 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History at Fireside Chat. My name is Doug O'Keefe, the host and co-producer of the chats with Mistress Joanne Gattie. Today we're in Spring Hill, Florida at the home of Harry Shattuck, old school Chicago Leatherman and all around Great Guy. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce Harry Shattuck to Inside Leather History. Harry, I'd love to hear a little bit about your bike. When you rode up on this, I've got to say it was amazingly hot. Tell me, who is it? This is my husband. It's a boy bike. At the end of the fender, you'll notice that it's got the genital parts down here. Right down over there. Everybody kept referring to their bikes as girls. Mine was a boy. How long have you had it? Since 2014. Do you run around Florida here in your bike? I love running around on my bike. I've been exclusively on the bike. Throughout the winter I'll be on the bike, no matter what temperature. If it's zero, I wear a pair of pants, leather pants on top of that, chaps on top of that. And then I have a ski mask that I wear underneath the helmet and with my gloves and everything, I don't feel a thing. It's a thrill. And then with the holidays, I like to do things for kids. I give away stuffed animals in Halloween. I dress as Beetlejuice and I parade around town as Chief Beetlejuice on my motorcycle. I took a black funeral suit and some white duct tape and made this outfit. I've had it for four or five years now and I don't dare wash it because all the tape would wrinkle up. But I've done that. I've done Santa Claus, Pirate, and I have pictures inside to prove it. Well, let's go right to the very beginning because you were born in New York City, but you grew up all over the world. You've mentioned Honduras, Argentina, Venezuela, Texas, Puerto Rico. What took you all there? Well, my father was in the army and since he had a Puerto Rican wife, he had first a station in the US and then a station in South America. So they made him go back and forth. And so we went from New York to Caracas, Venezuela, to El Paso, Texas, to Honduras, to Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, to Ponce, Puerto Rico, where I graduated from high school. And then I did the other half of the world in Vietnam. We went through the Panama Canal. We stopped in Manzanillo, Mexico to refuel. We went to Hawaii for repairs. We went to Taiwan to R&R. We went to Suic Bay for R&R in the Philippines. And I even went up to Mount Fujiyama in Yucuzco, Japan. I thought I was part of a Bible study group and we were going to go up and sit in a lodge. And there was no lodges when we got there. What's interesting is, since we didn't speak the language, they've got a system even for their illiterate people. If you got to go to, say, this town, this town is red, all you got to do is follow the red marks on the walkway and it'll stop where the train will open up. And if there's a red mark on the train, you get on the train. So you can do a color scheme and get to where you're going and still not be literate. Okay. So that's how we got there and back. But no lodge. We had dinner at a Russian restaurant in Yucuzco, Japan. Well, tell us a little bit about your growing up and your concepts on homosexuality. How did you learn that men did these things, or boys, or both? Well, since eight years old, I've had a fascination with the male body, okay, the naked male body. And to quench my thirst, I kept pantsing people for the fun of it to actually get a good look. Okay. And then I was even showing the girl of my own age naked. And I just thought there was not, there wasn't enough toys on her. It was strange because it was totally disinterested. Okay. There's this weed that's got this round thing that grows on it. Okay. And the round thing is it has a bunch of green spines coming out. Okay. Now, when it's green, it's soft. Okay. When it's dried, these things are all really sharp. Okay. Yeah. It's kind of a weed. Well, she wanted, he wanted me to play with her with one of those things. And I just didn't understand what the hell he was talking about. Neither did I want to know. Okay. So that was that, you know, it wasn't until I was 21 when I went to a whorehouse to find out what side of the fence I was on. I laid there with somebody my own age. So that wasn't the thing. Okay. She kept playing with it. So that wasn't the thing. Okay. And it didn't work, but I got the first introduction to clap. Oh boy. Which was funny because I was working also at the Berlin School of Language teaching English because you got to be native of the language you're teaching. And I was over in Puerto Rico. So I got away with that. And one of the students was from Mexico. Okay. Who was a doctor from Mexico who happened to be gay. So he had fun treating me. How so? Well, he gave me the shots. That's as far as, you know, I see. Okay. I mentally enjoyed the whole