 Hey everybody tonight, we're debating whether or not Jesus died by crucifixion and we are starting right now Mike Jones's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us Mike. The floor is all yours Let me share my screen here and I'll get going All right, can you see that James? I'm still clear Computer just froze. All right. There we go. Now. I got it. All right. Let me make that full screen for everybody All right. Well, thank you Thank you, James. Thank you to here for reaching out to me a few months ago and asking for the debate You from your videos you seem like a respectful nice guy. So I hope we have a cordial conversation With that said, let's dive right in Did Jesus die by crucifixion? Yeah, committee position is that Jesus was crucified, but somehow survived He was taken down from the cross the Roman soldiers assumed he was dead then Nicodemus supposedly a physician Healed him using alos they placed the unconscious Jesus in a tomb and then on the third day He emerged healed and appeared to his disciples all before going off to India to preach to the lost 10 tribes of Israel Then he died and was buried in that region If I've misrepresented your position to here then please correct me But this is the understanding I got from your videos in New Testament scholarship This is a variation of the swoon theory Which is the idea Jesus was crucified, but somehow survived the ordeal and lived a long life after Now to be honest it's odd We're even having this debate because this is not a debate mainstream New Testament scholars have The idea Jesus survived the crucifixion is soundly rejected by well over 99% of scholars So I'm representing the consensus position today Scholars have noted the evidence demonstrates Jesus's death by crucifixion is an historical fact John Dominic Crossin said Jesus's death by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be Gerd Ludemann said Jesus's death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable Bart Ehrman says that Jesus died by crucifixion is almost universally attested in our sources early and late We have traditions of Jesus's bloody execution and independent gospel sources throughout our various epistles and other writings and certainly in Paul everywhere in Paul The scholarly community is clear Jesus did not survive as crucifixion and the reason is because the evidence Overwhelmingly confirms he died as Ehrman said all our early sources point to this fact Tacitus says Jesus suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberias What could be more severe than death by crucifixion? Mara Barsara Pien's letter says Jesus was murdered the Talmud says that you sure was hanged and executed Josephus Lucian and Celsus also report Jesus was crucified and there's no hint that he survived Surviving crucifixion was not the norm. He was thought to have survived. We should expect them to have reported it But these are not even our best sources all early Christian sources that speak about the crucifixion Confirmed that he died Paul our earliest Christian writer says Jesus died In fact in 1st Corinthians 15 he cites a creed He received from the early church and scholars date this creed to just a few years after the crucifixion The reasons ours is because it's formed in a mnemonic structure with parallelism There's also less than 50 words and this shows it was an early creed for catechizing new Christians Calls Peter Cephas his Aramaic name would suggest the creed was early and it has independent traditions not contingent on the Gospels like the appearance to James and an independent appearance to Peter Gerald Collins says he doesn't know of any New Testament scholar who dates the creed after the 40s Michael Icona notes the consensus is that it dates to the 30s and within a few years of Pentecost So within a few years of the crucifixion the disciples reported Jesus had died in The Gospels they also confirmed Jesus died by crucifixion But also they report Jesus himself said he would die then after his resurrection Jesus explicitly says that he died Now Archimedes will try to claim Jesus said he would not die when he spoke of the sign of Jonah And I'll get to that in a bit, but let's not cherry-pick the words of Jesus We have direct quotes in the Gospels where Jesus says he died This should be the end of the debate right here early witnesses report Jesus died and Jesus himself confirmed that But before moving on let's quickly survey the first century sources that report Jesus survived the crucifixion And we're done because there aren't any the early sources all confirmed Jesus died on the cross Now proponents of the swoon theory argue that Jesus only appeared to die and they know John reported blood and water came out of his side If Jesus had actually died his heart would have stopped the blood would have congealed and water and blood should not have come out of him Additionally, they argue crucifixion with a was a long grueling process that sometimes would last for days But the Gospels report Jesus died within hours Surely Archimedes argued Jesus could not have died so fast Well, they're overlooking some important facts medical doctors Joseph Bergersen and Frederick Zuggabee note the facts laid out in the Gospels Confirmed Jesus died on the cross first his torture to not begin at the cross He was arrested the night before beaten by the soldiers of the Sanhedrin Scourge then beaten by Roman soldiers had a crown of thorns placed on his head Then he had to carry his cross to go goth up all without food and liquid Remember Jesus was so badly beaten and tortured he could not carry his cross all the way It was expected those condemned to die to carry the crosses to the execution site Jesus could not which tells us he was already in a bad state which would have contributed to a quicker death Sure, sometimes crucifixions would last for days, but if the victims suffered in other ways before getting to the cross That would lead to a quicker death Seneca the younger remarked that crucified victims would have many excuses for dying even before mounting the cross So depending on what torture occurred beforehand you could have died within hours The Jewish soldiers would have inflicted a severe beating on Jesus given his claim to be God Which would have been considered blasphemy to them then Jesus was scourged the Roman soldiers didn't go easy on and they would have scourged him all over Seneca the elder said scourging caused deep wounds and lacerated the flesh Eusebius said scourging resulted in the innermost veins arteries and inward parts of the body being exposed This would have led to a severe loss of blood Joseph Bergerson notes scourging and blunt trauma to the chest area can cause injury to the lungs with blood and fluid Collecting within the lung tissue the lung can also collapse, which is called pneumothorax Quote Jesus was in a weakened condition from the effects of multiple beatings fluid deprivation and blood loss more likely than not He was in the early stages of shock prior to being lifted on the to the cross Bergerson notes this is the most likely cause of his death Jesus suffered from traumatic hemorrhagic shock This is caused by decreased circulating blood volume as a result of injury and bleeding Extreme thirst can occur during shock which would correlate to Jesus saying that he thirsts on the cross Shock can occur when blood loss passes 10 percent at 45 percent blood volume loss reduction in blood return to the heart and decreased Resistance in the body's blood vessels will cause the blood pressure to drop to zero the effects of shock lead to cellular deterioration in multiple organs But also in 2003 researchers noted that shock and blood loss can lead to the body losing its ability to clot blood Which is known as trauma-induced coagulopathy Bergerson says patients with more extensive injuries have greater risk of developing coagulopathy Because the extent and degree of tissue injury is a major trigger injured cells cells that line blood vessels initiate clotting mechanisms With diffuse injury and widespread activation the blood the blood clotting mechanisms Necessary blood cells and chemical factors can be depleted and cause an imbalance between the blood's ability to clot and dissolve unnecessary clots To recap Jesus was severely beaten by Jewish soldiers the language of Luke's gospel Suggest a harsh ordeal from temple guards then Jesus was handed over to the Romans He was scourged and they would have scourged his whole body meat leading to massive blood loss But even after that the gospel's report He was beaten again by Roman soldiers and had a crown of thorns placed on his head which would have caused puncture wounds Given this torture we can infer Jesus was already in the early stages of shock He could not even carry his cross to go goth up which was expected of crucified victims This torture would have prevented his blood from clotting and the injuries He suffered would have resulted in fluid building up around his lung and most likely would have caused a collapse lung Thus Jesus went to shock on the cross and died So when John who was at the cross saw blood and water come out of his side This would be expected if Jesus had died from shock The blood could not clot and the spear that pierced his side would have unleashed the clear fluid from his lungs and blood as well Now early church fathers like origin consider this supernatural because he like Ahmadis today Also thought blood clutch blood clot should have prevented this from occurring But modern medical research indicates this would have been a natural result from a victim who suffered from severe beatings and shock So it's unlikely John made this up. It's probably something he witnessed Frederick Zuggieby said if I were to certify the cause of Jesus's death in my official capacity as medical examiner The death certificate was read as follows cause of death cardiac and respiratory arrest due to hypovolemic and traumatic shock due to crucifixion Furthermore, let's just say by amazing luck. Jesus was not fed at this point and only unconscious a Soldier shoved a spear into his side given it was their job to assure their victims were dead before the bodies were removed We can reasonably infer they aimed to pierce the heart I don't know about you But if I saw someone severely beaten scourge from head to toe then beaten again Then nailed to a cross and had a spear shoved into their side I bet my life savings they died and no amount of ancient healing methods would revive someone from this much blood loss I don't really care what allows ad available. Let's be reasonable even if by a miracle Jesus was not dead yet The spear in his side would have assured his death Josephus reported that after the destruction of Jerusalem He saw three of his friends on crosses and begged Titus to take them down Titus did so in order they be given the best medical treatment of the day yet only one survived Jesus was not given the best medical treatment and instead after suffering insurmountable torture had a spear shoved into his side Doesn't take a lot to realize he died a Roman soldier would forfeit his own life if he led a prisoner escape They would have shoved that spear and far enough to pierce the heart to verify Jesus was dead Moreover, these soldiers were trained to kill they knew when someone was dead and again early sources agree with his assessment He died on the cross Burgesson says to suggest that Jesus did not die when crucified is untenable Moreover to assure that Jesus was dead a Roman soldier delivered the coup de grâce of plunging a spear into Jesus's chest Collapsing his lung and rupturing his heart an article from the Journal of Mayor of American Medical Association stated Interpretations based on the assumption that Jesus did not down the cross appear to be at odds with modern medical research Now even if Jesus survived after the severe beatings to blood loss the spear going into his side aiming for his heart He was placed in a tomb for three days where he was given no medical attention No food and no water. How was he supposed to heal and push the stone away? There was no indication in the Gospels Nicodemus was a physician Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus were there to prepare his body according to Traditional Jewish customs for burial the mixture of myrrh and aloes was used to diminish the stench of a rotting corpse It was not for preserving a corpse or attempting to revive a dying man Frederick Zagabee says aloes and Mers have some minor antiseptic Effects, but what wouldn't begin to be of any value and one considers the extent of Jesus's injuries Craig Keener says when spices were used they were important not to preserve the corpse But to diminish the stench and in practice to pay final respects to the deceased Unless by a miracle we would not expect Jesus to come out of the tomb alive And if we get to positive miracle, let's go with what Jesus said that he died and resurrected There is no indication Jesus survived But if his followers saw him alive and walking around after the crucifixion Jockman he's except the only logical explanation is that he rose from the dead Not that he survived and was taking a long well-deserved nap in a tomb Now Muslims who want to argue Jesus did not die often appeal to the sign of Jonah For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish So will the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth To hear as argued this is Jesus claiming he would not die to quote when Jesus says my sign will be the sign of Jonah It clearly means that he will actually survive like Jonah that he will be in a circumstance Whereby he would actually be put in a situation where anybody else would die he will survive because of God's love for him This is not accurate for a number of reasons first is noted Jesus said he would die and rise These additional quotes from Jesus should help us understand that the sign of Jonah refers to Jesus being dead in the earth for three days Not alive But even without these references the sign of Jonah is not that Jesus would be alive like Jonah But that he'd be gone for three days if the sign of Jonah was that he'd be alive in the earth for three days It would have been stated like this or just as Jonah was alive in the belly of the great fish So will the son of man be alive in the heart of the earth? Jesus did not say that His comparison is not that he will share all the same ontological aspects with Jonah's experience But that'll be gone for the same length of time There is no way you we can read the sign of Jonah as implying that he would survive the crucifixion Here's aware of this argument and in the same video he responds by saying Jesus was hidden on the Friday night And he came out Sunday morning. It's two nights in a day and a half But this objection is the is a case of applying our own cultural understandings of time onto the ancient Jewish culture in that culture saying three days and three nights could refer to a period that was less than 72 hours and could refer to a period of Friday to Sunday Rabbi Eleazar of Venezuela said a day and a night are an owner and Up a portion of time in the portion of an owner is as the whole In other words, you can speak of the portion of a day as the whole we see this in the Bible Esther said she would fast for three days and three nights before going to see the king But then we read that she went to the king on the third day not the fourth in Matthew 27 the Pharisees report that Jesus said he would rise up rise after three days But they only requested to be made secure until the third day RT-France says the different phrasing of the three-day period compared with third day and the after three days is due to Septuagint wording but in the Semitic inclusive time reckoning These do not to know different periods as the pedantic Western reading would suggest So the shot sign of Jonah does not entail Jesus had to remain in the tomb for 72 hours He was in the tomb for part of Friday Saturday and part of Sunday The ancient Jewish context one could call this period three days and three nights So once again the sign of Jonah refers to the time length Jesus would be gone However, despite this, I'm not convinced Jonah even did survive his ordeal It's naturally impossible for someone to survive in a whale's stomach or any sea creature for that matter The book of Jonah does not record the God miraculously kept Jonah alive In fact, the text suggests the opposite that he died and went to shield Jonah says he went down to the roots of the mountains that he called out from the realm of the dead That he went down to the land whose bars closed on him forever, then God brought him up from the pit Brad Petrie says first when Jonah says that he cried out to God from the belly of Sheol in the pit These are standard Old Testament terms for the realm of the dead Second when Jonah says that his soul feigned within him This is another way of saying that he died. In other words Jonah's prayer is the last gasp of a dying man Thus when the fish vomits Jonah out onto the land it is a vomiting up of his corpse Finally with all this in mind notice what God's first first word to Jonah is arise This is the same semantic word that Jesus uses when he raises Jairus's daughter from the dead and says to her little girl I say to you arise in other words the story of Jonah is the story of his death and resurrection Also, I don't think Jonah was swallowed by an actual whale or fish I don't have much time to go into this my friend fan at exploring reality has a great video on this topic But basically the Hebrew word for fish dog is a general word that can refer to any sea creature And there are numerous illusions in Jonah that suggest the great sea creature was not a whale But the personification of watery chaos, which the Bible calls Leviathan In other words the chaotic seas were personified as a sea creature called Leviathan Basically the book of Jonah is using Hebraic idiomatic language to say that Jonah was swallowed up by the watery chaos of the sea And God brought him back to life after three days Which is why the text specifically mentioned shield the term for the underworld shield was said to be below the cosmic waters So Jonah was in the Leviathan watery chaos and brought down the shield God brought him up from the pit after Jonah cried out and thus he returned to life So even if the sign of Jonah referred to Jesus sharing the same status as Jonah Which it doesn't necessarily one can still make an argument from the text that eat that Jonah died and came back to life Which would parallel the account of Jesus dying and rising Finally, Ahmadis claimed that Jesus could not have died because his mission wasn't over He said he came to preach to the lost sheep of Israel, but in Judea There were only two tribes Judah and Benjamin So Jesus had to leave Judea and travel to another place like India to finish his preaching to the lost 10 tribes But the lost 10 tribes is a medieval myth. The Bible never mentions missing tribes After the Assyrian takeover we see members of the northern tribes were still there in the land many would have integrated with the kingdom of Judah Luke mentions Anna from the tribe of Asher in his gospel John mentions Levites James notes. He was writing to all 12 tribes After the Persian takeover they allowed all people to return to their respected homelands This decree would have allowed all Israelites deported by the Assyrians and Babylonians to return to Israel The Samaritans today even claim to send from the tribe of Ephraim, which is backed by genetic research So Jesus didn't have to go find missing tribes. The descendants of Israel were still in the land In conclusion the evidence confirms Jesus died on the cross Which is why scholars say this is an indisputable fact in all our early sources report Jesus died if the Akhmeti position is correct as well this creates a theological problem because All of the early followers of Jesus thought that he died Then later the Muslim start-up under Muhammad and they also did not take the Swoon theory They held to something like substitution or that Jesus actually died depending on what branch of Islam And then they didn't get the actual belief until the Akhmeti movement This sort of turns got into either a horrible communicator or the best of all deceivers because everyone thought Jesus died or was substituted However, I will say I like the Akhmeti position over what I see in traditional Sunni Islam with that Substitution theory nonsense because you guys accept Jesus was crucified that he and that he appeared to his disciples after But it would take nothing short of a miracle to confirm the Akhmeti belief that Jesus survived the crucifixion And if we have to pause in a miracle Let's go with what Jesus said what happened and did said he did happen after that he died and rose from the grave If Jesus appeared alive after his crucifixion the only logical explanation is he rose from the dead. Thank you Thank you very much for that opening We are going to kick it over to to hear for his opening as well before I do want to say folks Thanks so much for being with us here at modern-day debate I'm your host James and want to let you know as well. If it's your first time here Don't forget to hit that subscribe button. We have many more debates coming up and You can see those debates by making sure you get notifications by clicking subscribe right now with that here Thanks so much for being with us. The floor is all yours Thank you very much. Can you hear me? Okay? Yes Wonderful. So first of all to commend Michael and his excellent research and really appreciate that he's gone through a lot of our ideas and brought them to the fore For me which makes my job somewhat easier in some respects So first they're just gonna kick it off by going so did Jesus die on the cross? So Jesus piece beyond him is a beloved prophet in Islam And we also have our own views on him and I'm gonna go through some of the I'm gonna go through my view first Then we got a ten minute response. I understand So first woman cover this is the outline did Jesus claim he would be resurrected fact God save Jesus from death on the cross Where did Jesus go after surviving Christianity based on a circular argument and how the Quran illuminates the true story of Jesus so going first one So as he himself has mentioned I wanted to highlight this own sign of Jonah And I want to point out something that is very important, which is I mean you've mentioned a few things Michael Which I will hopefully respond to in my actual response But I think you've misrepresented to some extent the sign of Jonah here the sign of Jonah is the opposite claim of death So the sign of Jonah it's clearly mentioned in the Bible very clearly in the book of Jonah as well but the sign of Jonah was at the time of extreme peril Jonah in actual fact survived and Made it out of that perilous situation So he was in the stormy sea and a whale swallowed him You know, which is not a conventional thing to happen and he was in the belly of the whale praying to God This is what it says in the in the book of Jonah And then he was vomited out and then he returned to the Ninevites where he was accepted So the sign of Jonah is not about a time period In fact, if you look at the three accounts of which Jesus mentions the sign of Jonah It's only the time period is only mentioned in one of them in actual fact is mentioned Luke Matthew and and there's a third location as well I can get that up if you wish for the reply section But the sign is actually of survival because a sign is something that you know by which you know that God exists It's a it's an event which demonstrates the power and majesty of God If I go away out of town for three days and three nights, that doesn't mean I've shown the sign of Jonah It just means I've been absent for three days and three nights So Jesus couldn't have shown the sign of Jonah by just being absent Okay, it's not related to the time period and as I have pointed out to you I have pointed out in the past that's evidently not how long he was away According to the Jewish custom sunset occurred sunset other than the previous day was actually the first day of the new day So at best he was away for Two nights and three days if you really want to have it as an absolute stretch But as I mentioned the sign isn't of time period the sign which proved God's existence or was a manifestation of God's attributes Was that Jonah was in a perilous situation and yet he survived And we know what the sign of Jonah is because Jonah tells us about it So and you've quoted a little bit of well as well, but I think you've somewhat misrepresented it He said from the deep in the realm of the dead You're absolutely right in the place of shale. I called for help and you listened to my cry Now what was his call for help to which God listened his call for help was oh God save me It wasn't oh God let me die Let me suffer the state of death and then bring me back It was to save him from death That was an actual fact the the prayer that he made so to say that God listened to him But let him die when he was praying to be saved is a contradiction and the book of Jonah makes absolutely clear So the roots of the mountains I sank down the earth beneath me barred me in forever But you Lord my God brought my life up from the pit This is a story of somebody who is being saved from death death and that's always been the conventional Belief and understanding and you know if you have a very idiosyncratic and unique way of looking at it And that's up to you but that's not the conventional understanding of the sign of Jonah or indeed the events of Jonah's life and Isaiah 53 so this clearly contradicts Jesus's claim would be Jesus He would die and the only way you can understand Jesus Yeah, I would die and come back to that as you mentioned is you can only understand it how how Jonah mentioned it Which is from deep in the realm of the dead To be raised to him from crucifixion To be raised from the dead doesn't mean to be raised from the state of death It means to be raised from the place of the dead Jesus was crucified He was put in the tomb and then he came he appeared to come back to life or rather he rose his mission rose his Shooting new lights by demonstration that he had survived the crucifixion So this is an actual fact in Isaiah 53 We also, you know, this is a clear prophecy about what Jesus would go through and Christians use it all the time to prove it But if you read it carefully, it's very clear that Jesus an actual fact is mentioned here that he would be bruised But that God would initially put him to grief, but he shall see his seed He shall prolong his days. Now if you say prolong his days, what does that mean? It means to be that the the period of time between your suffering and your death is put off That you have a longer life to say that his days were prolonged because he died and came back to life And then he lived a very long time is nonsense because everybody who's crew everybody who's who dies and then Will be brought back to life on the day of judgment. We will all have eternal life, right? So to be have your days prolonged and to see your seed, which is what's mentioned in Isaiah 53 Is a clear statement that Jesus will actually survive that he would be granted a long life and see his distant progeny But Jesus's actions ultimately speak louder than his words death was never part of the plan You know here we have in the Garden of Gethsemane him praying abba abba Take this bitter cup of death away from me not as I will as as but as you will and when he thought that he was dying On the cross he cries out my God my Forsaken me this is not the condition of somebody who thinks it's all going according to plan if death was the plan all along and he had stated it and he meant it and indeed if he had meant it to be death and Resurrection the question you have to ask yourself is well Why is it that the disciples did not understand what was being said according to you? He had you know raised many people from the dead debt from the dead daughter of Jarius Which will come back to Lazarus etc. If they had seen so many people being raised from the dead Then why was it so difficult for them to understand? So this is quite clearly if a person prays to be saved from death And then when they think they're dying they say why have you forsaken me? You can put whatever Christian spin you want on it in terms of all the shadow of sin was upon him And he was being he was despairing of the mercy of God etc But the reality is a plain reading of this is that he didn't want to die and he didn't think it was part of the plan And the reason is why didn't she didn't Crucified and simple answer is is because to be crucified to death According to Deutronomy was to be proven that you