 Socrates here for the 21 report, Orlando, Florida 2019, the last convention of this decade. And I have the distinct pleasure to yet again interview the man himself who usually hosts this event, George Brunner. Welcome to your show again. Thank you. Let's start off. You did something terribly remarkable. One started out the very first presentation of this convention. And you also did something terribly unique. I would almost say it was a performance show rather than a presentation. And I'm struck by the Confucian phrase or I'm going to mess it up. But the issue is that if you tell me I will hear, but if you show me, I will understand. Tell me about your presentation. It was a one man play with seven distinct characters. Some of the characters were different. Some were just older versions of the first character. Started out when he was 40, the last character that I played, he was 85. And that's a nice way of saying you also had them go through a series of life challenges. And I would sit down and say, and I told you, I think the first day as well, I found it terribly painful. Not with your lack of skill or performance, but the sheer ability to convey in person, have everybody view this man go through a tragic series of events. And we felt it. I talked to others that attended and it just resonated. You can see it coming. We know it's happening. And you just absolutely made it feel us. Just sunk in. And I thought that was remarkable. The second thing you did too was you showed something. You showed how to do something. And in that sense is how to take that call, how to be there for that friend, how to help guide that. And it allowed the individuals in the audience to actually imprint on that methodology of being there for others. And you showcased it. So because it's not, obviously it was a theatrical performance. This in this particular case, you were showcasing how to do that. And I thought it was a terribly brilliant idea and a performance. So I really appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. What was the genesis for that thought? I was just brainstorming on what to do. And I don't want to do the same old, same old. One person said, people are going to remember that because it was different. And when I think back on all the speeches over the years, I don't remember all the speeches. I remember the social events. I remember there's just a handful of things that I remember, like I told you the first time I met you, I remember the sandwich thing, the making the sandwich, the act of making this, making the sandwich and the act of making the sandwich. And I can't spit out your whole outline of what you did. But I remember that one line and that just was, it was amazing. So I wanted to do something that was going to be memorable. But I wanted to teach something and I was actually wringing my hands over, you know, should I just bring out an old speech or I have so many speeches on my hard drive. And I thought I got to be fresh here. I have to do something different. And coming from a theatrical background, dramatic background, I thought, all right, this is going to be either really cool or really stupid. And I've risked a lot in my lifetime. I'm not afraid to look stupid. I don't need to have all my ducks in a row and 100% guarantees about anything in life. I've just learned that. And if anything, people will say, well, I respect the fact that he at least risked, you know, the content sucked, but I can appreciate the fact that he risked. And I was struggling with what to do. And then I believe it or not, people think I'm crazy when I say this, I stopped drinking coffee, not permanently, but I stopped drinking coffee and started drinking mushroom coffee. Yes, we've had that conversation. And there's a number of mushrooms that are neutropic in nature. In other words, they affect the brain, clarity, focus, that type of thing. And they get the attention. And they're not pharmaceutical, it's 100% natural. And they don't give you the jitters, the caffeine jitters. They don't affect you physically the way caffeine does. Yeah, the shakes and the withdrawals and the crashing that comes at the end of it. Yeah, exactly. And after five days of drinking mushroom coffee, this actually should be a commercial for mushroom coffee, but it just literally came into my head. And I do attribute it to the neutropics. It was superb. And it wasn't just an individual going through a single crisis. There was a series of them. And by all rights, if you observed the entire performance, you would say this individual had every opportunity to have a tragic life. And even though a series of tragedy befalls a character, it wasn't a tragic life. What would you attribute that to? That performance is pretty much kind of like when you don't have a main course in the freezer in your refrigerator. Like you ran out of meat, you haven't gone shopping, and you make a soup or a stew with what's in the refrigerator. You have like two stalks of celery, one tomato, like a half of an onion, you know, some rotten garlic, you know, some pastas and you kind of. So what I did was I did a I've taken all the experiences of people that I've coached over the years. And without getting without giving out any identity, I put all those things together and none of that was fiction. All of that was actually things that I've experienced with people. Okay. Some of it was autobiographical. Now, obviously I'm not 85 years old. So that part had to be that was more creative writing, so to speak. But if I had to project how that man's