 In today's webinar, we are going to be talking about module 5, Marketing Campaigns. And joining us to do that is John Chapman. Welcome John, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you very much for having me. Now, Javier S. Lynx is the leading global healthcare communications group who are dedicated to changing the way the world does healthcare communications for the better. And John, you are their chief creative officer. You have a presentation prepared, so I know we're in very good hands. I'm going to come off screen and leave the floor to you. Thank you very much. Okay, so afternoon everyone. Slightly strange, I can't see any of you, but that's fine. I'll look at myself and get through this. I appreciate being asked along to chat this afternoon. Hopefully some of you will find value and some of you will find this interesting at least. So let me share my slides, and you should be able to see a screen now with a hello on it. So firstly, you're probably wondering who I am and what on earth have us, Lynx is. So my name is John Chapman, as Charlotte mentioned, and I'm what's called a chief creative officer at an advertising agency. Now the ad agency specializes in healthcare and pharmaceutical work. So what used to be something that was kind of the back of people's minds is now the forefront of everybody's consciousness thanks to this pandemic we've all been living through and the effect of COVID to healthcare is firmly on most people's agenda as these days. But we are an agency based in Manchester and we are about 550 strong and I'll explain a little bit shortly about it and we specialize in healthcare. And what that means is we create advertising and marketing campaigns that raise awareness around certain conditions or diseases or ailments to help you understand them, to help general public go to the doctors, go to the GPs, go to specialists and talk about it should they think they are affected by them. And we also mark a product-led campaigns and that is for treatments. So you will hardly ever see these in the UK or Europe probably across most of your lives because you can't market or advertise directly to the general public because of regulations and laws and things like that. If you go to the United States or North America you will see hundreds of these adverts on TV because you can market directly and advertise directly to the general public. We do that as well and it's again lots and lots of different products for lots of different what are called therapy areas or conditions and they range from the smaller ailments like eczema, like eating joints, like gout or whatever, nail problems and things like that to very, very, very serious conditions such as cancers and skin diseases like psoriasis or HIV and the whole spectrum of health and COVID for that matter. We've been doing a lot of work on the COVID-19 vaccine with AstraZeneca in this country and the Pfizer vaccine in the US. So in a nutshell we do a lot of medical-based advertising. I'm not personally from a medical background, I'm from a what's called a consumer advertising background and again I want to talk about that May kind of path towards this type of thing but we're called Have Us Links group our website is haveuslinks.com we are based in Manchester and we have a big office in London as well and we are part of a global network. Now that global network is headquartered in Manhattan in New York and there is offices all around the world, Have Us Links been in one of them in the UK. So this is kind of sums up what we do as an agency and its impact that matters so this is what you would call a vision statement or what your proposition as a company and what we purport to do and that's why our clients come to us for creative work. Now creative work in advertising is something that communicates a message obviously but most importantly it uses creativity to solve a business problem and that's what you know to consume a creativity that solves a business problem that's what advertising generally does and these these sentences here are the summation of really really big campaigns that we've done globally and across Europe in these different areas so helping kids with arthritis talk without words was a piece of work where we had a wristband designed and it was for children under the age of eight who suffered from a particular type of arthritis and we found out that the insight is kids don't like to draw attention to themselves and put their hands up in class if your elbows are the wrist or the fingers are hurting due to the arthritis so we designed this band where it was white on one side red on the other they turned it over when it was red the teacher was aware of this and they took them out of the classroom and they got the nurse to kind of help them didn't have to draw attention it was all kind of worked through that way so power of creativity to solve real problems in real real real people's lives in the real world which is what we tried to do later on in the in the presentation I have two or three pieces of work and film that we can I can share with you and just so you get a sense of the title work that we do so I had put this slide in thinking I'd be able to see you and we could interact but we'll run it anyway normally we would say hands up who is creative and who considers themselves creative and you'd be astonished at the amount of people that don't put their hands up now if you would like to pursue in a career or a job in advertising or marketing and you're going to have to start believing in yourself that you are creative and in all honesty the majority of people are it's just comes out in lots of different ways being creative doesn't mean that you're going to paint a brilliant picture you're going to write an amazing