 Hi everyone, thanks for joining us today. I know there are a number of things that may have kept you away It's a great to see you all here. My name is Ben Bland I'm the director of the Southeast Asia program at the Lowy Institute and I also work on Hong Kong Which is what we're going to be talking about today I want to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet the Gadigal people of your Euronation and paying my respects to their elders past present and emerging Pleased today really pleased to be joined by Ted Huy democracy activist and I guess against your choice former Legislative councillor from Hong Kong After studying law Ted actually didn't go into the law unlike many politicians in Hong Kong and elsewhere He went straight into politics Working as a researcher then a local councillor and ultimately a member of Hong Kong's Partially Democratic Legislative Council for the Democratic Party in Hong Kong Ted is and was and has been a committed and vocal defender of human rights Not just in the legislature, but on the streets of Hong Kong I think being pepper sprayed at least twice more than that many times at close range By the Hong Kong police while trying to act as a kind of middleman to defuse some of the tension We saw on the streets of Hong Kong in 2019 and 2020 Unfortunately failing to defuse those tensions and Ted. I guess sadly fled Hong Kong last year facing multiple Some clearly politically motivated prosecutions We can talk about that in a minute to initially seek sanctuary in Europe and the UK But then decided in March to move to Australia to extend I guess a kind of a new position trying to advocate for Hong Kong and Hong Kongers in Australia Today we're going to be discussing Beijing's intensifying crackdown on Hong Kong which intensifies depressingly by the day And discussing where the city's democracy movement goes from here But before we get into that I want to ask a bit about your story Ted Um, why did you decide to leave your your home? That's a really long story Anyway, thanks for inviting me and I'm honored to be here to talk to you the reason that I Had to leave Hong Kong is that Hong Kong has totally changed Hong Kong is not no longer Hong Kong Not like the Hong Kong we knew before after 2019 freedom movement and after the introduction of the national security law Because in Hong Kong we use that freedoms even it's not a democracy I would say a high degree of freedoms and we could chance slogans We could take it to the streets streets demonstrations assemblies but in after 2019 after the national security law They became impossible and people like me and on the opposition camp of freedom side of Hong Kong or for the Hong Kong's politics and all the dissents Were are now not tolerated at all. So parliamentarians are Thrown to jails because the things they've sat in chamber in Parliament because they people like me participated in strict demonstrations standing with young protesters and They put charges against us criminal charges national security charges so I knew that if I stayed in Hong Kong I would face decades of jail time and perhaps life imprisonment and To me and to many in Hong Kong. I would say a dare say jail time is not scary It's not the most frightening but What's scary is that losing our freedoms and then no one can speak up for Hong Kong's anymore in the future so Hong Kong's voices cannot be heard because when even journalists expelled for expat our journalists and Local media is our controlled then we will become just like normal Chinese city and To the to more or more to the extreme to the light North Korea without the world hearing us So I feel that it's the need of leaving Hong Kong even though it's fake. It's a painful decisions I left with a very heavy heart But I felt I felt responsible and I still feel responsible of doing so for Hong Kong And I mean how many charges or cases we face in at that time when you left at the time when I left I was facing nine criminal charges for example Preverting the court the course of justice for my participation in In the streets they accused me for covering up the crimes that protesters stand by Standing in front of them and also, but there are charges against me For contempt of legislature, which is very ridiculous as the legislator myself and what I Said about what the things that I said and to act the protest They were just like holding up signs at my seat and in the chamber and not obeying the the president the prohibiting legislators order and resisting security guards of the of the Legislature very ridiculous ones Nine charges, so I was on bail so and I left Hong Kong because I received invitations by Danish Panamitarians who invited me for international meetings So and at that point your passport you had hatch yet to surrender it to the to the court or to the police is that right? So you almost needed to organize the event in Denmark as a way to leave without that You'd basically been sitting in prison now in Hong Kong. Basically everyone's Facing criminal charges Would have their passport confiscated and so yes I my passport once was confiscated by the court, but then I Did have a track record of flying around the globe and talk about climate change And so at that time my Danish Panamitarian friends invited me to to their country to to join international meeting and that's why at that time The court and the police were convinced that oh, it's only your regular Routines, so they let me go and that's why they granted me back my passport So maybe I was just lucky Yeah And I think after that the Hong Kong authorities said both that they want to pursue you here and wherever and also even talked about Trying to prosecute those Danish parliamentarians for kind of colluding to damage national security or something on those lines Yes, and my Danish friends who invited me actually told me it happened that the Chinese regime the Hong Kong regimes actually made a formal request to the Danish enforcement To the police Requesting that they are parliamentarians who invited me should be prosecuted