life would be at 85 years old, I think that's how he would have acted. But it was a story of redemption because a woman, he allowed a woman to cause him pain. He brought that on himself, he brought that on himself. Which was terribly painful to watch. You know, we've all seen the car wrecks, we're going through it again and because we're there, we're not looking away, you're compelled to watch it again. And because I do believe that the sexes are meant to be together, I'm hesitant to say things like, I don't know what I would do without you because that's viewed as weak in the man's sphere. But when an 85-year-old says that about his deceased wife, what am I going to do without you? Because you brought me out of the darkest time in my life when I least expected it. We would criticize a 40, if a guy attended who was 40 and he was saying, I don't know what I would do without her, I would just die without her. It's like, dude, you need to just grow a pair of balls, man. You have a life independent of her. You know, pull that gun out of your mouth and we'd mock the shit out of them. But you know what? I think it's OK to have, allow a spouse to have a redemptive element. There's men who never put on dress shoes before until they get married. Right, right. There's men who just wore crocs and, you know, like whatever, cut-off shorts and flip-flops for Florida, right? Yeah, and, you know, and then they're invited to her work party. And she's like, you are not going to, you know, my work party looking like that. And she dresses him up and all of a sudden he's like, I never dressed like this before. Wow, I actually feel pretty darn good. You know, and then 20 years later, he can actually say, yeah, I dressed like a bachelor before I met her. And then she added a little class to my life. It's OK to attribute some stuff to your wife, to your girlfriend, to the woman in your life. You know, I reject the fact that that's weakness. You know, sometimes our women have some great ideas for our lives. There seem to be kind of a running thing, too, is as the man is clearly shifting, it appears that more and more the content creators here are kind of centered gravity for a lot of that discourse. Yeah. And it seemed like there was this element of masculine vulnerability being presented, a more empathetic view of masculinity of men being able to not necessarily express emotions, but being command of those expressions appropriately. How what's your take on that? And what have you seen differently? Well, I think if one models vulnerability, it gives license and permission to others to do that. If you got if you have a man who is kind of a more sensitive kind of person, not everybody is a tough, ass marine. Let's get real. OK. There are some guys that are just more sensitive in nature. And the reality is when they come into the man's sphere, they feel like I've got to bottle that shit up. I don't want everyone to be, you know, Semper fi, bro, you know what I mean? Not everyone is going to be like that. And but not everyone's going to be. Do flower arranging as a hobby, either, you know what I mean? Like you got the two extremes. So I do believe that there's room for all emotional forms of expression. And for instance, I am in the hair industry. I've been berated because I'm in the hair industry. Some of the greatest designer hair designers of all time are men. Some of the greatest interior designers of all time are all men. Right. The greatest clothing designers, tailors, men, Italian, you'd go into a department store by a high end suit. It was always a little Italian guy with the tape measure around his neck in the chalk and he's measuring you up, that kind of thing. And it's not it is not the domain of the gay man anymore. And I think what's happened is that the alternative lifestyle people or the media, I should say, have allowed they've hijacked many of the creative arts. Industries and professions. You know, it's not manly. It's not manly. People would say to me, how can you trust a man who does woman's hair all day? People said that about me. Like, what kind of man is he? And I'm like, well, dude, you know, I'm being creative. I'm helping someone feel beautiful. You know, I'm solving a problem. I love posting before and after pictures of men and women that I've done. And having seen some of your professional work. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah. I mean, he's just like, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Watching someone come in with their fingers crossed, like, I hope you can do something for me. And then they leave and it's like. Wow, I just feel incredible. And it's not just the work. I mean, we're talking about a person's sense of self, how they view themselves. Sure. And it's part of their body. Yes. You are handling sculpting and they're entrusting in you, too. Sure. That is incredibly difficult to do. Yeah. So I think I think as far as the vulnerability is concerned, if people model it, it gives other people permission. I'm just going back to that. It gives other men permission to be that way. We're not all Marines. Right. That's just the way it is. When I was telling people would say to me back home, so what are you speaking on? And I would tell them, I would just give them like a little synopsis of the play. And I look up and they're crying. And then that can be contagious, too. And I'm like, don't do that because I'm like, holy shit. Now my friggin eyes are like, all right, breathe deep, George. Yeah. And but my goal was to, you know, there's the kind