picture. Okay. Me laying there naked and dropping my doors. Okay. Well, how did you come out as gay then? Well, I knew after the whorehouse that I was on the gay side of the fence, after that I had to figure out what it was all about. At 14, an 18 year old top showed me what the bottom was supposed to do. Okay. And how did this come about? He was a bigger predator than me. Okay. He kept following me around to the point I gave into him. I knew what he wanted, but I liked the fact that I'm a predator and will friendly like go after what I want. I'm not used to jumping back, you know, and waiting for them to show up. Anyway, I'm lost for words. Okay. I had a good time. When I was told I had AIDS in the 80s, okay, which I got it in the 70s. The doctors were like, Oh my God, I got to tell those guys bad news, you know, and my attitude is go figure, you know, they introduced, first time I get into Chicago and they introduced me to a bath house. Okay. And guess where I was because I was free from me. Chuck Winslow gave me a free pass for one year for being Mr. Windy City. No, for being Mr. Man's country. When I won Mr. Windy City, he gave me a lifetime pass. Let's come and visit that though a little bit later because I want to really build into that and be able to have you tell me more. But you also mentioned you were in the Navy and you were traveling all over and I thought when we prepared for this chat, some of that was fantastic information. Tell us a little bit about your time in the Navy. Well, I was in Puerto Rico. Joining the service was inevitable, but the reason at the time was because my Boy Scout Tube didn't help me find a job. And I was going across town to the rich side of town to take care of the rich brats, okay. And out of one of those business owners who would give me a job. Why not? I am in the foggiest. All I know is a word got back to me when they found out that I joined the Navy. We should have given that guy a job. I was good enough to take care of their kids, but so I said goodbye to each kid individually that night. Okay. And I told them I joined the Navy. There's no turning back. You guys have got to find another Scout Master, you know. It's been nice knowing you. And basically he said goodbye to all the kids and then I just walked away from the adults. I mean, I, I, that was different from me. But you mentioned, I seem to recall when we were preparing for this that some of the R&R time was really amazing. Some of the things you were able to do. Yes. Yes. The main R&R when you're in Vietnam is a Subit Bay Philippines. Okay. And the ship's docked there. And there's just a lot of things to do in the bowling alley and bars and pool tables. And even, even Bob Hope came and did one of his last shows here while I was there. Okay. At the time I was more interested in making $20 more doing somebody else's shift. So I never actually got to see Bob Hope. And then they wanted to move around. So they moved and we stopped in Taiwan for 24 hours. Then we Yagusca, Japan, we were there for a short time. On the way to Vietnam, went through the Panama Canal, refueled in Manzanillo, Mexico, repairs in Hawaii, when we went to Midway, Hawaii. Okay. And then basically we needed a lot of repairs all the time. We wind up sitting, the ship wind up sitting just north of the North and South border, borderline. And we would sit there. Vietnam. Yeah. And sit there and entice people to shoot at us. Okay. That was a, and the trick was our radar was on. The rest of the crew was sunbathing or fishing. Okay. And the minute you shattered us, the radar would tell the MiGs where they were and then we shot out of the sky. So basically we got no fire back. Nobody in Vietnam was stupid enough to shoot at us. Okay. But the Marines, they said they would give us coordinates almost every night. So I went to Vietnam. Well, I started out as a joining for the underwater demolition team. When I got in the bootcamp, I wasn't perfect. So they made me sign a waiver. So I was given on a job training of electricians mate on the destroyer. Okay. When I got aboard the destroyer, they said, we don't need no stinking electricians. You're going to be a border technician. So I went to Vietnam as a border technician. I want to change. So I came back as a boat's mate. When I got back to Jacksonville, I decided I didn't want to be a paint chipper all my life. So I went to Great Lakes Hospital Corps School. Tell us about that because that's eventually what took, what brought you to Chicago. Yes. Yes. Yes. I did the medical there. And then my boyfriend was being stationed elsewhere. So I went AWOL and gave him a ride to his home and then a ride to the base. Okay. And then I went over to my parents home told them I was on leave and my dad says, if you're on leave, how can we got a letter here? It says your son's AWOL. So my dad kept my Volkswagen van, gave me a flight back. I was back before 