 this is interview. Are you seeking for the courage and the knowledge to make a difference in this country? Today is a program with a difference. I welcome you to this interview. We have special guests put together modern 50 years of experience, working in corrections, community corrections, as well as institutional corrections. My two guests today would include the director of corrections, Mr. Hilary Herman, and a well-known Caribbean's world's social scientist, Dr. Nils Chaitan. Dr. Chaitan will tell you more about himself but I want to let you know that in this country as we look at tackling crime, there's one thing that we must do. If there's one that should unite us, we have one common enemy and in our diversity we need to unite. I welcome you to interview and now I turn to the gifted Dr. Nils Chaitan. Dr. Nils Chaitan, welcome to solution. Thank you very much Mr. Smith. It's my pleasure to be here. You know, we're all part of the Windward Islands. I was born in Grenada of course, the spice island of the world folks and I bring that spice with me by the way. However, I grew up much of my adult life in Toronto, Canada for last 39 years. Met the love of my life there by the way and she's part of what I do. We are social interventionists and we are crime reduction specialists. What we do is to create a systematic method of dealing with crime. You know, most of the time and I have with me, you know, sitting right by me here, the director of corrections and we sometimes think well crime has to be the way we deal with it. Let's lock them up, let's take them to court, let's put them away, right? Not many people look at the underlying roots of crime. That's a very good thought. We'll come to that in a minute. Mr. Homan, just before Dr. Chaitan tell us about his background, just think of yours as well that you want to share with us. But Dr. Chaitan, tell us a little more about your professional background, your training. I know you are social scientist. What does that mean? Well the truth about I have a PhD in social and behavioral sciences. So it's a wide spectrum, by the way. We are socially behavioral, that's almost everything between the that is a crime, that's social dysfunctions, with addictions at every level. However, my company is called Motivate for Change International. Sounds good. Right? It's also Toronto, they had quoted in Toronto and right now we were in a Saturday office in St. George's, Grenada, so we could respond to the Caribbean. Three years ago, we were asked by the government of St. Kitsunevious, they had a very, very high spiking in homicide. As a matter of fact, they had the highest homicide rate in the world, of course, per capita, per capita. And so we are called in there to do what we can to engage a framework, right? An overarching framework because Mrs. Smith, the Caribbean has wonderful, brilliant people. And I do not come to the Caribbean believing that I'm the answer. On that note, hold that thought. Mr. Herman, you and one time yourself as the president of the Prison Association in the Caribbean, before you tell us more about it, tell us a little more about yourself presently and who you are and tell us what we need to remember about Mr. Hilary Herman. Well, thanks for having me, Mr. Smith. Of course, my name is Hilary Herman. I'm the director of corrections of the bodily correctional facility. I returned home to St. Lucia in 2002 to open the newly commissioned prison, the bodily correctional facility. I am a soldier at heart. I was retired from the United States Army after 27 years of service. Corrections has been my life over the last 30 years. As you know, corrections is a science and it works every time it's tried in all the right forms. We've attempted to do this in St. Lucia. However, we've had many restrictions, as you know, most of it has been financial. We bodily has not met half of its peak performance. It just has not gotten there. There is so much more that can be done. In spite of that, we've had some very good success stories and we're hoping that that can continue. Okay, wonderful. Now, we have met this handsome gentleman. Yes. Everybody has fell in love with him. You know what I mean, right? Yes. What do you think about Dr. Chaitan and what he brings to the table? Dr. Chaitan, over the last six days, I mean, he's an amazing guy. He has brought some very, very positive initiative to us and I think if we can just capture some of what he has suggested or some of what his own experiences has given him to apply it here in St. Lucia, I think we can reduce the crime rate. Yes. Dr. Chaitan, you, besides Mr. Hroman, you met other persons in St. Lucia. Dr. Alfred, Dr. King, well, I happened to get to know you and of course, you and I go way back in terms of conversation. What do you think about our professionals, Mr. Hroman, those that you have encountered and what do you think our educational equity offers in regards to cooperating and collaborating with you? Okay, first of all, I must say I met some powerful people here. And you know what, listening to the resumes and CVs is one thing. 