of speeches, presentations where at the end, it's like standing ovation. I didn't want that. What I wanted was. I think you got that in spades. Yeah. It just it was hard to swallow. It was you watching it. I think there were a number of turns that people didn't see coming, particularly the ending. Yeah. And you're just sitting here going, oh, boy, this is going to be a downer. But you sit down and go, ultimately, it wasn't. It was about human experience. We're all going to be there someday. Yeah. One way or the other. Look at the woman in our life is either going to be buried by us or we are going to bury her one or the other. And it's going to blow who the survivor is going to be blown away by that. You know? And, you know, we have to, you know, we could live in denial, you know, every, well, back when I was going gray with every new gray hair, I was in denial and then I'm just like, screw it, you know what I mean? I remember coloring my hair once, once or twice. And I'm like, oh, shit, I blew it because my hair doesn't take color well. And that's like a big thing in the media now, on commercials, men coloring their hair, coloring their beards and whatever. I get it. I understand that. People said to me, why don't you, if you add color services, color to your services at the salon, you'd make a lot more money and I just, I just don't feel authentic about it. I don't feel right about it. It's just my own personal thing. And I couldn't wait for my hair to grow out. I'm like, fuck it, I just, I can't wait to go all gray then, screw it. And there's so many things that are, they're what I call like unhappable conversations. Death is one of those things. Sometimes, sometimes our injuries and crises create a limp. We recover, but we have a little limp. Just like we have a scar from a cut or a scrape. The scar will always be there. And I think when it comes to life experiences, they create a limp in us. That's always there. It's always there. And I think it's, we have to mentally take ourselves away from there and say, all right, get up and walk, get up and walk. But I honestly believe that in our weakness comes strength. Not all the time, but there's a time and place for weakness. You can't always be the Marine. Nice. And I've heard that echoed through a couple of other speeches as well, whether it was Rich Graham's talking about combatives and it's that he learned more through his losses than his victories and looking at that. And it's not when you are defeated physically that you've lost, it's when you fail to learn or adapt or overcome, then you've been defeated. And I think your presentation and performance clearly communicated those sort of things and also started to address some of the questions of what we talked about where the unspeakable, we don't talk about death. We don't talk about surviving a spouse. And what does that look like from a man who doesn't have to be stoic and unfeeling, but truly a well-rounded, well-adjusted human being. And we just don't have a whole lot of those examples. And so that, I celebrate that and applaud you for it. Divorce can be like death for a lot of people. Yeah, yeah, in many ways it is because it's a death of a relationship. It sure is. And an investment, a future that will never be burned. And this is what gets me is someone can lose a spouse and if the person is sad for a long time after, we don't say, oh, you're a pussy, get over it, will ya? But someone goes through a divorce and we're so quick to say, suck it up, get out there again, start dating again. What are you, some kind of pussy? And we almost berate the person while they're hurting, but we wouldn't berate someone who just lost a spouse and death. I think divorce is like death. It doesn't matter, I don't care what anyone says. I've heard some people say, sometimes death would have been more preferable because there's a- There's an end. There's an end. It's finite. Whereas divorce, it's a tearing. You know what I mean? Death is chop, done. Divorce is annoying at your soul and it changes us in a way that we don't like. And what we do to recover from that, I did not see how I contributed to the demise of my marriage 16 years ago. I didn't see that for literally eight years. Eight years. It was all her fault. I contributed to that. It does take two. It does take two people, just like it takes two people to succeed. It takes two people to fail. And I think when our eyes are opened to the role that we play in our successes and failures, just life, we just live with more clarity, I believe. Yeah. What was that process of evolution where you actually became aware of that? Was it a finite thing? Or was it something that gradually took place? What was that evolution? I attend a lot of networking groups. Okay. I'm a social guy back home. Business card exchanges, that kind of thing. Meeting at a bar of just 200 people, everyone's got business cards. So what do you do? I don't know, what do you do? And you get to know people and you build your network. And I'll never forget, I went to a meetup, it was an entrepreneur's meetup that I really loved going to. And I remember we would do kind of like a round robin and introduce ourselves. And I would say, hi, my name is George Bruno. I'm a divorced father of three. And, you know, because the facilitator of the group would say, we're gonna go around, tell us your name a little bit about yourself. And, you know, it was like a one minute elevator speech kind of thing. And after one of the meetings, the facilitator of the group, a brilliant man by the name