30 days. So they had to release me on the base. Okay. And eventually I got discharged because he didn't like that I was gay. But you said you had a boyfriend while you were still in the Army. How was that at that time? Well, I mean, he was in the Navy too. Just because you're wearing a Navy doesn't make me less of a predator. Okay. I'll find the girlfriends in any regimented group. Okay. But how did the Army react to that? Well, I mean, the officers gave me a chance to just wash it over and stay. I was at the point that I wanted to get out anyway. Okay. So I let them kick me out. Okay. Oh, I see. The people themselves had no problem with me. It's just the system had a problem with somebody outside their system and had nothing to do with anything I did. It's just Hmm. Same thing happened to me and my family since my sister's husband found out I was gay. I've never been allowed to go visit them, talk to them. Okay. I met their kids at my mother's funeral. There are three kids and one of the kids youngest. Okay. For the first time ever and for the last time ever. Okay. All because I am who I am. Not for anything I did. It's just they couldn't, you know, they want to be Bible thumpers. I don't get it. But you went AWOL, you eventually went back, you were discharged. Yes. And you went into the Chicago gay community, predominantly the leather community. Tell us about that. Tell us about getting into that situation. I went from the Navy to William Honkwish, which is a lawyer in in in Waukegan. Okay. I got sick and tired of the kids not understanding me. And I thought it by me a seasoned gentleman that was interested in me and we communicate, right? Wrong. Okay. Yo man wanted me to hustle him. I had no idea what hustling meant. But I did know that when Eddie Rosenberg showed up, okay, I went down to the basement. Okay. Because he was getting more than I could give. Okay. So I'm sorry, basement where? Of a house. Oh, I did. I lived with a lawyer. Oh, I see. In other words, the lawyer had this hustler come visit him every once in a while. Oh, even though we were together. Okay. Got it. And we were all friends. So it you know, it was okay. But then I started going to Chicago and meeting some people. And then they told me that they were hiring Gogo dancers, male strippers. And I said, what? You mean to tell me they're going to pay me to take my clothes off? And they said, yeah, okay, where we go? And that's how I got started. I had a little more than a six pack at the time. And I just got out of the Navy. And I wanted to dance and take my clothes off. So I was kind of a hit. Okay. Where were you doing this? Stage 618. Okay. 618 Clark Street. I was working for the Argus Brothers. Okay. They were mafia guys. Okay. When I won, before I won the contest, the good dancers got paid. The bad dancers didn't get paid. Once I became the head dancer for the bar, I told the owner, I said, you don't hire, you don't fire, you don't chew out any of the dancers without going through me first. Everyone gets their drinks and everyone gets paid. I said, you do that and I put my finger back in my cheek. We'll have a really good time. Okay. So for the rest of the time, that man counted money. So when you play the game, my way, the owners make money. Okay. And I capitalized on that. I did things in bars and we moved from there to another bar. And I put a big, huge swing. Okay. Rope with the board, holes in it, knot. Okay. Six feet up in the air, over in the middle of a circular bar. Okay. And I had my strippers get up there and strip while on the swing. We were doing the swing on the swing. Okay. Oh my gosh. How amazing. They kept, the insurance company kept taking it down. And after the second time, when me putting it back up, they handed it back to me in one foot increments. Oh no. So I could not put it back up. But everybody that went along with my craziness made money. Yeah. Yeah. Well, tell us about some of the other things you knew in Chicago at that time. The old school leather scene of Chicago is the stuff of legends. So what did you actually see? Well, I tried to be part of the legends. Okay. I went by the two shades and it was the one that was burned down. And I said to the bartender, I said, if you want a muscular doorman, let me know. Because I was sick of looking at the door and the doorman wasn't there. They quickly hired me. Okay. Okay. And after that, doorman thing for a while, I went next door to a double A meat market and was a bartender. And I always have a hard time keeping my clothes on. And basically from once I started taking my clothes off in the town, 20 years later, nobody really told me to put it back on. So I wasn't offending anybody and I was still having fun. Okay. Bartending in the back of the double A meat market, I would have an apron on and a pair of boots. Okay. The owner would say, hey, watch this to his friends and grab my apron. I said, I