 Welcome to what the app is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean Code pinks weekly YouTube program of hot news out of the region in partnership. We have a lot of partners now I'm so happy to say in partnership with common frontiers, Council on hemispheric affairs, friends of Latin America, Massachusetts peace action and task force on the Americas. We broadcast weekly at 430pm Pacific, 730pm Eastern on code into YouTube channel. You can also find us on Apple podcast spotify telegram and now on rat indy media.com. Today's episode is Ecuador, the lasso government post national strike. So this today's episode is a follow up to our June 22 episode entitled Ecuador erupts against neoliberalism, in which we were joined by Pamela escalante of passachum years. So today, our guests and I'm so happy to welcome him back and I'm sure many of you will recognize him. Today, our guest is author and journalist Joe Emersberger. You can find his work published at fair fairness and accuracy in reporting, and be sure to read his book extraordinary threat, the US Empire, the media and 20 years of coup attempts in Venezuela. So welcome Joe. Welcome back. Thank you for having me. I just want to quick note the book. The book I wrote is with my, my friend Justin Boter, we wrote it together. Just want to clarify. Oh, yes. Okay, a shout out to Justin. Sorry. No problem. I remember I remember when it came out and I apologize. Oh, that's okay. So that's for our audience. What, what we want to talk about in this episode is what's happened since June 22. I think most of the audience is probably aware that a week ago Tuesday, there was an attempt to impeach President lasso of Ecuador. This process failed by only 12 votes. And this week following that impeachment attempt for ministers have resigned in the lasso cabinet or lasso government. And so, let's talk about what those two specific events I mean they're right on the heels of this 18 day national portal. And so what what has happened I think before we went live you started to tell me that that this is, you know, a pretty significant achievement of the indigenous community. I don't want to start there, but it isn't only the indigenous community. No, it's not. First, yeah, it's, but it was definitely there's no disputing that this was spearheaded by tonight these the 18 days of protest was spearheaded by tonight by by the by the leadership by the lower level leadership organizers activists of the government. They spearhead really an unprecedented national strike protests, you know, and, and Moreno's are sorry, Lasso's President Lasso's Freudian slip there, President Lasso's approval in the polls all the polls have around 20% he has fallen precipitously in only a year since he's taken office he's been he's the continuation of Moreno he always was. But the, the, it's important to note that they were already in 2019 it's important to stress because October 19 they're already huge protests against neoliberal policies, and that was before the pandemic strike, because since 2017 there's been at least 35% increase in poverty and more than doubling of homicide rate violent crime in Ecuador since since 2017 or it's continuously both continuously gotten worse since since the right wing And that's a huge story there. But when I say it's a huge achievement of these protests with what what's impressive is that the the concessions they have officially run from the Lasso government are concessions that that resonate with the entire Ecuadorian popular or the vast majority of Ecuadorians because they include like declaring a national emergency in the health sector right that affects everybody that's just not that's not the indigenous just the indigenous communities. It's calling for it and one of their demands they didn't make it into the into the concessions from Lasso but they also stressed that the violent crime that was one of their 10 points that there's has to be something like the just skyrocketing homicide and violence in the streets. Common crime is just exploded and the drug trafficking has it has. Yeah, it's all it's all it's linked together it's all but it's all it's it's a dramatic increase in violent crime that's just exploded since 2017. It's not to unemployment and the poverty that that creates yes or. Yeah, it's linked together but it's all it's like, it's not that simple because what happens there was a total restructure of the of the judicial system on the Okay, and this was done with the, with the collaboration of can I initially for the first few years, and because there there's, there's divisions between that the sub let's say the left wing, left leaning movements voters in Ecuador. And the split has exacerbated under a number of random for a lot of reasons but I want to stress first of all that the concessions that have run that can I run from the government are, like I say they resonate with the general population because they weren't, they weren't just about the indigenous sector of the rural sector they focused on things that in fact the entire entire Ecuadorian population and in last was just extremely unpopular because the general situation in Ecuador has just gotten worse the pandemic made it even more so for having something like six months into the pandemic, Ecuador had like the one of the worst death rates in the world. I mean entire world. When you looked at access deaths compared to pre pandemic periods I was just a, just another disaster all the way around on top of the disaster that was already taking place and that already caused such such commotion so there was. Yeah, so that the the it's considered a huge achievement that they managed to ring these concessions and ring them in such a way that you say they resonate with everybody. However, last just recently he's already saying that the protests were financed by correct correct correct movement and by drug traffickers. He's saying that about program. Now he's