of Rick Tashman said to me, he says, George, I just want to talk about something. I said, what's that? Why do you always refer to yourself as a divorced man? I said, well, I'm divorced. And he says, how long ago was it? I told him and he says, you're a single man. You're single now. You're wearing, you're choosing to wear a big D on your chest. And he was a mirror to me. And he showed me, take the D off your chest. I'm a proud father of three. Right. No longer a married father. I'm a proud father of three. And so it was a simple narrative change? That was it. Literally, that was it. He helped me rewrite the script and everything opened up at that point, changed. And how can somebody who's not going through a divorce, can they rewrite their own narrative scripts to have similar effects in life? Yeah, there's a thing in psychology. They used to call it psychodrama, which has now like a derogatory term. I'm tired of your psychodrama. But literally there was a form of therapy called psychodrama where you would literally rehearse the reactions that you want to do that you never did. Which imprints the behavioral patterns of success. So you rehearse your responses, pre-plan your responses to people who would normally trigger you. And I literally had to go through that. And that's how I changed. And obviously if you're brought here, your success, and you clearly don't self-identify as being divorced anymore. Because you don't hear, presenting that up front. Not at all, not at all. Not at all. I feel that when I'm talking to a divorced man, if this was a divorced men's group, I would say, gentlemen, I was divorced, you know, like 16 years ago, I was where you are. That adds a little street cred to you, to the divorced men. In a mixed crowd, no one cares if I'm divorced. Nobody cares. So I realized I was doing it to meet some weird need of mine. It wasn't me informing other people that I'm divorced does nothing for me. I was doing it for me, in a weird way. Was it an ability to hold on to what was lost, that last vigil of the remnant of the relationship? I think so, yeah, I think so, absolutely. Yeah. Because it's interesting, I have a friend that was widowed. Yeah. And kind of similar thing, it's still living that. Yeah. And you almost sit down and say, what is the difference between being widowed and divorced and carrying it on? And it's clear he's not in a position to move his life beyond the death of a spouse. Yeah. And in some ways it's tragic, but at the same time, I know it's a way of keeping that love alive and he just wants to have that fidelity to that relationship. He very well may take that one to the grave with him, I'm not sure, but it was a tragic event. And we had an attendee fairly recently, who loses his wife in a car accident. Yes, sure. And I don't want to say watching that, because clearly nobody was there, but maintaining contact and seeing everybody pull together to help and see him move through that. And he talks about that. I'm particularly grateful, one that he was able to develop that network of people to be there for him, but then to him sharing and opening that experience up, because again, we don't talk about death or surviving a spouse, we don't expect it. And I think he's gonna be just an absolute exemplar of caring not only his life for, but being there for his two children. How timely was the universe in having him develop these relationships two weeks before his wife died? Incredible. Yeah, it was unbelievable, because I couldn't believe it's like, is this the same guy? And he clearly was, yeah. I mean, it was providential. It blew my mind. How alone would he feel if he didn't have at least 30, 40, 50 guys send them emails, text them, whatever. Yeah, immediately, right. Yeah. I knew a woman, I dated a gal who many years ago, a Greek woman whose father passed away and her mother was living and the mother would wear black in mourning. And the father died in the summer. And the mom wore black. And the tradition in their culture was to wear black until the end of the calendar year. Okay. December 31st, you ditch the black clothes. January 1st, you put on colors again. December 31st passed, January 1st of the new year, the mom reached into her closet and pulled out a black dress. And she wore black till the day she died, lived another 20 years. And that was a choice. She chose to stay in mourning and visually signify that. And we need mourning. And I like the tradition of wearing it, you know, wearing black until the end of the year. There, you know, it's a specified mourning period. And there are some people that I would imagine would be like, man, I can't wait to start wearing colors again. Can't wait to get rid of these black clothes. And I thought it was fascinating if the mom chose black and wore black every day till the day she died. Very interesting. Not unheard of though. I mean, my family culture, it wasn't to the end of the year, it was one year to the anniversary of the death. Isn't that something? Yeah, and it was not uncommon to find a widow remaining in mourning permanently. That was not just till death to its part, but till they both left this earth. And I think there was some richness to that. You know, I kind of joke that if I were to die suddenly, I would want Mary Francis to do the same. And I'm not too unsure that I'm not ingest being serious. So I could feel that. And I sit down and look at it and go, I can almost see doing the same thing in return. Is it, I don't ever want to be put in that position. And it's hard to kind of even