 So as you know, Goldman Sachs is one of our platinum members, is one of the most active contributors to the foundation. Sir Han, before we get started, I heard you had an interesting day today. Can you tell us a bit more about what you're doing in New York City at the Chancellor's schools? Sure, yeah. Well, firstly, thank you for having me here. I love the fireplace. It reminds me of the holidays. It's very Christmas-y. So yeah, this week is Computer Science Education Week, and I had the opportunity to participate in an hour-of-code event at a public school in New York. So we had Marco Argenti, our CIO. And Belinda, who runs our engineering communications. We had Fred Wilson from ABC, as well as we had the Chancellor of New York Schools, David out there too. It was actually a really, really exciting event. The class we were in, the high school kids we were with, they took a robot and they were able to program it in like 20 minutes and have it chased down a maze and stuff, and it was just amazing to me to see how far introductory education has come in Computer Science. When I started, I was basically on a green screen CRT with a five and a quarter inch floppy disk, writing logo to start with, and it's cool to see that we've transitioned so far in such a short amount of time. That's fascinating. I think the aspect of talent is one that we touched on so much today. So I'm so glad, as a European, I don't think we do nearly enough in Europe to grow talent, but I'm always impressed here in the US. Since I botched your introduction, as I said, Goldman Sachs is a great contributor, but you're relatively new-faced in our community. Do you mind telling us a little bit more what you do at Goldman? Absolutely. So I work at Goldman Sachs, part of our engineering organization. I run our app foundry engineering team, which the portfolio is really focused on developer experience. So the portfolio is infrastructure to build and operate APIs at the firm, basically anything to do with mobile applications that Goldman Sachs creates, as well as our developer tooling and developer environment, so what our engineers use to write code and develop and ship code. Along with that, I also had our open source program and lead open source program office. Wow, that's a lot. And thank you for being an amazing contributor, enabling all of the contributors that work at Goldman. So on this note, you probably have heard today about Legend, but for those of you who are new to the community, Goldman made major buzz in 2020 when Legend got contributed to Finos, but really since then, I've seen a growing engagement across the board, not just in Finos, but really in many other projects in the Linux Foundation and even beyond many upstream projects, the importance of upstreaming. Can you tell us a bit more about what Goldman is contributing to? Yeah, sure. So obviously we open source Legend in 2020, a couple of years ago. Legend for those who don't know about it is data modeling. It's a full suite of data-related products. It's for data management, data modeling. It provides auto lineage, supports data discovery. It's a logical layer over your physical implementation of your data, so it's kind of like an abstraction layer that you can leverage in order to model as well as manage your data. It's actually based on technology that Goldman Sachs has been using in production for many, many, many years, and we open-sourced it because we wanted to give back this critical technology that we've been using that's given us so much value and enabled the community to start contributing and leveraging it. So Legend, it's obviously the open-source project, the internal version that we use. They're pretty much in lockstep and sync. But along with that, we've also been pretty active when it comes to engaging with other open-source projects. So Goldman's actually been in open-source for a long, long, long time. I don't think we did a great job talking about it. We open-sourced what was called GSCollection. It's now Eclipse Collections for Java. We have this project called GSQuant, which is a Python library for doing financial calculations. And we have other projects like Reladomo. That's kind of like an ORM and some other stuff out there. Along with Legend, we also contributed in open-source the project called Catch It, which is a security scanner. And I think this happened sometime last year, I believe. It took a little longer than we anticipated, but I think we managed to get it over the line. So these are projects we've been contributing to FinNOS, working with FinNOS as part of FinNOS in the fintech space. But we're also active contributors to a whole bunch of other projects. We've been contributing to Trino, to NixOS, to Kong, there's a bunch of other things we're contributing to anyway. I think the focus of me and my team is really making it easier for iEngineers to contribute to these projects to treat them as just no different than any internal code base that they might operate with. I think that's kind of the vision we're trying to achieve. That's so interesting. I remember when we started five years ago, this was a very different landscape in terms of upstream contributions. Actually, you mentioned Eclipse Collections. Donald might be here, Don Raab, which I think was the original contributor. So we talked about today a lot about both the developer, the technology value, as well as the business value of open source and just more broadly, the value of open