30 years is great, 27 years in the US Army is great, but meeting the person and I'm sure it's almost the same year, you know, it's a reciprocal year because you might have seen my CV, and we spoke so many times on the WhatsApp, but meeting the person and hearing the person. And I think more than anything else, last night in our consultation, Dr. King is a guy I met and I liked quite a bit, right? And to hear Dr. King give his own personal story, how this thing appeals to him and what it causes him, how it affects his emotions, and not only that, his life moving forward. I mean, he said he was an arrogant doctor, he was an arrogant doctor, until this same situation visited his home. While you're on that, you also had the privilege and the opportunity of meeting the Prime Minister. I did. Our Prime Minister is very passionate about crime reduction. What was the experience coming from Grenada, Canada, and you know, you have met many Prime Ministers as well. What stands out for you? First of all, the Honourable Prime Minister, the Satan is a cool guy. He's a cool guy, right? Very warm, very warm. In our meeting, I was sitting in one chair away from him. I felt very relaxed. He appeared to be someone who was very accommodating. And you know, Mrs. Smith, many times when you meet a head of state, they want to give you, oh, I know, I know, I heard about you five minutes and you're gone. This gentleman sat down. This gentleman looked me in the eye. As I spoke to him, I showed him a process. Of course, I introduced to him our stop and think concept. And you're getting to that in a while. And he left there with his hand filled, right? Now, of course, he also spoke about some of the, some of the deterrents or some of the challenges that would make what we bring possible. But I said to him, Mr. Prime Minister, if there is a need, we, once there is a need, it's going to happen. Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, about this time, we'll get ready to take a break. But just before I leave, I want to let you know that this past weekend, we had a few programs. We'll ponder on it. As well as we have some discussions on some plans going forward. We'll look at it. But before we look at this, we look at the root causes of crime. Somebody's wondering why is crime continuing to escalate? Why we cannot get a hold on crime? And then you will give your impressions and then we'll take it from there. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, please stay tuned. Mr. Chaitan, Dr. Chaitan and Mr. Hooman, many people start and they stop. I have to understand the difference between being interested and being committed. When you're interested in any topic, any subject, it takes a lot of your thinking, perhaps, and your emotions to get involved. But not until you take action, you're not committed. You're not committed. You can do all the talk, have the right words. But we have taken action over the weekend. That's gone. And we had the opportunity and I'm a very action-oriented individual. For me, it's a good thing to have conversation, but I'm more practical. Let us just reflect on what took place over the weekend. You had the great opportunity of going to the prison and to participate in power ground worship, power ground sports, right? Mr. Hooman, you had front row seat, if I may add. You actually saw what took place. Considering what you saw, what you heard, is there any value that you think that was added? Or how should we continue to engage inmates even when they are incarcerated? The truth about it is that in casters in someone and just leaving them on their own, it's punitive, but it's also detrimental to the person's health. Whether it's the psychosocial health or even the physical health. People that, and I said this morning, people that we put in cuffs, we restrain, that's the middle word, is because somebody was not able to restrain them before. We had parents talking to them, teachers talking to them, trying to restrain them, but human beings don't like the freedom to be taken away, whatever they perceive that to be. So once rules and laws cut your freedom, that's what we proceed, right? So they don't want to stop until they're forced to stop. Now when they're forced to stop, because we are trying to get through to them, son, sit down and let me talk to you. Student, come and ask them to talk to you, and they see all these things as negative. But now, when the judicial system stops you, you are stopped. Now what do we have? A captive audience. We couldn't talk to them before. So what the correction facility needs is a strong social rehabilitative peace, right? That will get to the heart of these people. But not only that, because sometimes, Mr. Herman, as professionals, what we bring is the theories that we study. Look at what we did this weekend. We shared the life of two creatures, right? A bird and a caterpillar. And look at how they got the message. Look how they got the message. They applied it, right? When I got them back to Sunday, they were hugging me. Why? They don't know me, but we got into the heart. And so every time we incarcerate, we need to have a hard-gripping component of social change, rehabilitation, that will work along. Otherwise, we're exporting back to the community as criminals. And I'm sure you have in your full set kit of social medicine, you do have some prescriptions whether it's stop and think, or whether it's either a program, or whether it's the making and the breaking of a criminal, and that which perhaps I can't remember now, you'll tell us a little more about that. But Mr. Herman, how important it is for the community to join you whilst