 Hi everyone, and a warm welcome. I'm Orskasir. I'm with the Birkenstein Center for Internet and Society at Harvard University, and I have the great pleasure to be involved in the global network of internet and society centers. And today I'm particularly pleased to welcome my friend and colleague, Melanie Doulan, who's joining us from Paris. And Melanie, I'm so grateful that you carved out the time, despite a busy schedule, to be with us. You're the director of the Center for Internet and Society at C on RS, which is the French National Center for Science Scientific Research. And I was wondering whether you can briefly describe what your center is doing and how it relates to the French National Center for Scientific Research. Sure. Well, first, thank you very much, Orskasir, for the invitation and the opportunity to share with colleagues and friends of the network of centers and updates about the activities of our center. So the CNRS Center for Internet and Society was created two years ago by CNRS, which stands for the French National Center for Scientific Research, which is one of the national organizations, together with universities, which pilots research centers and hires researchers and works with professors and structures academia. So the format of our center is a bit peculiar because we're composed in two different parts. So first, a small research unit with 11 staff members. Not that small. It's not that small. Yeah, actually, we were four last time we met when we hosted the last NOC meeting during Paris IGF two years ago. So mostly researchers who are civil servants employed by French CNRS, a couple of postdocs based on projects, PhD students, and two admins who are also civil servants provided by CNRS. And unlike most research centers in France, we're not associated to a university. So previously we were a mixed unit with a Sorbonne University, but that's not the case. And so the second part of our center is a national wide network of actually all or well, many of French based and otherwise French speaking colleagues established in other universities, in other research centers, some also working in civil society organizations, and working on our shared topics of of internet and and society. And as of last week, I think, because we were writing these reports, we are, I think, 270 colleagues. And the work of the past year has been to bottom up a company and help as a structuration of all the activities of this network in clusters and in working groups. So this has been particularly nice. The past two years, we had the opportunity to meet a network and introduce researchers working, for instance, in computer science labs and lawyers. And they've developed projects on platforms, for instance, without us sometimes with us. So this has been particularly lovely to see these collaborations emerging. I was just about to ask, you know, what you're describing in addition to the structure of the center, it seems you have almost like a seismographic network of collaborators across France that may pick up on different signals in their disciplines of of change or of areas of opportunities as well as concerns. And along these lines, I was wondering, you just mentioned platforms, what are some of the trending topics that you see, you know, kind of bubbling up in this collaborative network? And what are maybe some of the focus areas of your center? And are these topics some sort of the ones we all talk about globally? Or would you say there are also special French flavors to to the topics and to, you know, the lenses maybe you apply? Yes, and yes. Without much surprise, the biggest cluster and interest of our colleagues and of ourselves in the smaller unit has been AI. And how artificial intelligence can be considered by social sciences with a critical perspective? What are the risks of algorithmic regulation? We have a working group of working with artists and studying how AI tools can be can be used by by artists. And we're going to co host a conference on on the topic next next year. Another working group working on health has been so gathering medical doctors, social scientists, lawyer, computer scientists and looking at digital digital tools. Some other projects have been working on surveillance, on fake news, on on the the modeling of the emergence of scientific topics and controversies online. And we had our yearly conference of the network last month. And the funniest session and the one for which we received the best feedback aimed at the deconstruction of of AI and explaining what we all mean by by AI through the prism of our disciplines of our research project. And we use the participatory methodology and on a sort of a shared blackboard. The facilitator wrote all the definitions on on on AI and how we could try to escape maybe the hype around the term and refocus on what we actually mean by by AI. Do we mean platforms? Do we mean digital tools? Or do we mean machine learning? So this was this was really, really fun. And we might have a second session. Yeah, and the term AI is and some of the conversation is almost like a Rorschach test where you can look at the picture and everyone can read different things into it. So I can relate to the exercise you're describing. Maybe just picking up on that topic since you mentioned the interdisciplinary network you've built and the work you do is deeply interdisciplinary breaching between law and policy and computer science, for instance, but also including involving arts and artists. What are some of the formats that that seem to work very well to create these bridges, especially because we have in different disciplines, so different perspectives and methodologies on on issues like AI, as we just