 Hey, folks, welcome to the podcast today. I spoke with an amazing lady called Seema Adya who is a space Underwriter very very cool She started at the University of Cambridge did a degree in natural sciences and then a PhD in satellites Looking at astrodynamics in geodesy and some really cool stuff that I don't understand and She made her way to becoming a space underwriter And we had interesting conversation about off-earth mining about asteroids manufacturing in space and What Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Richard Branson all racing to do in space and then we had a little look at Startups and what's going on there. So really cool, and I hope you enjoy it Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast Draw conversations anytime anywhere Cool, I'm alive Seema, thanks very much for coming in I've been looking forward to this podcast for ages because it brings me a bit back to my science days Okay, and space is really super interesting. So how did you get into space insurance and? Just complete if I'm honest completely randomly, so I was always into space growing up I wanted to be an astronaut and still working on that. It's not not quite Did a degree and did a PhD in satellite stuff And then I worked in the UK industry at a place called kinetic and while I was there I was working on a team that were doing reliability Analysis for satellites and so I met some people that worked in the insurance and somehow they wanted to work in London Which I wasn't at the time they offered me a job And I moved over so at first I was doing reliability analysis for satellites Which was quite related to my background but quite quickly. I like the people side and the client side. Yeah, what's right? Reliability analysis. Well, just looking at the likelihood of different components to fail on a satellite. Yeah Yeah, cool. And then what was your degree and then so my I did a natural sciences degree at Cambridge And then I went on to study Astrodynamics at UCL, which is the study of man-made objects in space. Nice. Yeah, it's really interesting actually I was looking at how sunlight actually affects the orbit of a satellite and it was in collaboration with The Jet Propulsion Labs with NASA so I was over in California a lot and it was it was really fun It was really really good actually amazing amazing and then so you worked in In industry for a little bit. Yeah, then went into insurance. Yes, and it was a complete accident I had no plans to move. I was enjoying what I was doing, but this I this this came along it was in London It was a startup that I was working for so many things about it appealed And then I just this is what I've done for the last 11 years I've moved to companies quite a lot, but it's it's I never you know insurance you grow up just thinking well What you know, you don't you think it's probably quite dull. You don't really think about it But there's so many interesting parts to it and the way it impacts almost everything everything you do So it's actually a really good interesting super interesting It's not something that's marketed much at university. No, you don't grow up thinking I want to be an insurance Nobody thinks that most people fall into it and then finally can't get out because it's yeah Well, they basically it's like solving complex problems and and space certainly is yeah So what so what is a space underwriter do? Well, so we ensure satellites and rockets and there's probably about 200 satellites in orbit that we ensure There's another 50 launches each year that we ensure So it there's probably about 50 people in the world that do it. It's quite quite niche But it's very global so you know now I've done it for this long as a little community of a space underwriters and we go You you basically have to look at how likely a rocket is to fail or a satellite is to fail That's basically what you do but to do that you visit the manufacturers You learn all about their technology their missions what they're trying to achieve everything new on the satellite It's quite a detailed process So you work with a client on one risk for you know six months or a year or by the time you finished one You're working on the next thing with them because they're like something else So it's a really close relationship you have with the client. Do you get in there while they're developing the satellite or the rocket or whatever there? Yeah, they start to put the insurance in place because of the way the financing works They often have to have the insurance in place that happens quite early on in the process before everything's necessarily finalized nice So you get to go meet Elon Musk and yes Jeff Bessels and whoever Bessels yeah, I met Elon back in maybe 2011 a couple of times 2009 2011 before he was quite kind of like the rock star. He is Yeah, he was I mean he was he was great He would give us a tour of the factory where this Falcon 9s were being developed and he'd know everything inside out and explain it Wow, and he really had his vision which is Ultimately to colonize Mars was there, you don't often sit down and you and someone's there talking about how they're gonna get to Mars and all his satellite stuff is You know stepping stones to that to that end goal. I think do you think we'll make it make it to Mars? I think he will actually I mean he's do with it. We'll make it to Mars before in our lifetime So that's how long we live But potentially Whether we'll be able to get back. I don't know. I mean There's a lot a lot has to happen But we I feel like we're at the sort of inflection point where there's some very rich people that are interspace and technology investing in it The private sphere has really gone and we're gonna it's for all very quickly gonna happen There's an awful lot of stuff to solve for Mars. I mean getting into orbit You know humans into orbit private space flights gonna become more common over the next few years a lot of people working that and then Trips to the moon and then maybe living in space more permanently and then Mars will be another step beyond that Nice, but it'd be quite short time for him to think Potentially I think he is SpaceX are planning to send people to Mars within the next 10 years