are false in your claim that you are a false prophet They had spoken falsely in the name of God and so Jesus wasn't afraid of death It wasn't death that he was afraid of what he was afraid of an actual fact was that People would reject the message which with which he had been sent that was actually in actual fact his main fear So how God saved Jesus from death on the cross I'm going to go through a few things the length of crucifixion you've highlighted very well Thank you very much He was put on the cross at 9 in the morning and he was taken off from about at about 3 p.m From what I understand It was approximately a six-hour period and and you make mention of the fact that oh well, you know Josephus had three friends on the cross and two they were taken down and two had died and one survived and the answer is yes Well one survived This was an actual fact known to happen people did survive crucifixion at times And the important thing about this is is you make a big deal about the fact that they were flogged etc The flogging was part of the crucifixion as you're quite rightly say But the key point I want to make is that two people were actually crucified with Jesus the two robbers and Both the robbers were still alive at the time when Jesus was thought to have died So that is something that Christians have to explain away then isn't it really because you had a contemporary to contemporary individual Contemporaneous individuals who were both crucified at the same time who went presumably through the similar process It was all this part of the same process and they were still alive and The key point of this is that pilot I mean you talk about Roman guards, etc pilot put people to death on the regular Okay, and he was surprised that Jesus has died and we know We know the pilot didn't want anything to do with it because God had sent a dream To pilots wife saying do you not have anything to do with that righteous man? So my pilot marveled that he was already dead so you can say that they are well It was perfectly obvious that he had died after six hours But the guy who put people to death on the regular he was amazed that he would they were already dead So you can't just write that off and say oh well, you know, he must have therefore died The second point to make is that his bones were not broken now This is the key. This is the main focus of the event in a way when they came to Jesus So the robbers were who are with Jesus they broke their legs because they were evidently still alive to hasten on their death They gave them femoral fractures massive trauma injuries They died very soon afterwards when they came to Jesus his head was presumably slumped. He looked like he died They they struck him with the spear and I'm afraid a Christian sometimes misrepresent this strike He was not being struck to kill him The spear wasn't there to kill him The spear was a primitive way to check whether Jesus had in actual fact died by causing a painful injury To see if he would they would elicit a response There was no response and as you made mention blood and water gushed out and and blood does not rush out of a dead body This is particularly what I want to emphasize and you know, I don't know if you know But I'm an intensive care doctor so citing Christian medical people is kind of a bit a bit Not the best tactic with me if I may say so I'm sure there are Christian intensive care doctors So I'm not gonna make a meal out of that But I want to emphasize a few things one the the actual Greek says that something coming out immediately straight away Rapidly forthwith that's youth ease. Okay, and the key point I want to make here about the blood and water coming out is that Christians make out that this is the separation of the blood and Plasma now the simple answer is is that when blood separates from plasma Okay, and if the water was the plasma You wouldn't get any blood coming out because by definition it's coagulated so you can claim that there's a coagulopathy of trauma But if there was a coagulopathy of trauma that it would still be mixed with the plasma So if the water was the plasma Then there would be no blood and and that's just one point the second point is Whether you when you cut a dead body nothing gushes out nothing rushes out Rushing out indicates a beating heart and this is why the writer of John's Gospel says that he witnessed this with his own eyes He's giving you the hint that Jesus an actual fact survived So the medicinal ointment you talk about as if it was a you you parrot the the point of the Jewish burial custom It's never been the Jewish burial custom to embalm the dead And if you look at how many pounds seventy five pounds and old money of Roman is about 35 kilograms Nobody brings 35 kilograms to embalm somebody in a procedure which has never been part of the the Jewish custom Embalming was it was it was actually a an Egyptian custom. It certainly wasn't a Jewish custom It still isn't a Jewish custom to the stay and the myrrh and aloes are healing herbs Myrrh and aloes are still used to this day I love eras use as a as a healing herb for point for wounds in particular and traumatic wounds But the big thing I always like to say in a way is quite funny because um, you know The greatest proof that Jesus didn't die on the cross Is the fact that he didn't die and I'm gonna explain what I mean by that So here Jesus appears to the two 24 and they say are you a ghost now? What is a ghost a ghost is a is a person post death Okay, and he says no, I'm not a ghost Touch me and make sure that I'm not a ghost because ghosts don't have bodies as I do and he showed them his hands and his feet And then he said do you have anything to eat now? You know Christians always like to make out that this is the post resurrection glorify body The question they have to answer is why does he still have bodily needs if he isn't an eternal body To live in heaven forever with God What's he still eating broiled fish for and he ate it as they watched So this is clearly indicating a plain reading of this is a person post assassination attempt Who has the same wounds of the assassination attempt saying no, it's really me Can you believe it? I can't believe it either And even if Jesus did believe he was dead, let's say Jesus believed he had died The simple Occam's razor is still in actual fact that he had survived the crucifixion So where did Jesus go after surviving? I've got seven minutes and a half if I'm correct In understanding, please let me know if that's correct Okay, um, so where did Jesus go after surviving? The answer is that he went to seek the lost tribes of Israel Jesus went where he said he would go now you make out like there's no historical You know facts or evidence that in actual fact the lost sheep of the house of israel are scattered over to bettenapole Hashmir and afghanistan But the fact of the matter is that Jesus said these words. I have other sheep that are not of this fold I must bring them also and they will listen to my voice So there will be one flock and one shepherd He didn't say there will be one flock and 10 different shepherds consisting of all of his disciples going to see them He said there'll be one flock and one shepherd So Christians have to explain this if he ascended to heaven miraculously and has been there for 2000 years Why didn't he fulfill his words and find those other sheep? So you can claim there's no historical evidence But Jesus certainly believed that there were lost sheep for the house of israel and an actual fact that's demonstrated in this book very nicely But this is really the smoking gun. This is the gun that really I mean this This is the nail in the coffin. I would say to the question of whether Jesus survived the crucifixion or not Jesus is mentioned in first century hindu texts From 78 ad onwards king charlie vana is meant this is the bhavis yamaha purana hinduism has nothing to do with christianity Has nothing to do with islam. Okay King charlie vana was the king of this region in kashmir from 78 ad to 102 ad And he comes across a man In the hills. This is in sanskrit. Okay, and he asks him He's fair skinned this man a beautiful man who is golden in complexion whose clothes are white He said i am the son of ishwara ishwara in hinduism isn't just any god. It's the supreme deity He was claiming here that i am the son of god in the same way jesus used this metaphorical term and i was born from a virgin I call myself isha masihi the prophet and i've taken to prophethood He said i preached these principles. He talks about his religion He says i preached these principles in the mlekas the mlekas of the foreign people In their own faith and thus my name is isha masihi, which is very similar to the word yashua masihi means messiah So we have any explains a little bit more about how he was persecuted in that land how he led to that to the east So we have in the first century hindu scriptures 40 years after the crucifixion We have an individual whose name is a phonetic form of yeshua masi jesus the messiah He was persecuting a foreign land born of a virgin Called himself the son of god and whose religion if you just read that text more clearly Is of speaking the truth meditating and worshiping the supreme being these are Aspects of no other human being in the history of the world other than jesus christ So christians have to explain what is jesus doing? in 78 ad post hindu texts Which has nothing to do with christianity nothing to do with islam They have to explain these findings So the question is also where did mother mary go? You know mother mary suddenly upton disappeared And nobody knows where she went and the catholics believe that the doctrine of assumption that she was assumed to have gone to heaven And the simple answer is she went with her son. She disappeared with her son They were on the border of the eastern they were on the eastern border of the roman empire and to get away from the romans after surviving He migrated east and this is the tomb of jesus christ He's buried at a place called surah negar, which means the site of the skull Which is the same actually as the the meaning of golgotha and you can see you can On his tomb where on his two outside his tomb. There is an ancient Um imprint of the man's feet who is buried in a jewish tradition Not in the islamic tradition who's buried 1900 years ago which shows the marks of crucifixion on his feet And i just want to finish on this point just this is very important And i just want to kind of focus on this let's look at the facts plainly Let's call let's have a guy called jim. Let's take this away from jesus take it away from christianity We got a guy called jim who says his miracle will be near death experience. It will be survival That's the sign He prays the night before not to die. He berates people for not praying with him to not To be saved he has an assassination attempt on him He has a beating heart that at the time of supposed death an eyewitness says the blood rushed out Rushing does not happen in a in a beating in any situation other than the beating heart He's treated with medicinal herbs for in isolation for 48 hours. He appears afterwards to his friends with the wound still fresh He denies being a ghost. He proves his body exists and he has needs by eating bread and fish and asking them showing he has appetite He hides under the cover of darkness. He flees His mother disappears at the same time somehow And then he's found mentioned 40 years later in a whole different part of the world With exactly his characteristics. He has children there as per the prophecy of isai 53 He dies and this tomb is found there which shows the marks crucifixion and this is what I want to get out This is kind of the most important thing for me. I really want to emphasize this point The only reason christians even entertain the hypothesis of resurrection When it's plainly a fact that if you see somebody after an assassination attempt If I see somebody with who I saw was hanged and he has the marks of him around his neck that He was hanged and I say to him my god jim How did you survive? You know what? I do you must have come back from the dead? I can still see the marks around me because no no no look look feel it I'm not a ghost Do you have any bread and fish with you and you feel his neck and you can feel the indentation of the thing You what will you say? You'll say my god. I can't believe it's amazing how you survive That's what you would say the only reason christians entertain the resurrection hypothesis Is because they have a preset position that jesus was god, but to prove that jesus was god They they they supported by saying he was raised from the dead So to support the resurrection they use his divinity and to support his divinity. Guess what they use his resurrection It's a complete circular argument When you look at it from the plain reading of the facts of a man post assassination attempt Giving me excitingly medical findings as to why a man rose from the dead is absurd Well, there's no medical evidence that anybody can rise from the dead So that's that's the main and fundamental thing. I want to just finish on this point I think I've got one minute left if that's right How the Quran illuminates the true story of jesus Okay, the Quran states and you mentioned a bit about Islam We can go into this a little bit the Quran and Muhammad peace beyond him the prophet of Islam Stated the Ahmadiyya viewpoint not any other viewpoint. No no substitution theory in the Quran at all It says in the Quran that the Jews say we killed the Messiah son of Mary jesus The messenger of god whereas they slew him not nor crucified him But he was made to appear to them like one The subject of this statement is always jesus it is never The subject here Means he was made he jesus was made to appear them as one crucified And it says finally in the Quran Quran made the son of Mary and his mother a sign and gave him shelter on an elevated land of green Valleys and springs of running water and the word used there is in actual fact related to Refuge given after suffering persecution. This is all found in the book jesus in india I recommend you go away and read it by the founder of the Ahmadiyya community who claimed to be the Second coming of christ within the body of Islam And that's it You got it. Thank you very much for that opening as well And folks want to let you know before we jump into the rebuttals If you haven't yet hit like on this video if you're enjoying it Not for me, but for you so that the youtube algorithm knows what to recommend more to you So with that we're going to jump into the rebuttals. Thanks very much. Mike the floor is all yours Well, thank you for that to hear Appreciate the response a lot of issues. I see with that for one thing again all the scholars today see jesus died Even scholars do not even accept the resurrection hypothesis Jesus himself said he would die. You said that he claimed he would rise from the place of the dead Now, let me read Matthew 17 Jesus said to them the son of man is about to be delivered into the hands of men They will kill him Hey mark nine The son of man is going to be delivered to the hands of men They will kill him and when he is killed after three days he will rise doesn't say place of dead It says kill Okay, so it's very clear Jesus said he was going to die and after he said he rose from the dead With regards to the sign of Jonah again, there's nothing in there that says it has to be about survival This is an assumption you're adding to the text. It also doesn't say whale The scholarly community says it most likely was a Leviathan like the paper I cited there So there's something you got to take into consideration. Yes, Jonah made it through a difficult ordeal But again, it says he went down to shield. This implies death and resurrection But again, it's about the length of time and again It's in the ancient jewish context as I cited sources There was a motif three days and three nights could refer to a period from Friday to Sunday Now with regards to the sign of Jonah, there's one place it is also mentioned It's in Matthew 16. Jesus brings up the sign of Jonah again and then later in the chapter He tells his disciples I'm going to be killed Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him saying far be it from you lord This shall never happen to you but turning and said to Peter get behind me satan Satan your hindrance to me So Jesus directly said if you deny that he's going to die, that's of satan. That's not coming from me That's coming from satan Jesus also did not say he rose from the place of the dead luke 2446 says he rose from the dead necron That's what that word means. You mentioned Isaiah 53 But I would agree with the scholarly community. This is not a direct prophecy. This is a typological prophecy A direct prophecy be something like Zechariah 9 9 A typological prophecy is something where there is a pattern in the Old Testament that Jesus fulfilled in Isaiah The suffering servant is Israel read Isaiah 40 Isaiah 41 Directly calls it Israel the suffering servant theme continues to Isaiah 53 Jesus typologically fulfills this as the fulfillment of Israel's scriptures So often we get this wrong a lot of the prophecies in the New Testament are typological fulfillments Okay, so you asked why didn't Jesus disciples understand that when he said he was going to die? Well, look at the cultural context the Jews of the time were inundated with the idea that Messiah would be a conquering Messiah That he would have to defeat the Romans if he died that would that would have been completely divorced from their cultural background So they were still inundated with that and didn't understand what Jesus was talking about You mentioned Josephus and the survival of his three friends. This is not a comparison to Jesus Because again, we don't have the accounts of the thieves of the cross what torture they went through The thieves didn't have crowns of thorns shoved into their head. They weren't severely beaten multiple times We don't know how horrible their scourging was Jesus was severely beaten because he was claiming to be a king in the Romans eyes And so they would have been quite harsh on them. You mentioned Pilate being surprised Well, but let's take some things into consideration. Let's go to Josephus antiquities book 18 chapter 3 So this is a different event Pilate wants to build an aqueduct and he's using temple funds to construct the aqueduct The jews protest for this and so Pilate puts soldiers in the roman crowd And he's going to give the signal to cause people to be beat Uh, so the crowds disperse so then Josephus says so he bid the jews himself go away But they boldly casting the reproaches upon him and he gave the soldiers a signal Which was which had been before an agreed on who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them and equally punished those that were uh That were riding and those that were not nor did they spare them in the least Uh, so and he mentions that some of them even died So what he basically points out is that Pilate wanted them to go easy on the people The soldiers went far harsher than what Pilate expected. This is probably the same thing that happened for Jesus He said scourge him Uh, and they probably went far harsher than what Pilate had expected We already see the steam and Josephus of Pilate giving orders and his soldiers taking things too far the same thing happened with jesus In john you mentioned the spear going in the site. He does not say blood gushed out It just says blood and water came out of him and I can quote again medical doctor Frederick zuggaby who had quoted my opening statement He says I have investigated over 25 000 deaths and I performed over 10 000 autopsies Over 34 years during my tenure as chief medical examiner of rockland county new york And I have seen that blood Commonly flows out of the wounds of dead bodies Particularly in victims of violent death blood remains uncluttered in most victims of violent death because of the increased in certain chemical factors All right, so again same thing. He points out that joseph bergerson says okay that Blood definitely can't come out of a body depending on how much trauma they suffered. You mentioned the water being plasma I didn't argue with plasma. It was probably more like again fluid in it around his lung tissue Okay, you mentioned embalming the jesus. They were you there and bomb No one argues jesus was embalmed. That's not what joseph of aramethia and nicodemus were doing They were there to cover his body with uh spices to prevent the smell of a rotting corpse as I cited craig keener on that They do not argue. He was there to be embalmed and they were definitely not there to revive Okay, as I cited Frederick zuggaby in my uh opening statement The allows would not be enough to heal jesus given the amount of blood loss Okay, uh, you mentioned you quote put on the screen luke 24 36 to 43 as an evidence that jesus survived the crucifixion and you say let's just take the plain reading But you didn't read verse 45 and 46 Says then he jesus opened their minds to understand the understand the scriptures and he said to them Thus it is written that the christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead again that word necron It doesn't say place of the dead. It says he would rise from the dead. So the plain reading is that jesus rose from the dead Okay, if they if jesus thought he had died and came back to life. Okay, then What evidence do we have if you're if you're conceding that then literally everyone for hundreds of years Including jesus himself said that he died and all of a sudden the arpanies come Centuries later and somehow get it right that doesn't make sense Again, medical doctors like joseph berger front berger sin and frederick zuggabee note the facts laid out in the gospels Clearly indicates jesus died from traumatic shock. Okay, you mentioned the last 10 tribes. Again, this is a medieval myth This came about in the middle ages after the europeans had lost the holy land to the muslims again So they invented this myth about the lost 10 tribes. There was this far-off king named prestor john He was holding them back This myth continued throughout the middle ages and when we discovered the new world Many people thought the native americans living over there were actually lost israelites We see this in the writings of the pilgrims. This is a medieval myth Do I put scriptures you can see it in chronicles you can see it in luke You can see in the book of james the 12 tribes are still there They would have integrated with judah after the assyrian exile. This is just what the standard scholarship was There's no evidence jesus went to india again. This has been highly critiqued by scholars like her besko and his book strange tales about jesus going to gran bold jesus in india Nor about klot also has a book about this Okay, and even if jesus did go to india, this still would not prove your case that jesus did not die Mormons, for example, believed jesus died before he flew off to america to teach all the white people in mexico about mormonism Okay, even if jesus did go to india. He still could have died and rose from the dead But again, none of that is actually relevant for the actual debate here because jesus still died The evidence overwhelmingly confirms that even if by some strange theory he went out in the after One could still argue that he died. You asked where was mother mary? Okay, well, let's just read the book of ax ax 114 says all these things were cord We're all these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer together with the women and marry the mother of jesus and his brothers So after jesus's ascension mary is still with the church in jerusalem She didn't go far out the gospel of john says that he took mary into her house To this day. So she was still there. She never left jerusalem So again, the bible debunks that myth as well the tomb you mentioned is not mentioned in text until the 17th century No archaeologists or scholar today has said this is the tomb of jesus. This is just an awkwardly belief If you want to argue for that, uh, I would need some evidence But again, this also would not support your idea because again, jesus could have died came back to life like Position like lazarus did and then died again later. So again still doesn't support your argument here, which is that did jesus die or not You try to argue this circular that say christians use this circular reasoning argument say jesus is god No, jesus said himself that he was gone in matthew seven for example He says that everyone who comes to me and says lord lord want to the kingdom of heaven Now that phrase lord lord is very interesting when the heber bible was translated into the greek septuagint At times you would see places like adonai plus the divine name adonai yaway when that is translated into the greek septuagint It becomes lord lord And his scholars like michael patrick barber and jason staples have noted anytime you see the phrase lord lord in greek That's a direct direct reference to the tetragrammaton in jesus In matthew and luke says he is lord lord john a 58 He says before abraham was i am which is a first person representation of what we've seen the septuagint of Psalm 92 where he's for the mountains were you are so there's that There's no medical evidence. Uh, you said there's no medical evidence anyone could rise from the dead. Well, yeah, we agree This is this this was a miracle. We don't say this was something that naturally happened This is just a humane style argument as for the chron irrelevant. It's not point. It's a text much later And there's also various different ways muslims interpret that so with that my time is up Thank you very much for that rebuttal And want to let you know folks before we jump into the next rebuttal if you haven't yet check out modern day debate on your favorite podcast app It is ad free 100% so as you can see the bottom right of your screen we're available on every podcast app Look up modern day debate on your favorite podcast app and listen to debates on the go and add free Now we're gonna kick it over to to hear. Thank you very much. The floor is all yours Thanks very much and again, Michael. Thank you for a well-reasoned Arguments and you know, well, I disagree with you, but let's let's go through the meat of it and see what we get out to So the first thing I want to to note is that you didn't really address the main You know some of the main points I mean in particular you didn't address a tall dimension of Jesus in hindu scriptures Which I appreciate just probably the first time you've seen that that quote But I would really encourage you to go away and to look up that and and read into it Um, the second thing is is you know, when you you cite many instances where Jesus says oh why he died? Well, if we want to really understand that a simple way to understand that is an actual fact What Jesus said with respect to the daughter of jairus and you've actually mentioned that before so luke 849 55 There was a young girl the daughter of jairus Who people have believed had died and when I'll quote the bible directly when he arrived at the house of jairus He did not let anyone go in there with him except peter john and james and the child's father and mother Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her stop wailing. Jesus said she is not dead But asleep So the reality is is that you are misrep not not deliberately I don't want to make any accusations, but I feel that you're misrepresenting What it was common parlance in in those times and we know that jesus spoke in parables So if he was to say that he was was to die and be raised from the dead That's that's and he also talks about himself having the sign of jonah And we the classical sign of jonah and how his people the people he remember We have to understand the sign of jonah how jesus's Listeners would have understood the sign of jonah. It doesn't matter what you think the sign of jonah is What matters is how jesus used the sign of jonah to explain his own future situation So when he said that my sign will be the sign of jonah What did his listeners understand the listeners would have understood that the sign of jonah by which gods Attributes by which his magnificence was demonstrated was that a man at a time of peril and when he was about to be killed Then god saved him from death It's your post hoc interpretation 2000 years later may is one thing and i'm not saying you're wrong per se I disagree with you, but the standard understanding that jesus's listeners would have understood and which jesus would have understood they understood And by which he used to communicate his future condition Was the sign of being close to death and being saved. So when he says i was in sheol I