song or you're going to come up with wacky stories anything that you can do all of those things being creative in an advertising agency or a marketing agency means that you have to apply your creativity and to be able to solve a problem normally talk about solving problems it's what's called a brief from a client and the brief will articulate what the client's communication objectives are so in the world of marketing you have to understand a business need versus a customer need or you have to identify the need in the marketplace and advertising is one component of marketing I actually had to look at it this morning because I couldn't really differentiate that when I thought about it myself because there's lots and lots of overlap these days and when you work in a big busy agency there's lots of functions that that cover all of these different aspects and creativity is incredibly important for marketing and advertising because it's what sets you apart it's what makes you stand out it's what gets somebody's attention it's what makes somebody interested in what you're saying if you don't do that nobody will read your message or watch your film or view your social media campaign or watch your TikTok videos it has to grab your attention so it has to be created from the off and it has to stand out if that's the first rule of any kind of advertising work but there's other reasons why it's really important and this isn't me being glib or silly or trying to play it in the crowd there's three main reasons why I believe it's super important it's fun when you join the world of work when you leave school when you leave college when you leave university whatever your path is you've got a long time that you have to spend that work now you will hear this from a lot of people including your family your parents or friends or in people that work for a living so you have to enjoy it because believe me you're going to spend a lot of time that work and it can get boring and it can be a slog and it can take it out of you so if you make it interesting and fun it will make your life a lot better the second brilliant thing about creativity is it changes people's minds now if you think about that for a second your influence your idea and the way you present it or the way you write it or the way you draw or visualise it or the way you write film it will change somebody's mind about something so in healthcare that's really really important because if you're poorly and you don't know what to do and you watch a piece of film that explains something to you if it feels right for you hopefully it'll make you think differently about it and you could end up going to a doctor you could go to a specialist you could go to a hospital and you would get the treatment that you need so it's really really interesting and it's really really important thirdly it's contrary so to stand out to be fun to make a difference to change somebody's mind you have to go against the norm you have to go against the status quo because it'll just get enveloped in a sea of all the other hundreds of thousands of pieces of information that you view every single day if you think about when you log on social media when you look on instagram or facebook twitter or tiptoe or snapchat you are bombarded by messages how many of those do you remember at the end of the day probably less than one percent when you walk down the street same thing happens when you drive a car same thing happens when you go online it's you are bombarded now our job is to come up with an idea that cuts through all of the noise and stands out somebody's mind that's the powerful side of it in being contrary means you go against the grain to be able to stand out and be able to be impressed and be able to hold somebody's attention now this all sounds kind of big and difficult and abstract but it isn't it really isn't and you can be creative to solve problems in everyday settings so i'm going to share two pieces of news clipings that i came across that show the power of creativity now this is a market not advertising but it's how you apply it so it's a very familiar problem that's up and down the country and schools get full of parked cars i would say even twice a day every morning every evening when parents go to pick their kids up the pollution that those cars produce causes a lot of problems not only for the climate in general but for the immediate area and the immediate environment of kids coming out of schools and the research program found that a lot of young children must have developed an asthma and lung problems because of this so a head teacher in Greater Manchester came up with a brilliant idea of going if we make the children traffic wardens and give out you know false tickets to the parents on a park and the cars it'll change our mind and it did it worked it stopped the parents parking because if you just tell somebody what to do on what not to do generally they don't listen that's human nature nobody wants to be told what to do but if you're doing an interesting way and you highlight the problem and you use the people to communicate that message then it becomes interesting and in this case it becomes newsworthy because that's a brilliant brilliant piece of everyday creativity that uses smart bit of thinking to solve a really big problem and it was for free it wasn't a marketing campaign it wasn't advertising it was done for one school in Manchester that changed the way like people drop their kids off and pick them up so again brilliant example the next one is another genius idea and it just made us laugh because it's a bit rude and cheeky and all the rest of it so if you if you cycle if you ride a bike there's lots and lots of potholes on streets up and down the country and