just run. He's just made concessions was in the dialogue, and yet he's going out publicly and saying oh they were all financed by drug traffickers and and and of course attacking Korea because that's the big demon in Ecuadorian politics. The so called Korea's movement as the largest block in the National Assembly. You mentioned I want to stress right off the bat you stress you mentioned wrap up there was an attempt to impeach lasso. It's it's not an impeachment if you remember what happened with Dilma Rousseff. The legislators threw her out basically and then seized power from themselves right. Well, that's not what was being attempted in in the vote that just took place. What took place in Ecuador is something that was instituted in the 2008 Constitution when it was you know was ratified by voters, and it's called they refer to it informally as more the I guess that means like mutually assured destruction, because what happens is that if the National Assembly, what they can do is they think, yeah they can terminate his term, but they have to go to elections for the entire National Assembly, and the president. Okay, so it's a fresh elections for everybody, not just for the. Okay, so it's not like the Dilma Rousseff executive and the legislative. Yes, yes, it's not like it's not like, it's not like what happened with Dilma Rousseff were basically the right wing legislators can just throw her out and seize power for themselves and they stayed in power for two years right. That's not what this was about. This was about forcing elections within six months for everybody. Okay, so what happens is, so lasso can run again, and if lasso were to win, he would be able to finish out his term, and they could not invoke this met this mark that could sell that again, because it only applies for that term. So and the reason and similarly the president also like a popular president is confronted with protests led by an unpopular minority whatever he could call call out say you know what okay fresh elections that I'm going to I'm going to go to the voters and you guys all go to the voters to. So there's article 148 allows the president, the force is more the salad the force elections for everybody. Okay, and article 130 allows the National Assembly with a two thirds vote which they didn't quite get. We're saying yeah, yeah, they fell short of that. They fell short. But if they had got the two thirds of vote, the legislative vote, they would have forced new elections for everybody. Okay, so, and this was implemented because between the period 1996 to 2006, Ecuador had depending how you count them nine to 11 different presidents, because of all sorts of back this content it was just a disaster. Throughout this period you had rising poverty and again rising rising violent crime, all the way from the 1980s, all the way to basic all the way right up until if you look at the homicide rate for Ecuador. From 1980, all the way through till 2011 until the very early years of Perez government when he when he instituted reforms to judiciary into the legal system. The violent crime rate is constantly increasing. I mean I can just tell you myself. As a young kid, I could walk the streets in the 70s, early 80s with my uncles and down some way I killed no, no fear of being assaulted or anything right by the by 1990. My family my relatives and why I killed they didn't want to go their own neighborhood after dark, which it just just continually got worse and worse and worse. And under Korea's government in only 10 years from 2000 by the time he left office, the homicide rate we have fallen by two thirds. Just a dramatic decrease in crime all over the country and dramatic improvement in the general feeling of security and in along with that. A reduction in poverty and if you remember I mean, this is more is not just there's not just a simple correlation between poverty alleviation and violent crime reduction because if you remember it under Chavez even during his best years, the oil and government still struggled with the rising crime rate, because what would create what creates government did is the unclog the legal system so many cases that were just sitting in limbo so many people, not being processed just there's no resources just no resources dedicated to just making the system function effectively and the implemented another different kind of way of selecting judges and prosecutors through a process that kind of bypass political parties. It was created to be criticized it for a lot of reasons but the results are undisputable they produced a much more efficient much more effective legal system that that produce these tremendous results. But since 2017 when right wing government neoliberal governments took over part of what they've done is just just merged eliminated public sector services and employees that are just isn't either just not the resources to to deal with the and they what reasons they have dedicated basically to trying to the throw Korean supporters in jail. I mean Jorge glass in jail Korea, if you went to Ecuador would be in jail sentence to get asylum now. Some of my neighbors here in Mexico City would be as well if they returned home. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just a it's been a it's been a it's been a disaster and so they were there were these tremendous achievements under Chris time and obviously been completely undone and we're going back almost to the what we were to what Ecuador was in the 90s. So, with this tremendous, like I said in the 96 to 2006 tremendous violent crime instability there were so much also political instability governments, changing constantly. And so that's why this mark the side that I talked about was was implemented because it was a okay there's got to be a better way if the government really falls in popular it's got to be a better way that just taking to the streets to get rid of them there's got to be a constitutional way that forces all the whole political class to be accountable because they the legislature and the president, both have to go to elections. Okay, so I just think that's an important point to stress. It is. Thank you. Yeah, it's much more complex and kids. Yeah, and also now really fantastic it could be quite disastrous to on who calls for it. Yeah, but it but the whole political class has to go right so it has to go to elections, they have to go to the voters. So that that that is a well thought out mechanism. And there's also, right now, unfortunately, there's a, there's also a, there was a temp made after that vote failed there was an attempt made to prevent to the CNE recall referendum. Okay, they want to give us petitions we want to start collecting signatures to recall the force a recall referendum on Guillermo Lasso, but that was shot down. The CNE said there was no. There was no, they didn't provide enough proof that they have to justify their attempt for recall saying that the last of them fulfill his promises they say they didn't give enough proof. It's kind of comical for the CNE to even bring that up because Lasso's candidacy in 2021 was actually legal. I mean it's very clear that the Pandora papers revelation show that he had through his family assets and tax havens which under under Victorian law, you're not supposed to have if you're a candidate you're supposed to get rid of any property tax havens before you can be a candidate you didn't do that. But with the restructuring of all the the authorities that's been happening since 2017 it's, it just didn't didn't didn't bite him legally. And now we see how the CNE is even even after these unprecedented protests and extremely unpopular president, he's still being protected from the CNE from now for a recall referendum so for our audience the CNE is the Consejo Nacional Electoral of the National Electoral Council, which is a branch of the government. And oversees the electoral process in Ecuador, not unlike other countries, the INE here in Mexico which is screwed in the CNE in Venezuela same name. Yeah. So, so that's that's what's going on right now is that is that. And also there's also against Leonidas Issa, he's the leader of the CNI. It's, it's, it's, it's being important to stress that when he, when these, when these protests initiated, first thing the government did was a try to arrest, well they didn't try or they did arrest. And then, but they were backtracked on the right away, because, like I said, CNI is not there one strength and I has it's not, it's not, it's not as much of a top down organization to say that as chorus movement is like I support careers movement but when you have a more horizontal structure that that has advantages sometimes because you can't just decapitate the leaders and know everything goes away. Like when electoral movement is dependent on so much on a leader, well you cancel the leader one way or another and everything kind of falls apart, but they couldn't do that with these, this protest because it was had such genuine grassroots support and just just grabbing the leader was just going to, I think they realized just going to throw fuel on the fire so they backtrack, but they're still trying to go, they still have court case against them, and last was already linking the protest to Marco traffic and to Coraizmo which in his, which to his, to his supporters, and which are very powerful, that's just the same thing right Coraizmo Marco that's the same thing you know and you saw the same discourse against Eval Morales and the people who hate it to hate people who hate Eval Morales or any left wing government or their narcos their criminals. So, so the fact that he's engaging that discourse that certainly puts a cloud on whether these these agreement that he reached with with can I will actually get implemented so it's it's kind of, it's a, it's a scary situation away because he's not going to implement and the CNE and other authorities are going to block him from for basically recall, and the, and the legislature is going to block him from having the more the option that he's, it's like they're closing all the legal options right. And so that's, that's, that's a recipe for perhaps even more national strikes or protest down the road, but it's not, that's something that it's it's very it's very uncertain. Let's talk about, well now there's two things just listening to you outline over this. Let's talk about the things that the government has. I have a short list here maybe we should just run through them. There were the 10 items that Conai and the protesters at large were demanding be addressed and what the and what the result is as of today as far as we know. And then also I think it's really important that we talk a bit about social movements and organization from the ground up and how important that is in affecting a government's response to the needs and desires of the people. I think that is one of the biggest successes is just not just where the government has agreed, you know, to acquiesce or implement solutions, but this tremendous success of, of community social and labor organizing. And that is something that keeps coming up, you know, throughout so many of our episodes, that this pushed against neoliberalism this neoliberal model that lasso is a poster child for this, this ground up organizing how important it is and Conai has, has, has affected the removal of two presidents already in the like in the 90s and the early 2000s. Yes, that they've had that much. Yeah, it's true. But it's also like there was at that time, you know, in the 90s there was also divisions within the right wing that facilitated presidents being removed. Now, Korea has really put the fear of God in them. They're their fear of the Korea is coming back in some way, or somebody very loyal to correct coming back has put such fear in them that now they really close ranks. So it's not going to it's not like the 1990s