was in i was in the underworld and you brought me back They call metaphorical language for a state in which you have even in english We have this phrase you have one foot in the grave, right? This doesn't mean you're actually literally dead and you literally have one foot in the grave These are metaphors of language which you must understand and appreciate as jesus spoke in parables He used the daughter of jesus everybody thought that she was dead and he said no, she is not dead She was only asleep So this is a kind of state of near death which was described as dead in those days But was not actual clinical death and that's the thing that we're actually discussing here The appeal to authority which is what you've done for most of your initial presentation if i may say so It doesn't help i mean appealing to christian or or even non christian people who say that you know jesus died Isn't it relevancy pointing to to medical scholars who say that oh, well if i was there i would have considered him to be dead You can just go on google and you can look up man certified as dead comes back to life in the morgue Okay, there are multiple instances with modern medical technology of using stethoscopes listening for heartbeats feeling for pulses You know when you have somebody lying on a bed in front of you Where doctors get it wrong and once in a while you get a person coming who wakes up in the morgue three days later Look it up on google There's this one spanish man who was certified by hit confirmed by three different doctors is dead and he was actually alive so The idea that you know in the darkness when jesus is up there You know, you can't see him the sun has been eclipsed and earthquake has happened The roman soldiers are worried about the condition of their family at home, right? That they from four or five meters away will be able to tell if somebody's dead Without feeling his pulses without listening to his chest with the stethoscope when modern day doctors get it wrong Sometimes right is absurd. Okay, that that that seems a bit absurd to me No, sorry. I don't want to be rude or anything, but that seems strange to me. Okay, so Then the question is did jesus believe he would die You know jesus's words are one thing and words can also be interpolated We know that the bible has been post hoc interpolated But the question is did jesus believe he would die now if he believed he would die Then what was he doing praying the night before saying take this bitter cup of death away from What was he doing on the cross saying elie elie la massa baccani? Oh my lord, my lord, why has thou forsaken me? These are not the words a plain reading of this again Not the post hoc christian interpretation filtered through the lens of paul Just a simple reading of a man on a cross who believes that he would survive crying My god, my god, why have you forsaken me? This is clearly the words of a man who did not think that death was part of the plan So you're arguing that he said that oh, he said this he said this one It could be interpolation two could be parables It could be metaphorical language in the same way jonah spoke that I was in the land of the dead I had one foot in the grave and yet you saved me. Oh god Then the question is is did the disciples believe that he would he had died now This is one particular thing. I want to really focus on you know in ax 21 We have the example of paul coming back to jerusalem after his three journeys After he's written romans carinthians and galatians in which all of the modern day creeds And and doctrines of modern day christianity are found and originate in actual fact And and and james says to paul what james says to paul He says there are jews from asia who have believed From amongst those jews who have believed in jesus and i'll bring you up the specific quote in actual fact He says this is in ax 21 20 21 20 21 21 sorry, but they have been informed about you You see brother how many myriad of jews there are who have believed these are jews who believed in jesus. He's talking about Jews who have believed in jesus and they are all zealous for the law But they have been informed about you that you teach all the jews who are among the gentiles to forsake moses Saying they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to their customs What then the assembly must certainly meet for they will hear that you have come Take these three men be purified with them pay their expenses Shave your heads that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing But that you yourself also walk orderly And keep the law of moses This is an example where at the end of writing all of modern day christian doctrines paul comes back to jerusalem And james the just who knew jesus much better understood jesus's teachings much better He tells jesus he tells paul that there are jews who have believed in jesus Who are offended by your doctrines that um, you do not need to circumcise your children that you do not need to follow The law of moses that you do not need to follow the traditions of of of moses anymore And that jesus's sacrifice is enough for you on the cross because that's what's written in galatians remands and prithians And he says to them he says to paul repent He says publicly repent in the temple with these three men who are like you So that all may know that all of these accusations are nothing and you also keep the law of moses And what does paul do does he turn around go? Hey, hey, hey james I'm uh, I've got to tell you you've misunderstood jesus his message jesus died on the cross for us We no longer need to follow the law of moses actually. What does he do? He shaves his head. He publicly repents I'm I'm basing is that the author Of modern-day christian doctrines repents publicly as recorded in acts 21 of modern-day christian doctrines And then what happens those jews who had believed in jesus they find him in the temple what james warned about him about Actually happens they mob him. They nearly kill him And then the romans have to arrest paul to save his life So the idea that there was no difference of opinion about the uh among the early christians about jesus's death is clearly False because there clearly is it stated very clearly in acts 21 And according to james there was no abs there was no uh new testament which had obviated the law of moses And in fact there was even a watered-down law for the gentiles that they still had to follow which he did surprise He says they must keep themselves from things offered to idols from blood from things strangled and from sexual immorality Do you ever tell new christians who become a christian? Do you tell them or you become a christian? But still you can't sleep with your girlfriend outside of marriage and also you can't have rare steak anymore So and if anything's been strangled you can't have it's all the chicken and kfc that dies from asphyxiation You can't have that do anybody and what about if jew becomes a christian? Do they still have to keep the law of moses because james had just thought that they did So there's that as well. So finally the question i want to end on the point I want to end on is that we don't differ about the fact that jesus went through the crucifixion We believe we have a different interpretation Of the facts and we have a common sense interpretation of the facts if you see a man walking around after a crucifixion attempt And he's got the wounds on him. He wants brilliant. He wants food. He asks for food Even if he thinks that he came back from the dead He didn't come from back from the dead Okay, because that is an actual fact a common sense occam's razor That's common sense occam's razor when you see a man post assassination attempt with the wounds from his body It means he survived that is the basic fresh understanding and we believe that this is an actual fact proof of jesus's truth We're not trying to say that jesus was a liar We're saying that it's proof of his truth Why because the initial impulse to crucify him was to prove that he was a false messiah That he was a false prophet as per deuteronomy That's why he was praying in the garden of gethsemane take this bitter cup of death away from me That's his proof of his truth is that he survived When anyone else would have died god saved his beloved one as per isiah 53 He prolonged his days. He saw his seed This is an actual fact the great miracle of jesus, which is the sign of jonah to a tea And the final point i want to emphasize is again this medical aspect. I want to emphasize this I think that's it. I think that's me. So i'm not going to go there. Let's wrap it up there for me. Um I hope that's okay james It is With that, thank you very much gentlemen for those rebuttals I want to say folks just a couple of quick housekeeping things. So if you haven't checked already Our guests are linked in the description box that includes if you listen to this via the podcast later Check out our guest links. We really do appreciate them. They are the lifeblood of the channel So check out their stuff and even if you're like, man, I totally disagree with them though There's a lot of value to reading your you can say opponent whatever way you want to say it Reading their content or listening to it firsthand to get a true understanding of it. So Check out our guest links as we really do appreciate them and with that we're going to jump into the five minute rebuttals Mike the floor is all yours Thank you james and thank you for that to hear I will remind you that I didn't have time to address everything you mentioned last time because we had time limits You mentioned I didn't address the hindu scriptures. So but I'm fully aware of these Benjamin walker in his book the hindu world argues that actually A lot of the hindu scriptures like the piranha texts were actually influenced by christian scriptures So citing them is not really an important argument or it's a good argument because these come much later They're influenced by christianity if there is any at all and so that could very well be where these are coming from These are not reliable texts about what happened in jesus. No scholar today thinks they are So again completely irrelevant because again the question is whether jesus died in jerusalem We need to look at the texts from jerusalem You mentioned about jairus's daughter being asleep jesus uses a saying language when he raises lazarus from the dead He says he's fallen asleep in uh john 11. His disciples say well go wake him up and he says lazarus is dead Saying that someone is asleep. It was a common way to say that somebody has died. You mentioned i'm doing post-hoc interpretation That is the swoon theory. That is exactly what this is. It's it's a long after idea And it just cherry picks the lines from jesus again jesus said directly matthew 17 mark nine Luke 18 jonah john 10 11 that he is going to die He says he is going to be killed Then he says he rose from the dead in luke 24 So again, you also bring up the sign of jonah again This is not survival jesus did not say the sign of jonah is about survival. This is reading way too much in it It's about the timeline feel be gone and that fits in with the cultural context Okay, again jesus said he will be killed in matthew 16 He said i was appealing to authority Appealing to authority is not a fallacy. It's a fallacy if i appeal to somebody That's not a scholar I appeal directly to new testament scholars. That is not fallacious. That is what every single scholar does You appeal to people who know what they're talking about who have the degrees who've written on this subject I could just say you're appealing to authority if you ever quote the akmadi founder again, okay You mentioned modern doctors sometimes get it wrong, but again Were those people that they declared dead scourged beaten hold on hung on a cross had severe losses of blood No, no, they were not you got to look at the specific evidence for jesus and medical doctors agree I cited several that say he died from traumatic shock Uh, you said that the bible could have been interpolated. Well, then how do you know? Which parts were interpolated and which parts weren't if you say the part to confirm your beliefs were not Oh, then that's just arguing in a circle. Okay, you cannot use the gospel of jon Like you have or the gospels to argue your position and then just dismiss all the parts you say were interpolated You mentioned jesus crying. My god. My god. Why is that for sake of me on the cross? But he's quoting psalm 22 which is actually a sum of victory craig keener says that jesus out of this the complaint of righteousness psalm 22 verse 1 might well suggest early christians that he participated in humanity's ultimate alienation from god and experiencing the pain death Although christians are not likely to have invented such a cry They undoubtedly found great significance in the use of the psalm He goes on to point out that This does not imply that he felt that he was forsaken. It implies a feeling of forsaken. Okay, but the psalm He's actually citing is actually a psalm of triumph being brought through and winning it ultimately in it's like advice told you Okay, i'm going to go to the place. That's the best Okay, i'm not telling you i'm going to the best restaurant and that's actually a line from a song called spirit in the sky About going to heaven So you got to take the song lyric in context with the song and likewise you take jesus's quote of psalm 22 in context of the whole song You mentioned ax 21 that paul was in james or somehow in disagreement No, verse 25 shows that paul and james are on the same page Notice what he says that james says to paul he says We we've been told that you've been telling jews who are among the gentiles to forsake moses Paul never said that read first krithian seven He says if you're of the circumcised stay among the circumcised if you're of the uncircumcised stay there Then so then james gets down to verse 25 and he says as for the gentiles We've sent them a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood And what has been strangled and from sexual immorality the same conclusion They came to an ax 15 when they agreed gentiles do not have to become jews to become christians And even if they did disagree that's not evidence that somehow james thought that Jesus Survived the crucifixion. They're clearly talking about something else Oh, you also mentioned this humane style reasoning that you see him alive You just should conclude regardless of what even jesus said that he survived. Well, I mean, that's the case We're just gonna this is just getting at hot We're dismissing all the evidence all the evidence to just sort of confirm even jesus himself Cannot say what actually happened. He's wrong and ochmandy founder centuries later is the only guy that's right This is getting incredibly at hot We're just dismissing way all the evidence if it doesn't fit the bill With that my time's up and i'll turn it over to here Uh, but thank you and i'm looking forward to the open dialogue Thanks so much mike and we'll kick it over for our last five minute rebuttal before that open dialogue If you haven't yet hit that like folks We are only 28 away from 400 right now. We appreciate that and with that thank you very much to hear the floor is all yours Uh, can you hear me? Okay? I kind of my audio was dropping. So I I tweaked a little bit. I hope it doesn't drop anymore You've got it. Okay. We're now let's start. Thanks very much So thank you again, michael for for three points So the first point I want to make just from the outset is that, you know, the amitya founder He was born 1835 died in 1908. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Who who claimed to be the true second coming of christ and to explain the actual reality of his life and death And that jesus died in in kashmir and he identified his tomb as well in his book jesus in india But he didn't say that this is a new idea He actually said that this is the original understanding of the christians and that in actual fact this was Resurrected in the sense this concept was demonstrated best by the quran and I and I showed you the verse Which clearly states in the quran that they did not kill him You know, I'm a qataluhu masalabuhu. Well, I can show me how to them Uh in chapter four of the quran they did not kill him Through the qataluhu means to kill with a sword or to kill but a sleigh Or masalabuhu nor did they kill him by crucifixion or crucify him to death in a sense and finish him through crucifixion Um, what uh, but he was made to appear to them. Well, I can show me how to him. He appeared to them as so Now that's clearly That's that's the ahmadi position and that's the original quranic position That's the original position of the prophet muhammad peace be upon him And we believe that the quran wasn't written by muhammad, but it was dictated to god Uh, dictated by god to muhammad who then recited his companions who wrote it down the sign of jona again I want to go back and just emphasize this point It's not the length of time if I go on a holiday for three days and three nights I haven't shown the sign. What is it that makes it a sign? You know, as I mentioned to you earlier um The sign of jona is mentioned, you know wicked and adulterous nation seeker the sign But no sure sign shall be shown to them except the sign of jona, right It's mentioned in luke 11 is mentioned in matthew 12 and is mentioned matthew 16 And only in one of those particular times is the length of time mentioned the sign I want to go back to this the sign is a person who should have died And was in a situation akin to death or very close to death and who is then survives And again, you cite the daughter of jairus and this time you take jesus's very clear words. She is not dead She is asleep What this shows is is that the people he in actual fact so-called resurrected Were never actually dead He healed them through prayer, but they were in a state close to death Same say this is exactly what jesus says. She is not dead She is she is asleep You just have to accept his words clearly as they're spoken and the proof that in actual fact, you know You'll say well, why do you take this as a literal thing? But you don't take when he says I will die and be raised on the third day is a literal thing And the reason is because the disciples didn't take it literally when jesus said to the disciple I'll be dead died and raised on the third day It says clearly in in at least two places in the gospels, but they did not understand what he meant Now if he had been going around resurrecting people from the dead, you know resurrecting daughter of jairus Lazarus etc Even at one point it says in the gospels that hundreds of came out of their graves and entered into the city, right? This is clearly a fable it's fabrication, but let's say it was true If this had been happening all day every day, then when he said well, I'm going to die as well And I'm going to come back from the dead it shouldn't have been that hard to understand Right, they'd seen examples of it in front of them But the gut the disciples understood that it wasn't to be taken literally, right? And that in actual fact is a demonstration as to why we don't either because we follow their lead on this because they best understood the message of jesus um Again the appeal to authority the people you're quoting are you know, they're they're they're they're christian scholars I agree, but you know, we have to understand that You know the best evidence that jesus didn't die is that he didn't die He was shown afterwards with his actual body and the only reason you entertain the resurrection hypothesis again I'm going to come back to this is that you believe that he was god, but you support the belief that he was god Um through belief that he rose from the dead So it's a completely circular argument If you just take the plain reading of a person who lived on this earth who was seeing post assassination attempt It's quite clear that he in actual fact If you see somebody offering assassination attempt alive with the wounds of their assassination attempt It means that they they survive the the ordeal Did jesus claim to be god? I've only got a minute. So I'll go quickly jesus claim to be god The answer is no the prophet muhammad peace be upon him also said I was the seal of the prophets before While adam was between the water and the and and the mud God also says in the Quran about the prophet Muhammad It was not it was not your hand to people to the obedience to but it was the hand of god It doesn't mean muhammad was actually god That means that they are the representative of god Eliyeli lama sabbaktani is used from an old asam which indicates triumph and I would ask you to to reflect on that Jesus was citing a psalm In which it was about triumph What did he expect? He expected triumph He expected his prayer to be answered that he made in the garden of gethsemane So I would put it back to you you need to read the context of Eliyeli lama sabbaktani and reflect on it That if he's quoting a psalm which is all about triumph Which is all about success and being saved Right and why is he's quoting that at the point of his moment of when he thinks that he's dying If it wasn't a type of a prayer that oh god, I believed you would grab me triumph, but I have not been driven it So thank you very much. That's my time Thank you very much for that final rebuttal. We're gonna go into the open dialogue folks Following that we're gonna have five minute closings and then qna So there are two ways that you can submit a question for the qna. We have a good list already So first is if you put a super chat question in that will get bumped to the top of the list Otherwise, you don't have to do a super chat. You can tag me with at modern day debate But as I said, we do put the super chats first and then we do eventually run out of time We've got to let the speakers go at some point So just keeping aware that we might not get to every single question That's a standard question with that gentlemen. The floor is all yours for open dialogue But here I have a question Can you hear me? Yeah Okay, um, do you believe jesus when he got out of the tomb he walked to his disciples Um, I would have to look into it. I'm not entirely sure I I I understand he was so yeah, sorry gone. I don't I didn't leave finish No, I'm just curious when he got out of the tomb did he walk Did he walk to the disciple was on sunday a few days after? Uh, no, I know that I know that there is this question. He said he appeared through walls that he suddenly appeared No, no, no, I wanted your beliefs. Do you believe that he walked that when he got out of the tomb He got up on his two feet and walked I don't know. I don't know the the gospel is, you know, at the end of the day We we we don't know the full details of what happened It's it's likely that he was still being administered in the tomb possibly by somebody visiting him regularly Um, it's likely that they helped him up. It's likely that they he appeared as first as a gardener to marry magdalene. I understand Um, so somebody had presumably given him those clothes and he'd he'd or he'd found them Um, so I don't know the details Is the is a symbol okay Okay, there there is no reason to think that he could walk for at least a month after he had two large nails shoved into his Feet in the Philippines they do crucifixion reenactments where they actually put nails in people and they can't walk When that happens and Frederick Zagabey in his book the crucifixion of jesus says that there's no reason to think he walked Why is it that the early church thought he resurrected if he was crawling around and looking like he just Basically was crucified Uh to the point of death. Why do they think he was resurrected in a glorified body if he was still covered in scars? Couldn't even walk would have had numerous malnutrition issues Where on earth would they get this idea from? Well, I I'm not an expert on the the events of what what happens during a crucifixion I do understand that it's not always the case that people have nails put through their feet Um, sometimes crucifixion occurred with a step on which people were arrested Their feet Um, and sometimes they were just put through their hands either way, you know I think again the kind of incredulity As to a person surviving a crucifixion attempt when people did survive crucifixion attempts, right with medical therapy Uh, as opposed to my incredulity that you know, believing that somebody rose from the dead It's they're well depart. I mean, it's it's if you have incredulity that Jesus could walk Shouldn't shouldn't you have greater incredulity that he came back from the dead Given that he was seen off towards with his wounds and required Uh eating he asked for bread and fish. So my questions you would be Sorry go on The debate is not did Jesus rise the debate is just Jesus die And I would say it's far more likely that Jesus died And something you get from like one of the more modern atheistic scholars like the hallucination slash mythic type Various theories they put out is gonna be far more likely than that he survived So even if You could make that a case it's still more far more likely you died given all the medical points I get I pointed out and again with regards to the nail going through his his cross the only archaeological evidence we have Is actually of a crucified victim in that same region named yohanan who has a nail going through his heel They use nails and there's no indication. Jesus will sort of uh given a special treatment possibility is not probability So so the reality is is there's no explicit evidence in it is a very good point You've made actually and thank you for raising this because I didn't I didn't reflect on this But there is actually no evidence when I when I look back through my reading of the gospels There's no mention actually of his feet whatsoever and even when he speaks to thomas He doesn't refer to his feet. He refers to his side and he refers to his hands um, and there's actually no mention of uh Of his feet actually being heard. So the answer is probably yes. He did walk because He we know that he was standing. We know that he was seen by as a guy dressed as a guest as a So presumably he must have been walking you just demonstrate to thankfully I appreciate this from your point, which is that actually he didn't have probably nails put through his feet at all Um, that happened to somebody else is frankly irrelevant. Um, that doesn't mean do you have any evidence that That he was sort of given this exception because again the cultural context shows that no nails would have been used in this No, the cultural context doesn't you're one incident that you can cite from a completely different incident Shows that but that doesn't actually prove anything The fact the matter is that he was walking off to it demonstrates you very aptly pointed out that you know Perhaps he did he wasn't crucified. It didn't have nails put through his feet or if he did I think it's again a push to say that a person couldn't walk Um, I think that there are instances where people do suffer and you have to remember these are flesh wounds They weren't wounds that actually broke the bones. They would actually be passed. Um, well It depends on where on the feet But if they were placed for example between the metatarsals bones It is possible that they fractured one or two bones, but people do walk actually with fractured Foot bones that does happen It's painful. Well, it's very painful. He was a young 30. He was a young 33 year old man Who'd fit and healthy all of his life So I wouldn't put it past him to actually walk especially with some aid from some other some other people So this is just begging the question you're saying because the gospel's reporting walk Therefore, he didn't have a nail in his feet so that he could walk. This is just being circular Again, if he actually had nails in his feet, he wouldn't be walking around as my main point with this And again, this is again pointing to my main point Basically is that if he had somehow survived, he would not have been walking around given what we know about crucifixion If your basic point is he was walking around so there wasn't nails in his feet This is just arguing in a circle Well, I think that the key point is that god, you know, you believe that god can resurrect the dead But he can't help jesus walk after having wounds and I think that that's That actually tells everybody quite nicely the the strange kind of Perspective you have where you where you assume an extreme position Because of your preconceived bias that he was an actual fact god and I want to ask you You know this key point I want to highlight is an actual fact the fact that jesus prayed the night before You know, my god, my god take this business out cup of death away from me We know in deuteronomy that he That according to deuteronomy a false prophet is hanged Right. Do you believe jesus was a false prophet because it says very clearly that jesus was a false prophet That the person who is hung is a false prophet according to deuteronomy Paul also reiterates this that he who was hung on the wood is a cursed of god Um, and we know clearly therefore that jesus this is why jesus didn't want to be hung on the cross So from the asylum perspective and from my understanding You know for him to have died on the cross therefore makes him a curse Do you understand what the connotations of being a cursed are and what it means? Well, so I'll answer the question but first let me just point out I'm not doing a reconstruction like you. I'm going on what the text actually says It says that he rose from the dead You're trying to find pieces you can cherry pick out to form a reconstruction about what happened And this is an inconsistent with him walking around as my main point with that With regards to him praying in the garden beforehand and then I'll get to the cursed thing again Jesus was experiencing the emotional distress Oftentimes that just simply happens from knowing you're about to go through immense pain We would expect this from anybody who's about to go through that that they're going to be lamenting and venting about What's going to happen to them that does not mean that he was somehow You know should have been happy about having to go through extreme torture with regards to paul and galatians Yes, he was a curse for us. That's literally what paul says. He was a curse for us by becoming sin This is all the Galatians 3 is about I mean this is not showing that he's a false prophet because jesus took upon all the sin upon himself and christian thought And then took it to the cross and died So yes, we do believe jesus was a curse. I don't see how that's a problem. That's that's literally christian dogma So so I mean this is getting away a little bit from the crucifixion whether he died or not But it is related and if you'll permit me james I would like to touch on this because we're now in the discussion phase So I feel like we could possibly open it out out a little bit Yeah, this is one of my major problems with from a theological perspective taking this wages from a history We've talked about the historical events of the crucifixion. I want to emphasize that You know, we don't differ on the events of the crucifixion. We differ on our interpretation of it So I that's clear between us. I think but I think this is my one of my biggest theological problems with the idea of a crucifixion Well, before we get to see a lot could you just show me the tell me the verse you're citing and do it around me that would show He's a false prophet Um, sure. Uh, let me just bring it up one second, please Um Yeah, so it's you draw me 21 22 to 23 What is a false prophet? Well, well, let me read it new living translation If someone is committed to crime worthy of death and is executed and hung on a tree The body body must not remain hanging from the tree of night You must bury the body same day for anyone who is hung is a cursed and incited god in this way. You're you're quite right I was actually confusing two separate No worries Quotes so another one from deuteronomy states that um that that if a person claims to receive revelation from god Um, if he is a false prophet that prophet must die must be killed Right and that will prove that he is uh in actual fact a false prophet and I can bring that out for you if you wish But you're absolutely right But this demonstrates that he was cursed in the in the sight of god and this is from a theological perspective This is what I find most difficult than actual factors because it demonstrates that there's no concept of forgiveness and christianity whatsoever And the reason is for that because if I if I wanted to forgive you if I you know We're taught in the lord's prayer by jesus. Oh lord, forgive us That you'll you'll know the words better than I will forgive me if I butcher this, you know All of I'll say it really fast, right? Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us Okay, not to temptation but deliver us from evil for that is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever Oh man, it's a beautiful prayer and it's a beautiful prayer. It's a very Islamic prayer I would say because um, but it's not christian prayer certainly not according to christian doctrines and I'll explain why so You know forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us Now, what is the nature of our forgiveness of other people? Do we have to punish another person? uh because Somebody has forgiven us if for example my brother um trespasses against me Do I have to what is the nature of my forgiveness the nature of my forgiveness is that punishment is waived That punishment is an actual fact we're waived and that's actually the sign of our love It's also a sign of my purity That uh, I can waive punishment and that is what forgiveness is If I take out that punishment on somebody else Or if he owes me a debt and I recoup that debt from someone else you cannot describe that as debt forgiveness That is seeking and obtaining the debt So with respect to jesus this is from a theological perspective now not so much historical This is my big problem with christianity Which is there has no forgiveness because everybody who rejects jesus is going to be punished eternally in hell for all of their sin So for a finite number of sins, they're going to be punished eternally, which isn't itself unjust But then all the christians who believe in jesus All of their sins have been punished have been have been put upon jesus So when you look at it in the grand total and scheme of things god has not actually forgiven a single Sin that anybody has ever committed and furthermore god actually becomes a hypocrite god forbid Because he tells us to forgive others. He says and he teaches us a prayer Oh god forgive us as you as we forgive those so we're actually more forgiving than god We can waive punishment but god can't waive punishment and that's actually a sign of him being unholy But for us it's a sign of our holiness So this in actual fact demonstrates that the entire crucifixion narrative Is is fundamentally tortured and backwards in the islamic narrative islamic understanding when you seek god's forgiveness God indeed forgives you as you forgive the trespassers of those against you He waives the punishment and he says it is waived it is it is written off. There is no debt god has ignored it God is the one of his attributes of allah is the effacer of sins He effaces them not by collecting punishment for them. So that's one point. I wanted to make and I just want to say on the question that occurs The idea that the idea that relationally And I want you to speak to this and explain this to me because I don't get it If somebody has done wrong to me right I cannot me taking out that punishment. Somebody else doesn't fix my relational problem with that person that person is still done wrong to me It doesn't become right By virtue of that by me taking out punishment on a third party And so not only is this fundamentally unjust to the arith of third party It doesn't actually solve the arid relational issue And jesus becoming a curse alayna, which is the word in arabic. It's also similar in hebrew It is the attribute of satan So in actual fact god in actual fact regarded jesus as satan for through no fault of his own But for the sins of others and it didn't actually fix god's relational problem with them and god didn't demonstrate any forgiveness It's it's a complete mess Okay, you've been gone for like four minutes. Can I respond about the same length of time as long as you wish I've got no problem. That's absolutely fine. Yeah Yeah, I want to let you I'm sure James might have a problem if it's as long as you wish, but I mean, you know within reason No, okay. There's a there's a lot of things I want to correct there For one thing we know we do not say the punishment for sin is eternal torment in in hell That's not in the bible. It says the wages of sin is death The way god punishes typically the main ways he punishes is physical death and exile. That's all hell is Hell is exile from god's presence. See my video does god send people to hell God is not punishing people for eternity for their sins in hell They have been exiled and as seeus louis said when it comes to the doctrine of hell is itself a question What are you asking god to do to wipe out past sins and give them a fresh start? He did on Calvary to forgive them. They don't want to be forgiven to leave them alone. That's what hell is There are only two kinds of people in the end those who say to god Thy will be done and those to whom god says thy will be done all that are in help choose it See us louis also says the doors of hell are locked from the inside again This is about exile. So that's one thing to keep in mind there And there's also that you mentioned it's eternal conscious torment. I'm actually an annihilationist. I don't think hell is eternal That seems to be more a lot of the It seems to be more in line with a lot of the early church fathers taught There's also universalists like origin for example So there's a lot more there in terms of christian eschatology and christian afterlife with regards to the atonement God is not punishing a third party because of the trinity. Jesus is gone. Jesus takes the punishment upon himself If you steal money from me, okay, and I forgive you of your debt The the debt is still there. I have just taken the debt upon myself now to pay You know, when you forgive someone it doesn't just go away of the sin If someone were to kill my family members, I take and I forgive them I have taken all that pain upon me to absorb and then to just sort of disperse it through my own Therapy, whatever you name it sin always comes with these types of shames these feelings of guilt When we forgive others that doesn't go away. We just start to absorb it God is taking the punishment upon himself. He's not putting it on a third party He is taking it for us and if anyone wants more I did a whole video on this back in august called the absurdity of christianity Where I explained that the atonement is the reflection of god taking the punishment that we have Taking the punishment of sin upon himself in a physical manifestation of that all that suffering all that hardship all that hurt of what sin does is taken upon the cross And it's a physical manifestation of what sin causes anytime Anytime somebody sins that doesn't just go away for forgiveness because the person who's doing the forgiveness is taking The the punishment upon themselves in terms of that feeling and it's best represented in terms of debt and money These kinds of things which our analogy is used in the new testament If you told took ten thousand dollars from me and I was going to use that money to buy food over the next year Okay, I now have to and I forgive you. I now have to suffer that lack of food over the next year It doesn't go away. There's still suffering involved even in terms of forgiveness What we don't realize as humans is when we forgive little things We recognize there's little suffering like when somebody just tells a white lie or maybe steals something minor But in terms of our debt to god that is a far bigger debt to be paid and there's a lot more suffering involved And so jesus shows this in terms of the whole system that he set up with the atonement Sin, you know, you have to it goes back to his how he this is typologically fulfilling jesus with how You need to do animal sacrifices in the old testament to atone for sins Jesus then eventually takes this full punishment the full weight of it upon himself who is god who did set up the system Jude one says it was jesus who led the people of israel evictus. This is whole his whole system So yes, jesus and in terms of the whole jesus claim to be god again I go back to what jesus directly says he calls himself lord lord That is in the septuagint that always refers to the tetragrammaton Jesus says that about himself and there are numerous other places jesus does this Thanks, james. Can I just respond to that before we go to questions if that's okay? Oh, we have plenty of time. Okay. Sorry. Yeah, great. Okay, it's fine. Um, so I think that this is really interesting so um, you know Forgiveness does not involve shame Okay, anybody who's genuinely forgives another It does not experience shame or guilt for forgiving In actual fact forgiveness anybody who's done it I'm sure you have michael and perhaps you can reflect upon your own experiences and the viewers can reflect upon theirs When you forgive somebody for a wrong done to you and it is sincere forgiveness Not lip service forgiveness, but sincere forgiveness. It never involves shame. It actually is a moment of joy It is a moment of joy that you have been able to Uh fully embrace the other person despite what they did to you There's not a hint of shame within it and there is not a hint of guilt within it And the best example of this I would I would refer you in actual fact to the story of the prodigal son This is jesus's understanding of forgiveness and I would ask you Where was the shame of the father when the prodigal son returned? Oh, I don't know I know exactly where it was where was it wasn't there There was the shame of the brother who he told you know That your brother has come back and we must embrace him. Okay, and we must be grateful that he has returned But the father didn't have if he had any shame It wasn't for the fact that he had to punish himself The father didn't go through internal punishment because his son came back It was a moment of joy. He laid on a feast for the man for the boy So in actual fact, this is the true aspect of forgiveness But you don't believe in forgiveness you believe that god has to punish that he either punished himself or he punished jesus And this is also a bit of a a bit of a misrepresentation not intentionally I don't want to accuse anybody of that i god forbid But I feel this a misrepresentation of jesus's position Jesus never claimed to be god you can say he claimed lord lord As I've mentioned to you in every scripture if you read any religious text The prophets of god always claim to be the messengers of god and the spokespeople of god and by virtue of their appointed position As the spokesman of god Abaying the messenger of god becomes obeying god. This is why the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him It is said in the Quran about him that um, you know, it is not you who took the oath of allegiance But it was not your hand on top of their hand, but it was the hand of god Nobody was god. Sorry. I can't hear you saying but if I can respond now I'll just finish real quick on this if I may, you know, the key point for me is that jesus never requested worship towards himself He always said to worship the father Um, he always said he nobody ever bowed down to him You know, there was a woman who bowed down to him Seeking his blessing, but nobody ever worshiped him as he and he never asked anybody to worship him He requested people Just just to also bring us more centrally to the topic But also if you're able to wrap this point up and then we'll can go over to mike Yeah, I'll absolutely wrap it up now And the last thing I'll say is that when jesus was it was put to him Does the final point I make when it was put to jesus that you claim to be god He said Why are you offended? I call myself the son of god when you are called Ye are gods in the old testament when he you know when they picked up the stones to stone him So he manifestly demonstrated his reference to himself as the son of god in the terminology of the bible in which even the children of Israel were called gods okay First of all, none of the early prophets ever called themselves lord lord and jesus definitely accepted worship if you go to luke 4 8 Jesus says you shall worship the lord your god and serve him alone Okay, that word for worship only shows up one of their places in luke's gospel and it's in luke 24 52 Where the disciples worship jesus Jesus definitely accepted the very worship. He said was only for god So you have there with regards to the prodigal son. Yes, the father did take shame upon himself If we understand the cultural context, it's very much in the story Okay, the prodigal son comes as father says i want my inheritance now At the only proper response in that culture would be to beat the son because that'd be very shameful The culture would know you were doing this he gives him the money anyway Then when the prodigal son returns home, the father runs to meet him in that culture The original heroes of that audience would have understood this as a very shameful act Men did not run women and children ran Men did not run and then he throws a feast for this son who Shamed his father in multiple ways taking his money ruining it and the father throws a feast for him The the community will look at this as a huge shameful thing This is the response from the elder brother To he leaves he goes out into his field of works because he's like, what are you doing? This looks horrible and look at what you're not you're not giving me a feast this kind of thing This very much will look very shameful to this surrounding culture This was very much in the cultural context of that time. It was a very much an honor shame culture So yeah, i'm not sure what you mean by bringing out the prodigal son story That very much has implements of honor and shame woven throughout the elder brother even shames his father by not coming to the party This is very much in that culture. This is all talked about in david disilva's book honor patron Honor patronage and kinship. I think that's the name of it James will you it was okay if i respond briefly to that I think we still got like 20 we said like 12 minutes or something. Oh, sorry. I didn't know how long we've got So what we're 10 30? What's the time we're going to finish the uh discussion? We will be going to a q&a from the people sending the questions after this Sure, that's fine. I've lost track of time my apologies. No problem We've got 12 more minutes of open dialogue and then we have five minute closings and then q&a from the audience Okay, wonderful. That's great. So I think you know the the key thing there is that the The I know as I agree we've got to get back to the topic of the crucifixion itself But you're taking other people's shame and saying it's the father's shame, okay Other people would have been felt shame on behalf of the father perhaps by saying my god He's really you know, he's not honoring himself. He's not showing his dignity, right? But that's their shame. Okay. The man is running down the street to meet his son. He's not experiencing shame He's experiencing joy You know, how is that in any way correlative to jesus suffering on the cross? I'm going to hell for three days and three nights and he was saying elie elie lama sabbaktani I don't think jesus can help my god. Okay. That's fine. So my god my god. Why has that forsaken me? and so this is an actual fact a Uh, this is a post-hock christian reading Of the prodigal son the plain reading again I will emphasize the plain readings of all of these things Which is that the prodigal son was met by a loving and joyful father. Okay other people may have had shame on his behalf But the father didn't have any shame whatsoever Um, and the point I want to get back to with the crucifixion narrative I would like to to address my kind of most central point Which is that the resurrection Is used as proof of jesus's divinity But jesus's divinity is supported by the resurrection And so the only reason you entertain the hypothesis that jesus in actual fact rose from the dead Instead of the plain reading of an event of a person post assassination attempt being seen with the wounds of his body and needing food Still right which is survival as he said in the sign of Jonah as he prayed for right The the post and as isiah 53 says he shall prolong his days. He shall see his seed The only reason you entertain that hypothesis Is in actual fact because you believe he's god in the first place, but you use the resurrection to prove that he's god So I want you to square that circle Explain to me why i'm wrong. I'm very happy. You know, I don't mind being wrong. I want you to explain to me Why is that a wrong reading of the situation? Okay, because i'm very confused with this because I've argued for one thing with the prodigal son I just want to say people can experience multiple motions. They can experience joy Of their son coming home and still the shame you were to get from absorbing that It's horrible sin. He did but with regard to answering your question here Um, I'm confused about the point because I directly argued Jesus as god because he said he was and then he demonstrated it through the resurrection I didn't argue in a circle. So I mean Jesus said he was god and then he did miracles to show that he was who he said he was That's not arguing in a circle Okay, that's fine. That's really interesting. So you you've mentioned luke 4a This is very clearly in all of the translations you could possibly hope to read It also worshiped the lord your god and serve only him if if the word worship is used in luke's gospel only Well, you haven't mentioned matthew mark No, no, no, let me let me clear from my point here. Let me clear from my point I understand your point I understand your point which is that in luke 4a the word worship is used and in the same gospel That word is only used again when it says the disciples worshiped him, right? I get that. That's fine okay, um the point I want to make is that You know, that's the word the word as you well know in Hebrew Hebrew has multiple meanings But if you look at what Jesus himself said it says it is written worship the lord your god And serve him only and there is no recorded event Where Jesus solicited worship from anyone and when he was put to him that you call yourself god They picked up stones to stone him and they said he said why which which my good deeds you stone me They said for none of your good deeds, but that you being man call yourself god So the question this is the question. This is the event we need to focus on What was Jesus's answer to them? It is directly put to him on pain of death by stoning Do you do you call yourself god or not? And what was his answer? Did he turn around and go? Yes? I am god I am god No, he said do you not read in your own scriptures that it is written that he are gods Do you then object to the one whom god has sanctified and purified If he calls himself the son of god So he says that in your books It is written that ye are even gods But you object to me calling myself the son of god So he didn't say that he is god What he explained is that I'm using the term son of god in the same way way and with the same language That it was used in the bible Previously for the children of israel that they were called the children of god So this is this is the nature So so when it was actually put to him directly instead of post hoc interpretations of jesus's words He explained his meanings very clearly Okay, jesus called himself the son of man He said that he said you will see the son of man coming on the clouds That's a direct reference as every scholar will note to daniel seven where the son of man shows up and receives worship In a kingdom forever. Yes, jesus did receive worship I gave you luke 24 at the end of the chapter his disciples worshiped him So very much. He is receiving this and then you're also quoting from the gospel of john where jesus says he's the one who resurrects people Before abraham was iam Thomas says to my lord and my god Every scholar accepts including bart ermann for example that jesus is definitely claiming to be god in this gospel So it's a very odd argument jesus is of course avoiding getting stoned But he often goes back and reiterates that he's got for example after this when he says is written You are called gods. He's quoting psalm 82 He then says do you say of him whom the father consecrated and sent into the world? You are blaspheming because I say I am the son of god If I am not doing the works of my father, then do not believe me if I am Do if I do do them even though you do not believe me believe the works that you may know and understand that the father Is in me and I am in the father again They sought to arrest him because but he escaped it from their hands. So again, jesus once again reiterates his divinity and Quality with the father there in terms of ontology. He's again saying once again But no, no, I am very unique. I have a special relationship with the father and I am in him He is in me this kind of language I I don't know where you're coming from on this because again you can find example after example of jesus doing this Where he's accepting worship claiming to be the son of man this guy who's receiving a kingdom in worship There's a lot of the examples like this So I I just want to clarify with you. Are you referring to luke 24 50 to 52? Yeah, that's where it's disciples worship him Okay, right now. This is also the event of the ascension. I presume you're referring to Yes, while he was speaking words of love and blessing He floated off the ground into the sky ascending into heaven before their very eyes and all they could do was worship him Overwhelmed and ecstatic with joy. They made their way back to Jerusalem. Is that the quote you're referring to? And they worshiped him in return to Jerusalem of great joy. Yeah verse 52 Are you not aware that this is not in the earliest editions of luke? Are you not aware that this is a are you not aware that this is a well-known Addition to the gospels what manuscript show it's an addition. Well, people can look it up themselves It's a well-known addition. There has never been a man. There's never been a manuscript found without this section the ascension of jesus is well known to have been added as a Later interpolation of the bible and it is not to be found in the earliest editions of the bible And this is this is a well-known fact So i'm quite surprised that you would use that and it's extraordinary that you have to you have Have reverted instead of showing an event during actual jesus's gospel ministry Where they worship him the question we really have to answer for us Is where in the gospel ministry did jesus ever Solicit what if he is literally the equal partner of the father we have to ask herself a simple question Why wasn't there at least 50 50 of them worshiping the father and worshiping jesus? Why weren't their instances recorded in the gospels where he's sitting on a chair and all the disciples are bowing down before him? Instead all we have is him leading them in worship him encouraging him to worship the father Him telling them worship the father when they come when a man comes to him says master master You know, um, how shall I good master? How shall I enter the kingdom heaven? He says Why you call me good? There's none good, but god now I know the christian interpretation of this which is that don't you realize that i'm god Therefore, I must be in actual fact the best But that's not what he says. It's quite evident if somebody calls you something and you say Hawaii how can you call me this when there is none who is like none the god who is like this? That's a that's defining yourself as different. So in all aspects Jesus was didn't claim to be worshiped and the key biggest thing I want to actually say about being god Is the fact that the old testament is chock full of statements that god does not die I mean, that's the big elephant in the room here, isn't it? There are multiple statements. Exodus 15 says god is a man You can you can quote paul all you want in acts, but that's a relevant. I said exodus I said exodus exodus 15 says god is a man of war That's that's that's fine But you want it but I doesn't have no relevance to what i'm actually saying It's very clearly stated in the bible in multiple multiple places and people can look it up for themselves That the old testament says that god does not die And I think that that's probably the elephant in the room You say that the proof of jesus being god is that one he said I am again. I'm not sure how that Is proof of anything when it was put to him. Are you god? He said he referred to him to the the language using the old Old testament and the last let me make is this the last point makes this before I let you jump in please You know, you talk about the son of man, you know We know he wasn't the son of man The son of man was a metaphorical reference. He wasn't the son of man. He was