and should be extradited and it is so Disrespectful and the one can't imagine that it's happening. It's Wolf-warriors kind of diplomacy and It's not yourself, but you know what I was a journalist in Hong Kong and an author from 2015 2019 I interviewed pretty much every Pro-democracy member of the Legislative Council and many other activists fighting for Democracy or their rights in Hong Kong and pretty much all those people with any prominence who I knew then and now either in jail Or in exile with almost no Exceptions which is just yeah, it's remarkable how quickly and how kind of deep the cuts to Hong Kong's autonomy and and rights have been But be at a personal level like how hard was it to leave Your home, I mean, I guess you're not just leaving kind of the fight behind for democracy explicitly But like your family your friends your way of life. I mean how difficult is that it's very very difficult and I grew up in Hong Kong all my life even though I spent three years of study in Canada And that's the only time I left Hong Kong and then I return and I've been Fighting so very hard with my comrades with my party colleagues with all the activists in Hong Kong's I can't remember how many times we marched together in the streets of Hong Kong for democracy and freedom and We did it like Five six times a year so and I can't I can't also Recalled how many times we we fought in the chamber of the Parliament With speeches and with all the physical physical struggles and with all the young people in Hong Kong in 2019 so they really are my my comrades and It's very depressed depressing to see them Being thrown to jail Detained and the assets frozen. It's on a literally every day basis So I read the news every day. It's it's painful and it's not like Very distant It's not like they for my home many Hong Kongers. They are the representatives of the people But they are my friends. I I know their families. I know their kids. Yeah, the kids play with my kids. So It's very painful, but then Also, it's not easy for my family and especially my parents. They follow me here and At their age, it's harder to adapt to a new life and with the language barrier and New environment climate. So it's totally totally new pitch and what's Painful or what's heavy the most is that As I talked to quite many Hong Kongers here they they will talk about going back to Hong Kong and see the families to taste the food and To refresh their memories of Hong Kong even they live here, but that's the thing I can't do and I don't know for how long I will I will be staying here But then my memories of Hong Kong by loved ones my favorite places and would just fade away As time goes by it's very sad to think about that it is It's sad and there's no escaping that And What and what prompted the move to Australia specifically? So I know that at first you in Denmark and then you went to the UK I believe so what made you come here, which wasn't an easy thing given that the rigorous border controls in place with Covid and everything else Yeah, and it's a difficult choice actually, so I struggled and and talked to a lot of people and I also considered the The international situations Yes, I spent three months in London at the UK and then I took the time and opportunity to meet quite many planetariums there and activists and Also my comrades there people like Nathan Law and quite other Hong Kong Hong Kongers in exile so I We had a lot of discussions and I understood Their future plans what their future plans are and then I made up my mind because I understand that since they are More UK based and Europe based and they are quite quite a few number a number of them and I also was in contact with the other comrades and other politicians in the South in North America and They are doing also so well organized and already on track And so my idea was to spread Hong Kong's message in different part of the globe and so I so I was looking at Australia New Zealand's and They are among the five eyes and important strata strategically and With large number of Hong Kong Hong Kongers large diaspora community, so I I believe that I I Was responsible to fill the gap to be there and to get the people Hong Kongers here organized and also, I believe it's it's important that strategically to Lobby planetariums and government officials here because Australia is a Important trade partner with with China. So there's room for me to talk more on China China policy And what do you think you can realistically achieve here? I know you've only been in Australia a few months thus far, but what do you think you can achieve and also what do you think? Australia can and should do about what's happening in Hong Kong It's obviously very difficult for any outside power to influence Xi Jinping's regime So we are what do you want to achieve and what do you think Australia can can do? I Wouldn't say I want to put Australia to test but the fact that I'm allowed here is Hasn't has an implication on the Australian government on whether The Australia will continue to be on the freedom side and so I'm I'm grateful of course During even covert time. I was given a visitor visa so that I can enter and on top of that I was given an exemptions to to come in covert time and So and an Australian government even facilitated my flight. So it's not an easy task But of course I I would wish that the Australian government Take stronger and stronger Concrete actions because I could see I can see that the Morrison government is supportive and is vocal on Hong Kong's issues and I'm grateful for that and But then if you compare the measures being Taken by its other countries from among five eyes if you look at US who took the initiatives in all the sanctions individually and with all the executive orders of Banning Chinese companies operating in the in the countries and if you look at the UK of giving most generous BNO visas and safe havens for more many Hong Kongers to go to To flee from the terror of CCP and If you compare them Australians has only given student visa extending student