of it. I researched this the other day again. And it's about an hour and a half long documentary. And you can't go into the Kogi highest villages. They they haven't blocked on these paths up into the Andes. You can get that far, but they won't let you be on that. And they have the right to because it's their land and they consider everyone else in the world like us little brothers. And they were this was an environmental movie showing how they have noticed the snow is no longer on top of Santa Marta. It's the weather is changing. And it's because of little brother not knowing what he's doing and talking with nature. And right next door is Venezuela. And there's parts of Venezuela and then going to Guyana that are almost unexplored. And then one of that's the upper end of the Amazon, which is also very little unexplored. And fortunately, there's people helping the tribes there maintain their lands and hold back the people who chopped down the rainforest to make the palm oil plantations. Really. It's amazing. We live in interesting times. That's for sure. I, I look forward to seeing Santa Marta gold coming in original. It would be so cool. Or what how can some strength of what how can that no one knew existed because the people there were guarding it. Yeah. Became legal and they were no longer criminals. They had friends who were in the city who knew how to bring it. Yeah, it'll happen. I still think that there's a good shop that we have these Colombian golds and what Hawkins even in the US seed collections. I'm sure, you know, even with Rob Clark and others like that, you know, Watson. I'm sure they have these old stuff. I mean, Watson said a million times that he has everything that he's ever touched and see stored frozen forever. So, you know, I hope that they do bring these back out and grow them at point of origin type places, you know, like grow them, go take it back to Columbia, grow to point of origin, bring some of this natural stuff back that that has been wiped out. That'd be cool. 1977 Guerrero seed that a friend found in his desk. It's not viable. And down the road with the advances in PCR and DNA and RNA. It's very possible that they'll be able to deconstruct it just by breaking the seed and taking the remnants of whatever's in there and the genetic code. Yeah. I don't know if this is good. I think it's very possible. It's GMO, you know, so it's very, very, very possible. I mean, it's not easy. Like it shouldn't imply that it's easy, but it's definitely very possible to take something that has its genetic code and if they understand the genetic code and how to reinsert it. It'll take years to understand the DNA map of cannabis and what those where and why, but it's at some point they should be able to have a, would you call that like a blank canvas type seed that they can inject this code into. I definitely think that's in our very near future and something like that will be absolutely so important to have tissue culture. Yeah. It's at a cutting edge right now and the company that's really the most advances in Canada, and they recently opened in the United States. I contacted them, maybe a year or two years ago, called them in Canada, and they said, at this point, having a single seed like that, it isn't feasible, but it's on its way. And they feel very confident that they will be able to take a seed like you said. And somehow take what's left in it and injected into tissue culture and then grow it again, and then cross it and make new seeds of the exact same strain. So, hmm. I think it's not too far out. No, I don't think so at all. Kerry Mullis is the cool guy. He was a surfer to who invented PCR basically, and hell really. And he died just a few years ago. He wrote a really cool book that I have. And he did a lot of acid when he was in college, and he more or less saw the RNA. He looks, or whatever, on acid. And that's what allowed him to then make the final steps and make PCR real. And he worked for a company at the time. So they got the, got the patent for it. He got the Nobel Prize of Chemistry that year, by the way. And his friend said, you should just quit your job and then do it on the outside. So maybe it would be worth, this is 20 years ago when you wrote this book, I believe, you said would have been worth about a quarter billion dollars. Oh, I'm sure. And today be worth probably $20 billion, you know, because PCR is in everything. Everything. Yeah, that's how it goes. When you work for a company, they own you and they own your, they own your soul. All these books are nonfiction, almost every single one. I have probably 4050 fiction books, but yeah. And now with the internet, I can skip most of these books. However, there's still my friends. Right. I can't let go of this stuff like every move that I do is insane, mostly because of my book collection. It's insane. It's heavy. There's so many boxes of books, but, and I know these are online, but like at the same time, there's a lot that aren't, you know, and there's the ones that have been trying to scan in and get out there for people because I really have this, this further belief that like in order for us all to progress and get at the level to where I wish people were when it comes to breeding and cannabis breeding and taking it seriously, we all have to be have access to the same information to be on the same playing field to have, you know, expectations of people to put in the work and to know what's what. So if I'm not making that available and I have the resources to then I'm part of the problem. That's the way I look at it's weird, but yeah. So I'm determined to get