 Welcome back. The Justice of the Federal High Court sitting in Abuja on Monday dismissed a suit filed by the 36 States Attorneys General and the Nigeria Governors Forum seeking to stop the Nigerian Financial Intelligence Unit from implementing its guidelines on the spending of local governments in the country. The Nigerian Financial Intelligence Unit or NFIU had issued these guidelines in May 2019 to guard against the overbearing influence of state governments in the administration of local governments monthly allocations, the allocation from what we call the national cake. Well, the guidelines also reduced the cash withdrawal from local government accounts to 500,000 Naira daily. But the plaintiffs, the state governments, had argued that the guidelines were in breach of financial autonomy of the various states as enshrined in the Nigerian Constitution 1999 as amended. Now, what does this judgment mean for the government, local government administration and governance as a whole in Nigeria? Glad to see we have joining us on the breakfast this morning to discuss this. Femi Lawson is a public affairs analyst and he's also joined by Mark Adebayo, who is also a public affairs analyst. Gentlemen, good morning and thank you very much for your time. Good morning and good morning viewers. Okay. This is the one, the federal government has gotten one over the state governance. Generally, your thoughts on the ruling by Justice Naira, start with you, Mark Adebayo. Yeah, thank you so much. It's quite significant for our democracy and for our governance system. The issue is that if the state governance was sincere in themselves and they are not interested in giving their hands to what belongs to the local governments, they will not go to court, they will not begin to challenge this at all. Because, you see, in the 70s and 80s, the local governments were autonomous. In those days when we were growing up, we saw that in the local government, we have a complete fleet of tractor that they used to give to farmers to go and plow their farms. We have a complete fleet of graders to grow drills. Local governments were grading roads, were maintaining roads. So they had the resources directly from the center until the governance and the state governments took it over. Unfortunately, the section one, six, two of the constitution, not the national constitution that's amended, which is a military decree in any way, did not see Nigeria as a federation and therefore went and created this dirt account between the local government and the states. And the state governments believe that whatever belongs to the local government is their pocket money. So they just give where the local governments, maybe five percent, ten percent of what comes to them, normally, what is allocated to them. There's only one state that I know of, which is Kogi State, that has given local government autonomy, has given the judiciary autonomy. I wonder why, I mean, the governor from went to court, but I'm sure this Kogi State government will not be part of that suit. Why? Because it has given autonomy to local government under the administration of Governor Iyabilu long ago. So everything that comes goes directly to the local government in Kogi State. So I thought others will go from that leave, and then there was no need. If you are sincere about governance, I don't need challenging that. And that's why I give kudos to Governor Iyabilu of Kogi State for having done his own. And that is one of the reasons that some of us who are clamoring for the social of this country believe that what Iyabilu is doing in Kogi State, in terms of autonomy of local government and the judiciary, is in tandem with the social clamoring in this country. Why would you want to sit on the allocations of local government? If you are sincere about development at the local level, and you know that the closest arm of government to the people at the local government, why would anybody want to begin to take what belongs to them? It is not fair. And I am happy with a lordship for giving that government. And I think if you go with your work, they are likely to challenge it. But even with the Supreme Court, justice shall prevail. The local government deserves the allocations that come to them. And state governments are better removed their hands from it. And that is why they want to they enslave, they enslave the local government, because the government can the states have overbearing influence on what goes to who. They just give them whatever they want to give them. Now, that is why governance is going down at the local level. Like I told you, local governments were maintaining dispensaries, local hospitals, local governments were maintaining roads, local governments were having farms, local governments were supporting farmers. All fleet of graders and tractors belong to local government. During the Ibabangida regime, that was a military regime, was the best time for local government in this country. We discovered that local government had resources to develop their localities. And they did it as we saw in the development. But today, the local governments have become slaves and herald boys of the governance. They cannot, in the federation, we have the federal government, we have the state government, we have the local government. So each must take what belongs to it without the Fabian influence of another arm of government detecting and determining what goes to you and how you spend your money. The local government is the closest to the people and must be allowed to function. All right. So without... Makadebayo, yes. What do you call it? Any presidential order? You know, it is being parties in Kogi state. Why can't... Makadebayo, let's bring in Fermi Lawson at this point. Makadebayo, let's have Fermi Lawson come in as well and share his thoughts. Do we have Fermi Lawson? Yes. All right. So Fermi Lawson, what are your thoughts on this? He's talked about the fact that, I mean, the overbearing force of state government over this local government is because they have no respect, you know, they have no respect for governance. Would you say that's the case or is the case that the 1999 constitution itself is not very explicit? I mean, you