visa. It's not benefiting a lot of Hong Kongers and So I wish that Australia can have more concrete actions Of course an Australian Australian government doesn't have the tool of sanctioning because they doesn't have the law and I wish that The activity act can be prioritized So that it has them to tool to punish the wrongdoers human rights Abuses to be in line with other countries to take really concrete actions We know that Australia's relationship with China is already in a very bad place Despite it being at least previously an important trade partner Obviously many trade sanctions out of Australia's facing and I guess some people would say look the relationship is bad enough Why do we need to do anything to help Hong Kong or I guess they would say the same about you know the week is in Xinjiang. It's not not our problem. We're just gonna make our own situation worse There's no benefit there for the Australian people So why should why should people care about Hong Kong and what why should Australia be willing? Why should Australia pay a price? You know potentially in terms of its relationship with China to to you know fight for the rights for people in a city That's ultimately quite far away where what Australia does at the end of the day probably won't be very impactful Yeah, that's a question. That's definitely needs a clear answer and I get the questions quite often honestly here and I I was just put very very simple questions to Not just parliamentarians and officials, but ordinary Australian citizens would they Want Australia to be on the freedom camp on the freedom side on the right side of history or be an ally or a business and trading partner with CCP with Authoritarian governments who is bootling brutally Who have brutal crackdown on Hong Kong's so which side to Australian people want to be on and I think it's simple and Australian values is about freedom. It's about democracies and I Just don't think that these important universal values can be in any way compromised not in Australia not in other parts of the world, so It's important to Made it clear the message is that I'm like for people like me I'm not advocating a total boycott or disconnections close down all the businesses with China but think about the degree or the line when For example If universities in Australia they are not speak up for academic freedom because they Care too much about the intake of their China England Chinese students as that main source of incomes That's why they will be willing to be silent in face of Persecutions by the CCP on home on Hong Kong into the Chinese Would that be Australian value, right? If business says construction companies They they are willing to be silent because they have the constructions opportunities and infrastructures in belt and road initiatives and Would that be Australian values? I just don't think that is so I don't think Australians will be proud of their countries their country if Their country is submissive or can be Self-sensory themselves and to be willing to be Kind of controlled economically by the superpower. I don't think Australians will be proud of their countries. So I wish that I Understand that economic interests and economy is important for people's everyday life But there are other ways to work around to be less reliant on on Beijing's economic markets, and I believe that Australian government can be wise enough to do that And I want to go back a bit You know to Hong Kong into what happened with the the unprecedented protests of 2019 into 2020, which I guess Spark the huge crackdown in a sense There's obviously been a vicious circle in the last decade if you like of kind of people feeling under pressure from Beijing protest movements and then more kind of repression coming after us which triggers more Protests and but what was it? I mean you out on the streets talking to a lot of young people and protesting as well in your own way We're what motivated people to be out on the streets kind of risking so much Which and now they've lost a lot since then if they paid a really high price, but what was really driving that do you think? I believe that The young people they felt very desperate They felt that it's their last chance of fighting if they if they lose then It could be that they lose forever. You could never win again. So I don't agree. Of course social movements can be in long runs and I mean a long battle, but young people really desperate about speaking up and at at the time they they grew up and it was the time that Hong Kong is under Titan controlled and that They felt that even the system that the legislature and and the court is Is controlled all by CCP and there's no justice in this into society and and on the other hand they they got nothing to lose and Since they were given the opportunity anyway to be to be in charge to run the society If even they go to vote those representatives people like me can't do anything in the parliament anyway For the past 24 years It seems to them that we we couldn't achieve what they really wanted a true genuine democracy one-man one-boat system so So why not we and also they've looked at look back to the history is that Hong Kongers have tried different means From the very early time of the handover. We joined politics We trusted in the system in the electoral systems and we changed policies inside parliament We tried that but to no avail. We tried peaceful demonstrations lot times medium people joined and to no avail And we tried civil disobedience with Unbearable movements didn't didn't win so why not try harder more physical confrontations and They believe that's the way to go and and I agreed and we have to Confront the two regimes. I believe that democracy just doesn't Go to us by by mercy of TCP So we have to fight And as you said, it's really hard to predict kind of the crests and the troughs of social movements But I mean, do you think it's right those young people's worst fear in a sense that we're probably unlikely to see Another big mass social movement in Hong Kong again for the