 Good evening and welcome to episode 289 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Uzaman Dunwoa Kumailo. It's a Thursday edition of the Private Property Podcast. If you join us for the first time, welcome to it. This is a prerecorded interview that I'm having with our guests this evening. And this evening we're going to be looking at what are the laws and procedures regarding residential evictions. But before we get to it, of course, if you are joining us for the first time, make sure that you go to our Facebook and our YouTube pages to catch up on all the great content that we've already brought to your screens. And to all our regular viewers, welcome back. You know how we do it every single weekday. You and I have an appointment at 7 p.m. Where I tackle a hot property topic with an expert guest who helps us navigate our property journey. Doesn't matter where you are in the property value chain or certainly where you are in your property journey. This is a show that helps you along the way. It's the first of July, it's the second half of the year. I want to find out from you what are your property goals for the rest of the year. And how have your property goals from the beginning of the year been so far? Because I think this is now a good time to reflect on what has worked in the first half of the year. What hasn't worked, what you did right, what you didn't do right. And of course, how you can better certainly some of your systems and habits to make sure that you make your property dreams come true. But to get us started with our conversation this evening, I'm joined by somebody who hasn't been on the show before. And before I introduce him, of course, you can look forward to other shows across private properties, social media pages. I am talking about the farming podcast as it is a Thursday that you can catch later on this evening with award-winning farmer Unbar Linwogo. And that comes to your screens every Tuesdays and Thursdays. So if you've got an interest in farming agriculture, then that certainly is the show that you want to tune into. And every Mondays and Fridays, Chad takes us through amazing properties that you can find on www.privateproperty.co.zaire. And of course, gives us a good taste of what we can expect in the property market. And on Wednesdays, Esti Klassen brings you the first time home buyers show, which is always in conversation with people who've walked that property journey and have gone on to grow their property portfolio from strength to strength. So if you want to get a sense of how they did it, then that certainly is the show for you to tune into. Those are the shows that you can look forward to every single weekday at 8 p.m. here on the private property social media pages. Well, to get us started, as I said earlier, I want to find out from you. It's the first of July. I want to hear from you. What are your property goals for the rest of the year? But also, how are you doing with the goals that you set for yourself at the beginning of the year? Do share with us down below. We're going to keep this conversation going on our social media pages, especially because this is a pre-recorded interview. Well, to help us better understand what the laws and procedures regarding evictions, residential evictions, this evening, I'm joined by Lea Adharah, who's a director at Adharah Incorporated. Lea, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Thank you so much. I'm a tumba. It's so nice to see you, and it's so nice to be here for the first time. It's only such a pleasure. I think I already know that we're probably going to call on your legal expertise in the future. So we're looking forward to having you back on the show already. I think let's actually just get into it because I am in a number of, for example, different WhatsApp groups to eight different landlords and even property investors are in and even on WhatsApp. I think one of the scary things that you tend to see across these groups, whether it's WhatsApp or Facebook, is that oftentimes your landlord will tell on themselves around some of the essentially illegal things that they do where their tenants are concerned. And it often comes when, of course, maybe a tenant hasn't been paying rent for a number of months. And what a landlord does in order to get that tenant out. And I can already tell you now, it's all kinds of illegal activity. And I want us to get into then how do we go about evicting tenants, but before we even get to eviction laws and procedures, let's look at what happens prior to getting to that stage. Because I think eviction is almost at the late stage of a residential dispute. I'd say that where your tenant hasn't been paying. But obviously, we want to, as much as possible, curb it prior to that. We don't want to have to get to evictions, especially during this period. So what would typically happen in the event where your tenants, especially today, it's the 1st of July, so a lot of landlords are expecting that rental payment from their tenants and their tenants, when close of business comes, they still haven't paid rent today. What should a landlord do as far as the law and what is legally permissible is concerned? Zaman Tugwa, you've raised a few very relative and important questions, sorry, relevant questions and points, because I've seen those comments on Facebook, landlord groups or property owner groups, and we'll have to deal with those just now. I think the first question that's most pertinent is today is the 1st of July. Can't believe it is, but it is. And the question is, my tenant's supposed to pay today, obviously. In terms of the lease agreement, generally speaking, the rentals due on and before the 1st of the month. You pay it in advance for the month, effectively. Now, today passes and I don't see the payment in my bank account. The loan bills go off every now and then, I start swarrying even more so in the sense of the time which we live. But generally speaking, you expect the money in your bank account, that's the landlord's expectations. What happens if it's not in there today is tomorrow morning, the landlord gets very upset, phones the tenant, perhaps enters into some sort of