it all scanned. I had 10 feet of National Geographics at one point because my grandfather gave me a subscription when I was nine years old. For the next 15 years, and then when he died, a friend of mine picked up where he left off and kept sending them to me. But once it went digital, and I realized you can search every copy. Yeah, for what I need in my life. I gave mine to the boys girls clubs, and it was 600 pounds. I was so happy to give them away because they would use them to cut out photos and yeah, yeah, watches or do whatever they're doing in their class. And that was fine. I didn't. But now in high times that's a different story. Give those to the boys and girls club. Definitely going to hold on to those. Yeah, you need to those are special. Share them with people like you and other friends. Yeah. Since high times is put the whole archive online, like I have several and but I still find myself picking them up every time that I see them for whatever and I'm like man I know I can just go access it online but there's something about having a hard copy from the 70s being able to smell it and flip the pages and there's something about that that I'll never be able to walk away from smell of books, the feel of books. Also, I underlined, I'm not keeping a book so that it'll be valuable later unless it's one of the ones I collected as first editions. So I index my books and I open the front page, and it's got my index. This is just a small one where I, you know, I wrote that many like page 91 is about shin splints page. It's about ligaments and yeah. It's just, that's what the beauty of books. You know, I never. I've never really taken notes in books, but I had a, or notes on books period I always memorized what I could. And I when I was doing a lot of UFO research I ran into a guy that just blew my mind because every single book, he had a long list of everything he had ever read about it. And he'd be like have you read this book now here's my notes and I'd be able to read real fast and I was like this is so useful. If I would have done this for every book that I've ever read I could be helping a lot of people like cook real fast. Yeah. So now I'm making a habit to do stuff like that to make notes to, you know, Well, I think it's super important. This is probably the best book on. It's called the rocks begin to speak. And it's by LaVanne Martin and about petroglyphs. Yes. And, but this guy. He was raised on his background. He's part Native American, and he was raised. This is how I index my books. Oh, wow. You know, all, all the pages that have things word order clarity, you know, like, yeah. A lot of archaeologists thinks he's full of it. He's no longer alive. However, he was the first to start. Like he said, rocks, broke the silence. And I've used his techniques personally in even a magi can and there's lots of petroglyphs. And there's one that's very simple that's just a circle with a dot in the middle of it. And it means something there. And you see this on the rock and he said he walked around the boulder and on the backside there was a spring. Wow. They had anyone in it didn't matter what language you spoke. They all spoke sign language or rock writing language. And it's, it's incredible. I, and if you go to other countries like Central America, South America, Asia, there's petroglyphs or pet, you know, hieroglyphs, all the world. It's just wonderful to me. I think it's amazing stuff like that to even be found in the United States because the United States like when we think about our history we think of it traditionally being you know 600 500 years old from the European conquest but realistically, like, like you said magic, there is a beautiful I've never seen petroglyphs in person but I can imagine the energy, the vibrations around stuff like that has got to be magical. One of my favorites that I've found. I think I sent you link to the NFTs I made because I was searching when NFTs first came out a few years ago was a big deal. I searched open sea and rareable and all these sites, and no one had done anything with with weed. Yeah, I found one finally one photo of a, of a flower. Some guy had posted on open sea, but yeah, all kinds of stuff and wove them together. And one of my favorite most rare petroglyphs I've ever found with my first grow partner Doug, the second actually showed. Men on horseback. And it was early congeased to doors because they have helmets. And it's, it's, it's a fairly rare thing to see there are a few in northern Arizona and Utah as well. But this is not in magic. Canyon proper but five miles away on top of a mesa drops off into another canyon. My friend and I were hiking over to look over the edge and see these other canyons we were considering other growth spots. And we found this. And it's, it's pretty stunning to see a horse shape and a guy on it, and he's got a helmet. And this dates back to the first conquistadors in the sixth time documenting seeing these guys come through, or like, and trying to figure out what they were seeing in the 1500s and 16s, because they conquistors went through Arizona all the way up to the hobby reservation. They came also from Santa Fe, which was their capital at the time. Moguion was one of the first Spanish governors. So the Moguion one Ignacio Flores Moguion. No, I didn't know that. Yeah, yep. He was, it's for four years in 16, like 10 or something. He was the governor. Okay, yeah. You can see on the horses clearly, and they're human a humanoid forms, and they all have headdresses on and that the horse was introduced as you know by conquistadors to North America. Yeah, and