born of a virgin So in actual fact the son of god was also also a metaphor and in fact if you look at every single instance Where it is reported that he said I will die and be raised on the third day. He never says the son of god He says the son of man will be raised on the third day and that indicates that he didn't want people to misunderstand him That he was an actual fact prophesying that he was god. He was saying that I'm a man. I'm a human being Okay, with regards to your claim that it's a fact that luke was added to That's just nonsense. We've never found a manuscript a complete one that has luke in it that has that section missing It's always there. This is a reconstruction that some scholars have put forward which there is no evidence for Okay, jesus did call himself the son of man, matthew 8 20 matthew 9 6 matthew 10 23 matthew 11 19 he says Directly that he is the son of man multiple times in matthew 16 He affirms that he is the christ and we know this is a reference again to that same divine figure That is also called the son of man. So over and over again Jesus confirms again that he is the son of man. I'm not sure where you're getting this from and again All of this is irrelevant to the main topic because even if all of this is wrong Jesus still died on the cross as just a human as every single scholar today basically accepts So even if all this is wrong and jesus didn't rise from the dead Jesus didn't actually claim to be god. It doesn't matter. He's still down on the cross. The evidence overwhelmingly confirms that That's why even atheist scholars today confirm that beger lutamon says it's Indisputable. So even if all of this stuff is you're right about doesn't matter because I could cite atheist scholars It would probably agree with you on the on the luke issue, but they would still say jesus died on the cross So i'm not sure how this helps support your point at all So the son of man, uh, just want to check you. Are you finished to the point? Yeah So i'm not saying at all that he didn't call himself the son of man I fully agree. He did call himself the son of man. What i'm saying is he was born on the virgin So he wasn't the son of a man, but that's not what that means That's a specific phrase. That's a specific title We find in daniel seven a figure coming who like one of a son of man who's given a kingdom in divine power And worship forever. It's a specific reference to daniel seven. It's not a literal title Lydia's a son of a man So it's extraordinary that son of man is always metaphorical but son of god is literal Whereas that's completely inconsistent position. No son of god is also son of god is a Metaphorical title for messiah in most cases right? So there is no therefore evidence that he was an actual fact god because he himself gave you evidence No, you didn't you said he said i am that's not evidence of anything I gave you matthew 715. I gave you the references about worship. I gave you john a I could say mark one So the references of worship are weak as i pointed out The you have one word which you then ascribe as evidence after in a passage Which is extraordinarily dubious and which has been touted by scholars a clear example of interpolation and loop But that's beside the point. I want to get back to the main point here, which is about the crucifixion And the main point I want to emphasize is is two things. So the lord's prayer, you know, again I want to kind of mention this as well, which is that Forgive us those figure as trespasses those who forgive against us You know as though as we forgive those who trespass against us That's not the nature of what's happening in this particular incident What's happening in this particular incident is a man being tortured to death That is not what happens when you forgive somebody. You don't feel like you're being tortured to death And the prodigal son story demonstrates that very aptly actually The father's full of joy other people have shame and issue with it, but he doesn't The the second point I want to make and come back to is again this kind of Point which is that the only reason you entertain The hypothesis of resurrection is because you believe in his divinity a priori But if you take that out of the equation, can you can I put it to you? Can I ask you this question? If we're talking about a bloke called Jim Who you see on the street after and hanging who has the marks of hanging on him Would you entertain resurrection as a hypothesis for him? Right when he has or would you think oh, this guy has an actual fact survives? I put it to you if he said I'll give you a chance to respond to his question And I just want to let you know we have to once Mike does finish We got to go to the q&a is we're actually just slightly over the open dialogue time Okay. Yeah, I would remind people that we're on the whole atoman issue. Check out my video the absurdity of christianity You can also read works by scholars like NT Wright and William Lane Craig on penal substitution and how this all plays out So there's scholarly works on that which are irrelevant to the debate If some guy named Jim said he died and rose from the dead and I saw his dead body Yes, I would entertain that as a possibility because like you I believe in God and I believe miracles are possible That doesn't mean I would fully believe it. There'd be other evidences And there's other evidence we use for the resurrection like the disciples willing to be persecuted and suffer their immediate proclamation in Jerusalem The fact that they wouldn't invent things like the women discovering a tomb and other things as well So yes, I would entertain that that doesn't mean for Jim I would believe he resurrected because I have to look at the specific evidence for that case And when it comes to Jesus, it's far more likely that he rose from the dead than that he survived the crucifixion But all that's irrelevant to the main point at the end of the day the evidence still demonstrates Jesus died Regardless of what happened after regardless of what he claimed about himself if he did claim He was God or not the even atheist scholars accept that and some of them don't think he did all those other things So keep that in mind. It's irrelevant to the main point. They may not have seen this debate though. They may change that view I have to jump into the closing statement So we're going to give each of our guests five minutes for their concluding statement to draw together the threads from this debate So we'll start with as we started earlier with mike And then we'll go to to hear for the final word in his five minute closing statement as well. Mike. The floor is all yours Well, yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate the debate. I thought I went well Uh, again, I'm not convinced at all that the swimming theory is the most likely explanation Especially after this debate the medical evidence from uh, medical experts who've actually examined the gospel who worked on dead bodies We'll say yes, Jesus died new testament scholars say this the the overwhelming consensus Is that jesus died on the cross and my opponent says that maybe i'm uh, you know, uh, Assuming a priori that jesus didn't that jesus was god or that jesus resurrected I can say the same thing to him. He only assumes the swoon theory because it's what the aqua d founder There's a gullamachman taught So I how do we not know that's not him. It's just his bias. He's coming with this a priority He's got to defend it and force the evidence to fit And unfortunately we see that he'll quote half of luke 24 but ignore the very verses right after that He'll quote the verses where luke where luke says jesus was eating a fish But ignore the verses right after that where jesus says he rose from the dead He'll quote acts 21 but ignore where james says he agrees with paul about gentiles He'll verse 25 of those kind of issues. So again, what does the actual evidence show? Okay, unless we the If we cherry pick the gospels you can make it fit the swoon theory but We can't do that. We got to go on what the actual first sensory evidence actually Tells us he cited the koran numerous times. That's just a not a reliable source and even if he is right The scholar khalil andani who's a is mali scholar has argued that the koran actually teaches jesus down the cross from places like Surah three So i'm not at all convinced that that's even the proper way to interpret I think khalil andani actually gives it a very good interpretation of this And so I would probably feel more likely to think that again regarding back to um Uh, let's see here the sign of jonah issue again once again That it this does not say I will be alive like jonah and I don't even think jonah did live It says that he will be gone for the same period of time Just as jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days So shall the son of man be in the heart of the earth for three days That is the comparison right there. It is not just as jonah survived I'll survive too the comparison is always to the demo teeth So you got to keep that in mind At the end of the day the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates jesus died on the cross When the spear went into his side forever juga v says this is not evidence that jesus was alive Blood and water coming out would be a natural result from a dead body someone who suffered severe beatings Traumatic shock and the blood would not be able to clot So we should expect this again early church fathers agreed that this this wouldn't happen naturally But modern medical experts say that no this is basically what happened The overwhelming evidence confirms over and over again that jesus died We didn't get much into this in the open discussion, which I was a little disappointed about I wanted to talk more about the medical research We ended up talking more about theology, which is fine. But again There's no debate when it comes to the medical research here on what actually the gospels record and what jesus says about himself He says he died Achmedes want to claim that jesus said he would not die, but they will ignore quote after quote from jesus Matthew 17 They they were gathering in galley. Jesus said to them the son of man is about to be delivered into the hands of men And they will kill him John 10 11. I am the good shepherd the good shepherds lays down his life Luke 18 31 they will kill him Okay, you go again to Matthew 16 Peter says no lord that'll never happen even what does jesus say get behind me saying according to jesus According to jesus himself if you believe he was not supposed to die. That's a satanic idea So when muslims claim that jesus didn't die christians immediately think of that passage So you got to keep that in mind as well and again, this doesn't make sense from an historical standpoint You're telling me that jesus said he died and rose his followers said he died and rose all their first century sources say he died and rose then centuries later Someone comes along and says no no he actually survived That that is the definition of post-hoc reasoning. I'm either being accused of post-hoc reasoning That's the very definition of it. There's no evidence of this and again the akhmini founder physical akhmini was heavily critiqued By actual scholars in in this field again to name a few here per beskov strange tales about jesus gunter brunbold jesus in india His a lot of his ideas about that tomb not supported by the data not taken serious by archaeologists jesus died in jerusalem and if his followers saw him walking around Then he rose from the dead It would take nothing short of a miracle and no one reported that he was miraculously survived So i'm going on what the text actually say But my opponent unfortunately is cherry picking lines out of the gospels that fit the conclusion he wants And then reading that back into the first century But not going what the text say one of us is following the text one of us is saying well the founder of my movement said this I got to make the data fit it. Let me find pieces in cherry pick So unfortunately, I do appreciate to hear. I think this was a great conversation. I don't mean any ill will I appreciate the back and forth. I think you're a really nice person and I appreciate that time We'll get over to here for his five minute closing as well And then folks as I mentioned we'll have the q&a immediately after if you happen to have a question You can still submit although I gotta tell you we had to hear what time is it there where you are? Oh, don't worry. I'm a late sleeper man Okay, good because we've got a good amount of questions already folks But if you want to submit you can submit more and with that we're going to kick it over to to hear for his five minute closing as well So again, Michael, I fully agree with you. No hard feelings whatsoever. I'm feel like I've really enjoyed this conversation with you And I really thank you for engaging with me um And with the truest arm uk channel, which is the channel I'm representing Um, so please go away everybody and have a look at that truest arm uk Um, so first of all there's no akhmedi bias here You will notice that I didn't actually once quote anything from the writings of the founder of the akhmedi muslin community And I did not draw any arguments from the quran in actual fact What I did was I demonstrated that the quranic narrative Fitted an existing narrative that an actual fact is found clearly in the events of the gospels So I never based any of my arguments to be absolutely clear on the quran or on hasim ariz al-ghalam ahmed The founder of the akhmedi muslin community or on any statements of the prok Muhammad psp upon him either He has statements which also support the spoon theory So I don't have bias on the contrary I would say in actual fact that it's you who unfortunately has the bias because they can't actually be evidence for resurrection Okay, there can never be evidence for resurrection because nobody is able to Perceive into the next life to see that somebody has died and then come back to death come back to life All there can be is evidence for a person um Appearing to die and then walking around afterwards and that in and of itself does not prove resurrection because as I've demonstrated And as I've gone through that in actual fact supports The idea of a person surviving much more strongly because you and I both know that if you see somebody post hanging With the necessities of his human body That's quite evidently the greatest proof that the person in actual fact survived And the only reason you would go to a resurrection hypothesis is because you have a religious bias You see you're looking at the gospels as a christian as a person who believes the divinity of christ I'm looking at the gospels as a historical text where words have been known to have been changed over time Where words have been been inserted where there was a contradiction in the early followers between paul and james When james confronted paul and said why are you teaching the jews all places? Not to follow the the law of moses and where he publicly repented and you have to ask yourself the question If he hadn't done anything wrong if there was no disagreement between james and paul Why is it that paul then publicly repented shaved his head and stayed in the temple for three days? And why were the jews from asia who had believed in jesus so upset that they mobbed him and nearly killed him Requiring the romans to in actual fact step in and save his life So this all completely goes against your idea and your your theory that this was a settled narrative early in the christian Doctrine and i want to emphasize this point that we believe that the survival of jesus from the death on the cross in Fulfillment of his prayer in the garden of gethsemane is the greatest sign of his truth That when paul says that 500 people saw him afterwards That's why his mission took off because people had tried to kill him to prove that he was accursed And god saved him and they had the same interpretation of the post crucifixion appearance of jesus as i have Which is that he had survived and therefore he was not accursed of god Therefore he was god's messenger. Therefore god. They should actually listen to him Paul in actual fact and i refer you to the book paul and the Pharisee conspiracy against jesus Paul in actual fact was a hypocrite within jesus's movement who sought to distort jesus's actual message So as to make it unpalatable for jews to accept by making out like jesus was an actual fact An idolatrous figure within christianity when actually jesus was the leader of the ebionites the early jewish christian movement so As for the medical research i'll finish on this particular point I'm not going to label the point that i'm an intensive care doctor because there are intensive care doctors who are more Senior than me who are christian but they're not here and i'm i'm here debating So i'm going to give my viewpoint on this particular matter and that is this that to give medical research evidence That a person died and came back to life is absurd okay If blood in and water even if you accept the first first two points about the blood and water firstly Blood cannot separate from water. Okay in coagulation I know you haven't particularly made this point, but people do they say it's plasma If it becomes plasma then the blood can't come out because it's coagulated and this certainly wouldn't come out under pressure And you say that it doesn't say that it came out rapidly it says that it just came out That's not what it says youth. This means Straightaway rapidly forthwith. This is the original greek word and it indicates a beating heart And so we have at the moment at the very moment of checking whether he is dead We have a beating heart in evidence and the person witnessed it writes This is a true testimony. And this is what I witnessed with my own two eyes So I want to end on this particular note I would refer all the listeners to two books in particular Called one deliverance from the cross by Muhammad Zafrullah Khan It's a free as a pdf online and jesus in india Which goes through the evidence in a much more thorough and detailed fashion than I can hear on this evening here this evening Thank you very much michael. Thank you very much james for um for entertaining us today I say say thank you for the debate. I'll be live on my channel to review it tomorrow Hope everyone who is watching will watch that as well You got it and our guests are linked in the description. What are you waiting for? You can click on their links right now You apparently enjoy listening to them so you can listen more like clicking on their links below First question coming in from issa kavir says kum, let me know if i'm pronouncing this right kum hais ho or do t They say always great to see you ip This one from kyle says thank you question for True islam the Quran says to believe in jesus as a prophet and his book the bible So why would you and your entire religion disregard jesus's own words with him stating his own death? Uh, so that's a great question. So that's uh, the faulty premise there. So the Quran doesn't say that, um, jesus was It says that we must but so the principle in islam is that we believe that god has sent messengers to every nation on earth It says in the front that there is no nation to whom a messenger has been has not been sent To him a warner has not been sent So we believe the australian aborigines and native americans the english the french everybody has had a messenger from god Over time they get mythologized and they turn into witches and wizards and the rest of it, right? Now as for jesus peace beyond him We believe that he what we are what we are bound to accept Is not the current version of his statements and his revelations, right? We take it as a historical document That's how we see the bible and we believe it has contains true prophecies It contains true words that jesus did say but it also contains a lot of interpolations And so what we're admonished to accept according to the Quran is the principle that jesus received revelations And that those revelations which are mentioned also in the Quran is the injil that we are to accept them but in terms of uh The gospel narrative or the the narrative of the gospel writers that they put upon the events of the crucifixion That doesn't mean that we have to accept them And now you you point out what jesus actually said that he you know He said claimed to have said that he will die and raise him on the third day The fundamental tension between myself and michael i guess is is a question It hinges upon this very claim and i think michael will probably agree on that as well that whether jesus claimed to that he would Um, how should we understand the two different things one? There's a sign of jonah He says my sign will be the sign of jonah, which i've explained is not related to the time thing Because at least in two of the three references time isn't even mentioned and secondly Me going on holiday for two for three days and three nights doesn't mean i've shown the sign of jonah The sign of jonah is survival against all odds Okay, that's what everybody at the time of jesus would have understood the sign of jonah to refer to that's what makes it a sign That god demonstrated his attributes of magnificence by saving a person in the midst of the storm So that's on the one hand death cannot be the sign there Okay, it has to be survival And so when he said therefore i'll die and rise on the third day, which the disciples didn't understand I take that to me a metaphorical statement if it was made by jesus of which i have doubts, but Let's take it today. It was actually made by jesus I take that to be a metaphorical statement the same way that jonah himself said that i called to the god In the from the place of the dead to be raised from the dead means to me It needs to be raised in the place of the dead as he himself explained to the daughter of jairus Which is that she is not dead. She's only asleep. He was in a coma-like state and then he uh was brought back But he was never clinically dead Got it. We've got a number of questions. So i've got a let's see. I should have said this earlier is my fault is that we've got a That one was an incisive one. So i want to give you plenty of time on that one We just have to maybe move quicker through some of these though. We'll do my best Totally okay. Apollo's christian apologetics as jon 1934 means immediately after in order Not speed Unconjugated root is Uh greek word that nobody would understand which means straight according to lsj slash strong's Not once in all coine greek literature. Does it translate? fast or as fast you can't read gk yet smashed Yeah, I mean the word basically means just come out of it does not mean to come out faster in a certain way Like when you look in the movie the passion of christ and you see the blood and water spraying out of that Did not happen. That's just that's not what jon says that'd be very unlikely According to the medical research the vorges means to come out of it's using matthew 526 Matthew 2 6 just you know four out of judo shall come the ruler as basically what it's saying It does not refer to any type of speed or anything So it does not say the blood and water was gushing out of him like a river It most likely would have happened when the spear went in some came out and then that would have been basically been it It was it's you can see this on frezrik juggerbees book. He talks about this in detail Uh, can I just yeah, can I speak to that? Does that's right? Yeah. Yes. So, um, thank you for that question If you look at strong's definition, it's very clear it says so outline of big biblical usage Um, this is on blue letter bible. I'm not making this up myself You can go on blue letter bible go to the word go click on youthy's g2117 is strong's word It says straight level straight forward upright truce and sear straight away immediately fourth width Right, and then in strong's definition. He says you through literally level or figuratively true adverbially of time at once A non by and by fourth width immediately straight away So if you cut if it says straight away or fourth width or immediately they came out blood and water The meaning of that is quite clear that he had a beating heart because I don't know, you know How many dead bodies you guys have interacted with I'm not sure but even when you take a vial of blood Right from a patient if you do not do this with it and keep it moving All right, that blood coagulates within a minute Okay, so the idea that a person within who is dead possibly for five minutes 10 minutes 15 minutes 20 minutes That his blood should come out straight away Right or rapidly under force under a degree of pressure Which is what is indicated by that word because things wouldn't come out straight away Who would trickle out if they cut him on the side and he was dead and that indicates to me at least that indicates that he was Uh, he was he was alive see the crucifixion of jesus forensic inquiry by frederick zagabee He deals with all this and shows no that's not easy. Is he a passionate christian? I don't know. I just I've read the parts of the book. I think he's a christian. Yeah, but that that doesn't matter. He's still a medical expert This one coming in from dash is the islamic belief that a la only made it look like jesus was crucified and then waited 600 years to reveal What actually happened doesn't make sense to me So that's a really great question. I really like that question. Um Uh, no, that's not true. So we believe that at the time of jesus jesus was believed to have Uh survived that he was widely accepted because he has survived because people we know this guy's not a curse to god We tried to kill him to prove him being a curse. He survived and therefore he is an actual fact from god Um, and then when he left rapidly and he migrated as all prophets do and often prophets do rather And he migrated to the east where he turns up in hindu literatures And i've mentioned that that he's mentioned in hindu literature after 78 80 years the virgin Son of god who born of a virgin who names himself jesus the messiah So that's something for christians really to try and explain away the What happened is is he developed the ebionites with the with a group of jesus's followers in judia And paul created a breakaway group which became the church But the ebionite split from paul and with his arrest and with his statements, especially in the courts Of herald and then in rome it became evident that paul was following a completely different teaching to jesus paul's movement It wasn't really christianity in the true sense of jesus's original teaching Spread in the in the west whereas jesus's original message the ebionite following spread in the east in asia Forward pretty soon here Yeah, the ebionites did not actually they were not what people that they denied that jesus was the christ They thought the christ was a heavenly figure that descended upon him They also thought they all could become christ most of them denied the virgin birth And they do not date to the early church. They come after the 70 80 destruction The earliest you date him is early first century But their movement didn't start springing up until after the apostles are basically passed on So now the earliest church is what we see in paul's letters and in the gospels So I gotta move forward. I can give you the last word on this one. Hold on a second I can give you the last word on this one to hear It's just that I do also want to keep it on the actual question Is that we're eventually we're gonna have to stop giving you guys for buttles because you just have so many questions And there's a lot to unpack for each one So go ahead to here We'll give you the last word on this one because this is just going back to youthies of the just I just realized something completely silly of me youthies the the thing the blood coming out is about a previous question Not this question the youthies coming out, you know, blood and water came out the word youthies actually means straight or level That's the first application of the word for blood and water to come out straight or level from the person's body means it was under pressure That's the original meaning of the word. It's not simply So that's a great proof that it was under pressure Because it was straight or level that it came out from his body That in actual photo shows that it was came out forcefully under pressure under a beating heart That's a fantastic proof from the original word of the word meaning the word youthies Gotta move the next one Austin says when the Quran says the jews killed him not could this Could this just mean Allah killed him and so the jews shouldn't boast like in surah 8 17 No, so it says clearly in the verse of