verbal dispute or disagreement with them. It escalates very quickly, emotions run high and then the gloves are off. My first advice there is to avoid that situation altogether. I've written many articles on it by no means and please don't misunderstand me. I'm a tenant's attorney, I'm a landlord's attorney, but that being said, I also believe in fairness from both sides. I've written articles on that too. I've written articles about everything we'll be speaking about because it's something that permeates with me and it enters my mind often in what I do. So for the last 11 years I've been handling matters almost exclusively for landlords once in a while for a tenant. What I can say, there's three crucial points that every landlord and tenant has to enter into when they consider a relationship between each other. Number one is respect. You have to respect each other's needs and desires. Number two is good communication and number three is fairness. So I'll deal with all of them, but when it comes to understanding each other and expectations, the landlord expects the tenant to pay up front. The tenant expects to be in the premises. So long as they both comply with the lease agreement, there shouldn't be any issues, but life happens to everyone, to tenants, to landlords. And what we need to then move on to is respecting each other, understanding each other's position, and communicating openly, transparently, and fairly. So what that means is if I'm a tenant and I cannot pay you on the first day of the month, for whatever reason, and right now it's most relevant is someone, heaven forbid, has lost their job. The first thing they should do as a tenant is phone the landlord. I said, landlord, I've just lost my job. I've got savings, so I'll be able to pay you this month, for example. But next month I'm in trouble, I don't have any income. That open communication and transparent communication goes a long way as a tenant to at least speak to the landlord and get their expectations right. So the worst thing you can do as a tenant in my mind is not communicate, but you get in the sand and hope for the best. Landlords then have an opportunity at least, the very least, to consider a tenant's position and say, thank you, Mr. Tenant or Mrs. Tenant, for letting me know about your position. I appreciate that you'll be using your savings to pay this month's rental, and next month, bearing in mind that you are not earning an income. We need to make a decision together as a team as to how we'll approach the situation. It may be that the landlord asks the tenant, and I don't think it would be so reasonable to move out and move into a family member for argument's sake, as opposed to staying in a premises which they could not longer afford. Alternative to that, of course, is to discuss a payment plan, saying, okay, look, you're not going to be employed for the next month, maybe three months, we're not sure. Let's work on something, let's maybe reduce the rental by a little bit, but your claw back, which just means you'll pay back over time. There's certainly different options available to landlords and tenants, but it all goes back to the three points I mentioned earlier. You've got to communicate early, you've got to communicate openly, transparently, and you have to respect and be fair to each other. And I think one of the things, Leah, that I actually want us to explore a bit later on is what active steps can a tenant take. And you've already started pointing out what a tenant could potentially do, especially when they see that they're not going to be able to make rent. And more often than not, we probably aren't able to make rent not on the first. You already know probably a week before the first, especially if it's something related to work or losing your job. And in the event where there's a big financial responsibility that came on from when you got paid, let's say for example, you got paid on the 20th or the 25th, and something financially really big came, perhaps an emergency. And these things happen, as Leah points out, that life does happen. And you know that you need to dip into what would typically be allocated as your rental money. As soon as that decision is made and that payment is made, it is important for a tenant to then communicate with their landlord as soon as possible, as opposed to waiting for the first to come and go and waiting for the landlord to then contact them. But we're going to deal with that later on in our conversation there. I want just to still stay on then what landlords can and cannot do. And let's first start with what they can't do. Because I think this is one of those things, as you said, you've also seen these comments in a lot of these groups. And different landlords are sharing, unfortunately, some of the illegal things that they're doing in order to deal with non-paying tenants. What are some of the things that we absolutely cannot do as landlords, they're illegal. And really, I think if anything, if tenants had the legal muscle and even the financial means, they could probably take that particular landlord to task. All right. As I'm going to go, what I'll tell you is an anecdote to ask, speaking anecdotes often, funny enough. But so you'll forgive me, hopefully, and so will your viewers. We put up a post on an advert on our social media page, you know, Hadarian Corporate Property Law Specialists. We put it on and our social media partners then went on and advertised it. So it reaches a lot more people, many more landlords in South Africa. And the results were very interesting. Number one, one landlord called to ask for help. But all that happened is as a result of the advert, it became a bit of, actually, unfortunately, fueled the unhappy landlord side of things. And all these different landlords, or they said there were landlords or property owners, went on to the post and started commenting about the different ways that they handle their unruly tenants. So immediately, and off the bat, there was a disrespect for the tenants. Now, I understand these landlords in particular had been burned in the past. Potentially by their tenants, by bad people, because I believe good people make a plan, and