 Good evening, everybody. I can't see too many of you, but Munir tells me there's quite a lot of you here, and I'm very happy about that. Ah, now I can see you. This is wonderful. So my name is Ruth Gaston, and you are at our monthly religion chat. Each month we do one. We've been doing them virtually for quite a while, and since the temperature reached about 99 in Livermore today, I think today is a very good day to do a virtual religion chat. How many of you are here at a religion chat for the first time? Raise your hand. If you would like to come to more religion chats and would like to be on our mailing list, all you have to do is write interface into connect at gmail.com. There's a dot between interface and interconnect. And then you will be on the list until you tell us to take you off. So we have a mission statement, which those of you who come every month know that I insist on reading it because it reminds me and those of us who come to this event a lot while we're doing it. And our mission statement is to enrich, inform, and educate ourselves and others about the great diversity of faiths and cultures in our valley. Now, recording in progress, okay, got it, our topic for today is how does your community provide for those in need of forgiveness? I was looking through some material that I had this afternoon and I found a quote on forgiveness that said, to forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that a prisoner was you. I thought that meant something to me. So tonight our first speaker is Rabbi Larry Milder of Congregation Beth Emich. Since there are many of you who are not from the East Bay or even from the United States, I'm going to tell you that Congregation Beth Emich is in Pleasanton, California. And unfortunately, Rabbi Milder hasn't other meeting after this one. So he isn't going to be able to have time for too many questions, but I hope that there will be time for a few. So you're on, Rabbi Milder. Thank you very much, Ruth. I would like to thank the organizers of Religion Chat for inviting me to address this month's topic, which is one that is very important to me and touches on a central theme in Judaism. Let me also apologize from the outset for needing to leave you at 7.30 because our board of directors meets then. I wish I could be here for more of the discussion, especially to hear remarks from Dr. Jeet Mood. I'm glad that this is being recorded so that I could hear them later. To tell you the truth, I do not believe that my words could possibly be relevant, given Dr. Jeet Mood's loss and example of forgiveness. I will simply do my best. The medieval philosopher Maimonides offered the following advice. We should be slow to anger and easily appeased. And when our forgiveness is requested, we should grant it with a whole heart and a willing spirit. We should not be vengeful or bear grudges even for a grave injury. I liken forgiveness to zeroing out the emotional weight of hurt. It is not the same as forgive and forget. If I have been hurt, I do not forget what the other did. To do so would be to strangle memory. Rather, I have let go of resentment. The memory is there, but I no longer see the other through the lens of resentment. The other then has become a full person to me. Note that Maimonides says, when our forgiveness is requested, we should grant it with a whole heart. In other words, we should have the humility to forgive when the other accepts responsibility for their actions. So let's say, for example, that you invited me to dinner and I had tested positive for COVID. But I really wanted to come to your dinner party. So I went and I didn't tell you. And then you got COVID. I made a mistake. In fact, it was selfish and foolish. If I apologize to you, it must come with that acknowledgement that what I did was wrong and that I realized that I caused you harm that was within my power to prevent. Under such circumstances, as rightfully aggrieved as you might be, I am making a sincere apology and it is morally right for you to forgive. Indeed, to withhold forgiveness would be hurtful in its own way. But let's say I tried to sneak one by on you. Let's say no one knows who had COVID, but now everybody at the party seems to have gotten it. If I just don't say anything, maybe I won't look like the idiot that I actually was. In that case, if you were to issue a blanket forgiveness to whomever it was that infected you and your guests, you wouldn't be doing something morally good on my behalf. You would actually be enabling me in what might be an irresponsible pattern that I could potentially repeat. Now you could tweak the details of this imaginary scenario however you want. No, I didn't do that. The point is that forgiveness is the moral response to repentance. To forgive without sincere repentance is to be codependent and this is what abusers count on. Nor do I have the moral authority to forgive you for what you did to someone else. This is the theme of Simon Wiesenthal's book, The Sunflower, which he writes, should a dying SS officer who had committed atrocities and now seeks forgiveness from the one Jew who has been brought to his bedside in the hospital be forgiven, there is nothing easy about that question. The several dozen writers and thinkers and theologians whom Simon Wiesenthal asked provide very different answers. We would like neat rules about forgiveness when to give it who deserves it. The best we can do is lay out some broad principles and endeavor to lean toward the merciful side of human nature. All is not forgiven. Above all, not the demonic and the pathological. But on the other hand, repentance obliges us to reciprocate with forgiveness, something that in the flush of righteous indignation we are not naturally inclined to do. We have just entered the month on the Jewish calendar known as Elul, the preparatory month before the High Holy Days. Whatever work of repentance we have put off is meant to be accomplished now. We are supposed to seek out those whom we have hurt, make restitution and apologize. Indeed, an apology without restitution doesn't count for much. But once we have made a sincere effort, humbled ourselves in the act of tishuvah, of trying to turn our lives around, turn our behaviors around, that's the meaning of tishuvah, then the moral responsibility has been transferred to the one who must forgive. And in forgiving, we zero out that emotional weight and restore a relationship to a place of wholeness and possibility without the baggage of yesterday. Those are my thoughts, and again, I offer them somewhat embarrassed to even be speaking this evening. But with your permission, Ruth, if