foreseeable future given that the costs of protesting both you know in terms of potential jail time being beaten up by the police other things are so high and all the Avenues for for resistance in ledges of council and elsewhere have been cut off So do you think it's true in a sense that we probably won't ever see another massive social movement like that again for the for the foreseeable future foreseeable future, of course Yes, maybe we might not see something similar always 2019 protest but then the spirit still here and The spirit of the movement to free the movement 2019 and we also we also have a slogan called be water so People are water people Can be powerful water can be powerful, but we are also flexible. So we Sometimes we divide sometimes we rejoin and I think it's time for us to be water to stay calm reserve our power and energy and I believe that Given time some point in the future By triggered by some political incidents international situations People definitely will rise against as long as our spirits still high and Our hearts are still angry. We have not given up We just need some international hands and we just need to transform our struggles into other forms Like last two weeks and Hong Kongers Were not work. We're not allowed to have a set public assemblies In commemoration with the June 4 tenement massacre, but then I believe that hundreds of thousands people held a candle in their hands and roam around in the city in memory of the events and That can be totally banned by the regimes. So these powers are transformed into other forms and that's Would be the new face of Hong Kong's protest And in terms of what's happening in Hong Kong was we said at the start the pace of the crackdown is really relentless So just yesterday we had hundreds of police raiding the offices of Apple Daily leading Pro-democracy but also just entertainment Newspaper in Hong Kong arresting journalists and executives and this was the first time that the new national security law had been used explicitly to target Journalists for their journalistic work and not not other aspects We also saw the government come out and basically describe these people as criminals although they've only been arrested So technically you normally call them suspects, but but anyway that every day basically there's something happening like that There's someone new being arrested or a new case What do you think you're trying to put yourself in Xi Jinping's shoes if you can I mean what what's his end game? I mean he's ultimately and the communist party is calling the shots not the Hong Kong government What do they want to see in Hong Kong? Do they want it to be just like Shenzhen another mainland city and maybe more like Macau where things look a bit different on the surface But there's total control Or is it even worse than being in the mainland because it's kind of an area for the CCP of weakness and resistance So they have to actually have a much more tougher Securitized kind of policy that looks almost something more like what we've seen in the past in Tibet or Xinjiang If I were Xi Jinping I would think That now my emperor is strong enough economically, we are already superpowers and Most countries in the world needs to co-toe to me. So anyway and not not like in the past that I want to keep Hong Kong to maintain its freedoms and so the West would admire it look onto it and Xi Jinping would think that we still got investment in Hong Kong. We still can earn money We can be like Singapore and take total control and why would I tolerate those unpleasant descent and that could be a danger to my power in the future so I believe that China has grown too arrogant on that and too confident and It would be easy for For superpower to crack down and to make everyone leave and I don't think Xi Jinping cares anymore when When most Hong Kongers from from the older generation or my generation all leave Hong Kong and we'd be replaced By their own people to mainlanders and now I believe it's in the in the middle of doing it and That's the the rationale. I think that's what what Xi Jinping is thinking about I mean, if we're honest, it's not just about kind of replacing Hong Kong is because part of the problem is that Hong Kong I guess has always been divided right we saw in all the different elections and polls Maybe there's 55 or 60 percent of Hong Kongers who in some sense is a broadly pro-democracy And then you see you know a significant chunk almost half of the city is either kind of explicitly in favor of Communist party or just wants to live and work, you know With part of the PRC in a more harmonious way and I guess we saw that on the streets of Hong Kong and yesterday too Most of those 500 police outside the Apple Daily offices and inside were Hong Kongers So what I mean, what's kind of going through their mind in this divided city? I mean, what why do you think it is that some people, you know Similar background to you as similar experiences would take almost like the opposite view from you about the future of their city, too Yeah, it's a it's a good question speaker I sometimes have doubts, but why some Hong Kongers would turn their back on democracy and freedoms and just to accept That all all the sense can be eliminated and continue to work for and to support the regimes I would say they of course, they're not majority the majority is very clear clearly shown In opinion polls and of course in the last genuine elections in 2019 at the district council local elections In which the Democrats had a landslide win and also I believe that's what touch Touch the Beijing nerve that should be cracking down Hong Kong's totally but then I would say force for many they just need to survive they don't particularly support dictatorship and Quite many of them even can be sympathetic to people like that like me like us But then they need to survive they They need their life to go on and when all the opportunities Controlled and provided by the CCP and what can they do and I receive that quite a lot. I'm I'm quite Impartial in the