contemplate that. It's almost, yeah, and but it's one of those things you say, it'd be better to contemplate it in advance than not. Almost like getting your will prepared or your state's, you know, in well in advance so you know what it is and say, hey, let's have these discussions as well, so. Yeah. Okay, let's change this subject just a little bit. It has been only a few months since we last spoke in Poland. Yes. In Warsaw. What have you been doing and how have things changed since Warsaw? Warsaw was really interesting. Just being with people who are Westernized but not Americanized was interesting. Freedom loving people, some of the conversations that you and I had about the people of Central Europe, some of your historical contexts that you created in your videos and has made a lot of that clear. You talked about it today in Red Man Group. Yes, yes. Which was just phenomenal. You don't realize that, you don't realize this kind of stuff until you go to a land like that. It's different. It's different. I can't wait to go back. Right. I can't wait to go back. It was interesting being with the crowd of attendees who were Westernized but not Americanized. Right, and a huge difference in that regard. Yeah, yeah. And mostly everybody speaking with accents, broken English and so forth and trying really hard to speak the best English and apologizing for their bad English. Right, right. And it was charming. It was just really neat, really neat. But people are people no matter where you go. And it just, that reinforced it to me. That trip really reinforced the fact that people, men are men no matter where you go. Right. The same needs, the same desires, the same fears, same aspirations, yeah. I was surprised coming back. It's one thing to study history, to read about it. It's another to put it in physical context. To see the land, to see the people, to smell the air, to see the things that are not covered in the history books. Yeah. The other stories. And I don't want to belabor that too extensively but then to take that experience and come back and see the same things I was seeing prior to leaving and realizing they don't take nearly the same precedence that I would have thought. And even though some of my commentary during the Red Man group was, I do have some very, very significant fears about what I'm seeing taking, at least going forward. The bigger arching picture, I'm much more assured about. And particularly seeing a nation who was able to adeptly handle far greater adversity than what we're currently facing. So that gave me great hope. But I'll be honest too, coming back to the States, I was certainly depressed. It took me about four days to have a decent meal. We were spoiled shitless. That the food was just vibrant, fresh, flavorful, plentiful. And we were treated with such grace and generosity and hospitality. And I loved to cook. And how I just couldn't bring myself to cook. I just sort of like. I didn't feel, it was weird. Like a lot of times in the States, you feel like the hospitality class of people, housekeepers, maids, food service people, you know, in the States, they are, I don't wanna say the lower jobs. And many people act like it's the lower job. In Poland, the housekeeper smiled at you. The food service people were half. It was, it's almost as if, like I couldn't tell the difference between a manager and a housekeeper. And they all worked with pride. They did. And I would say even the housekeepers, it was almost like they were concierge staff on rotation. Yes. You know, that they were ambassadors to their own country, to a hotel, the company. Yes. And you didn't sense that, say, I'm the individual cleaning in a room and it's a menial task. Don't see me. I'm the invisible party. Right. There was none of that. Right. And even seeing here today, you know, you look at it, it's not the same. Yeah. It's not the same. It was a historic reminder. Yeah. And I'm very much looking forward to going back. I'm very much looking forward to going back. I chatted with Stefan Molinu about this. I said, you know, there's a reason why we didn't do the convention in the UK or Germany or Sweden. Right. There's a reason why Poland was chosen and how appropriate was Poland to have our convention in Europe. Like, wow, the European edition was held in Poland and will be held in Poland. Again. Yeah. I'm very much looking forward to crack up. Yeah. So, very neat. How have you seen the manager shift in the two and a half, three months since Poland? Have you noticed a changing impact? I think I had to see what was happening here to this event. I had to see the faces of the people who were attending here because in my more doubtful times, I really thought, I don't know if we can pull this off now because the doomsayers were saying 21 is done. Right. Yeah, willful presentation. Yeah. Yeah. And on the contrary, major success. Men happy to be here. Firm handshakes, hugs, embraces. How many times were people? I mean, there were more applause, more hand clapping going on during this event than other events. Right. And I would say the mood is completely different as well. 100%. That it's not just pessimistic. I've gotten some salt in the wound. I'm having to take stringent medicine, those sort of things. There was none of this feeling that you're being force-fed medicine. It'll make it better. There wasn't cod liver oil of the manuscript. That seems to be completely gone. And it seems to be everybody much more upbeat, positive, and this element of ability of control. Rather than you're subject to a fate. Who