I personally find that a bit. Is that a one-way trip? I Don't think so. I don't know. He's trying to send robots and probes and stuff there in a few years And then humans maybe I I mean, yeah, I can't see that many people signing up for a one-way trip Although, I don't know. I thought there was some game show Do you want to go to Mars and colonize? Yeah, yeah, didn't apply for that No, I didn't apply for that either But with like yeah, you can like why I interviewed a girl last week who grows meat in the lab And so with all these things you can just I guess go to Mars live in a bubble grow your meat and I Mean so much is happening in lots of different industries all at the same time that will really enable that kind of thing I think radiation is still one of the big problems because miles doesn't have an atmosphere which on earth That's what protects us from a lot of the radiation You know and getting there the time it will take this there's a lot which hasn't been figured out yet Yeah, a lot of clever minds are working on it Yeah, yeah, and then so and then the so the rockets are now reusable As you guess was one obstacle to yes, so both SpaceX and Blue Origin Jeff Bezos's company are developing reusable rockets with SpaceX. Yeah, we ensure those now We're actually gonna see the Falcon Heavy on book to see it in two weeks. Nice. So is this the new? Well, the Falcon Heavy. It's the first commercial flight. They had one test flight Which is when they launched the Tesla That's from Cape Canaveral in Florida. So I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah, so you get to go in watch the launch Yeah, it's touch wood because they often get delayed, you know bad wind shear or weather or whatever Okay, yeah, hopefully hopefully when we're there it does happen We are booked to go nice and have they got commercial passengers on that. Oh, no. Yes. Sorry. They have satellites They've got a satellite that we're ensuring. Yeah, fine. So SpaceX are planning to take humans later this year Mainly for NASA to start with but they're gonna have spaces for paying private passengers So whether that will be it'll be in the next couple of years They did their test was I think it was in February Where they tested their human rated dragon caps you're with a dummy in it So they would have had that covered in sensors To be able to look at, you know, how safe it would be for a human So I think they get their rate at their human rating. Yeah getting there. I'd love to do that Yeah, well, it should be a possibility. I mean, I'm sure it will be. Yeah I mean if we live to a hundred ish Definitely and the price should really drop and you know, also Virgin Galactic are doing the space tourism thing So there's a lot of different what's a spate that said are they doing that already the space tourism again It's a similar time frame. I mean Virgin Galactic have been working on this for 2004 so but it looks like they you know, they had the first flight of White Knight 2 It's kind of like their plane and then there's a spacecraft, which is ejected from that once you're up I think it's 50,000 feet and then this the That should happen in the next couple years It's always been a couple of years away But it really feels different because there has actually been humans that I've got like pilots and seen not not commercial paying Private passengers. Yeah. Yeah a year or two away now. So all the kind of drive-in advances from private business rather than government I mean the space X has been largely Supported by NASA for example, so they've given space X large contracts to develop the technology So since 2011 NASA hasn't had a way of getting its own astronauts to the interspace. It's been relying on the Soyuz the Russian Vehicle so particularly ideal So they really wanted to develop develop their own capability and chose to do that through a few different companies SpaceX being one of them There's another one called Northrop Grumman and through Boeing and they're giving them large contracts to take cargo To the International Space Station in the future humans in the near future humans as well So the money is coming. It is private companies doing it But a lot of the funding is not just private. It's not just the money that's coming from NASA Okay, fine, but then and then no government sent anyone to the moon for a while, right? I was reading the other day. Oh, yeah, I mean there was that all that activity in the 60s Yeah, nothing really But I think Trump just announced that is it in there in the next five years or something They're gonna go back to the moon So I did it the dark side of the moon. Yeah, I'm China. Yeah, China said something recently Yes around in orbit. So soon people are gonna You know, I think I think it is mainly going to be driven by private enterprise though Yeah, yeah, and the states there's gonna be a bit of a you know a space I think the US has woken up to the fact that China's now a big player India's becoming a bigger player You know, it's not just the Russians anymore. So there's the there's the sort of Space race between the states still but also now we've got these private entities as What's the race? No, what are they racing to do? Is it well to dominate space? I suppose no one aims it, right? No one no one owns it. Although that also is gonna. I mean, there's the truth. I think it's There's the treaty is it the outer space treaty of 1967 which sort of gives Says, you know any science or sorry explanation or use of space needs to be in the benefit of everybody So I think more recently there's been different countries have made different Rules, but there's no international law. I believe at the moment that governs how we can use space So so I could stick a satellite in space with a high high definition camera And I could record or video anyone anywhere in the world. I think can I yeah? I mean for certainly for communication satellites. You need to get licenses for frequency bands that you can use But for an imaging satellite, and yeah, there's there's no international law to say you can't there's lots of guidelines about Yeah, what you need to do to make sure you don't have collisions with the people and you need to provide your data But it's