got no problem with it. He said, put it back on. Wow. But I was good with people who are different. Okay. People who have different tastes. Some people like to stay away from them. Oh, those people are into scat or that one's into water sports. Okay. And they're all different worlds. Okay. And in the back bar, I would control all these people. Okay. Without getting all upset. Okay. Should I explain how I appease some of them? Yes. Okay. Okay. One that was in the scat, I scratched my ass and put it in his mouth and say, no, stay there and wait for me to get back. He'd be like a puppy right there. Okay. Another one that was in the water sports, I have on the bottom shelf over there some glass specimen cups from the old hospital. Okay. Okay. I would fill one up and hand it to him. He said, no, I had enough to drink. I said, it's not booze. He goes, oh, thank you. Oh my gosh. Oh, wow. When I first got the two shades, I had to learn what water sports was. I had to learn why they had a bathtub in the backyard. Okay. And as a door man, I kept telling this guy to quit pissing in the yard, piss in the bathroom. I had no idea about the water sports. And last time he did that, I picked him up and I just pushed him out the front door. And then I was told I was in trouble. And then I was told what was going on. After that, I was fine. So you were also in some of the contests in Chicago. Let's explore that a little bit because that's fascinating. Some of those contests just don't even exist anymore. Yes. The first one was Mr. Gays. When you see Mr. Gays Chicago was the first win contest. Why? Because Gays Chicago magazine was sponsoring it. A second one was called Mr. Windy City. That's the one where I found out there was a contest. I was already negative man's country. So that was a duh. I applied and I won that one. I said, okay. So first contest I enter, I win. Second contest I enter Windy City, I win. If you make people happy all the time, you're going to like you and watch you around. I was brought up by bullies and I hate it. So I'm the opposite. And in fact, I am aggressive to go against the bully. Okay. Yeah. I was a lot of fun to be around because the second Windy City contest, they needed somebody to start it. I was still a go-go dancer. So I told my go-go dancers, I said, okay, you guys are going to come and do a show one by one. Okay. And then we'll do a group thing. Okay. And then you guys can pair up to do whatever you want choreograph. I said, I don't care what you do. This is your stage. Their audience is full of your employers or a few two employers. Okay. So it's time for you to shine. And we would get things going and go up even at the Wrenso's white parties. Okay. Oh, yeah. I would go in early and get on stage and start cooking. Okay. And then by the time their regular dancers come in, I'd already have the piece of jamming, you know. Yeah. But it's just a desire to take my clothes off and to party. And I find a nice way to do it so that I'm okay with everybody. When I go to another dance bar, I ask the dancers if it's okay. I dance because sometimes the dancers think of this thing as their piggy bank. Okay. And if somebody comes in and gets any tips, they're taking money out of their piggy bank. Sure. So I would ask the dancers if it was okay with the dancers, I knew it was okay with the owners. Okay. I would go ahead and do it spot. If it wasn't okay with the dancers, I wouldn't. Okay. You competed even in the first IML. Tell us about that, because let me tell you, the people are so curious about that, that first contest. Okay. 1978, me and my boyfriend decided to move to Denver, Colorado. And I was just kind of half-liking that, okay. And I was in the middle of motorcycle mechanic school. So I drummed up the cues. I had to go back to Chicago to finish motorcycle mechanic school, which I actually did. Okay. And while I was here, I heard about this contest coming up with Mr. International Leather. So I called the South Town Lumber Company, which isn't there anymore in Denver, if I could represent them. And they said, sure. I just happened to be in brown boots. I had brown suede chaps. So I kind of fit right away anyway. And those are the pictures that you'll see in the magazines of me dressing that outfit. Okay. Then I got to enter the contest because the South Town Lumber Company said yes. Okay. Now, while I'm at the contest, we're in this hotel room, whatever it is, a big huge room. And Chuck doesn't know what to do. We're all kind of pumping up, making sure all the muscles are out there. You're okay. And so he goes, comes back with a case of beer, puts it on the ground. So we drank beer, got ourselves loose. Okay. So that when we come out there, we were like, yeah, we're ready to go. Okay. Which put a little bit of more spin. And then there was supposed to be five finalists. But lo and behold, finalists number six, Mr. Harry Shaddock, which South Town Lumber Company. So I got to be one of the finalists in the first contest. Okay, cool. Cool. That's wonderful. I've had the privilege of interviewing David Kloss, the winner. So that I know a lot of people are really amazed by the first IML. It's the stuff of legends. What can I say? But I mean, I agree with you, the stuff of legends, okay? Because I wanted to be a part of that. What I was is an appendage of the statue, okay? Or a appendage of the whole thing. Not quite, just like in high school, okay? I wasn't quite accepted into the cool crowd, but I was kept because I was good, okay? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was good in sports, I was kept, okay? But I wasn't cool. When I got to the cool parties, they told me where to sit and who to talk to, okay? And with this, okay, there was a lot of friendly people, okay? But the contest itself and everything was like, wow, okay? It's like, you know, you just you still look back and wow, okay? Yeah. Yeah. So I, before I thought of getting involved with it, okay? And when I was here waiting for the contest to start, I went over the go coast and I asked if I could shine shoes and I said, sure. So I was the boot black there when it first started. Let's come to that because you, how can I say? You established something within the community, I think that one was incredibly needed. And two is now blossomed into the most amazing addition to IML and the community at large. And that is the boot blacking contest. Tell us how that began with you. The first ever, all the, all the contests were in the hotels, okay? Yes. And all the contests had spaces where the vendors would come, et cetera, okay? I was given, they never had to buy, I was given a spot in every IML, okay? To sit there and do boots. But how did you get to the point that that became an institutionalized part of IML? There were contestants, they would not allow anybody to touch their boots until they got back to Chicago and put them in front of me, okay? The trick is to love what you do, okay? Yes. And basically what I love doing, being an exhibitionist, I'll make love to your boots and your shoes. And when I'm through, when I rub whatever into it, you're getting a foot massage on top of it, okay? So I've got you feeling good and then when I step back, everything shines. Yes. Everything is perfect, okay? And basically that's where that whole thing started, okay? And I kept doing it every year. I would make two, three, four hundred dollars doing IML, shining shoes every year, plus bartending or doorman, whatever I was doing at the time, okay? And I'm sitting there in my late 40s saying, hey, I don't want to be the last Mohegan. So I kept talking to people from overseas. Everybody got into my chair. I would bend their ear about idea of a contest, okay? After two years of bending people's ear, it began to make sense. But then they told me, well, it's going to cause too much work. I says, you don't have to cause too much work. You put in everybody's invitation, everybody's packet that they buy, you put one boot black boat ticket in there. He who collects the most wins, okay? So, you know, you'll get paid for every boot anyway. And then some will get their votes. But how did you get to the point that that became a part of IML? When I proved it, Rinslow, they didn't cause any extra work. When he saw the opportunity of just printing one more card and it would be part of the group. To me, it was perfect. You're crowning the fantasy top. Why not crown the fantasy bottom? And why not? And when they had feet down their shining shoes and they put their foot on my shoulder and talked and ignored me, I loved it, okay? They caught on to the whole concept of doing it in the first place, okay? That go and have fun, okay? I'm just a toy down there until I'm through, okay? They loved it. Rinslow loved it. I kept him happy by building, Rinslow happy by building floats. I built a chariot, okay? Out of a tow for a boat, okay? And, you know, put, and slaves were drawing it, okay? But we bumper thing to his car, okay? Just to make sure the slaves didn't get too tired, okay? So we gave one of Rinslow's boys a whip and he would stand next to him, okay, whatever. And I was on the side with the whip and then you had the guys that wanted to be slaves holding chains, okay? But then like they were drawing the thing. And I wanted to make it a little more real for Mr. Rinslow. For what were you making this? I would. No, what reason were you making this whole thing? It was a present. It was something for the parade. Oh, okay. It's for the gate break. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, otherwise it'd be silly. But a moment ago, I have to say, when you started telling me about guys putting their boot on you, but ignoring you because you were just a toy, I saw the most amazing expression in your eyes that told me the unadulterated pleasure it afforded you. I don't know if the cameras are resolute enough to be able to capture that, but I saw it. Yeah. Tell me about that. What emotions, what insensations did it give you? I have a desire to make people happy, make people feel good, okay? Fed, sheltered, whatever, okay? I would, okay, I'm winding people up, all right? To give you an idea of what I'm trying to say, I was at Stage 618 and this guy was getting mad because I was cooing his boyfriend, okay, as a go-go dancer. I said, cool off. I said, I'm winding him up. Now, you take care, you take home and, you know, take care of him, okay? All I'm doing is winding him up, getting him going, okay? So I know what I'm doing to the person that I'm doing something to, okay? And if I get the foot over there, I know he picked up on it, okay? If they're sitting there like this, you know, asking me how, how my home life is and everything else, okay? They haven't quite got the concept of it. Yeah. All they're doing is getting a shoe shine, okay? Yeah. But if they sit back and relax and enjoy the experience, okay? I wanted me to be an experience for people to enjoy, okay? Wonderful. And I learned a long time ago not to suck the party out of the party person, to set the party person up and then get off on the glow that that person has, okay? That way they have their moment, okay? And you've got yours without interfering with their moment, okay? Yeah. So I get off on the glow of the souls that come through my life. When I came out with this trying to get around the leather community, I was trying to be one of the guys, okay? I would be sort of one of the guys, but I wasn't the old school leather group, okay? They had their own cliques, etc., okay? Yes. And I was never much on joining clubs, okay? But what we do is make people feel comfortable. And what Boot Black did was open up the door for other people who aren't perfect, okay? Who aren't totally Mr. Goddesses, okay? To be involved in this contest, in this, you know, to be able to get off on the whole week of festivities, okay? Yes. To enjoy it, okay? I've been thanked by a bunch of girls that they said that if it wasn't for me, there was no way that they would be able to be where they are right now, okay? Wow. I didn't realize that that door I was opening up. But again, I was always trying to make sure that everybody, you know, had a good time and got in there. If you were my friend and Renzlo opened up that door with me and you were with me, we all walked through that door, okay? Maybe not if I wasn't around, okay? But I had an entourage. Most of them were nice people. The ones that weren't nice people got a lot of lessons from me because you're going to be nice for having known me if it kills you, okay? And everybody stayed, okay? Even the ones that were misbehaving, you know? And so I was giving people what they wanted, okay? Yes. And I was getting what I wanted on top of that. So it all worked out for everybody. The contest that you designed with the ticket was eventually, well, to start over on the whole thing, it's still part of the IML experience. But over the years, it's changed. It went from just being these little tickets and then declaring a winner. It's now an integral part of the contest. Okay. And how have you, from your perspective, seen that evolve? I haven't. I've watched it from a distance, okay? Okay. And basically, I'm tickled pink that they went up and going. When I was doing the contest, last year's winner got to be the MC, okay? And got to introduce the new winner, okay? When I left, we got people that wanted to be the star of the show. So they were there, period, okay? Yeah. And, you know, like, and so it was a little different. When I started out, there was no, you have to be a boy to it, okay? There was one girl that was in my first contest, okay? No one knew she was a girl. She was a cute boy, okay? But that's what she wanted to do. And it was okay with me. After that, they separated, okay? And I see no sense in separating, but they might and it's okay that they do, you know. It's gone from me doing this now, because if it's organization, they get money, okay? They get, you know, tickets to go to shows and whatever. And nothing that I could have afforded them, okay? So it's evolved with good business sense, okay? So, you know, I sat back and watched it and just smiled because, you know, I started it. Yes. Well, I'll tell you, you know, in my tenure with working with IML, I saw it go from just the tickets and the winner to being a secondary contest IML. So it would be, here's Mr. Ramrod, New York City. Here's a boy, Joe, who's the boot black. They're putting it together. Yes. But the boot blacking contest itself is still separate, but the contestants are all together. So they're all equal contestants. And it's much more integrated and it's much more valued. Yeah. You are seeing boot blacking now for