 Welcome to the show policy for the people. I'm your host, Minari Mordecai. Today on the show we are discussing a topic that's near and dear to my heart computer science education in Hawaii. I'm joined by a very special guest Dr. Chuck Muen, who is a faculty specialist at the University of Hawaii at Manila in the College of Education. She's an expert on learning technologies and Dr. Muen also writes about and assist schools with creating internet safety policies and teaching students about safe online practices. Last year I had the privilege of working with truck on a statewide landscape report to look at the state of computer science education in Hawaii. So let's begin with the basics. Let's dive in and Chuck, if you could tell us what is computer science and how is it different from digital literacy. Oh, that's a really great question, Minari. Thank you for having me today. Computer science is the study of computers and the principles of how computers function. So that includes algorithmic processes, hardware and software, the application of computers and different systems and and their impacts on society. Digital literacy, on the other hand, is about your knowledge about how to use digital tools effectively, efficiently and responsibly. So I'll use roads as an example. You know, we all are on roads regularly, we drive on them, we bike on them, we walk across the street. We know what the signal lights mean, when to go, when to stay, how to stay in lanes as we're moving along. That's our knowledge and our responsibility. So road literacy is like digital literacy. But do we all know how to build a road? Do we know the differences between asphalt and concrete? How to design a bridge that thousands of people walk over, bike over, drive over? We don't know those. We don't know the waterways. We don't know how to make lights turn green, yellow and red. Those is that's the computer science aspect of it. So there's a difference between knowing how it functions and how to make it function and how to use it. That's the difference between computer science and digital literacy. But it's a pretty advanced skill to be able to have computer science literacy. So you and I worked on the landscape report last year to look at computer science education. What we found is that computer science education has become critical to developing strong tech labor, not only in Hawaii, but around the country. So can you tell us more about the connection between computer science education and its impact on workforce? Why is it important? Does it lead to better jobs or wages? Yeah, you know, those are really great questions. Also, understanding computers and how things are interconnected. That's important in this day and age of technology and the Internet of Things. There's communication technology, entertainment, music, fashion, food, and so much more. In the computer science, we look at the production, the analysis, the timing, connecting people. Even President Obama once said that in this new economy, you know, computer science isn't optional. It's a basic skill. And I think he said that because he recognized the interconnectedness in the workforce regardless of what we choose as our careers, as our professions. And computer science is a factor because it gives you a leg up on how things can be done more efficiently and effectively, you know, how things function and how things connect. So you talked about the shift in the labor tech force, and I think that's really an important thing to consider the diverse workforce in the tech labor workforces is critical. Computer science needs to be dominated by men and the growing presence of women, the growing presence of our LGBTQ plus colleagues, people with disabilities. Even some of the underrepresented groups like our Black, Hispanic, Native, Indigenous colleagues here in Hawaii are Native Hawaiian colleagues. All of these voices and perspectives are important in the conversations of progress, and it's actually shifted away from how can we do it faster, to why do we do it, and what benefits can computer science give to society as a whole. And I think that's so exciting and talking about ethics and the benefits to society that computer science offers. I think it's made richer with these diverse voices and perspective. So talking about the how much we make is an important question. They say that the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they say that the average salary here in Hawaii for people is about $53,000 on average, whereas in computer related occupations, it actually goes up to $85,000 for your annual salary. In general, you know, computer science knowledge can be leveraged into better paying jobs. I think at the national level there's going to be about 10.5 million jobs in STEM, and STEM means science, technology, engineering and math. And they're predicting that seven out of 10 of those jobs will be computer related jobs. So overall, it just is, if you have computer science knowledge, and you can leverage that into any of your chosen fields, I think it does lead to better jobs wages and better economy overall. Thank you for that. So can you give an example of how computer science can be helpful in science and physics, for example, or in sciences that are not directly computer related but still we see an impact of computer science and other industry. Right. You know, you're talking about physics, biology, other sciences, and all of these different fields actually use a lot of data. And data science is an outcropping of the computer science field, and there's so much data that is coming at us from different places. Even as we sit here joined online, all of this had to have been developed, managed, actually maintained in some manner, and all of that really starts with computer science and