collaboration as an industry. I'd love for you to tell us your thoughts and just about what sort of a large and sort of traditionally conservative firm has undergone massive transformation in the last years on both sides of this equation. So maybe let's start from the developer side. What's the developer value of engaging in open source? Yeah, so actually let me tell you a personal anecdote to get started here. So prior to Goldman Sachs, I was working at a big technology company and we were engaged with a lot of open source because it was part of the product strategy that we had decided on, open source first and engaged customers through that channel. And so when I told my peers that, okay, I'm moving on to Goldman Sachs, one of the first questions I used to get was, but banks don't do open source, so what are you going to do? And so that was a question that was top of mind for me. And so when I did join Goldman Sachs, that was kind of the first thing I started exploring, are we actually using open source here? What's the presence here? And I was actually very pleasantly surprised to first of all learn about all the contributions we've been making. I got engaged with Finos actually for the first time and met Gap for the first time in the open sourcing process itself. But I think as I was exploring, it was pretty clear to me Goldman Sachs actually runs on open source. We use 50,000 plus open source packages. We are contributing, we just don't talk about it as much. We're members of a whole bunch of foundations, Linux Foundation obviously, but even Linux Foundation, Finos, CNCF, the GraphQL Foundation, OpenSSF, GreenSky, there's a whole bunch of things that we're part of as well and we are actively contributing. So it's really awesome for me to see that. And so from a developer value perspective, really what we're trying to enable is, Goldman Sachs ultimately is a bank, it's an unregulated industry. So there is always some friction when it comes to building software or open source or not. So the focus really is how can we reduce this but how can we also enable innovation for our engineers in a safe, secure manner while also complying with all the rules and regulations that we've complied with. And that's really what the focus has been from a developer experience and developer value perspective. It's enabling engineers to engage with open source both from a contribution as well as from a consumption perspective but at the same time comply with the regulations we have to from an industry perspective. Well, I spend my whole life in developer experience. I actually really never coded myself. I was more of a release manager, always enabling and enjoying other people to be successful in developing and so this is really music to my heart. But we know that a lot of the technical investments in this industry are really sort of underpinning at sort of a very concrete and expected, short-term ROI from a business perspective. So I'd be interested as one of the firms that's really engaging strategically with open source. What a firm like yours sees open source enabling in terms of your core business. Yeah, and I think we use open source. We're actually using it as a foundation for quite a few things that we're leveraging. So I'll give you an example from the space that I own and I operate. Our API platform is built on top of open source technology. Whether it's Nginx or Envoy, there's open source libraries and solutions that we're leveraging that we built on top of. And again, the reason is these are best of breed. These have been proven. They have a lot of expertise. And there's many eyeballs focused on it, making sure these are the best in class products that you would want to leverage. They approach the problem space differently, but again, that's great because there's no one-size-fits-all solution for every problem out there. Part of our mobile platform, we operate SDK. We provide SDKs and services for all the Goldman Sachs applications. But again, a lot of them are based on open source libraries that will leverage the Swift or it's Kotlin based or something. Foundationally, we're leveraging open source and then we're adding the Goldman Sachs secret sauce that we would need in order to comply with rules, regulations, anything that we might have to handle in that case. And what this really helps, where it really helps us is to accelerate time to market, but it also helps us reduce risk because we know these libraries that we're building on have been proven from a production expertise and usage perspective. So that helps from a foundational perspective. There's an element of trust that we can build on the right software and we can leverage the right software as we're building on top of it. Where we take these, once we've identified, so we actually go through a proper build versus buy process. We actually follow the working backwards process where we'll figure out the jobs to be done, we'll talk to customers, we'll put together a memo and shapeify the PRFIC or narrative. And so there's a lot of thought that goes behind how we want to approach solving a problem. And as part of that, one of the decisions we make is whether we buy versus build and the buy part could be open source software. It doesn't always have to be a vendor solution. So in that case, there's a lot of thinking that goes behind foundationally what we leverage before we build on top of it. And we treat open source with exactly the same care. Part of adopting