adjustment middle, but I just need to continue my life Those are the people but then the other part of reason is that quite many people can be brainwashed and you can see after the new national security law and The regime is changing making changes in the educations changing tax books changing history books and to make people really believe that being Oppositions or to be Descend it's I'm patriotic and which is not right It's it was just a moral maybe the newer generation to really believe in that so they are there to live And you think that that will succeed so I guess in the past there were similar efforts I mean back we go back in the history of the protest movements I think one of the the foundational ones of the modern era was the 2012 Scholarism protests which were against this push to bring in sort of mainland or communist style Patriotic education so there was actually a big reaction against that I mean do you think people will still react against these things or do you think you know younger generations who don't know will grow up and Think differently about about their relationship with the People's Republic of China and the Communist Party Well, I don't believe that the regime will succeed in really changing people's heart But it might succeed in changing people's behavior So that there are certain topics that's defined as red lines and we shouldn't cross and then teacher I think we've crossed most of them already today. Yes, of course so teachers wouldn't be speaking about it in school and and of course they become Taboo and Student wouldn't talk about it But in at home their parents will talk about it and they know exactly what the truth is So they can't bring wash Everyone's of course it can't And talking about kind of the next generation I mean one thing That I find kind of quite concerning. It's just the number of people who've been Arrested and facing prosecution in Hong Kong. So I think more than 10,000 Arrested during and since the 2019 Protests, I think more than 2,500 have been prosecuted so far and Hong Kong only has a prison population of 7,000 people So even if it's just hundreds of people, I think probably hundreds probably have already been jailed already But you're potentially looking at thousands of people adding to a 7,000 people in prison What happens to this new generation of people who are effectively Political prisoners kind of do they come out and become kind of new Martyrs for the cause. I mean just I guess some of those people are struggling as we speak in prison And maybe they just give up hope altogether and back away But what happens like to the fabric of a society when you have so many people criminalized for Expressing thoughts that at least half of the city chefs I believe the regime doesn't care and I've heard personally that they even have plans to build more prisons for the poor political prisoners and with the introduction of the law of Binding people from leaving Hong Kong's laws already be introduced effective In the coming first of August the Hong Kong itself. It's a big prison people can't leave The region has complete control on who can leave and it can ban anyone from boarding any planes or or or boats So it's already a big prison. So in terms of what? young people Will become after jail times. It's very sad. It's not I would say it's worse than having a typical criminal record in in other crimes because you are labeled as Unpatriotic and that labels follows you for life in Hong Kong and you can't leave you can't go to other countries And so think think about when they need to find jobs and with organizations They will be on the black black list black listed. It's very miserable. So So that goes nowhere and of course for those young people They they wouldn't give up. They would continue their fight So so it's like it's more like a circle that goes back to the streets and you get arrested against and they got more more radical and So I don't think that it would be good governance at all. It can't achieve what what it wanted And I guess it's gonna be hard practically just to govern Hong Kong if people are so unhappy and I mean even in In mainland China, there's a kind of element of consent, right? That there's no obviously free of air elections But people to some extent have an understanding that the party is acting in their best interests at least on some key issues But especially on the economy, but in Hong Kong, you don't even have that like how do you even manage the city? Without any any consent, I guess it's gonna be very difficult Yes, I can and Of course, it's not a good thing to do but if you look at Singapore, right and I don't think there's democracy at all but With economies still running operating and still investments coming a society can run So I believe that Beijing is trying to run a single Singaporean model in Hong Kong's giving some degree of openness and some limited degree of freedoms in markets but with total elimination of dissents and complete control politically and refusal to progress with political reform and I It it's might be the plan of the regimes But still I believe without the democracy without checks and balances the dictatorship always makes mistakes and at that time and people rise again and Looking for comparisons in history, I guess there's an obvious one to me in the sense Which is what happened in 1989 with the activists and dissidents who left China to come to Australia in the US and in Europe after the crackdown following the Tiananmen Square protests and massacre and Obviously one of the things that happened then was many of the dissidents lost their connection to their audiences back in China They ended up spending more time in some cases fighting with each other Rather than fighting with the communist parties. How from a kind of position in exile. How do you sustain the movement? Yeah, that's our Questions, I'm looking deep into because I I want that to be our lesson to our generations of exiled because We we want to continue to fight on we don't want to lose our influence our power We want