you like, I will certainly respond to questions or comments that people would like to raise. Surely, please. Anybody who has any questions, comments, information that they want checked out? Whatever. Now is the time to ask. So you can use the raise hand function, or you can actually raise your hand? Did you hear that? Somebody's- Okay. Jim, you're muted. The concern I have with that philosophy is that if the person isn't repented, then you are held forever hostage, not being able to forgive forgiveness. So you sort of remain connected to that person, even though you'd like to just, you know, let it go for your sake. So how would you respond to that? I am not sure that I want to let somebody off of their moral responsibility. Okay. Somebody who has caused harm has an obligation to restore what they have done. If I walk away from that and say, well, I'd rather not be bothered by it anymore. I've given them a pass. But in fact, people who commit terrible crimes, people who really do indulge in pathological behavior, it would really unravel the fabric of our society where we all to say, you know, that's okay. None of us really want to be bothered with the emotional weight of that. No, actually, I'm not sure that I want to simply turn away from the harm that others do. I actually believe it is appropriate to hold people responsible for acts of restitution and their role in reconciliation. You can hold them responsible. If you forgive them and it means nothing to them, it doesn't have enough good. But as Ruth said in her opening thing, you know, I gave forgiveness and let the prisoner go and the prisoner was me. Well, just translate that into an abusive, spousal relationship and tell me if that works. Well, you don't have to remain a victim. I mean, you need to get away from the person, but, you know, you need to do whatever you need to do. Well, I actually agree with that part. But I don't have to say, I don't hold you responsible for your acts of restitution. I can't say you're no longer responsible. I'm saying that you no longer get involved with trying to convict them. You know what? I think it's a good thing to be involved to hold people responsible. I think that that's justice and it's appropriate. It's an interesting dilemma. Our society would be, well, just think about the extremes to which that would go. Were we to walk away from that and say, you know, you might think, oh, my psychological well-being is going to be damaged, because I think somebody else is responsible for carrying out their duty to restore justice. Actually, no, I think that it's good for my well-being to hold others responsible. I think that actually that upholds a certain moral stature as a person to hold others responsible for their behavior. Thank you. So I had seen a while ago that Marcia had their handphrased. Do you still have that question? Yes, I do. Rabbi Milder, could you talk a little bit about there's a liturgical practice in Judaism around forgiveness? There is. It is part of our daily prayers to say, may I be forgiving to others? You have to condition yourself to do that, because in the example I gave, rather ordinary example I gave of a person acting selfishly, a person might be rightfully outraged. How could you be so selfish as to endanger all my guests? We understand that our natural inclination is to not be so forgiving. And so it takes an act of will to condition ourselves toward forgiveness as a consequence of daily prayers and Jewish tradition. Not that all Jews understand what all the daily prayers are, but they include language of let me be humble before all who speak harshly of me and let me be forgiving toward others. I think that's a tradition actually that is common to most of our religious traditions. That is that you articulate the need for humility and to act in a forgiving way, because human nature is such that we might want to hold on to our righteous indignation. We might want to keep feeling aggrieved, even though somebody else wants to make up with us. More importantly, we have an entire holiday around saying I'm sorry and saying I forgive you. I call it a holiday, you know, the holy day of the year that we call Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement. And the principle in the Mishnah around Yom Kippur is sins between an individual and God, if we repent before God, Yom Kippur atones for our sins. Sins between one person and another. We must first rectify our relationship with the other, seek forgiveness from the person we have harmed, and only then turn to God to seek forgiveness from God, because we have indeed failed God if we failed to live up to our moral responsibilities toward another. It's still a failure to God, but you can't go ask God to forgive you for something you did to somebody else until you go on to that other person and apologize sincerely. And it must be a sincere apology. It could not be pro forma. It must be actual. And my monotheist spells out in his own philosophical way what an actual real apology is. It's acknowledging what you did. It's saying I am sorry and saying I won't do it again. And then if you do that, then, well, the other person's supposed to forgive you. So that's part of what we emphasize on Yom Kippur. That doesn't mean that's the only day you should do this. It means we give ourselves an annual point in time that's a target. If you put it off, if you try to get out of dealing with this, there's a date by which you really ought to reconcile that so that each year you could start over fresh and hopefully zero out the emotional weight of the hurt that you might have suffered. So in that sense, you do want to be free of that burden. Thank you. And so I think we only have six minutes left before you have to leave, but Alan had his hand up so we can do that quickly and then maybe fit in one more. Alan? Yeah, wow. I just wanted to thank you, Rabbi Miller. That was, and with Jim, that was a powerful 15-20 minutes, I'll tell you. And I want to thank you for the discussion and the thought that you put into that. It's incredible to me that, you know, the things I need to ponder here. I did want to get the name. You had mentioned a book, I think, by Simon Wiesenthal. What was the name of that book? So Simon Wiesenthal was a famous Nazi hunter and he put together a book based on a fictional story. This did not really happen and it's called The Sunflower and it's readily available. It's a widely read book and it consists of a couple of dozen very short essays from people across the spectrum debating the nuances of forgiveness, particularly in the case of somebody who has hurt other