was it in the last second Red Man group? I don't know if it was Steph on that side of this. Symmecism is the little sister of despair. And we got rid of the despair and got rid of the cynicism. Symmecism as well. Right, yeah. I honestly feel this was a super positive event. It just, it feel, you know what? I don't miss the splinter that I remove from my finger. When the splinter is taken out, I feel better. I'm like, oh, I wish that splinter was back at now. I can't wait for it to get out. That's how I feel. I feel like the splinter was removed. The thing that was causing pain was removed. And I felt that it seems to be a significant movement. For example, historically I was involved in the pickup industry dealing with that and the origins of that. And then we've clearly with the Manusphere and the Red Pill, it's intergenerational, I say intergenerational, intersexual politics and dynamics. And there was a real focus in on that for a considerable amount of time. And it seems like we're moving well past that into just not only elements of father led families, but multi-generational arts, the patriarchal element. And then all the other subjects that come with that. And I'm also trying to really fascinated by the other spheres of influences, whether it's Rich Graham talking about combatives and the ability to have a crucible of a man's life or Jack Donovan weaving similar type things and narratives and also Ken Curry when he was talking about Iron John and those sort of narrative. And there's an element that I found terribly fascinating that trying to link the bubbles together. And I know it wasn't necessarily intentional by the speakers. It just happens because everyone's thinking along similar lines and projecting similar ways and bringing their background and influences to that. And I knew you set that off. And I thought that was really incredible. And it almost seemed like it was orchestrated, but it wasn't. So what other themes have you seen that have run concurrently through this convention compared to the one a year ago, last October? Well, we are changing. We always change. I mean, in the past, it was always blame everyone else for your problems. One of my favorite quotes was Louis Smedes who said, I've been married to five women. My wife has been married to five different men. And all of those men were me. Stating that, we go through changes, too. It's just not her. She's not at the wheel, just yanking my chain for 30 years. I'm changing, too. She's had to put up with some of my crap as well. I'm not always the right one. I'm the leader of the family, but the reality is I make mistakes. And it's funny. You don't get Ken Curry to come out of his den very often on Twitter. When I posted that Louis Smedes quote, he goes, I never do anything on Twitter. And he just resonated with that. He thought that was powerful. And he's a big fan of some monk, or some brother, or some guy in a religious order, friar, or something like that, that talks about order, disorder, and reorder. He talks about that. And I think, man, did we experience that. Yes, yes. On a grand scale. And I think what we're seeing is the consolidation of that prior to the New Spring, the resurrection of ideas, of faith, of family, of virtue. And it's not being mocked. No, no. It's not being mocked. And what I really appreciate is that the content providers are leading by example, that there's no longer this dissonance of congruence, that they're living authentic, truthful lives by presenting that to the audience. Well, we have now we have doers, not just sayers here. In the past, we had nothing but a bunch of anime profile pictures. And like I said, people here that I met who followed me, who've been commenting on things. And I see them for the first time. I'm like, wow, OK, cool. So that's the guy that's been commenting on my stuff. All right, that's cool. But this move of people actually meeting out and about, as opposed to just hanging out on a forum and getting in fights on a forum, that you would never get into it really. And it's almost like they're jostling each other on purpose. That becomes the combat of sports. Instead of an octagon, I'm going to a forum. And that's where they're flexing muscle. It's ridiculous. So I'm tired. I gladly say goodbye to all the keyboard jockeys. Tired of it. Sick of it. And I thought that was interesting, too, is that we've integrated for the first time this year the workshops. And initially, they were kind of an experimental thing. They went for about 45 minutes to an hour. And in this particular event, all the workshops have been going for two hours at a time. And it is amazing that there's not a lack of content being delivered. So you have a content creator presenting for 45 minutes to an hour, and then following up with another two-hour workshop with pure engagement with the attendees. If I am not doing a workshop, I'm attending a workshop, I'm enjoying them as well. So there's this assumption that there's the guys that are on stage and the attendees. And I'm sitting amongst the attendees in the workshops. I'm enjoying them as well. So I will defend those workshops forever. We made the right move. They are powerful, more real. It's different. When you're standing on stage, you got the bright lights in your eyes. You can't see anyone. You might see the first row or two of men. Right. You can't see really beyond that. Yeah, exactly. In these little breakout sessions, you're five feet away from the guys that are listening to you. You're looking them in the eye. And it's