to make the call so Hong Kongers can gather together and be a stronger power But then we understand that It can be difficult where as time goes by and as we might not be able to make really concrete changes but I think we are different from the 1989 generations of exiles in that It's easier for us to communicate among each other and with back to the people in Hong Kong with technologies so I I'm very keen on Keeping Connections and communications with what's what's happening in Hong Kong and my my fellow's friends in Hong Kong So that we we want them to know that We are not distant from them. We are still one of them We still feel the pain and I share my pain with them every day and With that communications that gives me Stripe and motivation to to go on and it's easier for my generation as well to survive economically and With it's easier to get our financial support from from Hong Kong with technologies It's easier for us to be more transparent financially so that they know We are still under some kind of accountability. So I I'm more confident that We will learn a lessons and turn a brighter page for Hong Kong as an exile But I guess I know from talking to Nathan or the one of the problems of this situation is that because of the national security Law and the fact that you're now overseas actually by you even just talking to your family members or friends Let alone engaging in political activity with fellow Hong Kongers back home You could in a way be kind of endangering them because they could be accused of colluding with your now In our foreign force a hostile foreign force, I guess being based here. Yeah, but that's very true and That can be risky so we take precautions and With technologies, but of course it can be a hundred percent safe, but then there are different ways of doing it more securely and I believe that It's the risk that we need to take because now in overseas and freedoms we can say the things that we want to say There are times we need to make calls for Hong Kongers to do something and to do struggle and Of course in a safe way but then without without the opportunity to make those calls and It would be hard for them to make the call themselves It's would be more dangerous for them to make the call locally for example in upcoming so-called elections in Hong Kong the planetary elections and It's now completely controlled by Beijing's and Now everyone's who wish to be a candidate needs to get nomination from Beijing So it's totally Beijing totally runs the show But then what the option left for Hong Kong is to vote informal to vote a blind vote But the regime sees that and now a legislation has been passed that's voting Asking people and advocating for a blank vote or informals Can be itself Criminal act so the Hong Kongers cannot make those calls and you have to be us who make the call So still it's necessary for us to keep connections to understand what Hong Kong Hong Kongers think and then we can say what they want to say internationally and in a safe place I'm gonna come to you all for questions in a sec I'll just have one more question for Ted, which is a difficult one. I'm afraid to end up It's obviously very unlikely that Xi Jinping is gonna wake up tomorrow and realize that democracy is actually a great idea for Hong Kong after all But what's what's your best case for how Hong Kongers might? Secure their you know democratic rights and their autonomy one day. How do you think? Sort of looking out I guess to the next 10 20 years and maybe after that when Xi Jinping's maybe stepped down How might this happen? not too difficult for me and I think it's more Confirmed or assured to many Hong Kongers that we don't only wish to have Xi Jinping Changed we don't only hope for another more open-minded leader to run China we want CCP to step down from power and I personally believe that might be the only way to go for Hong Kongers and I won't go as far as to talk about like for example independence of Hong Kong might not be Practical pragmatic for Hong Kongers at least now but then going towards the goal of having the power deserved at least I'm not satisfied going back to What we were a half democracy after all the brutal crackdowns After all that we have lost. We want a genuine one with genuine democracies and Of course, we we don't believe I don't believe that CCP would give us that so it's it would be it will take a lot of struggle a lot of fright a lot of confrontations Until it steps out from power and that would be the best end game Okay, well we have about 15 or 20 minutes for questions So if you just stick your hands up and Andrew will come to you with a mic And if you could just tell us your name and affiliation if you have one think we've got one Hi, my name is Emma Rossi. I'm a former journalist and I'm a friend of Human Rights Watch My question is what your recommendation would be for Those of us that have friends and loved ones who might be working in Hong Kong for an ex, you know as an expat and Whether they should be doing something What that what should what that should pay? Yes, that's a very useful questions actually there Hong Kong is still an international city even We've lost almost all of our freedom, but there are quite many expats still working in Hong Kong's Australians and other nationals and they are mostly professionals and I believe that it's useful and to speak up in their professional bodies and to to monitor and to Speak up for the best practices and guidelines for their for their professions because now CCP the Hong Kong regime is attacking Every profession and to take away their rights for example the journalist and also the bankers and And also all the licensing bodies professional licensing bodies is taking away their rights so it's their job to defend the right professionally and To to be adhered to and uphold for professional guidelines. I think that itself is useful against the erosion of power and avoid giving more and more power and so that Professions will be an allied or be a manipulating tools for the CCP and also it's