 Call us if you need to order. Take roll call, please. Boren. Here. Folk. OK. Bowers. Here. Decker. Here. Hammond. Here. Hannah. Excuse. Heidemann. Excuse. Kittleson is here. Montemayor. Here. Renfleisch. Here. Brasler. Here. Sampson. Here. Vanderweel. Excuse. Versi. Excuse. Anne Wangeman. Excuse. OK. Quorum is present. There was some miscommunication via email today. Quorum is 50% plus 1, so we need 9, which we do have a quorum this evening, so we can enact business. Please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Looking for a motion to approve the previous minutes from November 17th. So moved. Second. Motion made and seconded. Any discussion on the minutes? All in favor of approving the minutes, say aye. Aye. Chair votes aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Discussion and possible action regarding revised design guidelines for the South Pure District. JJR, a Madison-based consulting firm, will provide a presentation and case studies related to the South Pure District. Chad, would that be good? Sure. This is kind of a movement of city development. Steve and myself, when we get interest for development on the South Pure District, and we all know that there's been some good projects, there's been a few not so good projects, and these guidelines are really what kind of directs the developer on the specifics of what we want this area to look like. And this actually came out of the 2003 acquiring and development of that, and it's a document that's an ongoing usage document that we use in our office to guide developers on what the vision is for that district. And the reason we've asked to come forward and do this is a couple of reasons. We wanted to make sure we've got the most up-to-date current information for guiding development on the South Pure District. And number two, to provide an opportunity for new members of the council that maybe hadn't been involved in 2003, but this was developed and kind of learned why stuff has laid out the way it is and what the vision was behind it and where development will happen in the future. So we've contracted with JJR Automaticine, a consulting firm that developed the original guidelines and regulating plan to help us update it and through a number of meetings and comments in existing conditions down there, we've come to where we are today. So I'll be turning it over to Brian from JJR to give the presentation about the successes of South Pure District and where we see it going in the future, hopefully. Some of the types of businesses that we will be looking for. The other thing I wanted to say, we've invited members of the Architecture Review Board, the Redevelopment Authority and the City Planning Commission to attend and there are some in the audience. These are the boards and committees that have direct impact on what happens down there and approve or disapprove the developments. So without further ado, I'll turn it over to Brian and then after he's done with the presentation, we'll have a question and answer time if you guys got any specific questions about it and then ultimately what we're looking for is positive recommendation to the Council, the whole Council for adoption of this plan. So with that, I'll turn it over to Brian. Thank you, Jed. And thank you all. It's good to be here. JJR has been involved with this project for well over a decade, I believe. And to be involved at this point to help it go through another phase of development and to kind of be able to mind who things we're very proud to work with you on this project. And what I'd like to do tonight is talk a little bit as Chad mentioned about why this project is the way that it is before we get into the regulation plan and to sum up just to sort of review for you some of the accolades. Yeah. We'll need the. Oh, okay. Thank you. Is that better? And just it's interesting because we work on a lot of projects around the Midwest and on the lakes. And this project is often used as a case study and people talk about it and know about it. And so I wanted to end by just giving you some of the things that we hear about the project and why people think it's worthy of visiting and worthy of studying. So with that, I'm blocking here. I'm squeezed. Keep me from moving around too much. So this basically is, as I mentioned, I talk a little bit about the history, the regulating plan and why we're doing it and just generally what it's about without going into all the details. And then the idea of South Pier, which has become a model of success that a lot of communities look to. Back when this project was started, of course, there was a very different situation on the site and for the community, a real question of what to do with this land. Like a lot of cities, Sheboygan has had a situation like this where you had prime waterfront land that was used historically for industry and other purposes. And now with those functions leaving, the question is really what should be done with this? And it's a question that's answered differently in many communities. And right around the time that this was happening, it was clear that in a lot of cities that were dealing with this kind of issue, what was really replacing the city as the location of industry along the waterfront was a kind of place that really was kind of an experiential place. A lot of downtowns that are developing successfully are using their unique assets, whether it's culture, unique retail, unique living