have a lot of lacunas. There are no specifics. Well, good morning once again. One of the major factors responsible for, you know, such some of these things that we witness in our democracy, including the audacity of governors to challenge, you know, a decision to allow local government to take their money is because of the very founding and new constitution that the country operates today. You must always understand that, you know, until we really go back and add a people constitution that will really give autonomy, not only to local government, but to every other federated place. Today, what the governors are trying to do is similar to what, you know, even the federal government itself is doing. Every 30 days, the states have to go cap in and to Abuja to get money to run their states. So I think it's not even most times determined by the states, but, you know, the federal government sits in Abuja and decides, you know, our appropriate percentages that is due for local government, that is due for state government, because we have a federation that is not truly federal. If the states are able to generate resources and, you know, give return to federal government, nobody will be able to do the same and give return to state, nobody will be interested in, you know, a Babylon kind of democracy that we're telling you. What is the local government to continually, to continually, you know, openly demonstrate what the local government represents in Nigeria today. Today, the local governments are practically appending this of the government. The government cannot operate, they cannot even approve in press. We're not going to see the governor and in the worst case, the ones of the governor. That is how bad it has become. And that is why this ruling is very significant, but we cannot stop at the merit of this ruling. We must, as Nigeria, give back and true independence from every level of government. The local government is a creation of the constitution. It is not a creation of one governor or his wife, and it will so be respected as a level of government in Nigeria. It allowed me to run independently, of course, with supervision from the state or whatever authority, but reducing the local government to, you know, the level that you have to determine where the governor is, the chairman can put salary, what can be bought, what function he can perform. It's all ridiculous, and I think that is why the government is commanding them. All right. Whilst making a case for themselves, of course, the attorney general of the 36 states on behalf of their governments took, and the Nigerian government took the federal government and the NFI to court. Now, the argument they were making was that the guidelines by the Nigerian Financial Intelligence Unit were in breach of financial autonomy for the states, is what they're saying. I'll come back to you, Maka Debebe. They are saying that these guidelines are in breach of the principle, as enshrined in the Nigerian constitution, of financial autonomy for the states. What do you say to this? It's a supremist upgrade. If the states are conscious of the constitutionally guaranteed autonomy financially, and the local government is also entitled, are these resources allocated to the local government coming from the states? Does the state allocate finances to the local government? These allocations are taken from the central post, from the federal account. It's not on the state's account, and that is why I cannot say the federal government should not be interested in all resources taken from its folks, and judiciously expended. If you know some of us have closed continuously to the fact that the federal government has to breach the state and the local government, when the resources are generated from this local government at the state, and that's going to keep clamoring for the structure of this country. Okay. And be that what is made, if it is on the basis of the system, when the federal government allocates these resources, the ones of autonomy are you talking about? All right. Let me, let's bring in Maka at this point. Yes, yes. Maka, your thoughts on this as well. You've heard from your comments about Femi. The governors of the states are talking about their own financial independence autonomy, as enshrined in the constitution, as a reason to deny the local government's financial autonomy. That's why I said... Yeah, that question was addressed to Maka Debayo, sir. Well, you know, the governors are not being sincere. I mean, the governors who are involved in this suit are not being sincere. Of course, it went to court on behalf of the Nigerian governors, but like I said, the other time, it's not all the governors that are interested in this case. I'm sure. I'm sure that have been practicing local autonomy for some years now that Amilo will not be interested in that. You know, the thing is this, the governors have become so disrespectful of the local government level that, you know, that's why in spite of the government of the Supreme Court, that state clearly that governors have no right, have no authority or power to dissolve elected local councils. They see again in it, illegally or constitutionally, you know, that's why the Supreme Court will say that, look, you cannot, that the governor have... Well, that was what happened during the Hyde Yoha in Nemo State, you know, Reformer Governor of Hyde Yoha. Just when they had dissolved all elected local council before it came above and they dissolved it with impunity, you understand? So, they cannot... The issue of autonomy was over. It has nothing to do with local government autonomy. Are you aware that most of the internally generated revenues of every state is being generated by local government? Yes, the state will still take it from them. Most of the internally generated revenues are generated by the local councils, but they are taken away because of this joint account and they do not have the power to draw from that account. It is unfair. How can you have a joint account that you don't have the right to draw from? That is where the states now superimpose themselves upon the local councils, you know. So, if they are saying that the state autonomy, if they are talking about state