wherever you are in england roads are pretty terrible um potholes for cyclists can cause real injuries and danger so if you hit potholes quite hard if you fly out the bike break your arm smash your head in bruise your legs whatever it hurts so a cyclist took in his own hands of trying to get these potholes filled up by the the council most councils don't have a lot of money bottom of the list didn't want to top market and make the road safe so you threw big willies around them in spray paint that caught the attention of the local news council doesn't like being on the news and they fixed them all literally within two days now again differently it solved a problem but creatively brilliant because it's using something that again doesn't cost a lot of money and it goes against what the council stands for which is decency and cleanliness and they were cleaned up straight away that's the contrarian bit about what we talked about we use your ideas to go against the claim but be smart about it because it solves a problem and potentially has saved somebody's life from hitting that problem and falling off that bike so what does this all mean well very simply it means creativity is commonly used to solve problems problems exist all over the world every day in everyone's life and especially for businesses because they have to generate money to sell a product to provide service to employ people that work there so there's a continuous stream of problems business problems that agencies like myself now people like myself in agencies like have us links and get briefed on on a daily basis and we have to work in teams to be able to come up with ideas to solve those problems and we present them back to clients and they buy them and then we go and produce them so how do you plan the marketing campaign well generally there's a million things that go into this stuff and I would probably bore you want the death if we went through them all but very simply that the easiest way that you can kind of answer this question with another question is it boils down to these three things when you plan a marketing campaign and it's what do you want who's it for and why are we doing it so if the client or a business can answer that those three things then you're off to a really strong start because you have a clear idea of what they intend to do what you know if it's a product that they're selling maybe it's running trainers and they want to sell more trainers because they might have created a new soul for the late night did for for athletes who's it for well it could be for athletes or it could be for people that just like running and why are we doing it well first and foremost if your business is probably to make profit make make make money and two it's probably because it furthers the cause of spirit of running and thirdly it's a competitive advantage so it makes that business stand out so once you start understanding and there'll be multiple answers to these three questions once you understand that that gives you a starting point to be able to plan your campaign now a marketing campaign generally these days is pretty big pretty complicated with lots of different channels but at the core of it is an advertising campaign is a thought and it's what you call like a big idea and it's one single minded idea that then spreads out across all of these different channels and these chat when we talk about channels it's things like websites youtube tv still people watch tv so it could be adverts on the ad break it could be social media so all the different platforms that people use it could be print in the magazine it could be a leaflet like push through someone's door it could be a digital um interactive screen in a big congress exhibition it could be a game it could be part of a part of fortnight for example where where there's it opens itself up to create ideas so we can get a message out there so there's hundreds of different ways you can express an idea to be able to plan a campaign but when you do that there's generally two questions that you need to know about from a creator point of view whether you're providing service for you for your client or your other business or your selling the product and most people in the real world of everyday life need to know two things what's it called what does it do now you if you don't answer those two things when you're advertising the product you failed because people will be none the wiser they might like what you've done you might create a beautiful idea and shoot a lovely piece of film but if you don't communicate what the product name is and what it is i how it helps somebody uh or what service it provides or how in you know better somebody's life no one will listen no one will remember more importantly so then you wasted all that time all that effort and all that money from a client budget to no ends to no avail so these are just things to get you in the right frame of mind and things to consider when you commonly do this type of thing again it won't just be on you as an individual when you work in an agency um especially an advertising agency you cover a lot of things as mentioned um you know film tv press brandon congress social etc etc there's generally two sides of an agency and one is creative ideas how we write it how we visualize it how we come up with that idea and then the graphic design so how that's designed how that's created how that's produced and and there's lots of people that are involved in this um i'm part of a creative department and that's one department in the agency the other departments in the agency are um you know strategy and planners and these other people that do research in the insights and look at the market and look at um what the need is and then look for