opportunities. And what you have is already a sense of kind of a fishing village and a marina and there were things that were already sort of in the work. So the question was how to make this place something that was economically of value to the city but also fit in with the publicness of the waterfront and added a lot of new community places to go to and things to experience on the waterfront. Great, thanks, Jen. And there was indeed quite a challenge and there was a lot of work done to improve the environmental conditions. There were a variety of funds used, grants and all kinds of mechanisms. Next please. And I pulled this from back when and what the goals were, to promote and protect public access to the water, to stimulate reinvestment in the Central Business District, the idea that this could be a catalyst to help the downtown and the community as a whole, to improve water-based recreational facilities and navigational access to the river and to establish Sheboygan as a regional, a waterfront destination. And destination I think is an important term it really puts the place on the map and build on the maritime identity of Sheboygan. Again, the idea of authenticity, not just doing cookie cutter things but trying to discover what's unique here and try to build to that and to seek public and private opportunities and funding sources that minimize the negative impact on local tax players. Next please, Jen. And the idea back at that time and I think it still permeates through is to look at creating a kind of waterfront village. And here are some ones that many people know about Mackinac Island, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Fishtown, even Port Washington. And none of those, you can't look at any of these and say I see exact remnants and pieces here but there's a spirit of place here that is about a collection of a diverse group of uses, building styles and an emphasis on pedestrian quality, history and we think that's different than what you think of waterfront village in terms of is it a section to a waterfront development which implies a great big project. So that was sort of some of the models that were being looked at at the time. So this is the plan and the plan was organized around a series of public streets and the water's edge, probably the most important part is the river's edge with the river walk being totally open. The way the plan was organized, if you look at it is that almost every street leads to the water and that's important in creating value on these building sites because not everybody can be on the water but if you walk out your door and you can look down the street in a block, half block away you see water, it makes you feel like you are connected to the amenity here. Of course the hotel resort is the large piece and also a series of public places whether it's the river's edge, the lakefront, streets and sidewalks that allow this to be interconnected which is another village-like quality. This is the document that guided development and this is still the document that will be used. What we are doing is sort of looking at a particular area, the live work section and adding a few more guidelines to it that reflect some of the lessons learned as we've gone along and it's sort of a chance to fine-tune and provide a little bit more direction for this sort of last piece of the development to be implemented. And in doing so we wanted just to sort of document again the public places and we think these are very important. These are really the heart of the project whether they are important streets that lead to the water, nodes along the river walk. You can see them very well but like B and D are plazas at the end of streets that form focal points and then of course the edge and the differing conditions river versus lake. E out at the very end that was always envisioned as a kind of gathering place, watching fireworks, having festivals and as we sat down and looked at the regulating plan for the live work area, we really wanted to keep in mind that we respect and make decisions that allow development to support this network. So the regulating plan deals with the brown area there, the live work zone as it was called in the 2003 guidelines. And the reason for the document is to ensure quality and compatible development over time and to provide direction to developers, staff and citizens in evaluating the proposals as they come along to give direction but to allow some flexibility in achieving results. And this is just a general description of how the regulating plan works but it's done according to streets and there are three primary streets that are involved with this zone, South Pier Drive, Lakeview Drive and Blue Harbor Drive. And the idea is that the guidelines deal with the character of each street. Each street has kind of a unique role. South Pier Drive is sort of the main street of the development and it has the shanties on the west side and there's a pedestrian quality to it that is different than one would expect to find say on Lakeview Drive. So the guidelines provide direction for each of these different categories and there's a short paragraph and some text and in terms of building use, the street activation that basically is how you deal with the ground floor level to make it interesting to pedestrians, building placement and scale, where you put the building on the site, putting the buildings at the corners, where are entrances, things like