more at the guideline stage in the sort of legal to shame like the world can't come together and We can go and do it collectively That that would be nice. I think the International Space Station is quite a good example of international collaboration. Yeah But you know there's a lot of money to be made from space and there'll be you know private entities that want to Exploit that it's always been the way so just the the off earth mining. Well, that's a big one. Certainly I mean, there's so many near earth asteroids so rich and resources and There's been a lot of investment in how that can you know how how we can benefit from that And there's a lot of debate about whether the rights and wrongs and who owns this so for asteroid mining at the moment, I think a Few countries have said that you're allowed to Any money you make from mining an asteroid with the resources of yours and then any future profits or whatever can be yours but not all countries have done that UK hasn't done that yet and There's no international law that governs out these individual countries coming up with their own, you know regulations and and some some I think Luxembourg's offering financial incentives to companies that are developing Expertise particularly asteroid mining amazing. Yeah, it's Someone was saying that there's enough metal in the asteroids Both just above earth to build a skyscraper 600 stories high that covers the whole of the planet or something. Wow That's you know, yeah, that's I mean, I think I heard something like 16,000 Asteroids sort of accessible more accessible. Yeah, wow, you know just the amount of metal They will contain the amount of rare precious metals that we need all the time for you know gadgets like our mobile phones or for energy-saving light bulbs or electric cars all of this they're quite Abundant they're just a little bit far away. We just need to get the technology I mean mining technology will be significantly different in space Just based on the fact there's no gravity and and all of those things so there's a lot a lot a lot to develop and The it's whether the guidelines and the and the law and the frameworks can keep up quickly enough with all activity So who's so who so if Luxem so someone like Luxembourg encouraging businesses to do that? So they have to be based after based in I think they have to have some element of Yeah being based the company can be based but they don't have money to be made mining The asteroids would be outstanding. I mean, yeah, if you could develop away I mean the quote I think I mean one of the main reasons to do is if as a human race We decide we want to spend more time in space for a live there work there Actually, it you know be more normal then there's no point Building everything from Earth because Earth's a really big gravity Well the energy to take a building on earth and take it to space It just isn't going to be feasible. So you're really going to need to Take the stuff that's already there and then you can create, you know, all these Sorry orbiting cities and moon bases and everything else and fuel You can get fuel from asteroids from water. Do you break the water down into the hydrogen and oxygen so liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen? It could be a rocket fuel and so There's there's every there's Technologically, there's a lot to do but there is an awful lot to make it worth developing that but there are a lot of people that worry about us Interfering with the asteroids And think that you know, it's pollution. It's ruining our you know What right have we got to turn space into this big quarry and just mine it like that and We're ruining it. I'm not sure I agree with that I think well some some maybe some of the asteroids are seen as a couple that are a bit large that we know about and see and they Have names and they have they're sort of unique and beautiful and perhaps yet It's not right to go but there's a lot up. There's a lot of rocks just whizzing around in space But people have quite strong views about whether it's right for us to Yeah, but then the thing with the earth is that I don't know what was it eight billion at the moment people in the world It's only going up. Yeah, it's only going up. Yeah The natural resources are going down We've been destroying our planet. So I guess a good argument is let's live on earth and let's manufacture and mine Like a garden of beauty. Yeah. Yeah, if we can improve it and yeah, yeah the pollution will go down and maybe And I think the you know mining these the stuff that you were going to get from these asteroids So some of that is available earth, but it's not easy to mine It can be quite dangerous and quite toxic. So if you can take that off the earth, you know, you could mine stuff and bring it back To earth. I don't think that would be the main Use of it, but that would be another use of it But then you'd find you know the price of let's say you got a whole load of platinum or titanium or whatever a gold Brought it down and you had abundance of it. The prices would change very quickly. That's true That's true. But yeah, but you can you can see a scenario where we'll just mine Asteroids and then the metal will come down. Maybe maybe to build stuff and yeah, it's hugely exciting I love it. It's amazingly exciting. I worked on a project at Kinetic So this is before I joined insurance and it was a for the European Space Agency About designing a mission to deflect an asteroid because we thought one was you know We need this capability because you might get a bit of notice if an asteroid's coming towards you won't get that much So you kind of need a plan in place for what you would do and that was in 2005 and things have moved on so much in that time in What what vehicles you'd use to launch what satellites what weight they would need to be to do the science around Working out which which asteroids are the best so that's happened quite relatively quickly Yeah, so I see how the step all the next steps will be very quick amazing the Internet's only be around 20 years Wow, yeah, I know I was trying to imagine what was What the future is going to be I was reading this book called Homedaeus the sapiens and Homedaeus and Homedaeus is