they were stolen. Many times I don't think they were traded that often because they're too valuable in the early days, but Native Americans got some and then the planes Indians. I mean, they were, there was hundreds, there was tens of thousands of wild horses at one point, just like there were millions of buffalo. And they were the main ones, but to go over rough terrain in the West, the conquistors. They don't show up in many Petroglyphs, the books I know. And this one is beautiful. Yep. And it's almost like a freeze frame of one of them talking like looking back and talking to one of his other people, like that they were, you know what I mean, like giving them orders is his hands up directing. There's three clear ones. Yeah, marching faster and then below that at the back left and looks like another human feature, like he's on a horse perhaps to or he's falling off. Hello. It's difficult to see I have the larger version that shows this whole boulder. This section you're looking at here is about two feet wide. And wow. Well three feet wide and two feet tall. This photo is, but each of those horses, Petroglyphs are about, I'd say eight inches tall, maybe 10. Wow. And we saw that we were like, Oh my gosh, because, you know, they're not documented in any Petroglyph books, this picture that you've taken. No, and I've been wanting to go get with my friends at Coconino National Forest. I've known them for 40 years, the archaeologists there is a new head archaeologist, Peter Pillis was the previous archaeologist, and he loved Petroglyphs too. There's two huge sites outside of Sedona, Honankee and Palatke. Palatke's opens the public honanke's where tours go, and they walk you through and they describe stuff. And Peter came down once and give a three hour class that I was fortunate enough to be a part of with three other people. And oh wow, they went over what they were saying about stuff and then he told them if they're full of shit or not. And they were 90% totally wrong. They were saying this, this is the Shaan's Cave. And he said, Well, actually, in the Senoa, which means without water, that's the nickname the ancient people of the Verde Valley. He said there was no, no documented signs of shamanism at all. But they called this shaman's cave because of the petroglyphs that were associated with it. So then he would go through and then say what was more likely. Excellent. And I was, I wasn't, I had already been a grower 20 years before I met Peter. And, and he, I shared some things with him but I never took my petroglyph book. I have all these as photos, which I've since digitized, as you can tell here. Yeah. I've never, ever, and I've been to newspaper, not newspaper rock but this big one that's up near the Hopi Res and other areas. This is fascinating. The largest in Northern Arizona is called newspaper rock. And it, it was a site that was used for many years. People add to it and add to it and it was like a newspaper they akin it to, because it had so much information that was obviously into the rock over many decades, not just one person sat down for two years. This is, this takes to do one of these figures. This is called, this patina is called desert varnish and it appears on rocks as they get older, certain types. This is volcanic rock. And it gets this brown or blackish patina. And to peck into it, it reveals the real color of the lighter rock underneath. It takes hours and hours to do one of these. You're using another rock in your hand that's hard, like maybe a piece of granite or something, and maybe point it so that you can peck the design you want. So yes, it might have represented more than one person leaving their information over many years. It's hard to say. Yeah, I think the top three at least at the front two here were probably simultaneous in one stretch maybe in a, maybe they spent a week doing this. Who knows. You know, I just think like the part that catches me is is the guy in the middle with his hand up like direct like that, because it's like it's almost like obviously he was the boss. He may have had a stick in his hand to whip the horse with, you know, because oh yeah. So it may have been they were portraying that he had something he was hitting the horse to make it go faster. I don't know that the Spanish use either. That would be another interesting thing to study. Definitely something on his head. Yeah, and the guy up front here had these men rival tribes in the plains Indians they were lots of headdresses, but that was the late 17s I think or maybe mostly in the 1800s. These are going back to 15s and 1600s when the first horses came through in the Senawa. And the Mogulian people saw them. Yeah, through. And they were just like what the heck are those. Yeah, yeah, they didn't even know horses were right. No, no, can you imagine mind blowing a horse. And humans on top of them, just riding them around wearing armor and helmets, and because they were worried about getting shot by arrows. How quickly though like the plains Indians adapted to be able to earn native Americans were adapted to be able to ride horses and became very proficient horsemen. Bear back to. Yeah, amazing. It's just amazing how they adapted to that. Oh, it helped them hunt and made their life easier. Yeah. They call dog soldiers to the people that rode the early horses. They were they were comparing horses to large. What does it feel like to be around these petroglyphs. Did you get any like. I know it's kind of hard to quantify spiritual spirituality and feelings and stuff. But did you ever get any kind of spark of energy or any kind of sounds so weird