that, parking and vehicular circulation, service areas, building heights and encroachments. For this zone, we looked also at the building types that would go along with these streets and the character that was intended for them and what we have included here, and this is sort of a reflection of the need that's been discovered in some of the first projects to provide for what we're calling an enhanced shanty. As you may know along the river itself, the intent is to have these small scale buildings, they're all kind of pointed ideally towards the water with spaces in between that echo what's going on on the other side of the river so that the river has this compatible kind of development on each side. For the other side of Lakeview Drive, we're envisioning that we could have a slightly larger building and they could be up to three stories and they might all include offices. That was not really a part of the original plan, but we think this gives you a zone there, the sort of the red boxed areas that you can, if you get a project or someone that wants to do a larger building and wants to do office, you can still do residential and retail, but it gives a place that we think it's appropriate to put those and then that will allow the riverfront area to be reserved more for the smaller scale, the buildings that really fit in with the kind of fishing village and pedestrian use and maximization of the water's edge. The idea is that there's parking in the middle of the blocks that's similar to what the original plan was and then along Lakeview Drive and a portion of Blue Harbor we're envisioning what we're calling residential rows, so those streets would be primarily residential and we're thinking kind of a traditional townhouse or a walk up corridor building, condos, that sort of thing and these are some images that depict what that might be like. So again what it's doing in terms of making a change is that it's creating a proper place for the slightly larger buildings that contain office uses, the water's edge reserve for the smaller all retail shanty buildings and there are guidelines for these super shanties that ensure that they're still compatible with pedestrian qualities. For instance, if you have offices on the ground floor, you don't want filing cabinets, storage, those kinds of things right along the sidewalk where you have a lot of pedestrians, you'd want people to have either offices or entrance lobbies, things of that nature so there are some guidelines that talk to those kinds of aspects of building use. It's really the use of the ground floor that is most critical in making these kinds of developments work and just to step back and talk about this project and how others talk about it. And this was, I think we're very happy to come and present this to you at this time because with the announcements last week and the sense that things are moving ahead, I think this is a good time to look at this plan and say here's, this is the next phase, these are some guidelines to help it make it a success but to realize that when we go and work in other communities, it's when you're in the trenches and you're here and there's ups and downs with projects, starts and stops but from our perspective, we keep hearing people talk about we wanna do what they did in Shboygan. I'm working in Oak Creek right now and they have a 250 acre brownfield site on their waterfront and they've sent members of their building, their advisory board up here to look at the plan. They know about the quality of the spaces and we've worked in a lot of other communities that point to this and we just think it's from our perspective that you may like to hear that, that it's highly regarded in many circles. And it's also won numerous awards from the Waterfront Center, the EPA Phoenix Award which they give those out every year and those are to the most exemplary brownfield reclamation projects in the nation. So it's a very extremely high award to get. Milwaukee Real Estate Development Showcase Award in ASLA, Wisconsin has given it a Planning Honor Award and it's been a part of case studies which are when projects are done elsewhere and they'll go and they'll do a bunch of research, okay, why did this project work and what are the ingredients for success? And the AIA, RUDAT, that's the American Institute of Architects, they're sort of Urban Design Squad, they send people to different communities and at the Miami River they just did a charrette where this project was featured. The Port of La Crosse is now looking at it, we're doing that project, Frankfurt, Kentucky, Quad Cities, Waterfront Center, annual awards, and others. And kind of the things that are talked about that people think that have been occurring here that they're trying to study and take out of it is summed up in these four words, holistic, quality, patience, and responsible. And holistic means thinking of the big picture, having an idea that is of the community that thinks about creating a place that isn't just about one thing, but about many things. Quality is in terms of the details and I think when one looks at what you've installed for the streetscape, the infrastructure, the buildings, it's all of a very high quality and that's not always easy to do or to ensure. Patience, this has been going on for a long time and you have been able to keep the vision going and there have been a few hiccups along the way which is quite natural but we try to tell communities