in that sense because 1990s they never really had something like a career to look back to say whoa, if we we don't close ranks, we're going to end up with him or with that right. Now they do they have this fear of Korea coming back at the crest movie coming back in power. And so that's that's a huge fear. And so that's why, like, technically, supposedly, Guillermo last was wing of the right of the right wing political class and you know, that's another leader based in why kill those guys are supposedly at odds, right. They're bickering. But when it came down to the vote and national assembly didn't matter. You know, they were going to they were not going to allow him to get thrown out. So that that's a major difference with with the 1990s period. In fact, then the political class would turn on each other much more, you know, for any reason. Yeah, so it's good. It's, you know, moreno unpopular as well using single digits by the time we left but he finished his term. You know, and so I don't, I don't, you know, I don't I'm not I'm not guaranteeing muscles going to finish this term. I'm just saying it's they have this fear of a left wing of a left wing movement electoral movement. It's a festival that has a track record that has achievements and they and they haven't been able to destroy it, but it's still well it's the largest block in the National Assembly is not a majority but it's the largest block. So 35% of the country still supports Korea as well. Well in the pretty solid. Yeah, I think it's I think it's probably higher than that if they actually, but he isn't allowed to run. I mean they rushed. They did really ridiculous things to you just to show you the fear they didn't allow they didn't not only do they not allow it run not only do they still have Jorge glass in jail for going out five years, but they didn't during the campaign they didn't even let him address the roast and his team use Korea's image in the campaign. Yes, they say well if somehow if Korea's sentence therefore his image also is not allowed. So his image uses loses political rights as well not just the man. And what but it was also very cynical because there's a party that used to be Korea's that had almost zero support, and they actually were allowed they actually got away with using Korea's image and that the only impact that could have is maybe to confuse voters to inadvertently vote for them thinking they're voting for somebody Korea supports you know. But they allowed them to you they allowed them to do it in their TV spots and it was, it's like the only reason you allow this to cause confusion and the hope that maybe in a very close vote. That you know that could potentially have an impact you know because you know if a vote is very close any little thing can can potentially. So, so there's there's all sorts of dirty tricks that are going on all the time. But yeah that's that's that's a big difference so that's why I wouldn't bet on lots of being thrown out I mean I'm not saying it's impossible but this is not like the 1996 to Well let's talk about what what these protests have achieved because here I'm just going to quickly go through and please comment. I'm just going to just do an abbreviated run through for the audience to she to show what has been agreed upon so the government says that fuel prices have already been frozen and will not increase in the future. Bank gets the government responds that it has arranged for a bond Ecuador to forgive all credits up to $3,000. At the request of a policy of fair prices for basic agricultural products the government offers to negotiate with the private sector. The government does not respond to the request to increase public investment to generate employment. The government does not respond to the request for a moratorium on extractive mining. And, and, and the oil border I'm not sure that's probably not the correct interpretation from Spanish to English, but it's really important for the for us to understand that extractive mining and particularly the oil extraction does affect indigenous communities, the most. Yes, the largest population affected by the extraction industry. The request that collective rights be respected. The government doubled the budget for intercultural bilingual education. But that would mean also investing in the public education system which they don't seem to have done. There will be no privatization of the strategic sectors, but the promise remains in the air because the government is because the country's facing a government that accelerated the application of neoliberalism. Yeah. So the request to establish a policy to control prices and curbs speculation. The national government push that to the state level or the provincial level I forget what what you refer to them in Ecuador. Push that to the governors and mayors. And a state of emergency has been declared for the public health system and urgent purchases of medicines there is no answer about the policies for admission to the universities offered by lasso when he was a presidential candidate. Yeah, that's that's, but you can see right away is that also there's been an increase in the subsidy for the poor like to basically the others. Bono that is at all human right these basic subsidy given to the most poorest people has been increased a little bit so, but you can see right off the bat that these are these are demands that impact the entire population, even the limiting like the limiting prices or price gouging or whatnot for agricultural products that also obviously that that re that reverberates to the throughout the entire population. Yeah, so yeah, right. So this that was the key thing about these demands that it's the situation Ecuador is deteriorated to the point where where the movement, the indigenous movement can articulate the man's fight for the man's that are supported by everybody right so that that's a key that's a key that that's a similarity with