the individuals, whilst we have the young men or the ladies in prison? How important it is to be part of that, is it? The reintegration piece, which is a missing link in our bodily correctional facility there, that doesn't exist. And where it shows itself is when we have 47 individuals returning to the facility between March 26th and July 30th, with 47 individuals returning to our facility, which means that they've been to bodily at least twice. Okay. So in not preparing them for the world outside, there's no support system that helps them, there's no guidance, chances are the cycle continues. And that's where your organization, such as back on track, can be very instrumental in assisting these inmates in reintegrating back into our society. Okay. Normalization, there's a way to deprisionize anyone. First of all is to have the person thinking outside and bringing the outside on the inside, so that the individual can feel part of society. In your training and experience, what are the best activities in your mind, Dr. Chaitan, that will be suited to help inmates in having an appreciation of being incarcerated because most guys are angry with themselves that they got caught. Right? So how do you get them to understand that they must accept that there is punishment and there are principles, but whilst they embrace that, they must look outside. What process? Yeah. Well, and I think I really, I really demonstrated it with that of the caterpillar. Right. That of the caterpillar. What is the caterpillar doing? The caterpillar is not yet a butterfly. It's in the maturing stage. So when you see the caterpillar is destructive, it's a menace to society. You know he's growing. He's not there. But what we do, we treat people that are still maturing as if that's a final product. Right, right, right. Now these people would not go in a position to whether we would get what we want to give in part to them so they could mature, we're wronged. So sometimes the cell becomes a cocoon. Yes. Right. And like I say in the stop and think, stop yourself before you are stopped. Okay. Because you will be stopped. One year. Stop and think while you're outside. Right. Use your brain while you're outside. Somebody comes in your face and curse your mother and want to hurt you. Right? Or whatever it is, disrespect you. You could do two things. You could go for it, right, because you're not stopping and thinking about what your consequence is. Or you could stop yourself and walk away. No, if you go for it, you're still going to be stopped. We will stop you. Right, right. And then now you go in there. It's a time when you're going to sit down and say, oh my God, how did I end up here? Right, how did I end up here? Now, hopefully that the cell is not going to be not just punitive, but it'll be empowering. Right? Just like the caterpillar stays inside there and when it breaks out, what is he? A beautiful butterfly. A changed person. Right. Now let's move away from being descriptive. Let's look into a prescriptive approach. And we're looking now, we're opening now your first aid social scientist. Come on. What is really the routes of crime that you really want to speak about? I know there are about 12 of them in there. So give us a sense as to what they can see. Okay. I'm going to make this, I wouldn't go into the 12 routes of crime. That's too clinical for me. That's going to take the rest of the evening. We don't have time for that, right? However, one of the things that drive crime is our ability, our inability to control our impulse. Okay. You see, God gave us big brains and accept you are mentally retarded, something like that. It works. Right. We know what we should do. Right. But our impulses drive us, our triggers I just say drive us. Right? So what I have done in my toolkit, you asked me and I have a chair with me. Okay. You know, you've seen it over and over, right? There is the poster, right? It's simple, Mr. Smith. It's simple. And people think that could not be the answer. Trust me, this is the answer. Okay. Well, talk to our audience. This is the folks out there. This is the answer not to just commit a crime. Why call a crime? Crimes in the boardroom. Crimes committed by the boss. You see, sometimes we would have done well and succeeded in life. But if, and when we reach a certain height, we plateau out and we think we're in our comfort zone, that point in time, we're not thinking too much because I've reached there. That's the time we're most vulnerable. Right? So what, what do I say? Always. Notice what I said, Mr. Smith. He didn't say sometimes because the time you didn't stop and think, you may have to pay. Right. Always stop and think before you proceed. Now, this simple concept as simple as it seems, right? We go through the rudiments of it. We've created a psychological past mechanism, right? So when you're tempted, when your impulse is driving, when your heart is going because somebody's in your face, think about your plans, man. Think about that you, you doing a bachelor's degree. Think about that you're doing CXC's or think about that you have on, if you don't think about your plans, think about where you're going or your loved ones. Or your loved ones. Or your loved ones. Your wife, your children. That's correct. That's correct. Your mother. At least your mother. Your mother, right? Think about it and say, boy, you