that you need to kind of keep the bar high and to try to don't just accept anything that comes along but try to work to find something and foster things that fit with the overall vision which again is not always an easy thing to do in practice. And finally responsible, I think it deals with a number of things environmentally, it's the cleanup and the benefits that that has brought to the community, responsibility in terms of trying to promote value in the community in terms of economic development and responsibility in terms of the community making sure that it isn't a gated private development which I understand that way back there were some proposals that did that and that's what you often see in other places as an idea but having something that's available for everybody to use that you can, when your friends and relatives come from out of town you drive them out on the end of that little circle and you can see the water along with the other wonderful places that you have here in the community so. So that's kind of taking you from the origins of the project and bringing you through to the current date and so again we're very pleased to be involved with this project and with you all and I guess we would entertain any questions or comments that you'd have. Any questions or comments from the committee? Alvin Morne. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Alvin Morne if we could use the mic could we our televised again. Thank you. How many condominiums are down there currently above the first floor buildings and what's the occupancy rate of the existing condos before we consider building an annuance? Chad. The condo. Chad. Chad can you grab the mic right in front of you? Thank you. The buildings that have condos in them now are the Altmeyer shanty where Trey Sheik is and I believe there's half of those sold. Then there's where Popcorn Planet is some of a majority of them have been in foreclosure. They've been sold, bought from the bank. So I think there's still a few units there that are vacant. The sea rice coal, the last I heard three quarters of those were sold and then you have the blue harbor condos that are part of the blue harbor development. I understand those are rentals though. Yeah and I think the key here is this is not going down the route of maybe more condos as much as it's going down the route of rental housing and market rate apartment houses for the young professionals to live and work in the area, in the downtown where the young people wanna be, the new generations wanna be in the center of the city. So we would look to the townhouses development necessarily wouldn't be condoed as much as a rental unit, a higher quality rental unit. If I could just follow up? Please. Now, if I remember correctly, blue harbor went online in about 2005 or was it 2006? 2003 or four? Well, when it actually opened up. I think so. Okay. And then as the other buildings, perfume buildings were built, including some of those condos you were talking about, some of those weren't completed until later, correct? Correct. And so the opportunity in a vibrant real estate market for those things to rent is at a very small window because the real estate market started to go down the tubes in late 2007 and early 2008 and it hasn't been very vibrant, especially for condo mortgages. It's harder to get a condo mortgage. So I'd be very reluctant to build any more housing down there until this thing turns around. If we can't even sell the ones that we have and some of them that we have sold on there are now in foreclosure, I think we have to be very careful with housing as we go forward until this whole real estate thing turns around. I might speak to a little bit on that. I've been in some of the condos, especially the ones over popcorn planet. And it appears to me that the developments of those condos were really more for the tourism based to buy, to rent out either in the case of blue harbor as in the hotel pool, none of the cases as investment properties, you know, you buy a condo, rent it out to people and you come through. Even the rice coal, very nice redevelopments, but the price wise, they're not, as Chad was saying, really for the young urban professionals, the next generation, they're priced too high, quite frankly. And I wouldn't mind necessarily seeing, when people are looking at relocating here that don't necessarily want the yard for the dog and a sidewalk to mow, they want something that they can walk out, eat some fine foods, go downtown, but it's affordable. Now talking about subsidized housing, we're talking about areas where the new graduates from college who are working in lower management or something who are single, those kind of houses that those current condos don't really speak to, I don't think. Correct. And there's some of us in the room that just participated in a thing with the Sheboygan County Economic Development Corporation and young professionals from people from 18 to 40 years old and they broke up in the ish and they broke up into groups and talked about what the county needs, what the city needs and the ongoing theme that I took out of that is that Sheboygan in particular has a lack of professional housing for the young people to live in the downtown. There's subsidized units, there's the units above existing retail establishments but there's nothing new, loft type trendy apartments and Don was there once you consider that that was kind of the same theme