what it should be, the value that it brings. I wish you could come back and see the integration of it now and the value that's being given to it now. When you eventually turned over the contest to someone else, to a successor, what were your thoughts? Any regrets? No. 1986, I believe it was. I'm standing there and I'm representing the New Gold Coast, okay? And which wasn't run by Chuck Renslow, another character. And I there out loud formally gave, as if I owned it, okay? The contest to Chuck Renslow, okay? It was like public in front of everybody. This was his, okay? Got it. You know, I may have started whatever, but you know, nobody was, I mean, he was the only one making money off, anyway. Got it. But it was, I was having a lot of fun, okay? And propagation was part of it and passing it on was part of it. And them drawing was step at a time, okay? You know, that's all, that was all positive stuff, okay? And the fact that they included a lot of people that wouldn't otherwise be thought of to be anywhere near the leather people, you know, it's just, it's beautiful. Yes. Yes, it is. If you were to meet a brand new boot black coming into the community today, what would you say to them? You can't be an artist and expect all of your students to paint the same painting. Good point. They've got to make a painting that everybody wants to see, everybody wants to touch, okay? They got to put their own touches to it, okay? Yes. That's why I tell people to make love to the boots, okay? They can figure out after that how they want to express themselves. Not everybody does exactly what I asked them or hint them to do. They got their own process. But the trick is you want your customer to come back, at the very least for the shiny shoes, because you're making a little bit of money doing this, okay? Yes. And if you do it right, they can't wait to come back, you know? They're dirtying their boots just so you can come back and get it shined, okay? Yeah. Your boot blacking chair is now in the Leather Archives and Museum, and it has, I believe it's a permanent display, I think. I think it's a permanent display. So, what are your feelings on having your boot blacking chair so proudly represented? I think it's neat because it was an antique boot black chair, and I had it in the back of a double-a-meat market. One of my customers gave it to me and for the market, and then one of my heavier set people gets up there and just plops his butt down, right? Well, he popped a couple nuts on my chair that time, so I took it and I had it welded together, okay? Oh my gosh. So, all the toys that I built for the double-a-meat market, that's the St. Andrew's Cross, the padded benches, okay? I made those, okay? Everything was made keeping my heavier friends in mind, okay? If they were to fall on any of my toys, they would not break any of them, okay? Oh, good. That way, they could have just as good a time as a skinny little guy can do anything now. Sorry. No, not all. So, what's the biggest misconception about you? I don't know if there's much of a misconception, okay? If anybody wants to do anything for any length of time, they have to be nice. Last night, I was at a pool tournament, two nights ago, a pool league, okay? And one of my team members was, yes or this, yes or this. And I turned around and said, why the hell are you so polite? He says, well, if you're polite, you make friends, okay? And I want to have friends. And I basically, I think that's a secret, okay? You know, you be nice to somebody, somebody else can be nice to you, okay? And it will grow. But you got to be real, okay? Okay. I'm pretty much straightforward on what I'm doing and how I'm acting. And most of the time, I tell people there are no strings attached. There's no fun in being helped. And I've been helped by people. One friend took me off the street because I was homeless after getting out of the service. I was living in my car. And I said, I can't afford to do anything. There's no problem. Until you get on your feet. And I figure, oh, in the month I'll get on my feet. Well, at the end of the month, there's a bill. He was charging me, retroactive, and the day I walked in. Okay. So I know what it feels like to be switched. And I don't switch on people, okay? You know, if I offer you a place to stay, that's it, okay? And that's really key to being me and being around me. Before we conclude anything I would love, if you would show the audience this wonderful vest you're wearing. It's from AA Meat Market. If you want to stand up and show, that's great. Well, Dominic Burcelli was the DJ at the AA Meat Market, okay? In the early 90s, all right? And as a present, he gave me this vest. This way, if I get lost, somebody can tell me who I am. That's a beautiful piece. Well, Harry Shattuck, I've got to thank you for an amazing fireside chat and thank you for hosting us here in your home in Spring Hill, Florida.