understanding how those things come together and can connect. I would say in, in physics, you have a lot of computations that are needed in physics principles, and so that comes with our computers. And if you have something that's inputted, and you have something that's processed and outputted, that's a computer. So your basic calculator is a computer. And gosh, our phones, all the developments that happen there. So I think data is the part that computer science comes into play with a lot of different professionals. So someone who's managing a bakery actually can use some computer science skills to help manage their bakery and the functioning of that. That's great. Definitely using a lot of data for the show as well as other things in our lives. So it isn't computer science or people with skill or skilled in computer science are in demand now and will be even more so in the future. And I know you had pretty interesting conversations with tech industry leaders, and you learned about the types of qualities and skills that they're looking for when hiring in the tech sectors. What were some of those things that they mentioned, the types of qualities that they look for when hiring? Wow. Our industry partners, we talked about a dozen industry and non-profit technology professionals. I could crystallize it into one thing. I think what they're looking for are people who have strong interpersonal teamwork skills, who can transfer the knowledge that they have into different situations. Not necessarily people with specific computer science knowledge, but generalized computer science knowledge or that thought process, the logical reasoning, the understanding of how things are connected. That's what they're looking for. They said that they weren't looking for specialized knowledge because they can build that specialized knowledge for their companies when a person joins. But it's harder to develop interpersonal skills and the mindset of logic reasoning and interconnectedness. So that's what they're looking for. The other thing that they said that was fascinating for me is the recognition that they want younger children to be exposed to computer science concepts and ideas earlier because they want children to know that what's possible for them. Exposure at an early age instills a really high level of curiosity to reason out how things are connected and what leads to the next thing and what might come back around again. So they really emphasize exposure to computer science at an early age, just as a curiosity, and then when they're hiring someone who has interpersonal transferable skills. Interesting. I imagine also builds sense of confidence to start learning about computers early on. So, there was also conversation about we have a high demand for the workforce. We know what we're looking for, but it's still challenging. You're facing challenges and hiring people to fill these jobs. What were some of the challenges that they mentioned have been in fulfilling tech sector jobs. That was a robust conversation and everyone started jumping in. I think that's about that. You know the main challenge that our industry partners shared with us was that students who are computer science oriented. So they may have taken AP computer science they may have been in clubs. They may have done things on their own. A lot of those students are actually leaving Hawaii. And when we think about leaving, they call that brain drain, it's a terminology that they use and and other people use when they leave it's because they're seeking better jobs elsewhere, or they're seeking higher pay. And so we can't seem to retain them here in Hawaii there's a misperception about the lack of jobs and computer science when actually there are quite a number of jobs here. Our industry partners are sharing with us how they'll bring students in as interns into their companies. They're pour so much energy into training them and welcoming them into their projects and getting them enculturated into their particular settings. And then they graduate and they leave. They leave for elsewhere and we're all happy for our students we always are when they find opportunities when they're accepted into colleges and schools on the mainland and we're very happy for them but at the same time there's a level of sadness because we don't know if they're coming back and trying to pull them back has been a challenge for the tech industry. It's also been a challenge for other industries as well, because we have such a high dependence on tourism here in Hawaii, and the tech sector jobs are seen as elsewhere. This pandemic has changed that perception. We don't know yet, but some companies are changing some of their policies. So perhaps some of that has, it has been dealt with, maybe. Well, thank you. I was wondering if you can briefly I mean no pressure but if you were to solve this problem of brain drain. You have ideas. Quickly, I think that if our programs here, whether an industry or in higher education, if we built into our programs and opportunity for kids to get away, our students to get away our interns to get away, learn and then bring them back, but build that into the program so that you bring them back at the end of the program then they're here again, and then I didn't reconnect it. I think that could be something that provides an opportunity to deal with brain drain. Thank you. I like that idea. Not know we are off on a very brief break and we will be back shortly we're talking about computer science education in Hawaii with Dr. I'm Mitch Ewan, host of Hawaii, the state of clean energy on think tech Hawaii. Hawaii, the state of clean energy is about following the many clean energy initiatives in Hawaii. Hawaii, the state of clean energy appears weekly on think tech Hawaii at 4pm on Wednesdays. Thank