across the 50 or 60 people that were in the room? There were several themes, but yeah, that was an overriding one that young people, again, the difference between baby boomers and Gen X, Gen Y is that they wanna be more urban, they wanna be close to where things are at, they're not looking to be out in suburbia, they wanna be close to the action and I concur, I mean, I think what can be going down there? And just to be clear, we're not discussing a plan, there is no development plan for something to build condos right now, this is, we're looking at setting our master plan that a development does want to come to the city, these are the kind of things we may be looking for. So I guess to speak to Elman-Born a little bit that there is no plan right now to build more condos, it may be a ways out before an additional housing use plan, Elman Hammond. Thank you, one of the things I appreciate from the plan is that the goal is to keep this area as public as possible and to give the citizens a varying of experiences, you go down there, there's retail, there's nice restaurants and I'd like to see that continue, even with housing. And I guess my second comment before my question is, we have a unique opportunity right now to really get this right and put some forethought in as your patient's comment exudes we have the chance to be patient and get this right. I guess a quick question, restrictive covenants, I didn't see anything in there about restrictive covenants, do we have anything, or maybe I missed it, but do we have specific restrictive covenants if they're building townhouses down there, that they have to be somebody's square feet or they have to have X, Y, Z? I think the covenants that you're speaking of are probably the design guidelines, right, which is the first part of what we dealt with and then a specific about the regulating plan as to locations of buildings, but there's no question in the different zones, the live work, the shanny areas, there are covenants that restrict the type of development, whether it's the shanny, whether it's heights, whether it's building materials, where windows should be, what should be on ground levels, things of that nature. So I wouldn't say there's a restrictive covenant in terms of use, but there's a design guideline that will focus the type of building development. As a follow-up, thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the reasons I mention that is, I can't tell you how many people in this room can probably express the same sentiment. How many times people have driven down South Seventh Street towards Pentair and commented on how nice that is that that's wide open now with Pentair down? And I'd hate to give up that vista. So that was part of the reason I was asking, or I don't wanna see another, at least I prefer not to see, I'm one of 16, but some kind of huge monstrosity of an apartment complex there that really takes away from that vista coming down South Seventh. Right, and you raised an excellent point. I mean, one of the things we as staff and working with consultants and as well as the groups that are helping us with the architecture and the development proposals that are gonna be there as far as approval process, everyone has an input from not just staff, but the committees in terms of, hey, we wanna make sure we have these things. We like these guidelines because when someone comes in, we know in advance from you guys taking a look at this and approving it that we have a document to work with to say, hey, here are some important aspects that we believe should occur down at South Pier. So we can utilize this document when people come in to say, hey, here's why we're keeping this view corridor. Here's why we're doing it this way. I guess the one example we have that's down there that we have some comments and things we'd like to deal with is triple play. There was a certain design. We found out the soils couldn't support the type of structure that was there. We wanted development. That's the thing we need to be careful with from my perspective. We wanted development. We want development, but you have to be patient. You have to have the right type of development. Look at the development you have on the other side of the river. That didn't happen overnight. That was something that took a lot of time and effort and was not very pretty, but you look at it today and it's 24 hours a day, seven days a week with the types of development you have on the existing shanty side. So I think it's real important, not only on staffs end, but on the committees, on the citizens and everyone's part to make sure we do this right. And maybe you can talk a little about plan unit development. The other aspect, and it would probably fall more into play with the plan unit development. Now a lot of people are aware that we have just done the Indiana a little bit more focused. We've done the Harbor Center plan and now we've done the focused on the Indiana Avenue revitalization plan, which speaks to development that could happen in Pentair and along Indiana, but specifically at the Pentair it would be likely as a plan unit development. And with a plan unit development, you can allow for different maybe variances and setbacks and types of things for superior design. So everything we're looking at along the lakefront, which is gonna be one of our key identities as Sheboygan is gonna be utilizing this plan unit development to make sure that the design is