the pran it says It's recounting some of the the wrong things that the jews had done for which god was displeased with them Um, and and it says and for their saying we did kill the messiah's son of Mary the messenger of god So they're using the word messenger of god ironically, they're like, oh, yeah, we killed this messenger of god Right, so it's not that god killed him because god then immediately Denounces that view it says whereas they did not kill him nor did they kill him through crucifixion But he only appeared to them as one like that So or he was made to appear to them as one so so god is very clear they claimed to kill him They didn't kill him. He appeared to them as though he was dead That's exactly what i'm saying here today This one coming in from joshia wooden says the topic is did jesus die by crucifixion redirecting to resurrection? Yes miracles are not common your quote was to the jews who know psalm 22 I'm sorry. I mean real That's what I would say. I mean this it's not the debate is not over the resurrection. It's not if jesus died It's far more likely jesus died and did not rise and that jesus even survived I think it's I think jesus died and rose from that I think that's the most likely explanation given all the data But given just the evidence of the crucifixion if we just look at the evidence of the crucifixion jesus died If they saw him walk around after then he resurrected that's a big if that's another debate in terms of this debate Yes, jesus did die. That's what the evidence suggests So coming on do appreciate your question joshia wooden says jesus is messiah in the quran You said he was false messiah sounds like shirk and what say you about some muslims say that he did die octum's razor So I never said he was I never said he was a false messiah absolutely not the term massif Means the anointed one it also indicates the one who travels a lot actually in the original word Which also indicates jesus's tree say jesus was not a false messiah jesus was the true messiah of the jewish people as per muslim belief And the must we believe that the muslim messiah has also come who was the founder of the ahmadi muslim community mirza ghulam ahmadi You got it this one coming in from do appreciate it libel says To true islam You don't believe jesus was crucified and resurrected, but you believe in your prophet having flown on a donkey to jerusalem They say I don't understand Yeah, it was a magical donkey So we don't we don't believe that uh, it happened It was a literal event It was a vision that he had and if he flew to heaven And it was a vision that he had where he entered through heaven and the best proof of this is the fact But the quran recounting this in the surah called surah tan najam It states that the heart of the prophet did not lie in what it saw it doesn't say his eyes did not lie And in the full of hadith the full statement of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him when he Recounts the entire thing the last words of that hadith were and then he woke up Right. So the entire vision that he had where he entered into heaven was not a literal event. He was sleeping It was a it was a it was a spiritual experience This one coming in and do want to remind you folks If you happen to put in a super chat that's substantive We'll of course read it if you put in a super chat That's just like an insult or just something that says like oh, this is just a myth on either side We're not looking for those for the q&a king Josiah of Judah says does the bible contradict Contradict itself when it says god doesn't lie in numbers 23 19 yet he sends a lie In caps spirit in first kings 22 23 and boast about it getting prophets to lie in Ezekiel 14 9 and then sends lies to unbelievers in 2nd Thessalonians 2 10 through 11 So, yeah, I've addressed this in the past one thing we need to remember at the old testament is oftentimes active verbal forms Are used even for passive responses We see this in exodus 5 where pharaoh puts upon heavy burdens upon the israelites and moses says, why did you do this god? Well, no, he just let pharaoh do it sometimes god lets Certain spirits come in and do things like in first Thessalonians. It says about a powerful delusion coming This is just god letting it happen So in the biblical context sometimes active verbal forms just represent passive responses So we need to keep that in mind It talks about pharaoh hardening his own heart, but also god hardening pharaoh's heart But that you know active forms for passive responses. So just keep that in mind I thought there was a lot of various things on that You got it. Are you guys able to hear my fan? I hear in my That's great. Okay. You don't have any fans james. Yeah, I know I was going to say your fans the screaming ones in the background It's so hot in here wearing this suit that I uh, I turned my fan on this one graze 174 says How can the divine savior even be crucified given that his physical body was an illusion? Did I just read that? So that sounds like a gnostic idea the idea that or a dosetist idea the idea that he didn't have a real body Those were the first people to them to deny the crucifixion And believing in substitution theory or something like it But that was that just sounds like a gnostic idea. Jesus had a physical body He came in the flesh all the early sources support this gnostic text date to the second century or later And they're denying the crucifixion for theological reasons namely that they didn't think Jesus could suffer So they put people someone like Judas on the cross or Simon the serene that kind of stuff Can I come on that just two seconds short? I think one of the main problems they have is the idea of a person being a cursed who is a beloved of god To be cursed as I've mentioned before is naturally to satan satan was cursed because he was put out of the love of god and that is what it means to be cursed It is the opposite of being brought close to god And so your belief that Jesus natural fact was a curse of god that he was cursed and put away from the father Is um is is is is contrary to the for our view, which is that Jesus was a beloved of god And he prayed to god and saw his help It's also actually very contradictory to your own view Which is that Jesus was god because how can you become distant from your own self? If Jesus was god and he was one of the father, how did he become a curse from the father? But he was they won't Well, we believe adam and e4 curse for examples We believe humanity was cursed genesis 3 says they were cursed Jesus relations 3 said Jesus became that curse for us By taking on human flesh and in paying the penalty so he became part of humanity at that point So that's how he becomes a curse by becoming part of humanity and then taking that curse upon himself So he just so this is what I don't understand. You know, I can't wrap my head around it So the g the god part of jesus was not Cursed the human part of jesus was cursed. That's not even this is this is far more complicated This is a whole another debate you can read books like william lung craig on penal substitution or books by nt If you write if you want more on that, uh, but this is the single point is the single point I would be respectful of james and his time, you know, because he's got a lot of questions That's fine. The simple point for me is that it's a pure contradiction Like actually would I would prefer with the not not sticks view if they had to choose between Crucifying him to death not crucifying I prefer not crucifying because it condemns a a righteous man to a curse of god When he is apparently also got simultaneously This one coming in from ghost to 409 says true islam uk jesus says quote my god my god He refers to psalms 22 if you read then psalm 22 16 through 18 you can see jesus refers to it Cause it points to him because it points to him The my father quote unquote prayer refutes islam Hey, james real quick. I'll be back in like 10 seconds. You got it Is that for me? I guess that's questions for me, isn't it? I since it. Yes. I think so I mean, I always find it extraordinary that you have to read into the context and read in which psalm it's from Etc when you but you don't even read the actual words and what they simply say He says my father my father my my my god my god. Why is that forsaken me? Right, why don't you just read the plain reading of it? Which is that he believes that he was going to be saved And therefore and and yet he feels that he's dying And he thinks therefore the god has forsaken him and the question Obviously again needs to be begged which is that if he is actually god How can he be forsaken by god? Can I say oh tahrir tahrir? You're forsaking me when I am tahrir This makes no sense So this is why the the rational mind has an insurmountable problem in saying 1 is 3 and 3 is 1 and the crucifixion is a moment To which all this comes together and and and problem because compounded upon problem with statements of jesus This will come in problem. We're trinitarians not modals by the way matters now says i'm not convinced after the rebuttals Looking forward to the open discussion. I am hosting an after show to discuss great debate osean They don't say what's either uh unconvinced on the uh, so it might be that uh, it's a teaser. So thinking monkey says No winners or losers just a nice respectful debate. Thanks for that thinking monkey. You all credit to our guests linked below Vector says ala doesn't forgive sahi muslim six six six five Abu masa reported that ala's messenger said When it will be the day of resurrection ala would deliver to every muslim a jew or a christian and say That is your rescue from hellfire Oh, yes, that is in sahi muslim. Yeah, it talks about um That uh, yeah jews and christians are punished so muslim like the heat the mat the muslims that have Mountains of sin that's put on the jews and christians. So we end up being So it is a the tonement theory and if you take the sahi muslim, for example, yeah, there is a tonement in there for sure It's just jews and christians pay for the sense of muslims Uh, if i may yep absolute false Firstly a hadith can never be used to establish a qida, which is belief only the quran can And the quran very clearly states that on that day no ransom shall be accepted from any soul Nor shall any intercession be given for it nor shall any Any bar to be taken for it the quran is absolutely clear that every person pays For their own sins and lives for their own sins this statement of sahi muslim that muslim would be given a jew or a christian Means that by virtue of the intercession of a jew or a christian or the prayers of a muslim Certain jews and christians whom god wishes to forgive Will forgive them through the prayers and the supplications of that particular individual has nothing to do whatsoever with Sins being transferred the quran is absolutely clear that sins cannot be transferred And the final point i make is that you should look at sort of bakr, which is the second chapter of the quran again You have to look at the quran for the beliefs not the hadith And it says very clearly that jews and christians and those who believe in Allah the one god and the last day And those who do good deeds on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve So the quran is very clear that if you are a jew or christian And you reject the notion of trinity or you reject the notion of other concepts And you adhere to the oneness of god and you believe in the day of accountability And you do good deeds for the sake of god you have the possibility of paradise Um because that in actual fact are the bases of islam This one coming in from joshua wooden says akhams razor applies here 2000 years of christianity blessing the world versus 1400 years of suffering in islam the pattern of conduct is the root not jewish people Give you a chance to respond to that even though some of these are not super on topic But i mean real quick i'd say i'd love to have a debate with someone on which is better for humanity christianity Christianity or as long i will i got some study i'll do that i'll do that debate any day of the week buddy i've got any day of the week James if you could sort that out i'm very happy to do that debate Well that sounds fun You got it or or actually somebody else from my platform. I'm probably not the best person for that actually But somebody else on the platform. That's fine. I'm happy to anyway. Sure. I got a lot of research to go through though a lot Lot was it research like today's because if it was buddy, you need to possibly do read some more books Anyway, i'm well i read a lot of books, but sociological research specifically Okay, so if i can just speak to that very quickly james It was a bit of an attack on the muslim community in a way Yes, i mean if you look everywhere everywhere Indonesia, morocco south of spain north africa Still in arabia iran you will find the indigenous communities of all of those places still there You go to indonesia. You don't find arabs. You find indonesians. You go to morocco. You find moroccan They all are united by islam and often by a common language or a base language arabic But you find the indigenous population still ruling there when you go to america north america you go to canada You go to spain after the reconquista. You go to australia, right? You go to all of these places whole continents The indigenous people were wiped out completely wiped out by and it was often fueled by a christian notion Which is that the white saviour mentality, okay? So the fact of the matter is the facts of history speak for themselves But all the places is slam spread the indigenous populations still are ruling there all the places christianity spread through protestant movement And often through the catholic movement as well the whole of south america principally the ruling classes became europeans european christians So I think that speaks for itself and that's a yeah, that's just a bivariant means comparison. It's its fallacy This would not be accepted as real research in any sociological study Again, bivariant means comparisons do not work that well You need to go on what actual multivariate analysis with robustness check show and again, you don't want to bring those studies up I got plenty This one coming in from do appreciate your question josh will wooden strikes again says outcomes razor Christ is the truth not knowing this is why there are so many. Let's see See this easy principle no cults Uh, let's look at for something josh why I hate to say that I need something more on Stop it. Addison weir says, what do you guys think of david wood's recent video in which he argues that the koran Might actually teach jesus's resurrection Yeah, I mean I read uh, I mean I've seen kalil andani Make these arguments that the koran could very well indicate that and again. I'm not an expert on this But I would appeal more to him. I thought he made a good case. So I refer people to that It was on the capture and christianity channel. I saw i'm doing it You got it I think it's self-evidently false. I mean That simply says he was on the cross because if I say to you if I say to you you appear to be dead Or you it's the same I say to michael michael you look so healthy today I can't be looking at james and say michael looks healthier. I have to actually be looking at Michael to say that he looks any way whatsoever So when it says in the crime that he appeared to them as though he was dead It's a simple statement It simply means he was on the cross he looked dead and then but he wasn't Because it says they did not kill him It precedes the statement that he looked a particular way by saying they did not kill him Don't you lie. I look old. How dare you say I look healthy. I'm practically in the grave at this point One foot in the grave even maybe you could say This one coming in from do appreciate your question joshel wooden says We're gonna let me Like vet those before apollo's christian apologetic says jesus rose because he's god causation in parentheses, but Epistemically he's god because he rose no difference No different than muslim who says koran is divine because of god, but you know a la because of the koran So no, you don't know a la because of the koran actually The koranic view is that every human being knows god internally because god is imprinted upon the soul of mankind the unity of god You got it this one coming in from do appreciate this one as well Jay dan says for both Why did a la make it look like jesus died with this causing the biggest false religion in the world then a la punishes christians falling for this lie So it's a great question god didn't make it look like he died God said that he appeared to them as dead when he was on the cross But afterwards when he was seen by everybody, guess what everybody Concluded he survived. That's why jesus's message took off is because they saw him as paul says 500 saw him And they therefore saw that he had not died I mean i belabor the point because it's it's self-evident if you see a person post an assassination attempt with the wounds of their assassination upon their body It is a pre foregone conclusion that they survived. There is no other hypothesis one would entertain That is the only conclusion one would entertain and that's why when he was asked are you a ghost? He denied being a ghost and then he proved the necessity of his human body by asking for fish and bread It's funny that even jesus and all the disciples said, oh you you came back to life No one ever in the first century posited that he survived It's only centuries later that we get this so the actual thing they said was that he came back to life Not that he survived. So there's just no evidence in the first century that anyone believed that Okay, i've given my i've given my view on that and we've gone through that Joshua wooden says watchers get paper and record record all fallacies from each side learned from learned this from jesus expected to get their attention You got it. No idea what that means I don't either jay this one coming in from chris ells says such a cruel irony that let's see uh atheists under it's okay Joshua woods says keep track of shirk as he said issa is a false prophet No, I don't think he said that I don't think you said I never said that I said that wooden you're off the rails man. You're just Sorry guys, it's uh There was a really interesting comment if I may james read it out by one big youtube called apostate prophet Who is who is logged in? I don't know if you saw his comment Yeah, yeah, I know Can I we'll get to his I promise AP Because I hope you're behaving out there this one from Hunk giver says if jesus was speaking metaphorically about being quote the son of man on quote How do you reconcile mark? 1462 when jesus clearly references daniel question for true islam uk Well, i'm just pointing out that he was the son of he was not the son of man because he was born of a virgin It's a very simple point if you're born of a virgin you are not the son of a man You might be the grandson of a man You're not the son of a man and therefore any usage of his term of the son of a man is evidently Metaphorical it cannot be literal According to christian theology That the word for man also means human just so we know that that's how it was used in that context as well Well, it's interesting because the quran only refers to isa is issa ibn mariam, which means jesus's son of mary Day, well, I mean again, son of man is a title that we see from daniel seven about who the messiah was going to be did not refer to his biological ancestors No, I agree with that. That's absolutely fine. I'm not i'm not i'm not disagreeing that my point is is that if you're going to You what the christians necessarily therefore take it metaphorically to some extent at least because they accept that he was not born of a man They also have a secondary meaning was they set man as a term which is used for humanity So that's the metaphorical aspect of it if that makes sense Well, then my point is that you you you don't use the same for the son of god That's my point but but but we we went through this and you said no i You accept this metaphorical as son of god as well. Yeah, I get that that's fine. I appreciate that You got it this one coming in from obey says if the disciples didn't eventually understand why christ needed to die Why did james not try to persuade paul to preach some different something different in galatians too Right. Well, if you go to x 21, I mean again, james, it just says he's on the same page with paul His issue is hey guys or hey paul These jews believe you're telling jews to stop following the law of moses Again paul doesn't say that you go to first chrithian seven. He says if you're of the circumcised remain there You're of the uncircumcised remain there james then confirms exactly the same thing in verse 25 As for the Gentiles, we sent them this letter that we see in acts 15 that they do not have to become strict jews There are certain things they should need to follow which goes back again to what we see in genesis nine Where the covenant god makes with noa and he gives all these commands to all of humanity the jews had a specific covenant They kept following james followed paul followed but the Gentiles didn't have to they followed the covenant We see they were given the noa You got it and folks if i haven't yet go ahead No, no go on do your thing. Sorry. Oh, you're good. Please What have you got one chrithians 9 20 paul actually says to the jews I became as a jew in order to win the jews to those under the law I became as one under the law Though not myself being myself under the law that I may win those under the law Right. Yeah, you're for that's what that's what he that's what he says in one chrithians now We know that paul was an actual fact the jew And yet he himself says in his own letters that he that the law did not apply to him He says though not much being myself under the law I assume The garb of the law so that I may win them over so he's openly Except that he's a hypocrite Okay, he openly accepts that there is a difference in his word and his deed and his belief in his heart and his actions Right and he himself says that he being a jew did not practice We was not under the law So I don't know what this argument is that oh paul and james had no difference paul himself behaved in a way which was contrary to james's Stipulated statement and which is why james required him to repent publicly of his doctrines, which he did So paul publicly repented of modern-day christian doctrines So i'm not sure where you're getting this from that paul never advocated Jews for not following the law and I would put it to you now Do you tell jews who become christian do you tell them they have to continue to follow all of the laws of moses? Again, I I agree with to a youtube channel two messianic jews who were on my channel about this That yes jewish christian still follow the Torah and again paul says in first chrithian seven If you're of the circumcised remain there and first chrithian is not he's talking about punishments And there's been a lot of scholarly work on this which I don't have time to go into but this is entirely irrelevant In the very chapter you cited first chrithian or ax 21 james agrees with paul in verse 25 So why does he say in 9 20? I put it to you though not myself being under the law He's talking about the punishments the same thing we see with the issue in Ephesians Yeah, I mean there's always an interpretation not a plain reading the plain reading is he says i'm not under the law He says I well if you talk about plain reading jesus died that's the plain reading of the gospels you're denying So if you want to talk about interpretation We've gone to the plain reading is a man seen after crucifixion with the wounds means he's alive Means he survived the plain reading of john 19 says he died All right, okay Do appreciate it joshua wooden strikes again. He says Don't worry. It's it's more related to what we talked about. He says john 858 says before abraham was iam So jesus never claimed to be god. I don't understand how you can say this without gymnastics Yeah, you go to psalm 92 in the sub two agent It says before the mountains were and then it says you are if that if you in the greek That is a perfect way to say what jesus is saying just in third person So jesus is saying it in first person in john 858 So again, psalm 92 in the sub two agent before the mountains were a couple of things and then you are and that Just this third person what we see a first person structure construction in john 858 You got it and folks we are close to 600 likes if we get to 600 likes I will put up a mildly insulting poll for postate profit and I really want to do this something Something to do with how much soy he consumes. I don't know by the way folks. Do you notice? I always love these new youtube features. You can like a person's super chat now So if you agree with their super chat, you can click like on it. How neat is that? this one coming in from Addison wire says true islam uk you seem let's see you see you're very charming very respectful And uh, they say I like you more than allie dawg for allie dawg. So it's like they say why I've got I've got no time I've got no time for allie dawg whatsoever. You are you are you are a million times better than allie dawg Juicy, oh poor it. What if he's watching? This one key to thanks for your super chat. Let me know if you had to attach a question Awesome. Can I respond to that very briefly go ahead? So the first first thing is asked for a postate profit I mean, you know, I'm also very happy james if you want to ever organize a debate with him on atheism or anything Most most happy to do so But the key thing I want to say about allie dawg is, you know, he espouses unaslaming views in my view In the akhmediya viewpoint in particular We do not believe that there is any worldly punishment for apostasy And this is a major fallacy that Muslims have got wrong in the modern day There is no documented evidence of the prophet Muhammad ever killing a single person for leaving the faith And the Quran makes it clear multiple times that a person can believe and then disbelieve and then believe and then disbelieve and then believe and then disbelieve The third time and the only punishment they all receive is the one in here after god So the Quran is absolutely clear that in obviously if you can believe and disbelieve three times Then that's obviously false if the punishment for death is For disbelief is death because you die the first time you wouldn't be able to believe and disbelieve again So, you know, there's so many arguments made like that and I really despise the way some Muslims unfortunately butcher the Quran And make it into a very hateful book when it is not as a book of which establishes peace in the world That's an actual fact the reality of this one You got it. This one coming in from Avery van zil says jesus allowed man born blind that he healed to worship him in john 9 Verse 38 then the man said lord, I believe and he worshiped him Yeah, I mean Yes, is that for me or for jet michael? I think they're saying like that the gospels are suggesting that jesus is god I think that's what they're trying to say Uh, that's the underlying message. You just have to read between the lines a little bit Yeah, there are instances where people try to bow down to him And he picked them up from the ground Where he told for example, there is the lady who who grabbed at the hem of his hem of his cloak for example But there aren't any These words we have to always go back to the original greek and look at what it means Sometimes these meanings can mean praise a person For example the word lord as has been pointed out by michael It was not just used just for jesus the word lord is often used for multiple figures in the bible and for multiple things But it's the same word that's also used for god So we have to ask the question did whether if people worship jesus spontaneously in the moment That's that's a separate question. I said something different. I said jesus never solicited worship He never said to any of his disciples bow down and worship me He always said bow down and worship the father and if there was no Difference between him and the father and the question is then why did he do that? You got it this one coming in from Go ahead mic. Go ahead. No, that's good. You got it. You say question for muslim The other is to hear they say hypothetically if the bible is true Does it concern you at all that you would in fact be an enemy of the actual quote unquote christ? I'm sorry. Can you say that again? I missed that If the bible is true, does it concern you at all that you would in fact be an enemy of the actual christ? No, it wouldn't and i'll tell