you so much for watching our show. We'll see you then. Welcome back today we're talking about computer science education in Hawaii with Dr. Who is a principal researcher for computer science education landscape report last year. So, can you tell us a little bit about what you found terms of the interest of the students public school students and I know your report was focused on public schools. Which is the K through 12 public school students showed and learning about computer science and whether you saw some discrepancies there. You know, there were some discrepancies and so I do need to give a shout out to Menara also who was part of an important writing team for the landscape report. You know, in terms of K 12 students showing interest. I think we didn't get to talk to the students directly. But if you were to look at what types of courses they're signing up for, and what courses they're completing in the high school level, you'll notice that there are students who are interested, but there might be a competing course that prevents them from taking computer science and so that was often happening at the different schools as you're just looking at the scheduling and the course structure. At the middle school levels it was a little hard to tell because at the middle schools most of the computer science courses. When we looked at them were required courses like all students. So we couldn't tell if there was choice or not choice, but the high school levels we started to see choices about differences in interest in computer science versus something like web design, which in some way in some places were listed as computer science but we're starting to get better definitions right now around what is and is not computer science, but what can we do to increase their interest. I think we need to change the messaging around what computer science can lead towards as a career as a as community impact because a lot of students are interested in community impact and want to give back to their neighborhoods to their communities. I think also industry can play a role in that in making more clear or more evident what roles in their particular companies have a computer science aspect to it. So I think maybe those as we could possibly do. Okay. I know so one of the things that prompted this report the landscape report was Governor EGA and the educational leaders in our state they did recognize that they're needed to something to be done to increase participation in computer science that it has become a critical subject area for education so three years ago, there was a law that was passed in Hawaii. Act 51. Can you tell us more about Act 51 and what it intended to do 2000. It was passed in 2018 so we are now three years forward looking back at what what's been accomplished. Right. Act 51. Right it was passed in 2018. It was stated as and this is political language but it was stated as science the matter of statewide concern. And so they started with that. And what they did was, you know, our lawmakers as you said they saw computer science as having a potential to shift and drive growth and in innovation in our economy here to broaden the concepts of tourism to make other industries stronger and Act 51 had two different mandates that made it the final version because there was an early version and a final version. In the early in the final version. The first mandate was to develop a statewide K-12 kindergarten through grade 12 computer science curriculum for our public spaces. So that was the first mandate. The second mandate was to ensure that all public high schools offered at least one computer science course. And in Act 51 they allocated $500,000 to help to develop the curriculum plan. So that was part of Act 51. Now the part that did not make it into the final version was a mandate to make it a graduation requirement. And that graduation requirement I think in my humble opinion we weren't ready for that yet, because one there weren't enough courses. So if there's no course, and a student can't take it how can you make it a graduation requirement. So we need to work a lot with our teachers still in order to have something like that be a graduation. So, where are we now we have all our high schools have your science in them different levels of computer science but they're all present in the school at least. So I think that's a good thing. And a lot of teachers have undergone professional development at this point to learn more about computer science and what it means to have a class that has in it. So you said they're different levels, how do you classify that if you can give us some examples of different types of computer science courses from like the most advanced to the foundational one. Great. You know there's a in the course structure of the public school education system, the most high level of computer science you can take is called advanced placement computer science. These courses lead towards college credit if they're accepted into the different colleges and universities a student submits their score to. So there's AP computer science principles, which is a fairly new course. It's for generalists. So those who might not go into computer science as a field or a major, but want to learn more about what computer science is, and how it's connected to our world and our everyday lives. So computer science, a they call it that one is for those who are interested in becoming computer science majors and going into the discipline of computer science in their future careers. And that was a little more intense it goes more into programming and algorithms and networking, and a little more closely into databases as well. There are other types of computer science courses that might be part of a career technical education pathway. So you have