people. What do they deserve? And I have to tell you the answers are really quite all across the board. There's no attempt to synthesize them at all. It is, he is allowing people to lay out widely divergent approaches to the question of forgiveness. You know, I recognize how complex this is now. It's not a simple statement about forgiving or not forgiving. It's a very complex nuanced situation and I really appreciate your thoughts on that. Thank you. So I agree. I think I can answer one more question or just respond to another comment if you like. Mila, did you have your hand up or did I? Oh, they just went off this screen. I see Ramona Krausnik has a hand up so I want to. Thank you. I appreciate that. I just wanted to comment about something that Ruth said. Really, when you forgive somebody, the prisoner is you. It really is. If you hold a grudge against somebody for so long, even though they'd say I'm sorry and you just don't forgive them and hold the grudge, you're the prisoner. I think this happens in families a lot. This is where our families have struggles and you fight with the people who are closest to you. And these are the places where we find the long term grudges and it is really, it's a sad fact of our nature that we are so prone to that. Indeed, if there's a role for religion, it's in encouraging us to reach for something a little a little better on our better side. Here's something where even though we might actually have different approaches to questions of forgiveness, I think that we all get the idea that religion generally teaches us to lean toward humility and to lean toward being forgiving because our tendency might be to lean in the other direction without having without actually being able to spell out the rules, though I gave you what I thought might be a reasonable example to ponder. Thank you very much. Thank you to the organizers and Dr. Jeet Mood. I look forward to watching the presentation when I'm done and the recording is posted. Thanks everybody. It's a great honor. Thank you very much. Okay. Munir, would you be willing to introduce your good friend? I would, but I don't have the bio in front of me. Go ahead. Go ahead. You can do it. You can be short. Okay. Well, do this. So let me just say about Mr. Jeet Mood that he is an amazing man. He was born and raised on a small rice farm in Thailand and he felt his calling to teaching when he was a principal and he asked him to lead his first grade peers in his village. He finished teacher's college in Thailand and then he came to the United States for his higher education while working on his PhD. He fell in love with his colleague, Dr. Linda, and she embraced Islam. That was 30 years ago. They raised six boys and Mr. Jeet Mood moved from city to city and served as a principal at seven Islamic schools in the United States. After he retired, he received some tragic news. His 22-year-old son, Salahuddin, was fatally stabbed during a robbery while he delivered pizzas in Lexington, Kentucky, and they slaying rattled Lexington's large Muslim community. It was two years later that Dr. Jeet Mood sat on the witness stand and looked at his son's murder and said, I don't blame you. He asked the court to spare the life of his son's murder and the Washington Post quoted him saying, as forgiveness is the greatest gift of charity in Islam. With that, I will turn it over to a mentor for myself and a good friend and a really amazing man, Dr. Jeet Mood. It looks like you're muted. Okay, we can hear it now. Go ahead, please. Assalamualaikum warahmuneer. Do you have a video clip? I shot one. Yes. I would love to play it, but it's not ready at this moment. But let me try to get it ready if you'd like to just chat for a moment. I just go ahead and utilize a few seconds that you are giving to me so generously. Greetings of peace. Assalamualaikum. Good morning from Thailand, across the biggest ocean in the world, the Pacific Ocean. I'm very honored by Allah Almighty God to be part of this religious chat. And I thank Allah for this opportunity. And read by Larry Meyler. I thank you for your wisdom and sharing us the concept of forgiveness, because forgiveness is genuine so value that every religion promotes this. And so we have to keep on promoting it. And I thank MCC, my brother Munir, our Zoom moderator for involving me in this. We communicate with each other for a good long time. I have to apologize in front of my heavy action. My English is not as smooth as Rabbi Larry, but God willing I will try to speak from my heart. Because when I speak from my heart and we reach the viewer's heart, I think that my approach this morning in Thailand in the evening in San Francisco. If Munir read it, I will go ahead and let you do the job. Not quite, but if you can go ahead and proceed, I'm doing my best. All right. I will share the okay with you. Do you get the power for Munir or Ruth? We can see us. All right. Yes. Okay. That's wonderful. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, right now we can see the first slide, but it isn't in presentation mode. Okay. Sorry about that. Yeah, that's that's good now. Okay. Actually, I want to have the motion of my presentation, my power, but you can see, right? Yeah. Okay. But I want to have a slide set up. Okay. Okay. Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, in the name of Almighty God, Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala, the compassionate, the merciful. I should thank you for the opportunity to be part of this normal program to promote peace, mercy, and forgiveness throughout the humanity. When I look at the interfaith, interconnect, I see the bridge. Our program today is the program to build the bridge of love and understanding among human humanity. And it's so appropriate for me to share the concept of Islam because I want to be just to the host, the interface, interconnect, to share with the beauty of Islam in terms of the worth of Allah Almighty in the Holy Quran in Arabic. And inshallah, please bear patience with me. Islam promotes multiculturalism and diversity. I promote this concept in America, in Thailand, and in Southeast Asia as I travel, because I was thankful to Allah Almighty for 50 years of my life to promote Islam and the beauty of Islamic education through many schools across the United States. So, I think Islam promotes multiculturalism and diversity. And this evening is very appropriate. I would share with you the Holy Word of Allah Almighty God. I seek refuge with Allah from Satan the accursed. I seek refuge with Allah from Satan the accursed. The meaning in English, O mankind, surely we have