something that other people don't see and that that's what an insight is so they observe and they research and they talk to people and they look at behaviors and then the insight is what the conclusion from those that research that because how the slings group is a is a health care agency we have medical people in it so there's a there's the agency can be split into two really when i describe it so you've got creative folks on one side which that list is there and that's all the different people that are part of the creative department and the folks on the right generally the folks on the right the strategist planners medical writers client services they're the really like academically smart people so you know have phd's uh have masters and things especially the medical guys they are super smart that's brilliant for people like me who are generally smart in a different way uh maybe a bit more emotionally intelligent maybe intelligent in a way that how we communicate something or think of ideas uh but not academically brilliant i'm just speaking for myself there's lots of creative people that are academically brilliant and it's a real mix the point being there's there's space for everybody here you don't necessarily have to have a degree to join an advertising agency if you do have a degree great that's fantastic that may get you into a certain uh position you know medical guys absolutely have to because it's it's a it's a legal requirement if you're writing kind of something that deals with somebody's health and but there's plenty of people at the agency that come with just a book full of good ideas and we sit down we review and go do you know what you would fit in here and you would do a great job that's again there's lots of different ways in so the next few slides um well i'll show you some work actually um just so i'm not battling on for for half an hour or 40 minutes and there's three pieces of work i'd like to show you they cover different diseases one is HIV i'll show you a piece of film for it and then one is what's what's called hemophilia which is a blood disorder and it's a piece of film for that and then finally we just created a book that tackles dyslexia and how we diagnose it so i'll show a piece of film for that so before we change my screen the client came to us and said we need to communicate to the general public that a disease called HIV is on the rise again now depending on your age you may or may not have heard of HIV or you may have a perception of it it comes with a lot of baggage it started in the 80s there's a lot of stigma sort of misconception around it it's just a virus and it affects everybody and and it's contracted through having sex or like bodily fluids and things like that are you know blood exchanges so tattoos and coats and bruises and stuff um however it it's can be managed there's optical treatments for it and they basically said that we wanted to because it's on the rise you want people to go to that doctor as if they're not feeling great and recognize the symptoms so that was the brief that's the problem that we had to solve so i will very quickly just swap screens and i will play a piece of film to show you how we tackle that problem bear with me one second and i'm really hoping you can see and the others hello i'm val of course hello val take a seat and tell me what i can help you with well doctor i came here last week to see you with a sore throat and then the week before with an ache in my back and neck i see i have these disgusting coals that just won't go away i have a rash all over my chest i keep sweating during the night and i've lost weight i've had diarrhea for at least 10 days in a row and i am absolutely shattered what do you think it could be recognizing the changing face of hiv can help you diagnose its similar with one simple blood test you can make all the difference don't think twice think test so that was a piece of film that we've done um for somebody called biv health care and uh that was as it as it says to direct people to doctors if they have common symptoms there wasn't a fright in anybody it was just a minute and go and get checked out so the screen you can see now um you it wasn't just a piece of film it there was lots of post as there was there was a website there was a social media campaign so it kind of touched on lots of different aspects of the market mix and but it's for a very serious subject but it doesn't mean that you can you can be creative with it and again it was it was to convey something that was very important in a way that people understood and could um maybe relate to because you have lots and lots of different people that we cast as um the characters in that film so my stereotypes some on and all that meant was uh people that might associate hiv with and the people that we don't but again the messages that affects everybody so that was one piece of film i'll move through these quite quickly because i think there'll be some questions afterwards hopefully and we can um we can keep chatting the next idea is very different and it was to communicate something called hemophilia and how it affects teenagers and young adults and their sex lives because a lot of people with hemophilia hemophilia has a condition where your blood doesn't clot so it can be very dangerous so if you cut yourself and you bleed um gently normally your blood clots and it scarves over and and you're fine and this can be super dangerous if you have hemophilia because it doesn't clot if you have internal clots or bruises and things like that it can it can lead to serious complications and so we created this campaign to speak to that audience probably around your age and a little bit older um to to see how we could how we could communicate this