human gods and it's talking about the future of mankind and stuff and You know, he puts forward the idea that you know, we're algorithms and we're developing AI And they're gonna be better out algorithms than us and we just an incubator for the next life form Yeah, and for interstellar space travel. It's probably not humans that are going to be going on such long journeys It's going to be AI or computers and They're not subject to the same, you know, they're not as delicate as we are They'll live for and they'll live forever. Yeah, but be interesting to see what happens. Yeah, I can't even imagine I mean like going to the moon You know, maybe there's gonna be like some nice hotel boutique hotel on the moon somewhere It should be within our lifetimes. I think I do whether we'll go. I don't know I think our children will go if they want to yeah I think we'll be able to I hope we'll be able to go Yeah, you know further out maybe not but yeah, I think so But with so yeah with this there's so much money to be made in mining these asteroids. It feels like You know people like Elon Musk will really yeah It was reusable technology for these rockets If the I think it still needs to be proven that commercially This is a viable concept and SpaceX are going to make money from reusing. I think that is we're still waiting for that Yeah, yeah break sort of to be confirmed But if we think about the point where rockets are just used more likes Aircraft are so they're reused. They're not just thrown away. They were used hundreds of times or even more then everything's gonna get so much cheaper And that's gonna allow So all sorts of other industries so, you know tourism like the Marriott hotel or just any I'm not naming any in particular But they might suddenly think oh, there's you know now It's a plausible business idea and that everything might come together the other interesting thing I was reading about was a long haul Travel and that might be replaced or you know another way to get there would be using a rocket Which takes you to suborbital space and I think is it again SpaceX? They say they can get anywhere on the earth point-to-point within an hour Wow And so if the cost comes down to equivalent to a flight maybe a business class flight And you can get to the other side of the world in an hour that will change if it becomes affordable and safe Who wouldn't do that? That'd be amazing. You could work in Sydney and live in London. Yeah, there's probably shorter Can we communicate at the moment? Yeah, yeah, definitely definitely Yeah, I mean what the implications of that are to the environment and everything else There's a lot to think about but I think that might they think the demand for it will definitely be there and the Technology will be there. So then it's just a case of working out The other pieces which obviously need to be need to happen. Yeah, yeah, definitely be possible. I love that. Yeah, there many like startups in The space. Yes, there are a huge number and more as Just for the reason described launches becoming cheaper satellites becoming cheaper Startups everywhere you see Yeah, I've heard about some small startups people coming straight out of university and doing startups in the UK and there's The the amount of investment in space from quite serious people serious backed people a Huge so they range from, you know, relatively small companies to huge companies like one web, which is a startup And that's what do they do? One web are putting 100 so maybe 900 to 1200 satellites in you know in a little bit Communication satellites and they will that was quite small but not that small probably the size of them You know a small fridge for example They should I think the aim is to Provide broadband to the other the rest of the population at the three billion that don't currently have access to the internet and other countries so So, I mean this and how far how far in orbit did they put that? They are at not not that high So there I think about a thousand kilometers 1200 kilometers So rather because it's the space stations that say 250 300 it varies a little bit so further out than that But still in what we call low earth orbit low earth orbit fine, and then planes are flying at Well, they're at sort of I know 50,000 70,000 feel something like Well, so we basically got like a whole We cocooned in metal about all of these different. Well, I suppose so I'm the signal Good for is that good for our health and I don't think there's anything to suggest it isn't yeah And it says it most start at some mostly around satellites and communication That we were seeing no the asteroid field the Just things like deployable, you know antennas There's all tiny little areas of it, you know sort of components for for the satellites There's in orbit servicing so satellites that are up there already and they need they've run out of fuel But there's nothing else wrong with them. There's a lot of companies that are working on that problem Debris cleaning up space. There's there's a lot, you know, there's a huge area And I think it's probably the fastest growing industry really and it's and it's being funded by so government Space sexes of this world's a private equity and yeah, I mean there's a lot of the billionaires race really You know, they're all made they've all made their money doing other things They've got passion for space and a billionaires and this is gonna check they are gonna change the way we live Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're all doing it. It's crazy. Really interesting And what about is there much being done to communicate with other life forms or? I don't about there's obviously setty the search for extraterrestrial intelligence Which is this organization that are constantly looking for signals. Yeah elsewhere in the universe I don't know how acts. I don't know how much more than that is going on, but I Mean them personally There must be other life forms. It's just whether we'll ever meet them, but we're finding more and more habitable Awesome, thank you very much. Thank you really nice to talk to you and you and maybe we'll do one from space Thank you Hey folks, thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places