created you from male and female, from Adam and Eve, and have made you nations and tribes so that this is the purpose of God Almighty who created all of us in diversity so that you may know one another. You see that we have never seen each other, Ruth, which has made you now. And I get to know you because of this verse, God indicated, and Messiah too. So, then God made a judgment. Surely the best of you or the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the one who is the best in conduct. So, that's why, that's the only criteria God Almighty will judge us is our conduct with one another, with God Himself and the human being that He created. So, here in America, I found that Islam promotes diversity and multiculturalism. And when I look on the bottom map, I don't see Thailand so I put it real big. So, I have a Thailand map now on the map of the United States. Now, what happened? America, multicultural and diverse society. Islam teaches us that all human beings are created equal by one Creator, Allah Almighty. Humans are like tulips, my favorite flowers, tulips. They are flowers of different colors coming together to make a beautiful kind of human race. May I say you like to see tulips? Here we are. I know you have in your garden, front yard, even beautiful. People from all over the world migrate through the United States of America, the land of opportunity for our few lives. Together they help create America, a new multicultural and diverse society. Therefore, America is the world's most diverse nation in the world. Diversity makes America so uniquely attractive and beautiful. And all of you, my viewers this morning, this evening, you are so beautiful because you are the tulip of human race. That's what Islam stands for. Diversity makes our country great. What truly makes our country great is its diversity. I have seen that beauty in so many ways over the years. Whether we are born here or seek refuge here, there is a place for all of us in America. We must remember it is not my America. It is our America. Ms. Michelle Obama, our former First Lady, from 2009 to 2017, where I went to the courtroom to testify that this written was written July 29, 2019. Here you see them, recognize this First Lady and the First Family. America is a place for all of us. And America is our America. Now we get into how does the topic for this evening, how does your community provide for those in need of forgiveness? In Islam, in order to manage our life and the life of our community, we follow the Holy Quran, which is the source of information in Islam is Quran and Hadith. Holy Quran is the words of Allah Almighty. Meanwhile, the words and the actions of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing be upon him inspired by Allah in the book form of we call Hadith and Sunnah. Let's understand what Rabbi Miller shared with us regarding the forgiveness. I found this definition of forgiveness remarkable. It fit my life in the courtroom in Lexington, Kentucky. Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim, this is I am, undergoes a change in feeling, in attitude, regarding an offense. Let go for negative emotions such as vengefulness with an increased ability to wish and to offer, to wish the offender well. That's what exactly happened to me in the courtroom. This is where I hugged him and I whisper to him. And I know this is only the first time in my life to meet him. And I'm sure that will be my last moment to be with him because 31 years of imprisonment, Allah know best whether I will be alive. But I told him if I were to be alive, I will welcome him out from the dark room of prison and bring him out from the light of the world and be a family. This is my last word that I advise to him. My last advice to my dear nephew. Oh my dear nephew, I forgive. I have forgiven you. You may start a new chapter of your life. You must reach out to Allah, Almighty God. Bow down to him, bow down to him and seek his forgiveness and seek his forgiveness. He will forgive you. I pray for your safety because prison is not a place to enjoy yourself. Very dangerous place. So I pray for his safety. Now, this is the first source of Islamic information and knowledge which is the glorious Quran. Allah, Almighty God, addressed that would you not love for Allah to forgive you? This is the word of Allah in translation. Would you not love for Allah to forgive you? In my case, our youngest son refused to forgive after working for two years and seven months before the court time because the night of murder he was with his brother and he was the first to receive the news from the three policemen at three o'clock in the morning that your brother not coming home. He stayed. So he was very bitter. He loved his big brother. So finally the mercy of Allah grant upon me to comfort my heart. Our son, the youngest one, able to forgive when he saw me hug the man and he said, Oh Baba, I forgive him right away after I saw you hug him, whisper at him and offer him the tissue. He's not a monster. He's a human like us. He just being meatless for by the evil, the devil. So Allah loves those who seek, seeking forgiveness from himself. That means from Allah and from human being. So this is the verse that helped me comfort me so much because our family able to obtain 100% forgiveness to the man that hurt us so much. God said, Allah Almighty said, He said, Allah Almighty said, Let's see what translation inspires us. Allah Almighty God said, and let them forgive, command me to forgive and overlook his shortcoming because that's his mistake, but you forgive him. And then God, Allah Almighty said, would you not love for Allah to forgive you? So I addressed to my five sons because my wife, may Allah bless her soul, returned to Allah Almighty God mercy and your 13 months before our later son got murdered. So I just look at what Allah promised us, asked as comfort as that, would you love that Allah forgive you? O Baba, yes, we like to forgive him just what you did. Now then forgive him until the last moment our youngest boy forgive. I thank Allah Almighty God so much for his mercy. Now start to get into the topic, but this is a foundation of Islamic community that we use the Holy Quran and the teaching of Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him to solve the issue of any affair. The Imam and Muslim leaders, even Brahmunir Safi, he will use the Holy Quran and the teaching of Prophet Muhammad which is in the form of Hadith or Sunnah, the practice of the Sunnah. Muhammad, peace be upon him, therefore in Islam there are two types of human right violation or two types of right violation, in turn