message so again i'm just going to switch screens and i'll show you a piece of film uh which is two minutes long and then we'll move on social media has given global issues like body confidence and platform to finally get the attention they deserve but a section of society has been left behind young men with hemophilia social listening from our wider campaign community highlighted critical unmet need their body confidence issues meant that they were missing out on vital aspects of life love and physical relationships hemophilia is a rare disease affecting blood's ability to clot leading to problems like internal bleeding and excruciating joint pain we know joint pain limits exercise but it also affects sex which is why they won't understand their condition that it looks physically unattractive it might affect their sexual performance like many young men they're also embarrassed to talk openly about sex relationships and their feelings so we started the conversation full well yes we were having the sex we're like talking about sex in the same way they're using the social language of emotions bringing them to life and putting them back into social media we produced a series of social films with a range of couples at different stages of their relationships talking about real issues well we started to get a bit more serious out of it and i just came out with it he just taxed me like i'll be a bit late gotta take my medication i've got hemophilia so we started talking about having children so we started talking about hemophilia again the first time we made love oh you just call it sex we spoke to patients and their partners to get honest insights into how they manage hemophilia in their relationship giving us incredible social content i used to get nice waves all the time and adjourn them and come up my events all year i had that nosebleed didn't i remember these couples made hemophiliacs feel comfortable with their conditioning and showed them there's nothing to be afraid of except for when we met them after a valentine's day release the time when patients would be feeling increased pressure on their love life in four weeks we had 1.5 million impressions really and 42 000 visits to our patient support site really i'm so glad here they could access curated content and sex and relationships i like that we broke down barriers and turned what's notorious and difficult to talk about into a gauging and relevant social content to spoke to young men with hemophilia in a new way showing them that having a love life and hemophilia doesn't have to be complicated great so hopefully you would have just seen that piece of film so it's really interesting because the reason the reason i'm showing me this stuff is there's lots of different aspects to this so those models have to be made so if you're good at making things with your hands there's a role for you every word you heard on that script on that piece of film has to be written so if you're like writing and you're like communicating that way that has to be written and somebody has to say it as a voiceover and you have to come up with the idea you have to come up with the idea to be able to go right we'll get these two fruits talking to each other special and it's true because and there's reason behind it people communicate that way these days on on text and it's really interesting not only is it a brilliant lovely idea and it communicates something in a way that people remember you get the chance to work with really interesting folks so we use a company called Ordman animations to make that piece of film Ordman are the guys that made Wallace and Gromit so that's why they all look kind of similar and and all those wonderful films so we went to their studio and she and worked with model makers and they photographed it in the animated it and it's all stop frame animations so it's them you know the mouth is moved this bit and then take four on this bit take four so it's amazing because you get you get a glimpse into that world it becomes really really interesting and in the aspect of time I'll just push on a little bit and show you the final piece of work that I wanted to share with you guys today and it's again it's different we created a children's book we wrote and illustrated a book and for kids under six I think it was and and we we the idea was to try and diagnose something called dyslexia so dyslexia is a very very common condition which affects your spelling and it affects your reading and it has a lot of a lot of effects as well your confidence when you talk to people how you describe things how you fill out forms all I tell you but it's hugely common it affects lots and lots of people a lot of people in or advertising agency took up on dyslexia as well so this is one of the reasons we've done it we created a book but it doesn't and it's a test but the kids that are reading it don't realize it's a test only the parents do it again so it's just a lovely story but that's illustrated in a way that holds their attention so again I'll just flip my screen to show you piece of film and this will be the final one for today and then I'll be able to answer some of your questions so hopefully this will play in your list also despite dyslexia affecting up to 870,000 children in the UK less than 150,000 are actually diagnosed leaving them without the vital support they need at a key time in their learning development we needed to find a way to help parents spot signs of dyslexia introducing Andy goes the children's book that turns stressful tests into a bedtime routine working in collaboration with specialists dyslexia teachers we took complex dyslexia screen tools and turned them into a bedtime routine testing the child without them knowing they were being tested