always pedestrian friendly, fits down at the lake, gets us what we're after. So the plan unit development process is kind of a zoning step that comes to council and then the actual conditional use permit, which pretty much goes to our city Sheboygan plan commission and architectural review board. And we feel that helps us as a staff have a little bit more control with what takes place down there. Not that we wanna dictate everything, but we have one shot at this and we wanna make sure we do it right. And getting the comment about avoiding massive buildings. One thing that's sort of built into the guidelines is this idea that ideally you have a bunch of small individual buildings, but that's not always gonna be the reality. So if you have a larger building, you break it down to look like it might be smaller buildings or in the case for the super shannies, we're recommending that the gable end sticks out and they can be linked and form a longer building, but still as you go down the street, you kind of get the idea that you have this sort of 30 or 40 or 50 foot module that reflects what's going on even if it isn't a larger building. So what I'd like to try to avoid is the whole, you see everybody sees these three story apartment complexes, every university campus has them and just to throw something up there and block, but your point's well taken. I think the other part about this is, there's been requests that have come before the redevelopment authority that approves the ground leases and it's related to the office. And that was one of the key things as some, the original plan had retail along the riverfront and there's been requests and there's some office now that's been intermixed in the riverfront shanties and by doing, by changing this and really giving them another option, they can put those offices across the street. Now the people that are coming to us obviously have indicated what we wanna be on the riverfront, but really the whole goal was to have retail along the river and offices inland so the interior lots could be offices with some type of housing up above it with a mixed retail, mixed use development. So I think it gives us a little bit more flexibility as we move forward and our entertaining development proposals. Are there any other questions from the committee? How about our guests from the other committees? Is there any questions or input they'd like to add? Dave, you guys? I'll repeat the question for you, Dave. The, I think we include the former Pentair site. So why do you throw a plan and incorporate that into the guidelines or whatnot? For the folks at home, the question's regarding the guidelines and does it include the Pentair site? The guideline, the Pentair site is under another planning document that we've enact that the council approved, I believe in January, the Indiana Avenue implementation plan. I think the biggest issue we have, the problem we have is we have a little bit more control over the land on South Pier because it is city or redevelopment authority owned. Pentair's property is owned by Pentair. And as Pentair comes forward, we'll have to entertain whatever their development proposal is. We've presented to them what we feel would be a good fit for this area, whether it's corporate headquarters, the large entertainment facility, you know, mixed use development and been working very close with them on that, but they're gonna still come to us with some ultimate design plan because we don't own the property. So, you know, we have a little control here and we'll be working with Pentair, but to bring the Pentair into it, you know, it didn't seem like it fit at this stage. All right, are there any questions? Go ahead, Dave. The second question is, the guidelines, you know, are these guidelines based upon what we can go out and get real life developers to put down there because I agree it's successful down there. Yes, but there's a lot of empty property down there and some of our ideal window of opportunities passes by when all is gonna be filled in and now we're gonna really be facing a very tough time. So, I mean, to what extent are your proposals based upon other areas where you've been very successful or are being successful and you know that isn't what the public is planning for? Well, the kind of model of what this is supposed to be is it's based on when you go to a lot of successful multi-use districts that are oriented to streets, you know, the buildings are built up to the sidewalk. It's sort of time-honored urban design, I think. And they're sort of a distillation of what makes these areas where you have a number of different projects, but you want them all to create a public place which is the street. I think this is based on the character of the street and a lot of those villages and developments that we think are successful, it's not so much the buildings but what they contribute to the public place. And so being based on streets by these frontage zone notions are something that we've seen in a lot of other form-based codes that apply to successful developments. If I may continue on that question. So the design obviously would be more urban to the streets, you know, living in big cities where the hot dog vendors are, people sit in the chat or they talk on street corners. But beyond that, is there call for office space that we don't have currently? Is there, will that be successful? Is there a call for more retail or should we look at