the 1990s that is a that is similar now now that we're back in the liberal regime now for five or five years so that that similarity calls, but I'm, but the the other one the other factors are mentioned are also a factor. What about extractivism like the comment on that because that's, that's where that goes to some of the divisions between the let's say the can I can I movement and in Korea because can I can I had a bad relationship with can I for most of his time in office in a lot some of that was some of that was like, there's a right wing, let's face it there's a right wing element to to can I, like there are the people affiliated with can I and the the certainly their electoral. It's not officially the electoral movement of can I but it's the budget to put the case, the, the electoral wing of the indigenous movement. And if you read even he's a little bit as he says interview. And they ask him what budget could think it's pretty obvious that that's kind of an embarrassment to them because they've been so reactionary. Well we saw that last year's elect presidential election. Sure. And we also like just consider the fact that this more to cross out about that I talked about this was this was in. This was brought in by by chorus movement, the, excuse me the units block. And it was actually, people were actually very pleasantly surprised that most of the Pachacuti went along with it. Some of them, some of them abstain including the President of National Assembly, but it was a pleasant surprise that that they went along with, in fact, did most of most of them did vote for that almost. Well, fast majority voted favor of this more to cross out a fresh election mechanism, but it's still the fact that even comes as a surprise. I mean the fact that even a guy like the head of tonight is basically they've always for years kind of almost a lot of times had a distance themselves from Pachacuti so it's, there's been issues there. But the issue with extractivism is that, as you mentioned, the extract the extractive industries tend to tend to operate in indigenous communities. And traditionally they've tend to get stuck with the pollution with the with the with the garbage, the toxic waste, and, and the wealth flows elsewhere, you know the wealth flows into the pockets of multinationals and into the pockets of of the elite and Ecuador and maybe the urban, you know more urban based middle class or whatever you want to call. So, so that's been that's been a problem, but it's very hard to address that in a country where you also desperately need for exchange just to do basic development. It's just to pay salaries just to build rows just to do sanitation and all the all the basic infrastructure that Ecuador doesn't have is still to start developed under Korea but by no means finished. So that's that's a tension there is very I mean the only way you could actually eliminate that tension is just not to do extractive industries at all. But then you've just you've committed, if you go that far you've done you committed political suicide. And economic suicide I mean you can't just you can't just come off of that economic model overnight. Yeah, but but I want I want to make this point because I put this on Twitter but I want people to consider this like Korea had a when he was in office he had this initiative where he because there was a key point he wanted to there was a proposal to expand drilling in a Yasumi National Park. And he said look okay I don't want I don't want to do this but I'm going to do it unless the international community can pony up like those little under $4 billion right because with that money they could put that right that trust that the attempt to create. Yeah, that's $4 billion now keep that in mind. And that's several years ago. Now in May, without even thinking of US Congress unanimous to push through this or close to unanimous no that wasn't unanimous because actually was embarrassingly was the right wing, who had some had some resistance but the squad and all those people approve $40 billion for the proxy war in Ukraine. Right. So, I mean you can you can you can shower that kind of money on a proxy war with Russia. But what the Korea was asking for not just from the US from the wealthiest countries to say okay $4 billion they got nowhere near that because the it's it's the climate crisis everything is global. If, if you want countries like Ecuador desperately poor to bypass extractive industries well then the, the, the just thing to do with the pressure, the richest country the former colonial countries. To replace the revenue stream that that would allow them to bypass those industries to develop other without doing all right well. You know so that's that's that's a very important point because before I looked at World Bank data the $40 billion that that that's equivalent to Ecuador's oil rents for the entire like 2014 the 2020 period inclusive so that's like a seven year period. So oil rents is the World Bank defines that as the total value of production minus the production costs. So, so that gives you an idea just over a seven year period just that one little gift $40 billion gift to the proxy war with Russia. Yeah, that that covers Ecuador's major. Yeah, for the seven year period. And right now even if you think about right now their oil exports. This year, prices are very high, we're going to be like 10 $12 billion something like that in that neighborhood. So again that's like only a quarter of what that one disbursement of to the to the proxy war with Russia. So it's just something to think about you know because when you, you know, it's, it's, it's to me, a really offensive when, especially environmentalists in the global north want to look down on governments, especially governments that are out there's always have this dilemma of doing some kind of extractivism because, like I said the only way you could alleviate this tension entirely is to not do