saying that. But did you ever feel anything around these petroglyphs of note. Yes, but it's hard to quantify like you said, sitting next to a fire. We made underground fire pits so that the flames wouldn't be visible 1600 feet above us was a small Pueblo, the ruins of it just two foot walls, but the outlines created made about 20 rooms. Wow. And down below the boulders that next near the creek that had the some of these petroglyphs had outline of that structure, you know 16 rooms, little squares. So, they, they had some very interesting communication and to feel is that next near the creek that had the some of these petroglyphs had outline of that structure, you know 16 rooms, little squares. They, they had some very interesting communication and to feel. Well, to be growing weed in the middle of all that was very, very powerful. If we had a farm where and just had 10 acres it'd be cool. But being surrounded by this and at night hearing a creek flowing by and bears smashing through the bushes and stuff. The only thing that divides you from the people who wrote those messages is time in like, what a small barrier in some ways and understanding and understanding. Yeah. So I'd like to talk to you about one thing. And this is something that I feel like it like, I talk about it a lot but I'm younger. So, even in my generation, it was almost a loss or unless you were into maybe tattooing or even plumbing or part of a union job or something like that which is apprenticeship, learning a craft under someone. Learning, learning the the apprentice meant apprentice mentor role where you snap to it do what you say, you know, because you're learning. And how that applies in modern days and how much of that is missing now. In your time when you wanted to learn to grow were there guys that you could apprentice under how how would you have found an apprentice in the 70s. Let's say or 60s to learn to grow in 76 when my dealer friend from Tempe said let's go around. And I'm sure I already had a green thumb as far as I worked on five acres of garlic with some other hippies and cottonwood Arizona. And I love taking care of plants in my yard vines. Anything that could make it pretty and beautiful. I planted a few trees already. So I kind of knew soil culture a bit comfortable to step in then. Yeah. And yeah, what I didn't know is anything about the needs of cannabis as a group, and especially when to harvest it and how to manicure it. How to dry it manicure. So that was self taught with my friend. He had never grown either. And luckily we had the growers guides and later marijuana botany and all these fantastic. So I frequently say the word. That word has always been my guide and my mentor. I would buy books and books and books on everything and just read and get ideas and ways to do it. I didn't apprentice as a carpenter or plum or anything like that. Today, you know with the advent of more artificial intelligence doing other things. If you can fix air conditioners or heaters or plumbing or electricity or build things. You're not going to have to worry until it's like George Jetson time and robots around and do everything. I don't know that that day is going to come. But probably will. Yeah. Maybe 50 years from now or 30 years. I don't know. They're creating robots to fight other humans, which is stupid or other robots. Yeah. You know, being an apprentice to a great mentor would be fabulous. I know people who have gone to work in Colorado at big rows and learn the basics. And after a couple years they come home and they, they've learned what they needed to know to feel confident to do it themselves. But jumping out. Yeah, like you mentioned, if you're not invested in it and you haven't put 10 or 20 years in, you can always just quit, like you mentioned, and walk away. Whereas someone who's spent a whole lot of years learning how to refinish furniture or build furniture or anything. I know a nephew who's learning about furniture right now and he's refinishing it and starting from scratch. But I don't think he has a teacher, other than maybe YouTube. You know, and that's, that's a legitimate method of learning now that wasn't there when you're doing stuff. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I want to change out my headlights on my Tacoma, because they're 10 years old and they're fading. And I bought 3M cleaners to put on, you know, and wipe the glass. It's not even glass, it's polycarbonate. And it works for a while and then it goes back to being bad. Yeah. So I looked online at a guy who shows how to replace them. And there's like 10 different electrical connections. And if you could take a photo, every time you got to a certain spot and you're going to pull this one off and this take a photo, and then when you pull it out take a photo. Yeah. I got to a dealer and paid them to do it took them an hour and a half to put two new ones in. It would have taken me two days. Oh my God. And I made a mistake, and then have to troubleshoot which wire did I leave off or put on the wrong one. It wasn't so it costs $150 alike to have them do it. And it was worth every penny. So I bet those guys who did that in an hour and a half. They apprenticed for many years. Yeah. Mechanics who can do stuff like that. I'm in awe of. I never need to ask to that level. No, I never did with change of starter in my Volkswagen van. I did that myself. I felt very proud. I bet I used to have a 66 bug and the idol pin would always mess up. So I learned that if I got duct tape and a pencil eraser and put it on that idol pin that it would fix it every time that's about the most auto mechanics