some other direction on their besides retail? I think that, Dave, might be what you're getting at instead is beyond the plan of the design, the plan for what we actually would like to put in there, is does that meet what is being successful out there? Well there really isn't much that we allow certain uses but it doesn't dictators say that you should have X amount of them because that's really a function of the market. It really deals with sort of developing what the character of the overall place is which we think is important and you've already established you know it's sort of of this character, it doesn't look like a lot of other places and so it's meant to ensure there's consistency so you don't get you know suddenly Alpine Village built when you have this sort of shanty vernacular architecture. Alderman-Cath and then I'll go back there please. So if we're looking for long-term tenants, urban design, would attached garages fit into this? You know if we're looking for somebody who wants to order in Europe. We've talked about that, I don't know that we would entertain garages right along South Pier but Illinois Avenue, the street that used to be the access into the Pentair property, has a strip of land that would kind of warrant itself for having some type of garage as part of the development. So I think if you know if people would come forward and have a development that the garage isn't a prominent thing, you know like where you'd see a three car garage and that's all you would see was the garage, you know if there was some type of inter-goal garage as part of it, I think we would definitely look at it and where the placement is so that it doesn't happen on some of these main frontage zones. And there are some precedents where you have a garage that is on the street but it has a second floor where there's a bedroom, when there's a balcony or in a little cupola or something so there's a way it could be dealt with if it's designed correctly. We'll go back there please. This plan is more of a guideline and a regulating plan. There is no actually adopted restrictive covenants that you know right now. We pretty much follow what's in the guidelines as the covenants on the property but there are no covenants that come with the development. That would come when there's a developer. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Alderman Hammond first and then over here. Thank you Mr. Chair. Open to any one of you guys. One of my concerns always again going back to my point is we have a chance to get this right. Green space is there in the guidelines or in the plans to ensure that there's green space for these developments. So we put these townhouses, condos, what have you there that a place that they can congregate that they can have a sense of community on the south pier. Is that built into this? Yeah there are in the public space diagram that we had. You know it's mapping that those are not violated. There's also a connection through here. The idea is that that pedestrian connection be respected when that's developed whether it's a sidewalk or whatever so that that light green that you see and then continues through the middle of that southern portion is there because what that does is it allows you to have a loop and you can walk along the whole edge, come along the lake front and then come back around. Having a pedestrian oriented development to have a route and sort of able to come back again is important so that you don't kind of have a dead end that people like to be able to kind of circulate around. In that all these areas the guidelines are written so that the development addresses or enhances what the public spaces are there. Yeah and those were one of the things that we wanted to do early on was to make sure those green spaces were available and how they all tied in. But again if a developer came in and green space was part of the development we would take a look at that and how it fits into the rest of the plan with walkways and pathways and green spaces. But the overall idea was to first of all dedicate what we have now with the original development so everyone knew where those green spaces were gonna be and then as development occurred there could be some additional. The follow-up I mean I'm in favor of more green space especially down there. When you have again the public having access you get the beautiful lake front there. The clutter with buildings that make any sense to me. Doing it wisely, intelligently and having some green space like you do at the end up in the purple around the roundabout circle up there makes a lot of sense to me. And I would encourage us to take a look as a council and as a development at trying to incorporate as much of that as possible. One of the things we talked about was whether some of those interior lots should just be left, one or two of them should be left as is and it becomes a festival grounds area. But the area on the end of the cul-de-sac is designated to have a type of shelter for these festivals and that the festivals would happen on that area and the trails would connect into that for the pedestrian. So as we develop we're gonna continue to use that as green space and maybe there'll be some more another update to this or an amendment to allow for that depending on what type of development moves forward. The other thought we had about that too and the advantage of having it out there is that it brings customers by all the