it, but they just cannot. That's just not pay to keep it in the ground. Yeah, have that offset. You know, you, you talk about the, you know, the US funding of the proxy war in Ukraine here in Mexico, the President of Mexico is something very, very similar, you know that a pinch of that money could have been invested south of the border to alleviate the need for, you know, some of the root causes of migration to the United States, just a drop in the bucket of that of those funds financing the proxy war. So it's, I mean it's the colonial nations and the and the control of global capital just really so sets the agenda. Unfortunately. Yes. Well, there's two things I'm thinking with you mentioned the, the Ecuador and oil exports have that has that in any way been affected by the US sanctions on Russia. And who to sell who customers selling to establish customer shipping any of it has any of that been affected. Well, global oil prices have gone up spikes since the war. Yes. Yeah, so that that a lot which is an international market for for oil right so that's definitely boosted Ecuador's oil oil prices. However, there's a very important thing that I don't think gets commented on is that under Korea, the Ecuador's share of the oil revenues increased dramatically also because he renegotiated the contracts with the multi nationals. So one of the, one of the things that then the right wing governments afterwards on the right on the last have been doing is, is gone in the other direction. So that's one, that's why they think about why is there's so much unrest and tension with with such high prices why isn't you know, just, you know, just directly subset I just move things over right with money. One reason he's limited doing that is because his policies been just given more that money to the multi nationals. So that's that's that's that limits his even if he wants to that limits his options for for doing the other thing is that in 2020 entering an agreement with the IMF. And it's the typical structural adjustment agreements that during the 90s again that's a major factor in the unrest that we had in that 96 to 2006 period when you had this constant, you know revolving chairs of presidents. So you're back to that as well with the IMF telling you what you can and can't do. And again, tying your hands and they did other things you know they they under Moreno they the instituted policy such that the government is limited and the way can even use its own resource like from its own like like Ecuador has a Ecuador has Ecuador has the US dollar. So you could say no say well why is it even have a central bank. The main things that central bank does is issue currency but the central bank in Ecuador does function in it like a bank and it does have play still play an important role in under Korea's government that that was a way they could they could you move money around within the right to to not rely so heavily on private financing. So now the obviously the big banking interests but they don't want that right they don't they don't want to go. They want the government to go to them. So, so that's another key change so all these change with all these things do and then there's the tax giveaways and everything else, but all these things do is that gives less money to the government so that they can smooth over the social problems right. They can make so so that limits that. Okay, financially starves off all the state infrastructure and intuitions was that guy who said starved the stock right the old Reagan era guy. Yeah that was. That's that's kind of the philosophy starved the star of the government so that it can't do anything for 10s it can't do everything. And then and then and then it all gets privatized. And then, and then you have all these problems and you have all this the social explosion because in a poor country like this you're really, I mean the suffering we're talking about here, I mean, it's because people are really suffering, and they have the feel that they have no option but the take to the streets. So what, what do you see in our last few minutes or I mean, there's so much that we can talk about what, what do you see potentially happening and I guess I asked this in the context, you know, specifically of what we saw in a year ago, and the national stripe there, which I did go and work as a human rights observer at late May of last year and is I will just share with the audience it is one of the reasons I was not allowed to be able to witness or to serve as an election observer presidential elections and they are because, because of what we did witness in May June of last year during the auto national in Colombia. And we've seen, you know, so we've got a really, really recent, not just historical experience in Columbia but we have a, you know, a next door neighbor to Ecuador now that, you know, has changed its government. And how much, you know, that's all up to the Colombian people how much is going to be able to happen, you know, with this new administration coming in will probably take multiple administrations to implement the changes needed. But here's this next door neighbor experience a year ago, that's led to a change in the government is something like that possible in Ecuador, given the vast majority of Ecuador and Ecuadorian citizens are affected by this horrible economic policy compounded with this global, you know, crisis with sanctions on Russia, I mean, it's really great. Well, I just, I want to say a lot depends on the on the CNE a lot depends on the state prosecutor because the state prosecutor just as soon as the CNE sat shut down the recall referendum. There was there was talk about impeaching members of the CNE, and the state prosecutor or could I don't handle it. He came down with a ruling that said, the CNE members can't be can't be impeached by the National Assembly because they're organizing elections for 2023. So which is I mean just on its face a