autonomy, they should also talk about local government autonomy. Like I said, Nigeria was not like this. Local councils had their own resources. Local councils had their own budget. They had everything that was not as if the state would dictate to them what to do. They know their priorities. They were maintaining rules. You know, in those days, you don't have bushy roads, you know. It is the local councils that clear the bushes, both left and right. And when you are traveling, you see the roads clearly. It was local government. It was because of the depreciation of the local government responsibilities and authority that made many communities now to be backward. To be backward. Local councils were maintaining schools. They were maintaining toilets. They were maintaining parks. They were maintaining garages. Now, they don't have the capacity to do that. All they do now is to collect the little that comes to them and pay salaries. That's what they do now. Is that what local governments are set up to do? We are going to local government dispensaries. Now, that's not anywhere. That's not anywhere. So, whoever comes to equity must come with justice. You cannot have or whoever says justice must have equity in his mind. You cannot have a state that clamor for autonomy from future government while they are denying the same arm of government. Now, you have ministry of local government affairs which can superintend or if you like, monitor the activities of local councils, but not to the extent that they will be deprived of their constitutional authority to autonomy, to financially determine what happens in their local councils. You don't have to have a governor that has turned the local government shaman into his elder boys. No, we cannot have such a situation. Let each local government determine its trajectory of development. That is the argument. It is not about, it does not affect, the fact that the government is saying that stop taking from what belongs to local council does not affect the fact that the state has autonomy, but government, the government is trying to protect the interest and integrity of local councils. That is what is happening. All right, let's have Femi Lossin back on board. Femi Lossin, what would we make of this situation? I mean, now that the federal government has actually won the suit against state government, what does this really translate into? Does this mean now that it's going to be good news for local government? This is supposed to be good news for the local government system in Nigeria, but I am not excited really yet, because the general governors, except for a very few, have become known for being very disobedient of rulings of the court. Just like on the mark said, as we speak here today, no governor in Nigeria has the authority to dissolve democratically elected local government officials. But as we speak, a lot of states are still governed by caretakers appointed by the governors, arbitrarily they hide under the immunity clause to disobey the rulings of the court, including the highest court of the land, the Supreme Court. And that is why some of us do not really feel excited enough to believe that they will obey this ruling. Because the governors in Nigeria, majority of them have become known, and it is very exciting. Just like on the mark said, to realize that very few governors could give an example, have demonstrated the need for the independence of the local government. And that is why today, you can find local governments in the state performing functions of local government, like constructing local routes, backing on a cultured government project, running basic health centers, like you can see across the states. But this, the majority of these governors are not ready to take a grip on this. We live so much in disobeying this rule. I know that we are doing this, but even when there are other rulings, there is really a dependency for them not to obey this decision, because I do not know that they are even using it. But I know that as Nigerians, we continue to demand that the right thing is done, and that is where we can get it right. So, but what's the essence of saying that we are a federation, and of course we practice a federal system of government when you can have, I mean, you have the federal government, you have the state government, and then you have the local government in its real sense. They're not acting independently. So, what's the essence of saying that we're a federal government? We practice federation, you know, federation in Lekha, in theory. Nigeria does not practice in truly federal system, and that is why for those of us who believe that Nigeria must structure the first cabinet principle that we live in this country must uphold in principle through federalism. You cannot say you are operating a federation, a federal government, where one level of government has become so powerful and so dominant over the others. Today, where the federal government that is so prominent over the state in a system where, you know, even a government of the state cannot give order to a division of police officer in your neighborhood, that is not a truly federal system. And that is the same tendency that the state government has continued to exhibit over the local government. And that is why today, the local government has become practically reduced to arms of the stations of the government's offices. And that is why we must continue to demand for the structure of Nigeria among the part of true federalism. Because who could it be to have issues like these characteristics of our governments and some other issues that negate the principle of the whole place thing and true federalism if we don't restructure this country and come back with the people's constitution that will guide us. Mark, there is a school of thought that I'm sure this is some of what you and Femi Lawson have been trying to point out today that says that the reason why the local government administration in the country and local government chairman in different states are subservient to their governance and the governance can dictate to them what to do with their funds and what to do, you know, in the running of their local government areas is simply