know what? Let me walk away from that. No, saying it is easy, boy, this thing is hard to do. This thing is so hard to do, but that's why we come with Project Stopper thing. Interesting, Lucia. We want to, so we want to give it to your, your inmates so much, right? So they understand that they have the power to decide differently, right? And so it doesn't just come with this. It comes with a manual. Parents, parents and teachers, you come with a manual. Good. We will leave that in the, in the, in the prisons. And they could go through it, concerts, go through it and help them master the technique. Because trust me, saying it is easy. Right. Doing it is difficult. Yes. Before you tell us about the making and the breaking of a criminal, Mr. Herman, there are many programs that one could get off the net and there are many things that one could look at in terms of managing an institution. What can you say besides CXC certificates, among other things? What, if you had the power and you had the resources, would you embrace what Dr. Chaitan is advancing or what, what would you like to see happen going forward? Absolutely. What Dr. Chaitan is talking about, I mean, it is a program that can be very successful in our institution. Okay. One of our restrictions or our needs is the, is assessment of inmates. Okay. That right now, we do not have. And that's a barrier. Right. We need to assess the inmates and psychologists, we need that desperately. Right. And until that is done, we don't have a true picture. Okay. Of what the sentence management should be like. Okay. The inmates should be assessed at day one. And from the very day he comes into our institution, his sentence should be managed. Right. Right. Until the day he leaves. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that is a missing link. And on that note, diagnosing a situation, right, the EDA program, right, what comments do you have based upon what Mr. Herman is saying? Okay. How are you going to diagnose? Well, first of all, I want to applaud what you're saying, because clinical psychology is important there. Absolutely. Because if we come into run programs there, you want to know, you want to know how it's affecting, how it's impacting the lives of criminals. So that when they have a hearing, you could actually say, you could write a report, for example, and say, well, that's where they were. And that's where they are. Right. Now with the EDA, the EDA brings, it's a framework. Right. Right. And as I said, we meet all these brilliant people here in St. Lucia. But the EDA gives, it gives an overarching framework. Like I said, like I said on the first day we came in, it's like a filing cabinet with four drawers so that we could put all the special interests together so that we are not ricocheting, bullets ricocheting all over the place. Right. Now the D, it's important to diagnose. Right. It's important because we are treating, couldn't you imagine, Mr. Smith, going to a doctor, saying, doc, my belly is hurting me. Right. And before a doctor draw your blood and put a stethoscope on you, he's writing a prescription. You know what I mean? That's ridiculous. The man's going to kill you, right? The man's going to kill you, right? So it's important to diagnose this, but it's very important. And so what we do, what we do in the diagnosis is that we bring stakeholders together. People from that, that are professionals in the line, teachers, clergy, law enforcement, you say Tutmude? Tutmude. Wow. Wow, I got my past word for it. Tutmude, right? You bring them together and then we look at what, at some of the generic roots of Kremlin valets. Right. So for example, law enforcement would say, you know, Dr. Chattanoff is 12 roots that you've shown us here. This one is ours. This one is germane to us. Right. Then we'll build a strategy for it. So that strategy now is being used by all the professions within that interest group. Yes. You see what I'm saying? And I think one of the problems that we face is that we are not enforcing because it most of the time is a talk shop and not a workshop. Right, right. And people don't want to walk the talk. Right. So then we have someone who implements it and holds a fit to the fire and say, Mr. Herman, you said you were going to do that for the prisoners. It's three months. What have you done? Right. Okay. All right. Wonderful. Wow. Time is so interesting, but we have to consider time. You indicated that we have to diagnose the situation and offer prescription. In the interest of time, what would you say should be the starting point in understanding the men in our society, in appreciating what's happening to them? We know that there are certain neurological and scientific suggestions or proposals about what takes place. Since most of your clients, Mr. Herman, are men. Let's start. What's the ABC of handling a man? We know in advertisement, we know in advertisement, you know, to handle a man, you must have a nice coca-cola shaped lady and all kinds of things. Apart from something muscular. But you're asking a loaded question. What's the ABC in handling a man? We have just about five minutes. The point I'm making is that look, our men, right now, we are at the lowest with male in male life, really. Okay. We look at schools who get most suspended, guys, right? And where does it start in the home most of the time? So we