 to Fran Boyd, the executive director at Positive Money. Good afternoon to you, Fran. There was a suggestion today from a former economist at the Bank of Ireland that what is needed to prop up the economy and to prop up people's incomes is just to print money and put it directly into their bank accounts. Helicopter Money, as it's known. What do you think about that? So helicopter money has been an idea that's been getting traction for a few years. And we're kind of supportive of the two main areas that it talks about. There's a few different meanings by helicopter money. But generally, as you said, it's about getting money directly to citizens, so direct cash into citizens' pockets and households. And the second element of it is that it's financed by central bank funding, so monetary financing. And both of these have been talked about quite extensively, obviously, since the economic fallout of the pandemic has worsened. And they're both good ideas. If we look at the figures, there's been, I think, over 1.8 million people applying for universal credit. And we know that there's up to a five-week wait which can plunge people into debt, potentially poverty. And so in order to ensure households stay afloat through this and there's an incredible amount of uncertainty in the economic fallout in the weeks and months and potentially years to come, then getting money directly into households is going to be key. Fran, what do you think it is about the government package, which is unprecedentedly large, that's not working? Is it the transmission mechanism through the banks where it's just getting gummed up and not getting to those who need it? I mean, the government has taken some really key steps. We have to realise, I think, one in five workers are furloughed at the moment. So through the job retention scheme, that's really key that they're getting those funds. But we've got to also remember, the government was quite late to act in March. And actually, before that was announced, people were being made unemployed. That's also combined with the fact that we have very high numbers of insecure work, people on zero-hour contracts and low pay. And so this simple matter of the fact is that the schemes that they've unrolled haven't worked for everyone. And there was huge issues with the universal credit previously where many people were finding themselves waiting for five weeks, five weeks when you have to pay your rent, your bills, cover your food for your family. People are going to be in really difficult situations. And so unless we really look at creating a safety net for everyone, then we could see millions of people really go under that poverty line, which is quite a scary prospect. I was just going to ask though, I mean, the whole concept of helicopter money, it's quite a blunt instrument, isn't it? I mean, when you think about how to make it most effective, what level do you set it? I mean, how long do you have to keep spraying it around for it to work? I mean, you know, there are a lot of different economists saying it should be used for different things. And so, you know, a key number of economists say that actually, you know, it's about the central bank expanding its balance sheet, doing direct monetary financing. And it should really be, we should really wait to use it until we really want to boost demand when the economy ends, you know, when lockdown ends, and we really want to get people spending, if you like. So again, that's another kind of reason why it's argued for. But I totally agree that there's a lot of uncertainty, how much, how long. And that's why we should see really the government talking and thinking about this now, rather than waiting. Because as we saw Thursday, you know, the Bank of England said we're going to see at least a 14% contraction of the economy, which is incredibly severe. And that's a scenario, you know, we really don't know how bad this is going to get. But the Bank of England did also say, forgive me for interrupting, that the recovery will be quicker than what we saw after the great financial crisis. So I suppose the other concern is you do these expensive measures and then they end up putting inflation in the economy and then you've got another problem to deal with. I mean, they very much said this was a scenario, not a forecast. The many economists have kind of criticised saying they've been overly optimistic. I think, you know, what this pandemic is really making us all ask is, what's the point of the economy if it's not to protect people's lives, put their health and well-being first? And I think that, you know, what we're seeing is that many things are possible, things that we never would have dreamed the government doing have happened, whether that's funding people's jobs, so they can be furloughed, whether it's the Bank of England saying, we will do direct monetary financing. And so now I think when there is so much uncertainty, it's exactly the right time to be talking about all the options on the table. And I think helicopter money, getting those direct cash transfers to household has to be a key part of that mix. OK, Fran Boyle, really good to talk to you. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you.