open source is obviously you don't want to just be the consumer. You want to contribute back too. So as we find bugs, we might want features. We engage with maintainers when necessary. We want to push those changes to the upstream instead of just having a proprietary fork of that project. And so we're trying to be much more engaged from a community perspective as well as drive open source projects across the board. And then where that's born fruit is from the commercial side, we have offerings like transaction banking APIs where we have customers like Stripe leveraging them. Or we have our credit cards, a credit card platform where we have customers like GM and other card providers that are leveraging them. And these are all foundationally, if you dig all the way down the stack, they're all foundationally built on proven trusted open source libraries that have been out there for a while. And they're powering these large complex workloads for us. I'm so excited to see the whole arc of going from developers to literally services, the running production around some of the largest businesses and customer delivery value to your customers. I think two years ago, maybe three years ago, we were here on stage with Neil Pawar, who used to be the CTO at AQR at that time. And you talked about build versus buy and it started suggesting that we're sort of moving past this old notion of build versus buy more towards like a leverage versus invent. If you put open source in the mix, then that becomes another way of acquiring versus having to invent novel technology instead of the secret sauce. So I'm really excited for that. Now maybe a little bit of a shameless plug here, but we talked a lot today about the value of open source, both on the business and developer side, but what about foundations? I mean, we heard this morning from Sarah Chips at LinkedIn. Another pretty good shameless plug for Phoenix, but you guys have been a founding member and a planning member, of course, of Phoenix and as you said, you're involved in so many other foundations in the LF. Can you tell us a bit more, what value do you see in being part of this foundation? Yeah, and like you said, we've been part of Phoenix since pretty much day one. So I think it's been a great collaboration between Phoenix and Goldman Sachs, and we're really excited about it. Definitely want to keep it going. I personally represent Goldman Sachs on the Graphical Foundation, as well as the Phoenix Board as well. So to me, what I think foundations bring is they bring you this focused value. It's this ecosystem and this community you get that's focused on a particular area. So take Phoenix, for example. The focus is on financial providers, really. And so the software that you're building is oriented towards these specific use cases. There's a niche, but it's a broad niche. A niche sounds tiny, but in this case, it's like a super broad space, which is also very critical to multiple economies on this planet. So what a foundation like Phoenix would provide is this kind of an ecosystem. It brings together like-minded people that are focused on the same problem, and it gives you this opportunity to engage with the community that's actually aware of the problems you're trying to solve or the capabilities that you're expecting to provide or build in this case. So that's definitely a really important value that you would get being part of a foundation. The other example I want to bring up is around software supply chain security. And that's top of mind for a lot of technology professionals at this point. And it's for very good reasons. It's a very critical avenue that you need to protect against. And starting all the way from the U.S. government, the White House recognized this. They issued an executive directive. And one of the outcomes of that was OpenSSF that was founded a few weeks, a few months later after that. Goldman Sachs joined OpenSSF because, again, we see the value. We see the criticality of this problem. We want to participate from both from an engagement perspective as well as from an expertise perspective and help drive software supply chain security for the industry as a whole. Obviously with the focus on finance because that's where we are. But we see being part of the foundation as a benefit for the industry as a whole because we can benefit from best practices that other firms are putting in place as they solve some of these problems. But we can also contribute back some of the learnings that we've got running our software within a regulated financial industry, industrial environment. Fascinating and I'm glad you touched on OpenSSF security because that is something that is top of mind. In fact, I'm just going to close with a quick anecdote. You mentioned Goldman Sachs is a member of OpenSSF. I remember when my boss, Jim Zemlin, the executive director of the Linux Foundation was fundraising for OpenSSF. He gave me a call at 4 p.m. Pacific time saying, hey, do you think Goldman would like to be involved? I reached out to Marco, CEO of Goldman Sachs, literally sub-30 minutes' response. Again, showing how, not only this is a critical problem, but how this industry has not pulled back on OpenSSF after Log4Shell is actually doubling down on investing, not just in foundations, but really in assumption. Ron, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us and for all your contributions and for being a value-playing member of INS. Thank you so much. Thank you.