businesses back and forth to go out there which helps them get exposure as well. I can't argue the green point at all. One of the common things we often hear is parking. And so when we talk about the dedicated parking spaces that's another tricky issue that we're dealing with with some of the businesses that are coming down there saying hey we need more parking, so it's gonna be something that we really need to, the plan helps us out but things that we continue to kind of make sure that there's green space yet provide the parking and the other amenities that make those businesses successful as well. All of ours? Any other questions? Are there any businesses that we would not allow in there such as fast food? I think we could meet the architectural design. Would we allow fast food restaurants in there? And also as I recall a motel wanted to occupy space down there and it was turned down. Would we allow another motel down there if it met the criteria? And I guess that's about it. Well the hotel I guess is kind of a touchy subject. We'd have to definitely see. I know at one time Grand State was interested in opening up down there and there was some compromise with that so I think if that's the case I don't know why a hotel would wanna open up right next from a resort like that but a competition might not be bad. I guess we'd have to look at that. We've never ruled out the fact that we franchise restaurants anywhere in the downtown could happen and actually it's been a goal of mine to get a few more franchise type fast food restaurants in the downtown because I think there's a lot of people working in the downtown on the weekdays that have very limited spots to go for a quick bite to eat. We've heard this question on Indiana Avenue, the Pentair property, would we be against anything like that and I think if they're willing to meet the design guidelines we definitely would prove them. And I think one thing with regards to the hotel I think we have a significant investment in what's down there now and so I think we just need to be very careful when we're considering those options because we wanna make sure what's there is going to be successful because it has an impact on the rest of the area down there so it's something that we wanna be very careful with. Well one more point. Have anybody here ever gone to Lake Geneva? Lake Geneva has been a resort town for the last I would say 100 years and I haven't been there myself in the last 30 years but has anybody looked at that because they're very successful and maybe we could draw on their experience what they've done. Has anybody around here been in Lake Geneva? Absolutely and I agree and that draws people from everywhere and it has a healthy business climate effect. It's so healthy that parking is an extreme problem which we often think that when there's a parking problem it's a good thing because it means people wanna come there but they may have it an extreme but I do think there's something about that place and the design that's very unique and I think it is a very good model to look at as we think ahead definitely. Alvin Samson. Thank you. I just need to ask a pretty simple question here. I understand this is a presentation. Are we looking at doing something tonight? Are there decisions that we have to make tonight or was this just more of a presentation to show us where we're at? What we need to look forward to in the future? What exactly are we looking for tonight? I think what we're looking for is that a positive recommendation to the council and then when we submit the resolution to the council we'll attach a copy of the actual design guidelines which is a lot of, this is a real simplified version of that and if you wanted to go through and read through it on your own you could definitely do that. So what we're looking for from this group is basically to kind of agree with our new approach and send a favorable recommendation to the council, to the full council for adoption of these guidelines as kind of the direction that we want to go in the future. To sum up what you're looking for in terms of the different approach is the larger live work buildings, the super shanties what you're talking about which current design plan do not allow for, is that correct? That is correct. So what they're looking for is approval to go, allow within the design plan those larger buildings not on the lake, but on the next tier between the lake and on the other side of the road. That's the difference right now that they're looking for. Not specific to more condos, not specific to any one type of building but more specific to the design of larger buildings in that aspect that we don't really allow. So any other questions? Six o'clock. If there's nothing other questions I'll seek a motion for exactly what Chad had said looking for permission to send a favorable recommendation to the council. And again, when it does come to council we'll have more details. Yes. We'll have more detail before we final approval the council. I'd make the motion, Mr. Chairman. Motion is made. Second. Motion made and second. Any discussion on the motion? All in favor of that motion say aye. Aye. Chair votes aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Any motion to adjourn? Thank you very much. Motion made. Motion to adjourn. Is there a second? Second. Thank you all for coming on Ash Wednesday. All in favor of the adjournment say aye. Aye. Chair votes aye. We stand adjourned.