form two types of forgiveness because you are violating somebody's rights then you have to seek forgiveness and then two right of forgiveness. The first right, the right of Allah Almighty. In Arabic we call it the hukukul law, the right of Allah. The number two, the right of human beings in Arabic words hukukul ibad, the right of his servant, Allah's servant remember, whether Muslim or not yet Muslim, we are all created by the same God, Allah Almighty, therefore you have to respect every human being whether they are in the same faith with you, but Allah Almighty is the same God to that person and to us. So you have to respect them so that you can respect Allah the Creator. Now come to the right of Allah, hukukul law. The first person who commits sin against Allah is our father and our mother, our father Adam, peace be upon him and then our mother Eve, Hawa, peace be upon her because of their disobey Allah, Allah asked them not to go near the tree so that will not be tamed by devil to eat the fruit from the tree, but because of the temptation that's why all of us every day, every moment will be tamed by the devil. Then Adam realized the mistake so he prayed this and Muslim all over the world will pray this word from our first father and mother Eve and Hawa in Arabic. Every day we recite this forgiveness, pray many times. I say this inside the prayer, outside the prayer, sometimes while I was driving, my mother was watching the religious, I decided because I'm a sinner, 24-hour sinner. I sin by my eye, see something that is unlawful, my ears listen to the gossiping or something that is not permissible by God and in Islam. So I say this, O Lord, our Lord, we have wronged our souls, this our father and mother Adam and Eve, peace and blessing be upon them both, their commission but they accept the mistake very most full, then they reach out to God Almighty and say this word, our Lord, we have wronged our souls, if you do not forgive us and have mercy, mercy, very important concept in Islam and on humanity, mercy on us, we shall be lost. So Allah Almighty forgave them both, however they have to accept the consequences, forgiveness is kind, but you have to get out from the heaven, from the paradise and live on earth until we are living on earth today because we are the children of Adam and Eve. Now this is the most important thing that we are dealing this morning or evening is how your community provides the access to those who need forgiveness. This is the human right violation here, Hukukul Ibad, violating the right of human being, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him described in Hadith, there are three things that none of you will shall violate of any human being or even animal, the cat, the dog, the cow, you cannot violate their rights, you cannot overload the donkey for instance or you cannot mistreat the cat or the dog, but now we're dealing with the human being, the most noble creation of Allah Almighty, three rights, don't even violate it. Number one, name and reputation, no God sleeping, backbiting or lie against them. Okay, number two, wealth and property. This is the right that no one shall violate as a principle of Islamic school in America, I teach this so much heavily, so our seven Islamic schools that I promote Islamic education, we have very peaceful environment, Islamic environment. Our son, Salah al-Din, his right number two being violated because all of his belonging was robbed and even pizza that he tried to serve the man, he got it and he ate the pizza too, he must be very hungry because he has involved in the drug. This one that really painful physical safety and life that our son lost. Now the source that you saw from the Holy Quran, this one second source of information and knowledge, Hadith, before we get into the really action of problem solving and lead into the briefness, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him said, it is not permissible for a Muslim to abandon his brother for more than three days, three days, no more than three days is a cool off period. The title is said that three days as a cool off period during personal conflict. If someone abandoned him for more than three days and he died during that period, he will go to hellfire. How serious it is, very serious. Then he said again the following teaching, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him said, if someone abandoned his brother in Islam, we call it brother, sister, if someone abandoned his brother for a year, his sin is like you are killing his brother. It's like a killer person. That's why Islam so much emphasize about human relation, establish the bridge, build a bridge for understanding and love and forgiveness in Islam. It is permissible for two Muslims with conflict to have a three day cool off period during their personal disagreement. What happened here? However, it is considered a sinful act. If they do not reconcile, if they do not reconcile, reconcile after three days, then that leads to the second slide on the Hadith teaching. This is really the masterpiece for the Muslims to live in peace with the community. Prophet Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him said, people deeds are presented to Allah before Allah twice a week, Monday and Thursday. That's why Muslims follow Prophet Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him. We fast every Monday, we fast every Thursday and fasting today. Because I want to follow my beloved Prophet, our beloved Prophet. And then he continued to say, and then every slave of Allah is trans forgiveness. On Monday twice a week, that's a very big deal. Twice a week, Allah forgives his servant sins, minor sin. The big sin is if he does not associate any thing with Allah in worship. This is the biggest sin that Allah will not forgive. But sin, any sin come to him with seeking his forgiveness, he will grant it. But the person whose heart that is ranker, it is ranker against his brother or sister will not be forgiven, will not be pardoned. With regard to them, it is said twice he still gives time to his servant, his slave. Hold these two until they reconcile, hold these two until they reconcile. That's why I enjoy being Islamic school principal, but insha'Allah I have an example at the end. How could you enjoy being the principal solving the conflict issue? But I will share with you. In Islam, violating the right of humans are far more serious, are far more serious than the right, violating the right of Allah Almighty. Number one, when Allah's right, Allah's right being violated, that person must seek forgiveness directly, sincerely, let Rabbi