you why because the old testament clearly states that god does not die It states that in multiple places. I can bring up the quotes if you want You know, I'll bring them up in a moment if you wish does god die according to old testament. Okay Well, well, let's see what we have here It's very clearly stated in in the old testament that god does not die So on the day of judgment, I suppose that's the question you're asking me when i'm presented for jesus with his Holds and his hands and his feet and he says why did you not accept my sacrifice for me? What answer will you give right? I'll say very cliff simply You said explicitly in the old testament that you don't die And then you go ahead and die and pretend that you're god Which one of my spit to believe I believe the one that came first I believe the one that was absolute. I believe the one that didn't indicate Other otherwise, right? I believe in the absolute statements that you made in the old testament So that's the answer i'm going to give to god But the question I have for you in actual fact and to the speaker Is that if you have violated the old testament statements, which is you were to take no gods for god beside the one Which is the first commandment What answer will you give to god When god says why did you not believe I could forgive you without atonement without punishment? Why did you not why did you worship and bow down before a man? Why did you worship before graven images? Why did you worship before statues of jesus? Why did you worship before all these things? That's the question that god will ask you i'm sure Where is the verse that says god cannot die? Okay, i'll i'll bring it up sure You go on with the questions i'll i'll get that up Amelia says question That one's for you so i'm going to say that one for you. Let me find one here that are ones for mike I don't know who this is for they say they Raised 174 says the jins convinced paul to ruin the original islamic christianity It did such a good job that we don't even have any sources or evidence they even existed I'm sorry They said the jins convinced paul There might want to if you explain jins for people if they're new convince paul to ruin the original islamic christianity I think they're being sarcastic, but i can't tell Okay I'm not sure let me i'm still trying to get up the old testament father does not die I've seen them i read them the other day, so i just want to get them out Um, let's see if we can get up. Um the jinn I mean, I don't think the word the question is really even worth answering in all honesty, but the jinn are basically Uh simply is a word in arabic, which means that which is hidden It does not necessarily mean spirits or genie or demons. It means that which is hidden So the word janna which is paradise comes from the word jinn because paradise is hidden You know the the the women women in society are often referred to as jinn in arabic because they are usually veiled And so they're hidden and so jinn simply refers usually when it says jinn and men in the quran It actually mainly refers to that class of society Which are above and beyond other other people like celebrities the the the rulers who are Beyond the site of the ordinary people and therefore they are hidden That's an actual fact the main meaning of jinn given in the quran So no the jinn didn't convince paul. It was only his Unfortunate, um, sorry spiritual state that made him a hypocrite and go against jesus's original messing So i've got some quotes from uh From the bible from the old testament that that god cannot die um Sorry, so here we go. Um Sorry, uh, I typed in the father. I meant the i meant this i mean god. Let me just bring it back up Go on to the next question. I'll get up for you You got it and in the meantime folks got to let you know that paul is doing well It's in the live chat right now. How much soy does posse profit consume per day? uh the The options range from one to two soylents Which is like a soy protein shake like on demand shake And all the way up to all the soy currently with 67 percent of the votes right now There are hundreds that have voted on that Here is paul amer says if jesus came to india Why was mohammed unaware of this? Um, so that's that's a great question. Um, i've got the quote now one timothy 616 god is the only one who Well god is the only one who never dies That's in the new testament that that is in the new testament. You're quite right. I do apologize I do have one from the old testament as well, which i'll get up in a minute I'm just struggling with doing it at the same time as everything because my internet's not very good And doesn't seem to be loading quickly. Um You mean, you know he's talking about the father there, right? Yeah, well, that's the problem You you you make rules for the father and then make different rules for the son and then say that they're the same person So that's that's to me as the father became human. They don't think the father became flesh So yeah, there is is a distinction No, well, well, I mean then they're not one if there is a distinction between them They're not one this is the fundamental problem that people christians face Is that if there is if there are three beings and they're actual one Then there is redundancy You don't need two of them because they're all the same If there is if there is a perfect quality between all of them Then there's redundancy and if there isn't a perfect quality between all of them and one is beneath the other Then it means the one beneath the other is not god So then you have a demi god. You don't actually have god So this is the problem This is the the tug of war and christianity between redundancy and hierarchy Which is so real quick I will just say I debunked all this in an interview I did on reason answers apologetics on the trinity and I show using philosophy of mind And basic logic. No, this is not a logical issue This makes perfect sense If you start using language from philosophy of mind because within philosophy of mind You can have multiple persons that are one being and it can be completely logically coherent I've also I also want to ask you a question So you mentioned the new testament that that quote from one Timothy is from the new testament But why is that not applicable? So one two three six sixteen says god is the only one who never dies So please could you square the circle with that for me because if you read the letter of first Timothy He's clearly talking about the father there. God is a title for the father throughout this entire book Okay, so different rules again for father and son and yet equality between them and equalness And that they're the same being and because that was the basis of you saying atonement The god forgives because he took the shame of having guilt upon himself But now you're saying that there are different rules for one or the other So they're obviously not the same thing if one can die and the other one can't that's a pretty big rule That's a pretty big rule to be different upon if what if my bro can die And I don't die It's not really reasonable to say where the same being does is it now Well, yeah, one is the extinction life One is the extinction of life and the other one is the continuation of life forever Yeah, because Jesus became human and then his body died and then he went back to his father The same thing that happened word when we die the father didn't become human. So he doesn't die Yeah, I know you I'm sorry But any logical rational mind is simply doesn't make sense because say the father became human didn't become human But the son became human is in itself to posit a fundamental difference between the two One took on weakness and earthly necessity and the other one was Was perfect for all time and didn't die and so one took on all the attributes Which are contrary to godhood and the other one didn't take on the Maintain the attributes of godhood and yet they're simultaneously the same being so again My interview this is multiple times again see the interview. This is not to debate But I cover that all in that interview I mentioned where it's all basically covered and using philosophy of mind This one coming in from do appreciate it. Gerald Anthony says ti true Islam in ua closing statement you pointed That you pointed out that ip is approaching the subject from a christian lens and you do it historically What sources support you a position? What sources support my position outside of the bible? Or in the bible I think they mean any at all Well, I mean I've gone through quite a lot. I mean I've gone through the bible So briefly in terms of extra biblical sources. I'll go through a few of those There's the hindu scripture which mentions jesus in 78 ad to 102 ad Maybe she missed that particular point I can show the slide again if she whispers or you're happy to james Where it basically says in hindu scriptures completely nothing to do with christian to islam That jesus that a person who was called isha the messiah isha mesi Who was born in a virgin called himself the son of god who was fair skin Who was persecuted in another land and fled to the land of kashmir Was in actual fact Whose religion was love truth and purity the heart is what he said these these characteristics only fit jesus And he was met with by king who was the king shalivana who only ruled from 78 ad to 102 ad And that's mentioned in the book bahavisia mahapurana, which is written in sanskrit got nothing to do with Islam nothing to do with christianity the only individual in human history who ever claimed to be born a virgin Was a son of god and was persecuted in that age Was jesus but what michael will say and i'll i'll preempt it if i may michael He'll say that that's got nothing to do with whether he died on the cross Because he could have died on the cross and then migrating gone to india just like the Mormons believe that he went to america to me It's very clear It's a contradiction of the bible and luke where he says he went up to heaven and ascended to heaven Um and that he's been sitting there on the right hand of god for eternity since then And to me it speaks of a man who is fulfilling isai 53, which is that he god shall prolong his days This is something that michael hasn't actually addressed and i would be grateful if michael could it says an isai 53 that You know god will prolong this person's days who is suffering the suffering servant and he shall see his seed Now when you say somebody's life will be prolonged it's self-evident That it doesn't mean he'll die and then his life will be prolonged because everybody gets an eternal life after death Okay, well i'll address it really quick prolonged beforehand. Yes, please Yeah, i mean as a 53 7 says he was like a lamb led to the slaughter refers to being cut off from the land of living in the Verse 8 so if you want to take that literally he was led to the slaughter He was slaughtered and he was cut off from the land of the living again These are typological prophecies the suffering servant is israel jesus fulfills that in a typological sense the same way he fulfills other Typological prophecies there's a whole discussion on this in craig blomberg's book the reliability of the gospels Uh john wedham also discussed this at times so again if we're going to take things literally we're just going to cherry pick But again, i'm going to go on what the first century sources say Jesus died resurrected and then ascended and even if even if the second two are wrong He still overwhelmingly says that he died multiple times So there's no first century sources says jesus went to india. So james There are anyway, there are but never mind the the james if i may there is a clear statement in the bible And the old testament as well as i've mentioned timothy mentions that god doesn't die Old testament also says same saint sarm 92 90 and then Cologne too before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world from everlasting to everlasting you are god Right from everlasting to everlasting what that means is you can't have an intermission in everlasting where you don't exist anymore because you're dead Okay, we're equivocating on the work dead because jesus didn't cease to exist when he died his body just died right um Again, so this is this is again more kind of word play i would say Where we call, you know, it's word play. It's basically, you know, it's something that paul did and actually paul pioneered this kind of Virtual reality world where jesus Inhib inhabitants multiple realms simultaneously, but only in the heads of christians Um, it doesn't there's no indication in the bible of any of that a plain reading of it indicates a man who is suffering But then it's interpreted that the man is dying, but the god part of him isn't Um, where they get that from I don't know really No, because the hypostatic union says that you know, would you die you don't go to existence your spirit goes on Where's the hypostatic union stated clearly by jesus? Again, it's Stated clearly by jesus. Yeah, I mean again jesus claims to be god, but he's also human So I mean you see it throughout the gospels gospel of john. It's always throughout there. He's clearly a man, but he's also god Well, can I just make this point which is that the quran for example multiple times make statements Which in which the prophet muhammad is described as his hand is the hand of god For example, if you read the buddhist literature buddha says that he is the representative god Some people he also makes very similar statements of iron the way the truth and the light He also makes very similar statements that he is to know him is to know god Now all messengers from god and all religions they all use this metaphorical language of total union with god It doesn't mean they are god It means pulling context from other in different cultures. I prefer to take the context of jesus's jewish culture Sorry jenny quick here. We've got a This one coming in from sorry james. We just can't help it That's no problem. This one from joshua wood in our her old pal. He says most used fallacy False equivalency and false dilemma. They say well done michael other side. Thanks for coming and it was a great debate Let's see. They say they they say hey, you're a strong debater So they're giving you some street cred jerald anthony says ti Oh, we got that one Let me just first one maybe Hmm True islam, maybe ti. Is that what she's referring to? Oh, yeah, that one I just realized that we had read that one, but let's get to this one from abri Thanks very much says you used a prophecy in isaah 53 about messiah It says he will die in verse nine. He was assigned a grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death Yeah, I mean that's that's again. I don't take that as Uh, people considered him to be dead people believed he was dead his disciples all fled everywhere Um, and this is why as I mentioned in my in my talk when jonah says that I am I would call to you from the land of the dead Everybody understood it to mean and most people perhaps other than michael understood it to mean that jonah was one foot in the grave And he was in the land of the dead in the same way that the daughter of jairus was uh thought to be dead People were mourning and waiting outside a room and jesus goes in there and what does he do? He says She is not dead. She is sleeping right So she was in a coma like state And he brought her out of it through his present through his holy touch So again, I don't see a problematic for me that is described as him having the tomb of the rich Uh, and the wicked in his death because that refers to what the people's perception of him was And this is also part of the meaning to be right risen from the dead and Going back a little bit to a separate point You know, we should also remember that the david, uh, if we're going back to the Perhaps if this comes up in a son of god question again, I'll bring this up. Actually, I don't want to Mix two topics Yeah, well, I was just remember verse verse seven says he's led to like land like a slaughter Verse eight says he was cut off from the land of the living not put not put in the grave verse nine says He was in death says he made his grave with the wicked and with the rich man in his death So and then right there. Yeah, this is metaphorical poetical language in the same way that joe Well, then so is the offspring aspect then it's no it's not because no because you can't what offspring and what how We're prolonging his days. How can you put on these days who dies? That's metaphorical language. It's metaphorical. No, no, no, you have to demonstrate the metaphor The metaphor is very clear that if people perceive him to be dead Then you can describe them as one who is as if he has died one who is dead This is why Jonah says I I was called upon you from the land of shale It doesn't mean that he in actual fact was in shale. It meant that he was in a state akin to death He was just gonna say whatever you want a metaphorical language I'm gonna say the same thing about whatever you say that just double standard except that I have a legitimate reason to say that forgive me This one coming in from Amelia says question for true Islam in john 1918 Who is the one in the middle that has been crucified in verse 30? He gave up his Ghost that's that's all they say I don't even understand the question perhaps my so in in the gospels It does say that he gave up his spirit gave up his ghost in the synoptics So it's basically a common term you would use to say somebody died And that's what basically every scholar would say about this. It refers him giving up the ghost I fully agree with you Michael. I'm you know, I I want to emphasize the point to the viewers Maybe they've come a bit later into this discussion. I don't deny that the gospel writer doesn't believe that he had died That's not That's and the gospel narrative is that he had died what I'm saying is that they are mistaken What I'm saying is is that these were interpolated back interpolated by a lot of the followers of paul You look at the gospel of thomas for example, it doesn't have this narrative There's lots of other gospels which are redacted from the bible In the council nicaea, which we haven't really gone into a touch to any of that But these four gospels are four gospels from a particular group's narrative. What about the nicaea? What about nicaea? Sorry, not not not counselling nicaea. There was another one. Sorry. Um, in which the Sorry, I do apologize. Um, and that was the one where Constantine accepted christianity So there were there were there were several councils in fact Not just one in which decisions were made as to which gospels keeping the bible or not And these were the ones which were of the group of paul saint paul And his group believed that jesus had died for the sins of mankind So it's not surprising that the gospels should give that view because but there are other gospels that do not give that view But they were thrown out for no good reason fundamentally on the fact that they were thrown out because they date to the second and third century Yeah, okay, so we can disagree on that and perhaps you can have another debate on that That's absolutely fine. But the point I want to make is that We're not disagreeing. I don't disagree with you that he said this says that he gave up the ghost and that the gospel Right believed that he came out from the dead. I don't disagree with that I'm saying is that the facts the events of the crucifixion have a different interpretation Which is that he had survived and that the narrative that he died Is not one which is evidence because when you look at a person post assassination attempt who is walking around with his wounds It means he is alive And that's what he's prayed for I'm working on a video which will be out in june called mark and i witness account were argued that marx source was peter And so this would be another chain of evidence and there's a lot of really good evidence for that So how was peter's come out of curiosity just perhaps you can explain to me now How is peter an eyewitness to anything when it says clearly in the gospels that all the disciples fled at the time of the crucifixion He's do i witness to the ministry is my point. Yeah, i witness Okay, so about the crucifixion and the crucifixion. No, that would be john the beloved disciple Who said he was at the cross there was he a disciple because it says all the disciples fled Yeah, all of his 12 disciples fled. I think that was john mark who became john the elder you can see luc vanda way's book Living footnotes on the gospels where he points out that that's most likely the john because there were multiple johns So richard bacham luc vanda way we argue this was john mark who was there not john the son is ebony So the strongest and most beloved disciples fled but the lower disciples who are newer they didn't flee Yeah Right that doesn't make much sense to me. But anyway, we that's a separate question This one coming in from unapologetic Apologetic says they didn't see a totally ripped apart body. They saw a glorified body when he rose Why would they be happy about a zombie like resurrection body? I'm confused. I don't believe he had a zombie like resurrection, but I believe he had a body Which was the same pre-crucifixion with wounds He was a person who'd gone through an assassination attempt and had survived And so he still had the wounds on his hands and on his legs and they were joyful because they thought he had dead If it was die, I lost my ability to speak english at this time of the night They had he had he they were joyful because they saw that their beloved master Was still alive if you met your father after you thought that he'd been assassinated and hey presto He's actually alive. I think you'd probably be pretty happy to see him This one from ozian talk says atheism won still not sure if jesus was crucified Apostate prophet says I wish all debaters were like tahir and mike not clowns like daniel and ap That was definitely a juicy debate But I've got to tell you folks if you haven't watched their recent debate It's worth watching daniel hookig to muslim skeptic against apostate prophet Well, there was no clowning around it was uh hot and heavy. It was a slobber knocker josh. It was amazing Says doctor you say water does not surround the lungs No, I never said that Yeah Hector says true islam should debate ip on what is better for mankind christianity or islam It could be a two versus one if he wants a fellow am I saying this right chic To assist shake Sorry, I'm not a shake in the first place. So getting a fellow shake would be even harder, but He says I take his kind point for calling me a shake is very kind of him Say they could bring shaky a booty. Is that a that's a person? I don't know who that is and nor will I bring him. I could never be a shake white people have no rhythm We don't know how to move our hips This one from obey with you. I'm with you there michael. I'm the same They say to tahrir. Why is jesus the second adam? He's the second adam because adam was born of a virgin too You got it. This one coming in from you appreciate it. You got that one from abry Hey, I asses for them tahrir if you say jesus can't be god because god can't die By your standard jesus must be god because in the caran. He's the only human to never die Jesus is oh my god. This is so delicious G All my ahmadi friends are probably looking at this killing themselves laughing right now Jesus is mentioned to have died in the Quran More than all other individuals put together There are 30 verses of the Quran which state that he is dead Well, ma'am other than illa rasul qad khalat min qabli herosol. Muhammad is only a messenger Verily the messengers before him passed away the immediately preceding messenger was Muhammad was jesus Chapter three verse 145. There are certainly verses i can give to you. Sorry. Is it three 155? I thought 145 But in in some in some Quran's where the bismillah is not counted the first verse you'll find is three one four four I mean jesus is mentioned in the Quran is having died more than literally anyone else Right multiple verses from every angle is described him as having died already So, you know, this is unfortunately a A misconception a lot of muslims have this misconception too So I don't blame your speaker. I don't mean in any way to offend her or him by laughing I wasn't laughing at the person. I was just I was just amused by the idea I would say that is a thousand times more reasonable than those traditional sunni idea that jesus Didn't die and there was a substitution. I completely agree. I actually think in some ways There's good reason in my view to believe that there's suddenly idea of substitution theories more absurd than It's I mean, I don't say it's more absurd in my view than that christian view But I mean it really gets up there with absurdity because in in a way it is because Like all the historical works say that a person named jesus was put on the cross and people saw him there So then to start arguing that oh no somebody else then that is actually an act of trickery on behalf of god For putting somebody else who looked like jesus there and also an act of idiocy on the part of people that they couldn't tell One person from another So i'm completely with you there, but this is for me. This is not basic Well, not for me. It's a fact. There's nowhere in the quran. The quran is completely against it The quran gives the soon theory very clearly as I've demonstrated and in actual fact I'll stop on because I've been talking too much, but in actual fact the The this is actually a christian idea which came into islam You see the christian idea of the ascension The christian idea of the ascension was brought into islam But they couldn't accept that jesus died on the cross because the quran is so clear that he didn't And so they got rid of they put the ascension prior to the crucifixion Does that make sense michael? The scholar speculated may be a gnostic idea the whole substitution idea, but that's very possibly This one coming in from do appreciate it auto says What would you say to the representatives of religions who don't believe in jesus's or muhammad's divinity? Will they go to hell? So marmot wasn't divine Yeah, michael when you go first I would say Do I here's the thing about christian? We don't say who and who is not going to hell only god knows and only god can judge properly Like what he jesus says in john 941 and 1522 if i had not come They would not be guilty, but now that i've come they have no excuse so god judges everyone properly I cannot say somebody is part of the body of christ if they deny jesus's divinity I think that's very clearly taught in the bible you can see books like jesus among the gods by michael f bird for example We're putting jesus in his place by robert bowman jr. And at kamishevski If you understand the ancient jewish context jesus taught he was god over and over again by constantly citing old testament passages Doing things only god could do that the old testament says only god could do so there's just numerous references to that You've got it for me Muhammed was not god. We do not believe any god can be incarnate into any human form God is immaterial and beyond and beyond and beyond us entirely and can never die We also I would share very much with michael's View that we cannot condemn anyone to god the judgment is in the hands of god alone No human being can call another human being Hellbound in fact the prophet muhammad was explicit on this that this is actual in fact an act of attributing partners with god as if you are god So it's an actual fact of greater sin on your part than even Anything else that they could do This one coming in from do appreciate it Abri van zil says True islam you use prophecy in isaia 53 about the messiah It says he will die in verse 9. He was assigned a grave with the wicked and we got that one. Sorry. I've already read that Let me see. I think we're getting to the close to the bottom of the list abri sent another one They say what did jesus mean in john 10 17? The reason my father loves me is that I lay down my life only to take it up again 18 No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down on my own accord says jesus Yeah, jesus is a full word for this reason the father loves me because I lay down my life that I may take it up again No one takes it for me, but I lay it down on my own accord I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it up again this charge I received from the father So this falls very much in line with the idea jesus died in rose and Menarchical trinitarianism which is the idea that jesus does have the authority to do these things because he is ontologically god As he does proceed from the father or is the god of the father If I may um james, of