discussed, what is it through events or do you have some sort of joint fellowship programs? Or is it mostly organized around projects, research projects to build these bridges across the different communities and different disciplines and methods? Well, what we've been doing before the incorporation of the research unit and a year after of the network was a series of workshops of participatory workshops with facilitators and post-its basically. So the idea was to bottom up identify topics, identify maybe not leaders but coordinators who would volunteer to to launch a working group and then accompany them with sometimes a core funding or lend a room or help for communication and they've been self-organizing and some have been organizing seminars, so in a very academic way. Some others have been working on projects and now currently we have three working groups, one working on digital and the environment, one working on internet governance and another one working on digital participation. They decided that they want to write a report on 5G, so we are using our core funding to help them and support this activity. Otherwise, one topic which is maybe more specific to France or at least Europe or to the personality to one of the co-founders of the center is digital comments. We have one working group working on the comments and one other on open science and society and in a couple of days a couple of us are participating to a pre-event at IGF with other friends of centers of the NOC and what is really interesting will have a member of the French government of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and who wrote a paper on digital comments so with a few European colleagues we're really excited because if governments embrace digital comments as a diplomatic tool maybe we'll be able to develop projects with policy makers as we've been doing in the past on other topics. Thank you for this great overview. There is so much to follow up on and we have only limited time. I'm personally very curious to hear what the working group on digital and environment is up to because I think that's definitely a trending topic also of course in the context of the sustainable development goals I feel more and more centers that the NOC brings together are you know sharing a deep interest and also young academics and people coming into the field are very concerned obviously what's the contribution of digital technology as we navigate this global challenge but also what our environmental problems cost or at least to which digital technology contributes in other ways. But I think we have to bracket that likewise of course digital health you mentioned that's another core area that we hopefully have more time to explore down the road given that we're in a pandemic where digital tools also play an increasingly important role in data. If I may however since you've been one of the thought leaders on comments and the idea of digital comments you've been among the leaders of creative comments in France early on you have been one of the champions behind the communion network which was a European-wide network dedicated to the comments and you've done work on many different legal issues question of copyright and comments and the like but also infrastructure and comments and I was just wondering as you were describing also some sort of the interest now at least in the French policymaker in this topic simultaneously looking at the discussion it seems we are more in the in discussions or movements that de-emphasize the comments where it's more about questions of sovereignty and who owns and controls what and it's just wondering what your reflections are as you look back I mean 15 20 years of your work on comments where have we arrived when it comes to this tension of you know traditional property type of structures or ways how we organize you know societies and and this some sort of more hopeful and and perhaps also ambitious concept of the comments what are what has happened in 20 years where are we today and what's ahead no small question but you're the person who can answer it if anyone well thank you very much for the very thought provoking question where are we well with surveillance capitalism and the concentration of of platforms and the risk which switched from copyrights to to privacy so as you've also been been working on since since 2020 years some questions like intermediary liabilities uh liability are still are still here but what would be the contribution of uh of the comments um well as you mentioned a few years ago maybe a decade ago comments where mostly studying uh studied as resources as digital comments but more recently we've also been studying infrastructure comments such as I can't resist the pleasure to show our beautiful last book on community I can highly recommend the congratulations and it's it's actually online and they hope we can we can share the link attached to this recording so thanks for putting it into the public domain and into the comments yeah it's open access so the hope would be that the comments will continue to to provide sustainable and valid alternatives to the dominant model which is neither sustainable uh economically or socially or environmentally so that would be the the hope that our research and our advocacy will contribute to to develop sustainable alternatives which should be helped and legally financially supported by by governments and the european commission has been has been really really active with the respect funding alternative internet and decentralized platforms and similar similar efforts so maybe as I last some sort of substantive question building upon this this very helpful some sort of big picture assessment