have to start to answer that question. We have to go to the root cause. Mama, were you an accidental parent or was that boy planned? Right? If the boy was accidental, there's a very good chance he wouldn't have a father, he wouldn't have a mentor in his life to mentor, to make him a man. And by the way, let me say hi to all the strong St. Lucian women who have raised good men. But because they're successful men, it doesn't mean that they are well wronged men. To get a well wronged man, you need the female touch and you need the male mentor and the male touch also, right? And when you look at it, there are so many homes without a male figure in it, right? So we are raised by women. Then we go to schools. This is 76% of OECS teachers are females, right? In Grenada, we got 23 high schools. And I cannot call them a four men that are principals. In my tongue in Grenada, where I work right now, the male stretch is female. So do you see what's happening there? Yes, was beyond that. Just give Mr. Herman a perspective as to what's taking place in the mind when a man is under stress. We talk about the certain homes, how they are released. Because Mr. Herman, as much as you would like to avoid many things like smoking in the prison, alcohol, etc. What is happening? Okay, what happened? The man is under stress, whatever the stress is, always in pain, right? Emotional pain. Now, he needs a release. This boy is not doing well in high school. His mother is on his case, his teacher on his case, everybody on his case, right? So he fails. He falls through the crack. He's on the streets. He's on the streets. When they think about it, wow, what am I mother going to say? My father, if there's a father, I slap him in my head and say, boy, go and do better, right? The boy is under stress. So what the boy needs is some form of medication, some form of medication to make him feel better. Gentlemen and ladies, I'm telling you that marijuana will do it. Drugs will do it, but is it right? Is it, is it wholesome and healthy for you? That's another question. Because when you smoke, smoke, you get what's called a euphoria or a high. Okay. What is releasing your brain and the happy hormones that make you feel better? You forget your mother's in your case, your dad's in the case, you forget Mr. Herman is on your case, you just push her around. But guess what? When the high goes down, the problem is bigger. Dr. Triton, you will not believe it, but time has. Oh no. Doc, when you come back, tell us a little more about that. We'll come back here and we'll continue the conversation. We definitely will. So your intention is to come back to Senrush and continue to inspire and inform so that we can get involved. Am I correct? Well, my brother, they asked me to come back. The community is asking me. Okay. And once the grassroot calls, I'll respond. Wonderful. Well, Mr. Herman, we had Dr. Triton just for half an hour. Yes. I find that it's very clear, it's full of passion, full of information, and I'm quite sure that we are looking forward to meet Dr. Triton when he returns. Any closing remarks from you, Mr. Herman? Closing remarks other than the missing link at our facility. Okay. And your role, your organization's role in making sure, in filling that gap. We've been unable to fill that gap for many years. Right. And that has contributed to a high recidivism rate. And I look forward to working with you. And Dr. Triton has adopted me. My closing remark is a commitment to you, sir. That's one. Once my feet is on the hella of the West, you got me. Wonderful. Thank you. Well, Doc, let's hear your closing remarks. Thank you. What do you say? Well, Senrush, listen, listen. I know you're going through this scourge of crime. I ask you to be patient. I ask you to please be tolerant, because the boys that you think we can have on this place with their guns are boys in pain. Are boys in pain? I know we don't want to be empathetic towards that. And I know there's a time for enforcement. There's a time to disarm them. Right. But when we disarm them, what do we do? Do we just hurl them into a cell like an animal? Or do we try to save them? My mantra has been, sir, turn in menaces into mentors. Wonderful. And ladies and gentlemen, we need to be more secure in our country, you might say. We need to understand that it takes more to keep somebody in prison than to send them to university. You just count. Just look at $40 a meal or $50 a meal and multiply that by 40 days. We pass $1,000 just for the meals. And Mr. Human would tell you to pay the staff. The money's not enough. So it has been proven that keeping somebody incarcerated costs more than sending somebody to university. Now, for us to pay so much money, if the cost of low living is much higher than the cost of high living, then what shall we do? So in our country, we have no choice. We can't run away. This is where we were born. This is what we know. So we cannot turn the other side. If there is a young man that is given trouble, you have a son that is given problems, you have your husband that's you need some help, ask for help. The only way I know, the only formula that I have to get what you want is to ask for it. This is what the Bible says, ask and shall receive. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened to you. It's not too late. There is hope. Thanks for viewing and God bless.