the story was written to include key factors and early signs of dyslexia the majority of the story used Fry's first 100 words the first words that children by the age of six should be able to read failure to grasp these could be a key indicator the muddled mountain became a key feature within the story helping to highlight any issues with corrective partial decoding this is where a child with dyslexia might find it difficult to fully visualize the words in their head so mountain will become motorbike the way the book was designed also acts as a detector off-white backgrounds are easier for a child with dyslexia to read in darker backgrounds to ensure children don't feel like they're being tested the guide for parents was designed to look like publishes details allowing them to get a genuine assessment of their child's reading habits and he goes was made free to access to anyone who wanted it launched on World Book Day and he goes made its way into thousands of homes schools began adding the book to their educational materials and the book has been adopted across the globe from the partners to Australia giving more children a better chance of diagnosis okay so uh there we are at three different completely different pieces of work the reason I wanted to show you guys this today is to show that there's lots of different ways to produce advertising work in marketing campaigns but films you've got social media stuff you've got a physical book that you know me now whether you like researching these things there's a role that you can play there whether you like coming up with ideas to be able to how to communicate the solution to a problem that comes from a client there's a role for you there whether you are good at drawing and illustrating there's a role for you there whether you're good at acting or behind the camera or you want to do blog solvers or you're interested in how films are made and put together there's a role for you it's it's hugely varied what we do and some of it can be academic and technical and specific and some of it can be very broad and very creative and and can reach lots and lots of people so again it's it's hugely varied the type of work we do about the agency and you know we select lots of different channels and how we measure the success is generally how we help people so the business objectives are saved from clients how much money they make how many units they ship is one thing but the real success is how you help somebody and that's the reason I work in in healthcare advertising because I get to be creative in a way that helps someone in their everyday life what we do is we provide commercial ideas that solve business problems for clients that's one side of it things like the book of dyslexia are helping children be able to be diagnosed and then get help so they can read write and understand things but later on in life the HIV idea gets people in front of the doctor saying we get tested for a condition and the hemophilia idea the the the peachy and ogre taunt which of that tackle is a sensitive subject people of a certain age are maybe embarrassed about in a way that opens up a conversation that's the real impact and they're the reasons that it matters for what we do and very quickly I know I'm kind of running out of time I started working in advertising about 16 17 years ago in Newcastle in the northeast of England where I grew up and there's not a huge amount of advertising work here I work in lots of different agencies and companies and then I decided to move to London because that's basically all the big big agencies are on my way into London I've got side tracking with Manchester and to attend a party I stayed there for a weekend and I ended up picking up some freelance work to do creative ideas I then ended up working in an agency and I've lived there for the past 17 years and I've stayed there I've never actually made it in London so Manchester is a great place there's lots of creative stuff going on and I started as a junior what's called a junior art director and you go in and you think of ideas and then I've done a bit of graphic design work and then I went back all direction and then I work around lots of different agencies I know I have us links and I work my way up and through all the different levels and I'm another chief creative officer so I sit on the board and I know I see all of the creative work for the for the agency there's a very quick small part of history of how I've got it but all it takes is good ideas in my in my instance for for my role in the agency that's how you you get the way you need to be if you're really good at writing do that if you're really good at coming up ideas do that if you're really good at research do that find what you're good at keep doing it and you will get to where you want to be that would be the advice so after seeing those ideas I would now ask you know hands up who he has created and hopefully you're all sitting at home or wherever you are putting your hands up go do you know what I would probably do a role there and I would love to be able to do something like that well I hope so and there is room and there is space and there is lots and lots of different roles within a creative agency where you could most definitely take part in and I will leave you with this when you get involved in a role or a job where you are surrounded by creative people where you've come up with ideas for a living and you make money from it and that's what you do it's it's contagious it makes you want to do more it makes the people around you want to do more and so I will leave you with that creativity is contagious please pass it on and that will be my final say on the matter which I believe and I now have to answer some questions for you