and we're living in interesting times obviously and and looking at the internet and society space we see different versions for the future emerging we of course have have large players including china we we talk a lot about china us relations and at least since the enactment of the gdpr europe has become some sort of a interesting player too with some people hoping that this may lead a third way how we think about digital spaces and privacy and all the things you've already mentioned also now with efforts to create new infrastructures gaya x is a is an example initiative out of germany but joined by france and others right now that's more infrastructure focused and so i'm just curious like what's your sense of the role of europe and france in particular in these big conversations um uh that some sort of uh span uh you know all the different layers since you mentioned internet governance the whole stack of internet governance layers from infrastructure to copyright or privacy policy and business models and things like that do you think there is really such a a thing like a european way or a european approach to to think about these questions but also to shape policy and and build new infrastructures or really say well we're all it's one global world and it's messy and complex and europe may have different views on on several issues but not necessarily a third way what's your assessment is there is there a new clear pathway forward coming out of also the new commission and what we have to expect over the next a few months yes well i'm i'm convinced that uh europe has a lot to to contribute to to the global internet governance with the the gdpr and framework of privacy and maybe also a cultural perspective uh with with uh with regards to um yeah internet governance and uh this notion of uh of the commons and citizenship citizens rights participation we're currently with four members of our center working with Singapore surprisingly on on a project on smart cities and and AI in a very multi multicultural way and that's really what's uh what's expected from uh from us is to contribute and to to develop uh maybe a legal by design or social by by design uh framework for uh digital digital infrastructure which would build privacy and and sustainability uh from uh from scratch while well digital infrastructure is uh is being uh is being developed so definitely yes fascinating great i mean you mentioned it by invoking singapore and you also alluded to some of the other global collaborations that are on the way and i was just wondering as we as we wrap up uh what are good ways to get in touch with you and learn more about the work your center is doing and you know if there are concrete opportunities for collaboration how do we learn about that um my sense is that's a question at least we have berkman client get a lot like okay this all sounds great but how do i get involved and uh so i wanted to offer you the opportunity to maybe highlight one or two possible interfaces for colleagues who may want to reach out to you to learn more about your work so for french speaking colleagues it's easier because it's possible to register to the mailing list or to join the network and choose uh and choose working groups but we also have the possibility to host visiting researchers who haven't developed yet a formal fellowship program but informally we've been hosting inviting talks when people had the opportunity to travel for something else and be in paris we would the good old times when we were able to meet in person yes and we've been also hosting for several weeks or months visiting uh researchers last year a couple from uh australia one from from mexico so probably when things get back to to normal will organize a proper a proper program and otherwise one thing we really appreciated of all the previous uh NOC events was of course scientific conferences and and social events but also the breakout sessions where members of different centers could reflect either on a topic such as AI environment or sustainability or just reflect on the international the sorry the internal organization and development of a research center and for instance tools to to collaborate and engage with a national or linguistic or an international community so that was a particularly helpful for a younger center so i hope we'll get other opportunities to to discuss about uh collaboration tools so great yeah i was just about to ask what will be on your priority list to to talk about and share experience about and i take it as an invitation to talk more about collaboration tools in the broader sense and i think particularly now as we're having this soon call during a pandemic that's a topic more important than ever and it's just striking that you know despite all the progress made it feels we're still um such in a version 1.0 when it comes to collaborative tools so i will be definitely eager to sign up for that breakout group and learn from you and all others who may join us and i'll be happy to host and co-organize with you such a session so melanie it's been such a pleasure time has been too short as always but such a pleasure to hear about your center about your work some of the trending topics some of the challenges but also opportunities and i of course share your optimism that before too long you'll be able to meet again in person hopefully with many others from the network of centers and have longer and more sustained conversations thank you for your time melanie well thank you very much and i i really really look forward to opportunities of collaboration with uh with colleagues and friends of the network of centers and thank you for for the idea of this wonderful series i should thank you