ridiculous excuse right. You got six months or more. Yeah. Yeah, if they're that. So a lot depends on on how stubborn the those kind of people are in the government. It depends if they could finally some of them can start breaking away and start issuing rulings that make sense, and make this a democratic and let the mechanism settle this as opposed to forcing people into the streets, because what other option do you just sit there and suffer quietly. Or you're going to take the street so what I'm hoping is that eventually, either members of the CNE or different members of this apparatus stayed apparatus that's protected lasso that they that they cave just like the cave will be allowed to make the process of candidacy in 2025. I was not a done deal into the last minute. They really barely got through. They almost didn't allow Matt just think of that they didn't allow the movement that one has the largest block in the National Assembly that one the national, they almost didn't allow them to participate. So, but they did amazingly well. Yes, given that late start that they were. Yes, they did, but it just shows you well under extraordinarily difficult. So the resolution all these problems I think depends on on whether the these institutions can finally stop protecting lasso and start looking for a for a for a for to let voters decide this as opposed to some kind of trial of strength on the streets. I mean not that that can't be legitimate when there's no other option, but that's, we have they have our mechanisms to resolve this now through through voting. Those should be those should be those should be done, but hopefully they won't keep walking up because that's what they're doing they're trying to blocking the mechanisms that should resolve this through through through electoral means. And so next year 2023 are legislative elections and regional or. Yeah, they're like local local elections. Okay, local level elections yeah mayors. You know your names of all. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so we'll see what happens there but that's that's the, that's what I think I can't give a prediction but I think if, if they can start, if people can stop blocking the Democratic route and hopefully it'll be a way out of this that it'll, you know, be less disastrous. You know, put a break on all that there's these trend that's been going on since 2017 it's just been horrendous. Well, I mean, it's, it's very sad for people but it's also just, it's, you know, it's just one more example of the failure of neoliberalism and, and how violently imposed it is. You can never underestimate, you can never underestimate the level of violence and dishonesty that resort to, I think leftists do sometimes underestimate what they're up against. I think even, I think even Korea's movement underestimated what he was up against underestimated the amount, the number of opportunists and that he had within his ranks and guess that's another thing that hurt them was that, you know, Moreno was was in trouble but he came from their movement, right? Yes, yes. Oh, so that also damaged their credibility is, even if, even though they fought him from as soon as he showed what he was they immediately fought against it but still that that undermines people's confidence in your leadership. Exactly. So, so, yeah, you can never underestimate what you're up against and the ability of opportunistic elements to get in a weasel their way into your movement. Especially when you have these global North Colossus it's always got got its hands in there with the, with NGOs with, you know, through the CIA and everything else. So, all that money, all that money that, you know, US citizens could have reinvested in ourselves. Much less our neighbors as well. In 1964, I don't know if you've heard of Philip Beigie, right, the first big whistleblower of a long time. He the CIA whistleblower, he had his book inside the company talks about a lot about it because that's where he was based. And he said that in 1964, 1964, he said with 50,000 with a $50,000 per year budget. He said the CIA said well we're not controlling things but we're pretty much giving everything a big push the way we want to do it right the way we want things to go. So, that's that's that's a big fact. Well Joe I'm so thankful for your time this evening. It's, it's a Friday night and I'm just so thankful that you could join us again I always love working with you. And I hope that we can have you back as we watch things unfold in Ecuador. I think it's going to be really, really important, especially now with these elections. I really watch, because we're just seeing so much unfold throughout the hemisphere of the Americas, including your country in mind. Maybe not rapidly enough, but, or maybe for my country, kind of disastrous, but there are so many changes coming, and, and what we're seeing in Ecuador is so is not unlike what has been happening. You know, over the over the years. Throughout the hemisphere so it's going to be really important to watch Ecuador and I look forward to having you come back and talk more. Thanks for having me on appreciate. Oh no thank you so much. And I just want to thank our audience for for for listening and watching, and be sure to check this out next week we broadcast typically every Wednesday on code pink YouTube live and this Joe was so gracious to to join us this evening and we wanted to accommodate his availability, but you can catch us generally Wednesday nights on code pink YouTube live and be sure to catch code pink radio every Thursday 11am Eastern on WBAI out of New York City and WPFW out of Washington DC, both projects can also be found on Apple podcast and Spotify. And so we look forward to talking with all of you next week and again thank you so much Joe I really appreciate your time and it's always great you're always so insightful. Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to be the second take care.