some business technology some engineering technology courses that are considered computer science also. So it really runs the gamut. So I think this year with a new bill that's coming up they're going to start to clarify the definitions of what is computer science and how that's defined and described. Okay, so can you tell us a little bit more and I know it's exciting news that Governor eager just announced that you'll be signing this bill as B to 42. Tell us more about this it's, you know fresh off the presses. It is. Oh my gosh, Menara it's the first thing it does for me is, which is something that I really wanted to do was, it defines computer science that is for me really important. It actually adds the language of what computer science is in in the in the bill and last time when we did the computer science landscape report. There was still confusion over what is and is not so this bill actually defines what computer science is and what the course structure should be in order to earn computer science credit so I think that was important The other thing that the act does or not this act the previous act looked only at high school in terms of mandatory computer science. This new bill is introducing a staggered requirements of computer science and elementary schools in middle schools and and how that's connected to the high schools. So that staggered requirement of middle schools and elementary schools and the connection, what we call the vertical integration of computer science. I think that has so much promise. And it's going to be exciting to see what the school systems do to actuate or implement the private particular bill. So, you know, since 2018 I know the Department of Education has worked pretty hard in increasing number of courses increasing exposure. Where do you see, do you feel like, or did you find when looking back, there's still some equity gaps in participation you know we definitely had an increased in number of students who are participating computer science but is everyone going at the same pace. What do you find in terms of that. Well, definitely everyone is not going at the same pace. What we found was there are definitely gaps in elective participation. So of course with the courses are are set for you and you must take it that's one thing and so that there's no gaps there because everyone's in it. So looking at the advanced courses and you look at the elective option. There is a decrease every single course type and structure had a decrease in the number of girls there are always more boys than there were girls. There's also a reduction in the number of students in the free reduced lunch programs for taking computer science by choice. There's also a reduction in students who are designated ELL or English language learners. And also we took a look also at whether our native Hawaiian Pacific Islander students were enrolled and we found a very low number. It really matters the school and the type of computer science that they're offering, because there is a range and there is a difference from high school to high school of what is offered and so I think overall we need to do a better job of scheduling opportunities so more students can take it if they want to, and a better job of offering the varied courses. And some of the, if they can't take it at their school, is there another way that students who are interested can take it via another means. If it's not offered at their school, because maybe there's only one student who's interested in a in a higher course. And right now there's there is a school there's an online school potential and possibility. It's just the students need to have access and that opportunity to take those. Thank you. So, you know, you mentioned that I really like the reference you made to making a cultural connection and making sure the students know the impact that they're learning would have. Can you think of other examples of policies you've seen coming out of other states to help alleviate some of the equity gaps to make sure that underrepresented students are becoming more interested in computer science. You know, I think the most exciting thing I've learned about has come out of that has come out of other states has to do with connecting it to society. And so when you have something that's more project based learning oriented, and you can pull the ideas of how computer science can make something better. So they identify a problem or, or they're trying to develop a solution for something that really gets the kids thinking about how can I bring myself and my knowledge, and even my culture and my background into these solutions So bringing that in. I think that has been a fascinating aspect of some of the other programs and other states is not just talking about the content of computer knowledge on computer science knowledge but also the what do you bring to the table and can marry that with computer science knowledge. Here we have the hall framework in our public school system, I think that can be a powerful powerful entity in computer science education here. I think, you know, we need to stop thinking about if we build the course the students will come. And we need to think about how the course can be built to engage the students and to tap into some of the skillset that they already have some of the knowledge that they already have and coming to the table. So I think that for me has been the most exciting thing from other states that I've seen. Thank you it's very inspiring and a great way to end our conversation. Again, we're talking with Dr truck new and she was one of the co authors of the landscape computer science education landscape report. Thank you so much for being on the show that when it was pleasure as always to talk to you. And I can't wait to see what's next.