I've ever done is the old eraser. Yeah. You turned it on its head and found a workaround which I did, which I've seen some great mechanics back in the days that could do the same thing and duct tape man and bailing wire got to have bailing. So when you're off road and you hit that muffler and it's hanging, you can strap it back. So there's also the idea and this kind of goes along with the idea of mentorship apprenticeship and it's becoming a part of a group. For example, when you become a part of a forum. When the forum days were around and big, you know, I remember my first time coming on the forums and trying to figure out how first, what am I, what do I say without looking stupid. Right. How do I integrate into this group that I don't quite understand some of these subcultures like I was a punk rock kid in my area growing up. I don't really relate to the deadhead community very much but that's a lot of this community is the hippie community so I've got to learn to integrate and communicate with people I've never really integrated with or communicated with or understand their cultural subculture and we don't really seem to have that anymore what we have our social media where you just blast out whatever, you know, but back then you had to integrate yourself into a group to gain access, not even to gain access but to to learn from each other. And at that point, you know, to share then cuts were shared between the group, because you trusted each other you knew each other, you know, and it was over a period of several years where a lot of these groups and friendships were formed and bound. And I talked to the guys today, like in my in our Patreon discord group, and I see how some guys try to assimilate, you know, and some don't. It's just, it's very different than the forum era where you, where you watch these personalities kind of try to assimilate. Whereas now it's just like lots of clashing personalities all falling on top of each other and nobody really understanding assimilation into groups. It's very fascinating. You mean like I see my good. Yeah, exactly. It's a bunch of personalities all screaming at each other as opposed to like a group working together. I see Mac had the great, you know, SD's finest group that did pretty cool. The San Diego's finest cuts on I see Matt, those guys did really good for a long time. But there's so far and few between I mean you have the land race groups on IC mag that all kind of pulled together, you know, over time. They have some good groups. And yeah, you know, had a huge following Tom Hill eventually got so fed up with all these people hounding him and he, he would just blast people. Tom was one of my early heroes. Yeah, the floor just because he didn't like it's not that he would just go off on people that wasn't it it was that he would do it and he was right and he was correct to when he was saying it, you know, and he was a geneticist. He can walk with the top of me if he and Rob Clark were sitting down, or someone who really knew genetics well. He, he would have no difficulty, you know, talking about back crossing and just all the different mathematical formulas involved. What, how many would be this how many would be that way. What gene expressions would do expect. Yeah, I love that. It's beyond me. I can kind of grab the concept. If I'm growing a hybrid. And I have 10 of those come up, and I look at them. I'll see differences in them. I'm not sure I could scientifically say, Well, one quarter we're going to be this cross, you know, and express these recessive genes and it's something else. Yeah. Yeah, trying to have conversations with him is is very humbling. So on a breeder level. Going back to the apprenticeship. Imagine being an apprentice. You know, as an artis in the Native American days, or someone who made projectile points, whether they were spear points for the paleo in the inst 10,000 years ago to run up and kill buffalo, or the archaic period that came next. And then they were at all points that were look like large arrowheads and they would boost a spear throwers spear. And then finally, the bow and arrow showed up in the Southwest and little tiny points, which are sometimes called bird points. They had to be very tiny and sharp and lightweight because they're going to be shooting through the air on a stick. And if you put a big point on there, that arrow would just go. Yeah, yeah. So those to find and to find their ancient work on the ground when you're hiking is mind boggling to to know how long it would take to be an apprentice and get skilled at making those when they had such a tough life to live every day. Yeah, they couldn't just take a whole day to make points unless they were special may or so good, or maybe women, they, they believe that there was great women point makers to because they didn't go hunting as much. Yeah. They were taking care of the home front and they would have possible time, at least before the advent of people growing crops and corn. Yeah, where you had to be out, you know, taking care of the plants and stopping animals from eating them. Wow, we've covered a lot of territory today. I love petroglyph stuff dude like It was like it was like I was connected with everything around me. All of a sudden I just started questioning everything I'd ever been told. You know, by the time, by the time I got high that very first time when it started to hit me. Breeders Syndicate Update. Not only is our mark store up at syndicategear.com, but all episodes will remain free. But what we need from you is interaction. 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