not the entire audience. They have at least three workshops going simultaneously. I love it. So the attendees are forced to choose. Something for everybody. And I hate that. Because what invariably happens is I want to see all three. And you're forced to choose. And then the other thing I thought was really brilliant as a default to this element is that the concentration of individuals is smaller. So between the content creator and the number of attendees is dramatically increased so that you have true one on one engagement, that you have it's vibrant. It's active. It's involved. It's not something that you just sit down and someone's just given another two-hour presentation. It's questions, answers, people interjecting, round robins, further discussions, other people sharing. It's very, very powerful to see that sort of movement and engagement on a singular topic. I agree on that. And we're having those every day. Every day on top of the presentations. Wonderful. Dinners and get-togethers. You know what, it's going, if you have nothing but speakers all day long, that's kind of tiring. I mean, let's get real. It's tiring. Just, all right, 15-minute water break, come on back and sit for another hour. I mean, that is tiring. It's smart because it's the law of diminishing returns. Honestly, by the last speaker of the day, if it's all speakers all day long, by the last speaker of the day, everyone's delirious. You know, I'm thinking about dinner or, you know, getting a cocktail or something like that. The workshops do break things up. It's smart adult education. Yeah. And the interesting thing, too, is that when we talk about it, it's not just a content creator bringing value. Yeah. That the attendees now are, I don't want to say obligated, but they're inspired to bring their perspective and valued for doing so. It's not the Socrates show. It's the George show. Right, right, right. Strong interaction. Mm-hmm, yeah. And I don't think you would see that in a different organization with the similar type of approach. In fact. And I've seen it professionally. I've seen it in different venues where you have the workshops and it's just another, but a continuation of a presentation. It's smart learning. That's what it is. Yeah. How do you see things going forward? I mean, we have next year, we have a patriarch and then we have 22 conventions simultaneously. That subject alone we could probably spend some time on. We have Krakow following that in Poland and then we have another 21 convention in late October, a year from now. It seems like I just got back from Poland. I'll be honest with you. When I was in Poland, I was saying it seems like I just got back from Patriarch. You know. Yeah, right, right. And think about it, four events in a year, I remember sitting, we were at that French restaurant on the Monday night in Warsaw. And I said, we have another three months. We're gonna be, be doing, we're gonna be back again another three months. And it just like it was all, and one of the things that I did was, I started tweeting and not so much tweeting, but in the private groups. I said, you know, let's, let's focus more on getting asses in the seats. Men don't get help from tweets and online interaction. They get help when they, when their ass is sitting in a seat, when they're interacting with other men at an event. An event is transformative. So, you know, we're gonna put this event to rest tomorrow and then the countdown begins. Yeah, literally, yeah. Literally, it begins. And that five months is, six months is gonna be, it's gonna fly. It's gonna fly. Yeah. Before you know it, we're gonna be back here in Orlando with Patriarch in 22. Yeah, I'm gonna be very, very intrigued to see how that turns out. I'm filled with optimism. But it will be intriguing to see how it truly unfolds. You know, an event for women presented by men. And I know there's, that can be triggering for a lot of people. I love it because that, it's newsworthy. It's very newsworthy. It is, and we also know the alternative isn't really working for women. When women talk to themselves, are you getting the results you want? And so maybe it is time that men have a voice and provide and maybe the most, quote, empathetic sex needs to do a little listening. I think that any publicist will tell you, wow, that's newsworthy. That's something that, like I think we could possibly end up having more press passes given out for that than any other event, I'll be honest with you. It's controversial as hell. It's national newsworthy. I mean, if Anthony wants, I mean, he could end up on national networks talking about this. I can see that happening very, very readily. Absolutely. Very readily. The morning shows, you know, that sort of. 100%. You know, what comes, I mean, it's, Good morning, Chicago. Good morning, Orlando. Good, like, whatever, yeah. And to know that that's just a few months away. I mean, it is, it hasn't sunk in from me. I don't know about you yet, but. Well, and then for us as speakers, we have to come up with two presentations. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, I would hate to do the same one twice. Yeah. Yeah, that would be a complete waste. Exactly. Yeah. And if I thought, you know, this year was busy, you know, when we talk, you know, the analogy I give is I try to tell people it's like running hurdles. You take two steps, you jump. You take two steps, you jump. You take two steps, you jump. This, in this case, it's just, it's a continuation of that. And it seems to be accelerating. Yeah. But at the same time, I think there's an urgency to that. Yeah. Because it's also equally needed. You know, we have a run up to an election in 2020, late November. Think about it, yeah. I just, there are so many things in play on this. You just kind of wonder how all this is going to dovetail together. How is it going to fit? How is it going to roll out? And how is it going to be perceived? Yeah. So I think we have a hell of a year coming up. It's going to be a trip. Four events in one year. Wow. Three events made my head spin. Four is going to be significant. Yeah. It really is. And then with the new guys that we added, just, it's just like adding another ingredient in a recipe with some of the new faces. Right. Fascinating. Mm-hmm. Stefan Molinou, who, I mean, oh, he's too controversial. He was excellent. He was good. He's only controversial if you don't know. Yeah, exactly. And if you're willing to listen to the reputation others have written. Yeah. You know, and I would hope people would treat me with kinder fare, but clearly he's been handled fairly roughly. Yeah, well, absolutely. This young man, Stefan Arneo, what a pleasant surprise that was. Man, he had my attention for the whole thing. I was like, wow. He knew his craft, didn't he? He did. Yes. Didn't stutter once. I mean, it was just, you know, and that PowerPoint was just like he was on it. Yep. And not only that, he sawed us out, which I found remarkable. Yeah. Anthony didn't go out recruiting him. It was through mutual association. Yeah. He saw the work, understood the work we were doing and asked the question, how do I get involved? He would ask a question, how many, blah, blah, blah, and then he'd say yes or yes. Yeah, right. He wouldn't even allow you to say no. And I thought, I just, I thought that was great. Yep. I thought that was great. So what a nice, fresh, it was a fresh voice. Different. Yep. Completely different, just totally, I had no idea what he was gonna do. Zero clue. Zero clue. And when I was sitting near our New York Times journalist, I said, what did you think? She goes, he was compelling. Yeah. I said, okay, cool. Interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it was interesting watching her behavioral language as she was listening to this. You know, the other one I found terribly fascinating was the Dutch film crew, the documentary crew that came in. Yes. And they were here multiple days. And it is very clear with my discussions with them that this was not the event they thought they were gonna cover. Yeah. And I thought that was truly remarkable. Yeah. And I asked, and I go, how has this changed what you thought, you know, the narrative script or the story? Mm-hmm. And he goes, I don't know. We haven't even started putting it together. Yeah. And I thought, that's fantastic. And, you know, they sat in film for three days, content after content. Are they gone now? I would have to look, I believe so. I don't recall seeing them, so I think they are. But clearly it was something that they were surprised by, they were pleased by, and anxious to start cutting into that. I'm digging the fact that we had press here like that. And I think that could be something really cool for the future. Mm-hmm. You know, we have five months to really get the press involved in the 22 convention. Okay. Yep, yeah, very much so. And that can be a really big thing for us. Yeah. So we're coming to the end of our time. Any last parting thoughts? Onward. No. Onward. Fantastic. This has been George Bruna, the Sultan of Silver. Once again, this is Socrates signing off for the 21 report. I will see you next time, next year, with a brand new report. Thank you for joining. What was your experience so far with the 21 convention? Oh, I was dead, I was dead. Professional, all across the board. Really good energy with a lot of people. And I just like it because it's a very positive direction. This, George, this has been a first class event. It's fantastic. You guys are in a really tight ship. I've been to a lot of conventions over the course of my business career. And I can tell when things are well run and when things aren't. And this is a very well run operation. I was very impressed. It's pretty incredible to see where Anthony's brought it. Especially from last year, which was my first year here. And to see the upgrades he's made, it's been incredible. I've got my notebook and with every speaker, I've written down about two or three lines under each of the speakers of just the key prime stuff that I got. That's good, that's good. It's very surreal, man. I'm really enjoying it. I'm happy to live in such an era where such a thing like this is possible. I have never seen a group of guys like this. A group of 200 men were focused, squared away, working on their values. Just never met a bigger group of wonderful guys. Kind of neat because I've been to a fair amount of conventions in my day, but you never see one where the guy's like, here you can just see Ed Latimore talking to Tanner about boxing. You just sit down and then you tell your boxing experiences. Everybody's kind of pinging off each other. It's nice. It has been fantastic. And it's been four days of guys all on the same page, working in the same direction. Fascinating meeting some of the people, hearing their stories. Yep, you've got people traveling from other parts of the world to come here just to see some of the speakers. That's amazing. The thing is impressed me. Everybody here is very serious. They're taking it close to their heart. What a great convention. Thanks, George.