course There's nothing in that that you know indicates a death To lay down your life and be willing to lay down your life Is an act which any human being can do for another one if they see them in danger If you go and help somebody who is being mugged in a sense you have put your life We call it in english. We call it putting your life on the line Okay, this doesn't mean that you an actual fact did die to lay down your life and take it up again Is actually a prophecy that it will that I will put myself or I will be willing to put myself in a position of grave threat Whereby people will consider me to have died, but in actual fact my life will be taken up This is poetical metaphorical language It's extraordinary that in everything christians accept that jesus spoke in parables when it comes to his actual crucifixion prophecies All the parables go out the window all of a sudden. Um, is there any um any greek references where this phrase means not dead? Like any comparison to lay down your life? Yeah, I don't have that for me. I don't have that before me. I'm afraid okay You got it this one coming in front. I do appreciate it joshua wooden says Again He sips Why is there a poll about ap and sorry ap beat daniel? this one from Cheeky cheeky. I think they're saying is it maybe it's pronounced shaky. They say well done ap god bless you Lebel says who was adam's virgin mother, please Um, so the chronic view is that adam is not the first man The chronic view is adam is the first prophet of this cycle of humanity And that there have been many many cycles of humanity each cycle being seven thousand years long approximately And that the adam of our particular cycle Is the adam of our particular cycle and that there before before hundreds of thousands years millions of years There have been multiple cycles of humanity in that the pran says about jesus It says the case of adam in reference to the virgin birth in particular says the case of jesus is as the case with adam God said to him b and e was so the way in which jesus was produced through a virgin birth is also the chronic view on how adam was produced And you got one last thing adam is described in the pran as a caliph at all Are which means a caliph or a successor in the earth which means they were human beings who preceded him It says that they did not had not received divine revelation He was the first in the in this cycle of humanity to receive divine revelation to be appointed as a prophet You got it. Did I read this one? They say did the angel lie at matthew 28 7 then go quickly and tell his disciples quote He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into galley There you will see him Now I have told you Again risen from the place of the dead is how I would understand that and again The metaphorical language is not only in reference to his existence coming back from near death or a state Which was akin to death, but also his mission was resurrected. We have to remember that The whole point of killing jesus was to kill his mission. It wasn't actually about killing him It was to prove that he was a curse of god So when he was risen it also means that his mission was risen because it was proven that he was not a curse of god That is a prayer in the garden of gethsemane was accepted by the prophecy of isiah 53 that he will see his day's lengthens and see his seed was fulfilled arc has a question for mike they say for Inspiring philosophy are any of the authors you quoted eyewitnesses and what proof do we have of that? Yeah, uh, john is an eyewitness Uh, you can check out craig blombards book on the reliability of the gospel of john Richard bachem jesus and the eyewitnesses There's a lot of evidence that john is an eyewitness. I'll be doing a video on that as well I'm gonna go do one on each gospel because um As well luke interviewed eyewitnesses as luke van de wey's worked shows as well as uh, john j peters Uh book on the gospel of luke. Uh, so there's a lot of really good evidence for this So yeah, I do think john was an eyewitness at the cross. It wasn't john the son is ebony in my view It was john mark who became john the elder You got it this one coming in from Joshua wooden says you said you hung on a tree Means false prophet as he is accursed and I mean no offense You both did well even knew james Thank you and in terms of you saying that jesus was hung on a tree means that he was a false prophet I'll give you a chance to respond to that to here So what I meant was that it says in the it says in the bible and deutronomy as I quoted that he who is hung on the Wood is a cursed of god and a cursed obviously cannot be a prophet of god and be a cursed To be a cursed is an attribute of satan as I've mentioned It means to be put out of the love of god put away from the love of god Put a big big put away a love from god altogether And so you cannot say that a prophet who speaks in god's name and is his messenger and emissary and representative Is necessarily going is going to be a curse Because how can a person select somebody as their representative and yet that representative be a cursed be put away from them by definition That person is their representative and therefore near them You got it. Thanks very much for your question This one coming in from jason v says assuming jesus got off across alive How likely is it that he walked blocks on pierced feet? Isn't it more likely that jesus would say ouch instead of Quote my lord when thomas touched him Yeah, and it also says that jesus had nail marks in his hands It's just it'd be kind of ad hoc to say that it appears this feat that would just be expected given the cultural context and what we hear about it He could have been on a he could have been on a meal He could have been on a horse I mean, there's quite a lot of possibilities here that we are not really Possibility isn't probably but it's actually I find I still find it Well, I mean if you can talk about probabilities and possibilities You should really really think about resurrecting from the dead is whether it's a possibility or not I mean it's very again I come out is very strange to me that somehow a person walking on a mule with injured feet is somehow Extraordinary, but a person coming back from the dead. Well, that sounds like evidence-based medicine to me Well, I mean, I say it was a miracle that jesus came back. I don't say he naturally came back I say it's naturally unlikely that you've been able to walk on pierced feet This one coming in from do appreciate it truth finder says true islam The Koran said jesus was never killed nor crucified Crucifixion means hanging someone on a pole jesus ever hanged on the cross, but didn't die That false fies either the Koran or your argument Sorry james, can you explain that for me the other feelings on this question? I think he's appealing to sewer four So I think I think what they what I meant to say is I misread it too. They say if jesus Oh No, maybe I did get that right if jesus ever hanged on the cross, but didn't die that false fies either the Koran or your argument No, it doesn't because as I've shown repeatedly I think a lot of the people haven't actually seen my presentation Perhaps the Koran supports the swoon theory explicitly states They did not kill him through crucifixion nor was he killed through a spear or through any other means But he was made to appear to them as one like that So it means that he appeared to them as though he was dead on the cross Which means he was not dead on the cross, but he looked like it which is a swoon theory You got it this one from yasha weta king says the disciples only fled from the garden not the cross Well, no, he was abandoned for his crucifixion and then you have the gospel of john You have the women at the at the cross none of the 12 were there I would say it's john mark who shows up there. He takes jesus into it He takes jesus mother into his home and then she's there with him until Until she dies and I would say that's happening in acts 1212 where it's now mary is now called the mother of john mark And so that that would be the thing I think so no, I don't think the 12 were there, but there were other disciples like the women You got it This one coming in from do appreciate it Joshua wooden says paul a hypocrite He follows jewish law to guide them to christ So they are not in bondage to the law law is good christ is better and is freedom Oh, I read out the specific wording of one carinthians where he says the law. I'm not bound by the law Which is completely contradictory to what james says, which is the jews who accept jews are bound by the law That was the point I was making and then he publicly repented of modern day christian doctrines You got it and this one coming in from do appreciate it Grace 174 says the two giant angels carried him carried him out of the tomb on their shoulders To present him to everyone as having survived the crucifixion Right, either of you know what they're talking about Nobody okay this one coming in from Joshua wooden says slander is bad however Uh true islam uk Is a stronger debater than tick tock dan don't know who tick tock dan is do you guys know who tick tock dan is I know who he's talking about but let's not talk about it this one coming in from carol kinser says Question for ip if allowed if I didn't receive the holy spirit was I ever really a christian? If you didn't receive the holy spirit when you ever christian will know because But I mean anyone who asked for the holy spirit gets the holy spirit in jesus's name So if you never had the holy spirit, which would be unlikely if you actually were a professing christian, then No, I don't I don't see how that follows. So I'd have to know more of the context of what the question specifically is around You got it and thanks all over cat well for gifting those memberships in the chat folks We do have Memberships for the channel if you haven't yet check those out One of the coolest things about any membership is that if we ever put slow mode on for the live chat Because for example today we have over a thousand speed over a thousand viewers at one point Is slow mode just to make sure that the moderators can basically weed out anything that's against youtube terms of service but if you have a channel membership at modern day debate you can actually Have immunity to slow mode and you can type in whatever weird stuff you want as fast as you want Now if it goes against, you know, tos we still have to you know, delete it But nonetheless it'll at least make it harder for the mods But what to say folks. Thank you so much for being with us our guests are linked in the description Highly encourage you check out their links the the debaters are the lifeblood of the channel folks They make this fun. They make this a lively place here at modern day debates So do check out both inspiring philosophy and true islam uk's links in the description box And that includes if you're listening later on the podcast All of our debates are uploaded to the podcast within 24 hours being live on youtube At the podcast description box you can find those links as well So i want to say huge. Thank you to our guests true islam uk and mike jones. It's very philosophy. It's been a true pleasure to have you guys Yeah, thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you very much james. I've really enjoyed myself and michael as well I really appreciate your time and Your on your energy Yeah, I think you're a very respectful guy enjoyed the conversation That was amazing now folks I'll be back in just a moment with a post credits scene letting you know Coming debates and greeting you in the old live chat. So stick around And with that want to say one last thanks to our guests. I'll be back in just a few moments. Thanks everybody stick around Amazing want to say folks. Thanks so much for being with us tonight If it's your first time here at modern day debate Want to let you know first hit that subscribe button We have many more debates coming up and you don't want to miss out on those debates In particular you might be wondering you're like, well, what debates though james? I'm curious. Well This sunday actually whether or not islam is it's whether or not the quran is scientific You don't want to miss that that's going to be ozian and nadir. Ahmed debating one on one That's this sunday night. So if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button We have many more debates coming up in addition You may have seen at the bottom left of your screen. I'll show you guys this in just a moment We have indeed a sponsor for this debate because you might be wondering well, who's your sponsor james? What are you talking about? What's the sponsor? Well, what I'm saying is we have through modern day debate a deal with visible wireless In particular for every person that signs up for visible wireless, which is I will show you It's actually linked in the description box as well as I'm going to pin it in the old live chat if you happen to Use the visible wireless link you can get unlimited data and unlimited minutes and unlimited stacks or Only 20 bucks a month. You guys really it's a great deal If you are paying too much for your wireless, which odds are good that you may be because wireless Can be expensive. I highly encourage you check out that link in the description box Or I'm going to pin that in the live chat in just a moment. I gotta tell you folks save your money There are a lot of better things that you can spend your money on rather than wireless service for your phone And one way of saving money is using that link in the description box for the first 12 months. It's just 20 bucks a month You guys get a better deal than I get so for me I pay $25 a month and eventually after after the first year it's $25 a month But for the first month for the first year in fact, I didn't even get this for my first year. It's just 20 bucks a month crazy cheap Now if you're like me I'm big on Being thrifty being clever because I'm like, hey, why would I want to spend money on things that I don't need to When I can use them for things that I like for example, I don't know if you noticed me drinking this anw diet root beer during this debate not a sponsor not an affiliate I'll contact. I'll try to get a link from them so we could but I gotta tell you I like spending my money on diet soda and before you warn me about how diet soda will kill me I've got to tell you Check out that link from visible wireless. Let me pull that up on screen so you can see it again as You can save your money instead of spending Whatever much you're spending let's say even wi-fi because let's say you're using wi-fi at your place and you're like, well I use wi-fi at my house. That's how I you know stream youtube or Netflix whatever it is you like that's how I go on my favorite websites like Farmers only comm and all sorts of you know, what other weird websites you guys hang out on is that you want to save your money Do that by clicking on that visible wireless link Because you also have unlimited hot spot high speed data with that link You can cancel your wi-fi for where you live Maybe that's like 45 bucks 65 bucks a month. Whatever it is You could just say hey, I'm gonna come home when I pick up my little laptop like so right here I've got my laptop You can see it's hard to see because of my little blue the green screen effect. Yeah, there it is You can see it. So I have my little MacBook here as you can say hey I am going to Use my MacBook and watch Netflix or maybe you're going to use a tv Whatever it is that you like and you're like, you know, and I'm just going to connect it to my hot spot and I've got enough data to watch on my tv youtube or whatever it also does You can do that All the time and just completely cut out your wi-fi bill because if you're paying 45 or 65 bucks a month For wi-fi like who needs it rolling out Save that money use it on things that you like like diet a and w root beer Or maybe you want to spend it on you want to save up Save that 65 bucks a month put it toward a trip do a fun trip at the end of the year. Whatever it is I highly encourage you check out the link from visible wireless. I'm going to pin that at the top of the chat And I've got to tell you First thanks for coming by I see you there in the old live chat. Hamza. Ken. I see you there Thanks Batman Inc for being with us Glad to see you there sim kia happy to have you with us Folks i've got to tell you we're excited about the future We really are you've got a lot of big stuff. We're planning here at modern day debate I just met someone last week on zoom to talk about potential collaboration And we're really excited like there are just some big things that we're talking about with modern day debate And big things that i'm learning because I always want to learn I want to say hey How can we make modern day debate better? We're always trying to develop ourselves grow refine how we do things Have a better channel overall. I want to say cool thing is during the stream We actually crossed over from 175 to 176 thousand subscribers So I want to say thank you guys for your support. Seriously. It means More than you know We are excited Join us while we are small. This is just the beginning of our story at modern day debate We are providing a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field A lot of people will say Hey I'm all about fairness I'm all about I want everybody to have their shot to make their case. I'm neutral. You know, I'm unbiased They talk they talk but when it comes to walking the walk modern day debate Actually does it you can check out our links. We have debates on you name it whether or not big foot exists We have controversial debates on politics and people taking positions that like It's like pushing against the boundaries of youtube in terms of to s sometimes This isn't your grandma's debate channel. You know this folks if you're new here now, you know it because sometimes we do have topics that are pushing the envelope Not for the sake of pushing the envelope but because we want to walk the walk and Actually give everybody a fair chance even those flat earthers. I tell you what I gotta tell you I got a lot of friends That are flat earthers. I got a lot of friends that are globe earthers If you're like me, you think the planet is shaped like a banana. I don't know whatever you are We hope you feel welcome. We really do want to give everybody a fair shot So hey you say we're gonna let a thousand flowers bloom. We're gonna let the chips fall where they may We are going to have a truly fair debate channel and I can tell you folks Thanks to people like you and all of your support I can see the shares I check the analytics often the amounts of shares that we get on our videos is huge Thanks to people like you sharing it with friends who maybe you have a friend who likes a similar topic Because people usually are friends with people have common interests This is a great way of helping modern day debate Splanned expand its fair platform. You can share it with a friend or maybe a group of friends online Maybe you've got a reddit or you've got a twitter thread that you're a part of whatever it is You can share it there and we are excited because modern day debate is a barreling locomotive going down the tracks And no matter how many hurdles are in front of us We are just going to keep crushing them just keep going through them as this like I said is just the beginning of our Story modern day debate is going to do big things Join us as we are small Because someday we're going to look back at this stream and we're going to say wow That was back when modern day debate had crossed over 175 to 176 thousand subscribers Man, we're small back then compared to today. We are looking forward to a bright future We want to say thank you for being a part of that. Thank you for making this Exciting day crossing over to 176 thousand Appreciate that all over catwall in the live chat says before modern day debate I was a deplorable street urchin with no future prospects now I'm a despicable street urchin with a hobby jk. Love what you do james. Thanks all over for your support huge supporter long time supporter all over has been here For I think about five years like I think he's been with us since the very start I think he was here with us like when modern day debate really got its big Kind of like big first step. I don't know if you guys know what i'm talking about Uh, a lot of people are like You don't know that modern day debate to a large degree Was framed on A previous channel called non sequitur show now They would have a lot of interviews and stuff too and we were like well, we're gonna have it where it's just like cure debates It's going to be like literally the only way a position is presented on the channel as if there's an opposing side in the debate as well We wanted it that way and we had come from a channel like we're an adaptation of a channel called the non sequitur show That was also a live show that oftentimes did debates like it was common that they would do them So we do want to say uh, if you remember that if you've been around with us for that long That's about as long as it goes because I would say at that point we were around for maybe like That was like our eighth month when I remember when the non sequitur show Like kind of collapsed And what happened was people are like, whoa, it just collapsed and there's a fight and then we hosted a debate Interestingly, there's I can tell you this from having gone from, you know Uh, zero subscribers who were now we're at 176,000 And also having been in the youtube space for years watching other creators because I'm a modern day debate is such a it's central node and a huge network of people because Modern day debate depends on other people coming on right so I have watched many youtubers and they're you could say careers and Seeing that it's extremely rare for a youtuber to Start small and then boom just explode overnight that virtually never happens. There's only one person that's happened with That was because uh, alex stein had a twitter video that went viral. It got millions of views That was pretty like overnight type of success, but that's one out of like Everybody like all of the creators that we've had on here If you think of people like david wood that at one point had like 750,000 subs at his channel If you think about destiny who's got almost 750,000 subs now at his channel If you think about people like ap who's got like what 350,000 Is that all of those people it was incremental growth like these small steps and so We've had many small steps But one of our biggest steps probably the biggest step but nonetheless one of many many steps was then modern day debate We hosted a debate on the topic of the non sequitur show having this Basically battle this fight between their two hosts and steve Bless his heart and i'm actually meaning that sincerely and like not like a southern sarcastic thing steve mccray He at one point said hey He kind of knew that non sequitur show was like taking a beating uh and that basically like yeah by that i mean People were upset with kyle who was still in control of the non sequitur show And so steve mccray was like hey Everybody go subscribe to modern day debate follow them instead kind of what steve said and we had like 1500 subs Which a channel at our size at that time that was just ginormous and I was also like one of the biggest growth days We've ever had period. I think that was actually the biggest one still so but nonetheless And let's look at this if you do the math 1500 And that's out of 176,000 subs we have now That was only let's multiply it by 100 That was only 0.85 percent of our subs. So our biggest leap No, this is like youtube generally works like this our biggest leap didn't even get us one percent Like our biggest like single day was like 1500 subs in a single day We didn't even get us one percent that just shows you how incremental youtube is it really is a game of patience consistency Stick toitiveness, whatever you want to call it, but we want to say thank you for being here with us and supporting us It's just like a lot of things in life. It's like being fit like being active being like Strong or whatever it is that your goal is there. It's like personal finance. Oh my gosh personal finance Generally is that in my experience like It's just a matter of saving a little by little when you you know as much as you can And one way of saving is visible wireless guy said folks. What are you doing? I mean You could save not only because let's say you have Unlimited data text and calls plus unlimited hotspot data Which is a good deal. Let's say you got it and it's like 30 you're like, ah, james. Yeah, I'm at mint mobile I've got that for 35 or 30 bucks. Hey good for you But I mean you can save $10 a month If you switch over to visible Using our referral link. It's just 20 bucks a month the first 12 months Then you can even cancel your wi-fi at your house and you could save another let's say $55 so then you're saving $65 per month. Let's do the math 65 times 12 is 780 bucks Like that's a good chunk of cash. You can save just with this single switch It's amazing. So got to tell you I want to say thanks for being with us though I see they're in the old live chat. I want to say hello to you And want to say thank you guys for all of your support So first pete. I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for your support Joshua, thanks for your being with us. Thanks for your super chat there. I see that swampy poobs Hughes good to see you maricio chuman babadilla. Thanks for coming by Appreciate your being with us, buddy. He's actually you guys if you guys see maricio in the chat Uh, give him a huge prop give him a huge thanks a huge like hey way to go maricio Because maricio has transformed this channel So you guys I don't know if you've noticed but modern a debate has had like monstrous growth In the last few months a big reason for that Is and also like I'd say over the last year actually we've had like oh man How many subs did we gain in the last year? Let me look this up really quick Is that in the last 12 months? Uh, this is way more than we knew the last year has been like our biggest growth year We had 83 000 subscribers just in the last 12 months. So that just shows you like prior to that I think we usually got like 30 000 on average a year maricio was a big reason for that Credit to others as well, but I want to say maricio has been making us these epic shorts That have done so well in the algorithm and introduced so many new people to modern a debate So huge credit maricio fantastic, man You've done so well and I'm so grateful for all your help That 85 was like just crazy that modern day debate has just transformed in the last year Echo I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for being with us sim Hla, thanks for being with us. I think now I actually pronounced it right. Thanks for your patience with me My sister's keeper. Good to see you there again. Glad to have back. Mr. Kreenen Thanks for coming by anathema. Good to have you as well as hannah anderson Hurt and jungle jargon. Good to see you another another long time viewer jungle jargon and Exo music. Thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old live chat Hans Sevensson. Thanks for coming by. Glad to have you with us level earth. Thanks for dropping in Level earth says the flat earth got this channel to where it is. Just remember that Thanks for that. That's interesting Jerry Johnson says Let's see. Glad to have you here. Jerry cat. Thanks for coming by As well as Shloresh Fathi. Am I saying it right? Glad to have you with us. Alex Stirling. Glad to have you here As well as contrarian 420. Happy to have you with us. I appreciate you And let's see here Leo Whitmer. Glad to have you here. His message. Happy to have you with us. Kevin Howell. Thanks for being here Jerry Johnson. Glad to have you quick and happy to have you here. Chad dad. Thanks for dropping in Want to say thanks everybody I'm gonna let you go in just a moment as I'm gonna rest a little bit I'm gonna see I can't I felt like I thought I heard thunder. Is that supposed to be rain on the According to the weather forecast, but I don't know I could have sworn I heard thunder and wind I want to say thanks for coming by You guys make this fun. Thanks for all your support of modern day debate. It means more than you know We're excited about the future next debate this Sunday So that's less than 48 hours away If you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as you don't want to miss the debates that are coming out at this channel Because it's gonna be amazing I want to say thanks everybody. Love you. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and we'll see you at the next debate