lovely people and so I will just go through hi Charlotte hello thank you so much that presentation that was fantastic and I think those videos I mean I personally never seen them I thought they were fantastic really really good so thank you that was a really really good insight into not only the company but into marketing in general we've got about five minutes to answer some questions and there have been quite a few so let's start off with what is the most important thing for a marketing campaign to succeed? The most important thing is that it gets somebody's attention so if it doesn't get anybody's attention in the very first few seconds of somebody seeing it everything else is wasted so it could be the best thing in the world it could be the most researched thing it could be the most well funded you could have famous people in it you could have brilliant minds on it or if somebody doesn't pay attention to it very quickly you've you've lost them and as I mentioned before you see a lot of things on daily basis day in day out and if your idea doesn't stand out your marketing campaign doesn't stand out in a way that's relevant to what you're trying to say and attract somebody's attention then you'll never ever get them to pay attention to watch it to read it to understand change what you want them to change so it has to be invested. Great thank you what was your favourite marketing campaign? Of all time? I mean I'm probably a lot older than the folks on this call but they're my favourite ad well there's two the very recent one that's been on tv is is called womb stories and it's from body form and it's you know about sanitary products but it tackles it in a very different way and it shows lots and lots of different stories from different women of different ages in a way that's never been done before and it's very sensitive it's very smart it's super intelligent and it's a beautiful piece of work and I defy anybody male or female to watch that and not feel something because it is astonishingly good yeah it's very good and a very old campaign which is a favourite of mine is for a drink called southern cum fat which is a bourbon and it's an overweight guy walking down a beach in a pair of speedos and it's probably one of the best pieces of 30 seconds of film you'll ever watch and as long as you want it at all it just makes you feel really good it's excellent it is excellent I think everyone knows exactly which one you're talking about even when you just say the guy in speedos and look what can this is for obviously a student what can I do now to help get experience for a marketing job in the future really good question so any problem that you come across if you're creatively minded try and think of a way around it how would you solve that problem now that sounds really vast and really big and vague but those examples I use are everyday things you know pollution outside of school bottles on the road it might be you might see somebody that with a walking stick that's struggling across the road how do you help that person how do you come up with an idea to make their life a little bit easier it might needn't be that it might be like you know you want a new pair of trainers how do you how do you come up with a creative way to try and convince somebody to buy those trainers or whatever the front is the more you can demonstrate that you can think around problems and you can get around things and you can produce something that's different and communicates something to somebody that's the best that's honestly the best experience you can do and if you put present that to somebody like myself or somebody at an agency and they end you've proactively done it off your own back like that's like maximum browning points that gets you right in front of everybody else that's in the interview process because it shows you can't get enthusiastic about it yeah and for sure really really proactive it's definitely going to be a plus when you're interviewing against lots of other people how do you make yourself stand out fantastic thank you um we've got time for one last question which is what is your favorite part of the job the favorite part of my job is there's two things that come up with ideas and being and being creative because it's literally thinking of something from nothing and it's but it's applying it it's it's it's it's it's coming up with a different way to do something or a different way to say something and the other part of that is working with people that do that as well so I get a lot of very brilliantly talented creative people and it's a joy because you get to sit around chatting and produce something whether it's an illustration or it's a film or it's a song or it's a post that whatever that is and when we research these things we get to watch films we get to listen to music we get to go talk all different we had wonderful people so it's super interesting and it's very very and everyday is different so that is most definitely a favorite part of my job yeah I'm not surprised I'd love to be on fly on the wall when you're having sort of a meeting with all your creatives bouncing ideas off each other it must be one of those moments where you just think gosh there's so many fantastic creative people in this room it must feel really good it is it is yeah and believe it or not they're not always good ideas there's lots of very terrible ideas and that's why that's part of it but we talk about it and we make them good so yeah amazing well that brings us to a wrap on this session John thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to be here today your presentation was fantastic and thanks for bringing so much enthusiasm and excitement to it and it's been a real pleasure thank you thank you very much