relatively Saver for Other nationals who are in Hong Kong from political persecutions. Of course, there's a risk that they would Just catch everyone's and randomly and as hostages But still it's safer for for expats for Australians in Hong Kong to Speak up this on social media and to be in or joined civil societies In Hong Kong support them. It's relatively safer And if that can be done that will be also best for Hong Kong's fight for freedom Thanks Ted. My name is Warwick Jones And I'm the Australian federal police visiting fellow here at the Lowe Institute and over the years. I've worked with a number of Hong Kong police and trained with them as well and There was struck me as an organization built on the British tradition of democratic policing and My sense knowing a number of them is that there probably is quite a dilemma for them at the moment in terms of How they're doing their work? I'd be interested to see what your thoughts are on the legitimacy of the Hong Kong police force going forward Yes, thank you for the question. That's a very interesting ones. It struck me as well. I couldn't believe our police once prestigious internationally and respected by the people has turned into Something like I would say mobs and gangsters. It's almost almost there and I believe one reason is that they are so used by the regimes and They can be very brainwashed in their peer groups that they are really fighting against Rioters for justice. It's really for the good for Hong Kong. They are so brainwashed and on the other hand they are Wouldn't say would it be the word infiltrated by The CCP forces So I understand that they they are trained by somehow Liberation Army and Mainland Chinese police So they had trainings together. So they that changed their mindsets and I Don't know. It's what's the best way to have them back To have them back like when they were before But then For international collaborations, it's really for three countries and Western countries to have a clear cut with police not to provide any weapons not to provide any trainings and Be vocals To say that or under even under international standards riot police shouldn't shoot people like that It's not according to international safety protocols and it's a clear abuse of human rights. So if police organizations In other countries in Australia can speak up that will be very very useful and at least for for those who really believe they are They are doing justice to To really strike them that they are not Ted hi, thanks very much I lived in Hong Kong for 15 years. I was fascinated to come along and he talked. I think all of us All of us knew who see why long was Sorry, it's late. I'm just a Hong Kong former Hong Kong resident Most of us knew who see why long was, you know, pretty nasty fairly greedy guy bad father, you know all those things Carrie was expected to be an improvement if we look back at when she was first elected How do you think Who is Carrie Lam now and and how does she not walk the streets in shame at what she produced as a leader? I mean a disastrously bad tenure Yeah That's that's also the other part that struck me and I Couldn't believe Carrie Lam will turn into like another person and I still remember as at the time 2016 when I was first elected to the parliament and we would have regular closed door meetings with Carrie Lam and She wasn't like that in in that time at that time and we could have conversations And I remember telling telling her that among the party members but in the meeting rooms I have the less Confidence and trust in the government. So please behave and in the future and not to let Hong Kong's freedom deteriorate and We can have competition station like that, but I believe that's In the in past few years when The attitude of Beijing change the Xi Jinping Xi Jinping's attitude changed She had to change the strategy And she might not have a full control anymore on Hong Kong It's not her that's running Hong Kong so it will be Beijing running it directly and she being a puppet and Of course, I it's hard to be don't understand why people's willing to be a puppet. I just don't I can't comprehend but that's what's happened and now she's not Our Carrie Lam like she was anymore and That that's terrifying to see how people change because of political change But I would say that the people won't change the people like me We will never change. We see what justice is and we'll fight on forever But so is that to see yeah, it's how the outside of humanity Thank you Thank you Ted, my name is Brue Williams, and I'm a friend of human rights watch You say the endgame ultimately for you and your movement is For the CCP to to dissolve in what would be a new era, I suppose What I'd like to know is is your movement gaining any traction on the streets and ground in mainland China and and Yeah, I know that's probably hard to To know but I do you have connections there? Do you do you feel that you're gaining any traction? That's a very valid point that I that's the comments I get from time to time that Hong Kong even as an international city, but it's only seven million people but look at the population of China so Xi Jinping's Attitude and all the crackdown on Hong Kong's is to its audience is not Hong Kong It's the whole population of China. That's why it's confident and it's willing to Give up Hong Kong's freedom So it's important to be connected with the mainland Chinese to To get them on board, but it's a very very difficult task and over the years With so-called one-country-two system in the past it it kind of worked in the sense that we Hong Kongers and mainlanders have very different way of life and we the mainlanders have very limited access to Information flow in Hong Kong's it can watch Hong Kong's news But when it comes to politics and then it suddenly will just pause on their TV So they don't know what's happening in Hong Kong and we and there's border still somehow and from Hong Kong to mainland China so Hong Kongers and mainlanders can be very separated in reality, so It's better when we are