Larry say it, directly and sincerely from Allah and the underlying. He would always forgive, he would always forgive because he loves forgiveness. In the holy month of Ramadan, we beg Allah for forgiveness. Number two, when humans right being violated, that person must sincerely, remorsefully, that's what I think Ruth mentioned that too, seek forgiveness from the victim himself. You cannot go talk to somebody, I seek forgiveness from that man, but you didn't go to the one that you violated, that's not permissible. If forgiveness is granted, go to number B. He will seek forgiveness from Allah for violating the right of his servant. You see that? That man killed our son, so he violated the right of Sahuddin. So, Sahuddin already died, so I'm the father and his mother also died. So, his father had the ownership of Salahuddin and his five brothers. So, we're dealing with the one who killed him. And finally, we solved the problem and we're all both happy. So, number B, he will then seek forgiveness from Allah for violating the right of his servant, which is Salahuddin. We are the servants of Allah in Islam, servants or slaves of Allah, with the noble servants, the blessed slaves. Now, number C, this series, I'll go along with the teaching of Prophet Muhammad on the right, on the left screen. However, if forgiveness is not granted by the victim, Allah will not forgive him. His deed will be hanging in the sky, like on Monday and Thursday. Like the clouds hanging in the sky will not be accepted until reconciled, until he makes sure that the one who had the right violate said, I forgive you, now you can go to Allah, Allah will forgive you. Sure enough, he'll forgive. This is how the beautiful teaching of Islam. Now, go to Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. He was sent as a mercy for mankind. This is how he deal with the forgiveness issue, the murder issue during his time in Medina, in Saudi Arabia, Medina. A man came to Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him with the killer of his slave in his hand. He hold his hand, hold his hand to come to the Prophet. So peace and blessings be upon him. There is, he asked the Prophet to deal with it like a state and government issue. Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said forgive him that he's advised. The man, but the man refused. Prophet then take the blood money. But he, the man also refused. So the first thing is that in Islam, three three things during the crime, the murdering crime, life for life, Allah said in Holy Grail, he can kill that you will not be wrong because he killed your sons. But that's number one, and we forego that one. Number two, take blood money. And in the United States, instead of Kentucky, there is no blood money. There is no blood money. So go to the best, which is forgiveness. That's why you saw the video clip from the Lexington, Kentucky. So the man refused again, man, I don't want money. I want him to be killed. All right, Prophet Muhammad wisely told him. Go and kill him. And for you, just like him, like a murderer. So what happened with the man? Problem solved. So the man let go of him, let him go. So Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing be upon him, is our divine role model that I use throughout my life. I use in 30 some years in Islamic school, solve a problem. But I use the problem mechanism. All right, let me move this a little bit. This is a mechanism we call the conflict resolution. Salam, S-A-L-A-M, peace. Salam means peace, like a religion of Islam, it's religion of peace. So Salam, start with number one, S stating, stating that when someone comes to my office, the two students come to my office with conflict. So I look at Salam, A-S stating, state the conflict. A, number two, second step, A agreeing, agree the conflict exists. Three, L, listening, listening, listen and learn. And then A, Salam advising, advise each other. And number one, number last, that will lead to forgiveness. Maximizing the spirit of Islamic brotherhood, Islamic friendship and friendship, that will lead to forgiveness. I will share with you my actual experience in the following slide. So this is a mechanism, the model that I use to solve my community when people come with conflict and want to reach the state of forgiveness. Because Salam, peace, model. Now, during my dealing with the students or the parents or the school board or the teachers, I use these three things. Number one, be sincere. In Islam, emphasize heavily sincerity. Number two, think before you say and act upon what you say. Because you have to establish relationship with your students. Number three, speak from your heart. It will reach the heart of the people. This picture of my assembly. Now, this example that I will share with you. Personal experience as the Islamic school principal in America. How does your community provide for those in need of forgiveness? Okay. It takes a courage for a person to say, I am sorry. I'm sure you're explaining that through in your life or even your own self. It takes a courage for a person to say, I am sorry. In the same time, it takes a bravery for a person to say, please forgive me. Mom, forgive me. Dad, forgive me. It takes bravery for the son and daughter who make mistakes. But no problem. We have to deal with each other with unconditional love and affection. Now I have an example of case one. Case one is a form of conflict. Case number two, parents conflict. This really happened in my life a lot. So these two friends sent to my office by the teacher. They have a physical fighting. What did I do? I put them, I greet them. Salam, welcome to my office. I use my office as the face of education, not a face of oppressed or make the kids afraid, respect me, but they come to me. So. Somebody say something. Yes, yes. The time is up, right? Ruth, it's time is over, I think. I am muted, let's say. You're not anymore. Well, you're you you're right in the middle of these two cases. So why don't you quickly finish them and then we'll end. Yes, I have two more slides and that's it. I have two. I just go with our explanation how that. So finally, I was able to make the two students who conflict physically agree upon and then both of them say this. I'm sorry I was wrong. Please forgive me and I forgive you for the sake of a lot. So job done for me as a principal solving the personal conflict of my students. Now the two father have to come before we suspend the two boys. Dealing with the kids is no problem in my life. Parents is the most critical one for me. Come to the point that the father came to my office. They blame each other for your