because he or she who pays the piper dictates the tune. And that this is not just a financial issue. This is also a political issue because it will determine where or how the governance control the local government chairman. Now, some would argue it could be argued that even with this victory at the federal high court of Milord the Honourable Justice, Ian Eqor, that even with this victory that the governance will still dictate to the local government chairman simply because of this thing called SIEC, State Independent Electro Commission, which in the real sense of the word is debatable whether they are independent. Will anything change even with this ruling? As we still have the state governments controlling the local government elections. Maka Dibai, over to you. Well, I align my thought with what a familiar said because governments and some government authorities in this country are notorious for disobeying court orders and court rulings. So that is not what, at least let us have it on paper that that is the law. That is the law. That is the that is the children's school that must be maintained. If anybody, very government to do, and let go of SIEC, that local governments have autonomy, have financial autonomy over their affairs. Like you said, State Independent Electro Commission, of course the issue is that many of these local commission members are likely to be blackmailed ahead in advance before they even get to to office, you know, because if you do not cooperate with your governor, if you're not allowing him to take what he wants from your local government, he probably will have a way of dealing with you. I even orchestrated your government from office, you know. That is the kind of policies of the kind of atrocious policies that we play in this country. But the most important thing that court has given me a ruling, I know that the governors will go ahead and appeal it. So we see what happens at the level of Supreme Court, because they're going to get to the Supreme Court. And I know that NIVIU is not going to also give up, if your government is not going to give up, well, if they appeal, they will also go and meet them there. At the end of the day, the overwhelming gamut of opinion or public opinion is to the effect that local governments must have financial autonomy, that they must have autonomy from the overbearing control of the of the governments. And without us achieving that, the development that we look at government level will not happen. And if it doesn't happen, we look at government level, it doesn't go to happen at the state level. All right. Okay, let me, yeah. Do you look at government that is so incapacitated that they cannot do anything? I'd like to put it this way. And I'll throw the same question to Ferri. It was Kwame Nkrumah, the founding father and first president of Ghana, which was the first country to be independent of South Africa, who said that the independence of Ghana is meaningless unless it is linked with the total emancipation of the African continent. Will these judgments have any meaning or will it be meaningless without a political autonomy or political independence or truly independent local government elections in the country? If you follow the recommendations of the 2014 National Conference, some of us have continued to climb up that the administration in Nigeria today, you know, implements. You realize that a lot of questions around what we are confronting today have been answered by those patriotic Nigerians who sat at the 2014 National Conference. Coincidentally, a lot of people who were in positions today were also part of that conference, because I recall that at the APC as a party center implementation from all the state government by the party to the conference. Part of the recommendation was to take the power, you know, of local government election away from the states. You cannot continue to have a system where the state conduct elections into the local government and have truly independent local government. Because from the point of, you know, electing candidates to the point of electing candidates, you realize that the great people who are so, you know, who have been made to be dogmatically lower and, of course, committed to them and they can do anything local government system. Let me give you an instance. The last election into the local councils in the FCTA was conducted, you know, constitutionally is the unit that conducts election into local government in the FCTA. You find the opposition party, PDP, winning election in the capital of the capital military. That is the Moudia Municipal Area Council. Where the seat of power is located, where the state passes located, where the federal ministries are located, won by the opposition PDP. And that is what, you know, to tell when you talk about conducting credible elections and independent elections into local government. But as long as these elections are conducted by this state in greater electorate, can you imagine one conduct election into 280 words, take the local government to the state, and not a single castleship seat will be won by the opposition? Either a popular opposition participation has become in our democracy. It is because these governors just sit in the comfort of their bedroom, take coffee and bread, and write names of people who become castles and chairmen, and that is all. We are not giving regard to the power of the elected candidates of their choice. Gentlemen, we have to go. We are practically appointed and not really elected by the people. Get into position. There are two G's of the establishment. So they are saying that these governors can be Thank you gentlemen. We have to go. We have to go. So, Femi Lawson, I guess what you're saying is that until we have an independent, truly independent elections in local government, this financial Tony may not achieve the desired results. I guess that's what you're saying. Okay, we have to go. Thank you very much, Mark Adebayo. Thank you much, Femi Lawson, both public affairs analysts for expert on opinion on the breakfast this morning. All right, when we come back from the break, we have more discussions ahead on the breakfast this morning. Stay with us. We'll be right back.