overseas for example in Australia We can try to connect them and we find support in allies in Many of their groups and they support Hong Kong. I'm grateful for that But to influence the massive populations in Hong Kong in mainland China. It's a very very difficult task. We are looking up at ways using technologies perhaps To penetrate that but it will take a very long time and They are so I would say very much with their educations That we should Should not speak against the government Otherwise, you're not good citizens and loyal not patriots. It's very hard to have breakthrough on that It takes generations, but we try hard on that Hi, thanks guys. My name is Michael Cox. I'm a Hong Kong permanent resident work for South China Morning Post from 2011 to 2019 I Now write a weekly column for the Apple Daily for now I'm interested in the global reach of The national security law in the provision that a that authorities claim they can charge anybody anywhere It hasn't been enacted as yet, but I'm wondering what your thought obviously you've probably thought about it as many of us How do you think it will be used and maybe you could share some of your experience on how your Danish friends were? Have been affected Yes, the national security law has an extra territorial jurisdictions and That's quite troubling for for many not only Hong Kongers but also foreign nationals and but at least among the Hong Kong diaspora and For many Hong Kongers overseas you can see it's a fact in that for example back two years ago or last year and They are rallies there were rallies here in Australia and participated by massive number of Hong Kongers I believe that one in Sydney. We had more than three thousand people together Against the CCP regime in Hong Kong but then after the national security law and more and more people have to use face masks and hats and sunglasses and To hide the identities totally because Even those Hong Kongers in Australia. They have assets in and family members back in Hong Kong They don't want them to be in danger and when as they go back to Hong Kong at border They can get very nervous with CCP know that I did protest against them So I believe it's the fear that's been spreading using the national security law and Yes, it's it's affecting People's behavior. So people are nervous and cautious and That that's a fact and for quite many foreign foreign nationals For examples if you have joined the Hong Kong protests here as Australians and Who outspoken you became a volunteer or an organizer of a rally in support of Hong Kong's freedoms At the time some point in the future you travel to Hong Kong's and wait as you enter the border You might get trouble Entering if you could get expelled and more than that you can be detained So it's possible With the national security law because it harms the state power of the CCP So that's that's the effect, but that's also something that way you have to overcome and I I means be water and you need to speak up, but then You need to be wise not to fall into the trap of CCP and then it in terms losing everyone and having everyone in jail and So I also in that sense I feel more responsible Because I can't go home anyway. My families are all here. I'll go very high-profile So to speak for those who are a bit nervous to speak and so I feel I have a bigger role now And those Hong Kong diaspora those in exiled bigger roles and I wish those Who have less connections with Hong Kong that wouldn't not like you have investments your family there Please speak up for Hong Kong so because Hong Kong people need to I think we have time for one more question Hello, this is page you from transfer workers union of Australia And as we discussed that Hong Kong's press freedom is dying down But I think Hong Kong still have a strong union movement. So my question is that do you think union movement is still a Sustainable battleground for pan-democracy in Hong Kong to express their ideal to expand the idea of Like democracy and freedom. Thank you. Yes. I I believe so. Thank you for the question and now Politics is not a way to go because we can't participate in an open and fair elections The half democracy we used to have is gone. So I personally believe in the civil society in people's power and I I that's my experience of being parliamentarians in the last four years and All the freedom movements what we call the anti extradition movements Beguns because the Hong Kong regime introduced an extradition bill that Hong Kongers can be extradited back to mainland China for criminal trials and I Remembered it's not as parliamentarians to block the bill from passing It's a young protesters in the streets and risking their lives and their the future for Hong Kong So it's the people's power in the streets in one million people's protests two million people's protests that really struck the world and Showed the world our spirits. So it's all about civil society and it's all about how we affect one person's mind and to spread the message and in turn affecting people's view and changing people's view and so union is a strong strong tool and to get all the workers united and of course, it's Even more powerful at the times when we know that The regime is using economic to rest in controlling To grassroot people so the grassroot people need to be organized and to be to stay firm That's striking pattern between having the work right and having the right protected And but still at the same time knowing what what and where justice is in Society and think about that without without freedom without a genuine freedom and Can we really speak of labor rights, right? And I think that's a prerequisite that we need to have freedom first. That's why But of course labor movements and unions. We are totally in line With you and and it's important to get them organized I want to thank you all for coming today Do keep an eye on our website for future events and research and I'm sure Ted will stick around for a few minutes if you want to talk But please join me first in giving him a round of applause