son. Hit my son, hit her, his last. But I was able to use my wisdom to make they come to the point they want to have physical physical fight in my office. I asked them to calm down and sit down. Say, I will do be like him in a straight on the regime. I seek I seek refuge from a law in a law against the level. Sit down calmly. I won't I have to say something. So finally, long story short, I said that did your son kill the other son? He said, no, did your son kill the other son? No, you know that I your principal, my son got killed. I use my real life case. My son got killed by a man I never know. But I forgive him. Can you forgive each other? Now they both cry. Then they say, this was the same thing. They come and hug each other. I'm sorry I was wrong. Please forgive me. Then I forgive you for the sake of Allah and their heart. Then I called the boys that we already reconciled. The father came. Asked the boy to shake hand with the other father. Seek forgiveness from the father. The same thing we are the boy came and say, salamu alaykum, peace be upon you, shake the hand and seek forgiveness. Now both boys, very good friends, both father, very good men. They invite each other for a barbecue picnic. So this one we provide of a community in this capacity. This one probably too too long for me to to share with you before the time is up. This is a real case personal experience. A true story in America. A Muslim, her loved one got murdered. She was unable to forgive herself. She was unable to forgive the killer. So she left Islam. Real life crisis. How can I forgive when it hurts so much? So I don't have opportunity to share the story. It's a real story and journey in the real estate for more than forgiveness in Islam. So right here I am open your heart to forgive those who have wronged you. The one who created your heart will forgive you. So what is in your mind? That's what it is, but time is over. I go back to you. Yes. So I think we're running out of time. But we can have everyone who wants to leave and we can have some people stay and chat and ask questions if you have time. Yes, I do. So, Muneer. Yes. Is that is that OK? Absolutely. I'm being out. Yeah, that's great, Ruth. If it's OK with you, it's OK with me. OK, so I know that some people have other things they have to do and feel free to sign out. We are going to have another religion chat like we do every month on September 8th and we'll send you an email. And we hope we'll see you then. And thank you very, very much for signing in today. And if you want to stay a little bit longer and ask some questions, why? Well, let's say we'll take another 15 minutes to do that. And where is this going to be posted if people have to leave early? Is it going to be on? It's going to be on Facebook. And it's also going to be on the Muslim Community Center site, right? Yes, it'll be on the Muslim Community Center's Facebook page and YouTube page, as well as the Interfaith Internet's Facebook page. And it's already up there right now. OK, yeah, thank you. Thank you. OK, goodbye to the people who are leaving. And let's keep talking for the people who have questions that want to be answered. Thank you so much. Thank you. If you'd like to raise your hand. Thank you, everyone. Can we stop the screen share? Yeah, Dr. Jim, if you want to turn off your screen share, I think we can see your full video. So yeah, I would like to see if people don't mind. I'd like to at least see the last slide and have some comments on it. It was a very interesting talk and I'd like to just see that last slide. If that be possible. I think it's up currently. No, there's one more slide after that. Oh, I see Dr. Jim, is there another slide you'd like to share? This one was one after that, it looks like this is the one. Seventeen, seventeen, my last slide before the question. Yeah, that was the last slide. Yes, thank you. I didn't go for it. OK, do you want to turn off your your screen sharing, Dr. Jim, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? What are you going to do? Monit, do you want to show the video or just for that? Yeah, I'm having trouble doing it. I would love to if I could just have a trouble doing it. I'm so sorry. All right, you just go stop sharing. Right. Allah, Muhammad, Muhammad, usually my presentation is taken an hour. Yeah. So I have a question. How long did it take before you started thinking about giving forgiveness? When did you start thinking about the process of forgiving or was it immediate? You just on my personal experience with our sons. OK. It followed as a father and the principle of thousand of kids and teachers in America, it won't take me long to forgive because I dealing with this in my life a lot. But the most important were our five remaining sons. So I have to use my fatherhood to bring them along. By using the teaching of Allah from Holy Quran and the example of Prophet Muhammad to whom he forgave all of people who hurt him during his lifetime. So because they were the product of Islamic education, so it's one take long, except the last one I told you. So it takes the whole thing is two years and seven months. But for me, I already forgave him before entering the court room, so seven two years and seven months. But no one knows that I forgive, but I already prepared to forgive. OK. It does answer your question. Yes, because I know if I this is a lifetime opportunity. That's why I told our sons this is a lifetime opportunity to earn forgiveness from Allah by forgiving someone that hurt us so much. They agree that because they believe in the book of Allah, Holy Quran, and then believe in the example of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. They agree and then we forgive because we can earn a lot of forgiveness from his mercy too. So I am very happy with them. I took them to Makkah to perform Hajj even to give them as a as a spiritual gift to perform Hajj right after the court room incident. Thank you for the question. Are there some other questions? Yes, please. Yes. I thank you very much and welcome. You are so handsome, my brother. Thank you, sir, so much. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you and can see your handsome face from Edmond, Canada. Edmond, Canada. It's not really a question. I just really wanted to say hello and and I just want to tell everybody about how Dr. Jit Moot saved my he really changed my life. And I don't really have time to tell the whole story, but it is quite a fascinating story and I cannot thank him enough. And I love him very much and his family and Salahuddin. God bless him. So you you saw video and you changed your mind. It's so it's the story is so long because I was such an the opposite person that I am now. And you really opened my eyes to what real life is about. And you know, I just. Yes, just thank a lot. Brother Abdul Razak bowed to a lot and thank him for his guidance. We knew our midst, but we love each other very much, brother, very much more than my old brother. OK, and I pray for you and I love to protect you from COVID-19 and all harm done in the society because we will be test. So be patient when we got test. But we also every day, every moment, we get blessing. So be thankful to him when you breathe the air each time. That's the blessing. Be thankful to Almighty God and bow down to him. And and we will see each other in paradise. Would you like that? I love I would love. Wow, you use Arabic term now. For sure. It's so nice to hear your voice. And I'm really glad that I took the day off to listen to you. And yeah, it's great. Thank you for come on over. My pleasure, sir. And thank you for the these. Interfaith chat program time make us who never know each other to know each other because this is the bridge that you, the organizer, have built for the humanity to come to know each other for the sake of unity of humanity. In Islam, we have a unity in brotherhood. Judaism, Christianity and Islam, because we are coming from Abrahamic faith. So I teach the students in Islamic school, we are a cousin. So you have to respect and love each other. The other group is the children of Adam. All human being, any religious organization or in faith, they are our relative because we have the same father, the same mother. So this agreement may take place, but you have to think and deep. Take a deep breath and then you before you react. That's why I think first before you say and say and act upon what you say. So so that you will not be hypocrite, be sincere in everything you do. And the problem will be solved. The mercy of Allah, Almighty God will come. Make you become a man, a woman of tranquility, peace within yourself, peace in your society and family, all these because we need each other to love each other for the sake of Almighty God, Allah, especially the least time the time of COVID-19 pandemic, we just have no time for each other. We just have no time for each other. We just afraid of everything. We don't have time for the mother, son and daughter to spend time, a quality time to love one another, to hug each other because they won't allow any hugging, not allow any hand shaking. What happened with family relationship? What happened with the community relationship? What about I want to reach out to you today across the Pacific Ocean? OK, but at least this program built the bridge for me, not just to know only my brother Muniz, but I meet all of you this morning. That's why you are the case from Allah, Almighty God, for me to see today across the ocean and continent. So what happened now is not accident. I want Allen to know that this is not accident. Mr. Troupe had been ordained, had been decreed, had been written that on the 11th of August 2011, we will meet over here. No accident. That's why when I see each one of your face, O Allah, I thank you for sending this beautiful face, the face of human race for me to greet and to see and to talk to. I thank you. I thank you all, Allah, Almighty. Thank you. Thank you for coming all the way across the ocean to talk to us. We really appreciate it. You are a so sweet young lady. You know that? Thank you very much. You are everyone so beautiful and he's in her own way and handsome. From his whole way, that's why I talk to the students. Everyone is beautiful. This one is handsome. So you have to think positive but be negative in COVID-19. Be positive in life, but be negative against COVID-19. Then you will be just fine, trust in Allah, trust in God Almighty. And good to see you, Ruth and Marcia. Thank you, everybody. Oh, that's my sister from Indonesia, right? Samila? Peace be upon you. I don't know if Ruth has time. Okay, good to see you here. Look at the from the one hundred one seventeen thousand island. She's with us today. Thank you. Yes, see Ruth. This is not actually a person in the island come and meet with us. That's why your program, your interfaith connection, these really connect us as you say it. And I thank you to Allah Almighty and give you the blessing of your life. And all the family and those who organize this program and move on without any issue and problem. I don't know if Marcia can talk. Yes. Is she there, Marcia? Yes. Oh, I'm glad you can hear your voice. Yes, I'm here. Oh, here you are. I don't know if we have time for one question, one more question, or if we should wrap it up, Ruth, what do you think? Kind of, I think that I haven't heard any questions in the last couple of minutes, but if somebody has one, speak up and we'll continue. Maybe we're all tired. I know it's late for you in early morning for me, no problem. Thank you so much for speaking. And I'm glad we have the recording because I'm very interested in doing it again. I want you to ask your big favor, Ruth and Marcia, take good care of Munir for me. We will. I know him, but I never saw him in person. So take good care of him and his family too. OK, such a wonderful young man. Thank you. And thank you, Munir, for inviting us. Thank you very much. OK, thank you. All the work that Munir did to make this happen. Thank you, Munir. My pleasure. So I think we can wrap up and again, you can email interfaith.interconnect at gmail.com. If you want to sign up so you can come to more of these meetings. Yes, definitely. They're free of charge and it's always something interesting to think about at them. Oh, are welcome. Before we sign off, I must apologize for every mistake that I made. It's come from my weakness. Anything that the audience and the viewer able to take forward the positive outlook. That's from God Almighty. I thank you and my apology to organizer. Please forgive me. Forgive you. Thank you. You are so generous. One thing I allowed to say to all of you is I love you for the sake of Allah, Almighty God. Thank you. I love all of you for the sake of Allah, Almighty God, not for any other sake. OK, so that our love will be everlasting because God is everlasting. And that's it. I talk too much. You know, I don't know when I see people new in my life. I'm so excited. Oh, Allah, how merciful you are to send these gifts for me to enjoy in my short life in this world. I really thank you. I didn't really. I don't want to say it. We'll sign off. Yeah, we'll sign off. We'll sign off. Bye. Good night and good day. Bye. Hey, buddy, thank you.