I'll deal with that a bit later. But let's pull the tenants who took chances and took advantage of the landlord. So I understand where they were coming from, but this thing escalated very quickly into advice from employing tattooed bikers to taking the doors off for what they call maintenance. And it's very common. Everything I'm saying to you would have heard before, you wouldn't have read before. It repeats itself. But for me, the anecdote is, you know, we put up a post on how approach property law specialists and the next thing, the comments were about taking unlawful steps. So to answer your question simply, what can you not do as a landlord? You cannot unlawfully evict a tenant. We've got the rental housing act, which regulates the relationship between the landlord and the tenant. And I must say, even though I'm a landlord's attorney and I am biased with landlords, there are certain provisions in that act which protect the interests of justice, number one. And number two fairness, because there are opportunities and situations where landlords and tenants should be speaking as opposed to defaulting straight away to the aggressive side of things. I'm not saying it's after six months, you can do as much patience. I'm saying there's a time and place for discussions and being fair to each other. It's number one, you cannot unlawfully evict anyone. In fact, in terms of the rental housing act, and it's a criminal offence. So you need to be very careful. In fact, you should never do it. And then let's be honest, that it should never happen to anyone, no matter how frustrated you are, because there is a reason for the law and there's a reason why we have to follow it. And again, I don't want to sound unsympathetic to a landlord. I am landlord biased, but I'm also biased towards fairness, more biased towards fairness. You cannot remove doors. You cannot cut electricity. It's for the spoliation of the tenants' rights in terms of the lease agreement or otherwise. In fact, you don't even have to have a bad lease agreement at that point. But I'm not going to go into an academic and technical argument or discussion. Yeah, I want to talk practically from the ground and from my experience with landlords and tenants. You cannot mistreat tenants. You cannot intimidate them. You cannot harass them. I can mistle for maybe another 25 things, but we all know the major ones are unlawfully evicting, spoliating them by, you know, not allowing them into the premises by cutting the electricity or water supply and certainly not harassment and intimidation. And I think, Lea, those are so important to note, especially because everything that you've listed there, I've seen people in different landlords' groups saying that they've done those things and were essentially successful in getting rid of, and I say getting rid of because that's the language that they use of their tenants from their premises. And it's just so important as landlords to rather make sure that you put in the right provisions, have the right systems in place to deal with nonpaying tenants as opposed to resorting to illegal activity. Because as Lea points out, you know, it is a criminal offense, and I think the unfortunate thing is more often than not, tenants typically wouldn't know how to go about whether, you know, opening a case against their landlord in the event where, you know, something like that is done. And I think that's probably the only, I'll say, saving grace for those particular landlords. I want to find out from you at home as we kickstart the first of July and the second half of the year, how your property goals are going. I think earlier on in the year, I asked you what your property goals for 2021 were, how are you in achieving your property goals for the year ahead, and also what are your goals for the remainder of 2021? We've had six months to adjust to this different way of living, which has really become our norm, and also adjust some of our goals and expectations. Especially where our property journey is concerned. So how have you readjusted some of your goals when it comes to all things relating to property? Now, Liyad, I think we've looked at what landlords should avoid doing, and not even avoid what they should not do because it's not legal for them to do so. What can they then do in the event where they're dealing with a tenant who is a non-paying tenant, and it may have been that they moved in, were able to pay, let's say it's a 12-month lease, they were able to pay the first two months or three months, and then start defaulting on their rental, and what should be the thing that you do as of tomorrow in the event where, for example, you haven't received your rent, and this is, let's assume it's the first month, because as you're saying, I think not many people are going to wait until month six, and if anything, you shouldn't be waiting until month six without communicating with your tenants. So what are the things that landlords can do that are within the legal parameters? Okay, so number one, communicate, and communication doesn't just mean legal process, but first and foremost, send a letter of demand. There's templates out there which are freely available to anyone. I don't particularly advocate for someone to go to an attorney and spend 450 round a letter of demand. I think that's unnecessary, but I do believe there's a time and place for a set. Number one, if you don't know, if you're unsure of your terms of your lease and you need a professional to help you go to an attorney, that's fine, but if you can do it yourself, and you can ensure proper compliance with your lease agreement, send a letter of demand out on that very second day after rent or was due to the second calendar day, generally speaking, in terms of all lease agreements. I'm obviously talking about residential leases today in particular. We service clients from the biggest reeds, the smallest single property owners, but the principle is always the same, is on the second day after rent or is due, I would send a letter of demand out. Now, with regards to good communication, it doesn't just mean send a letter out and hope for the best, it means send a letter out and then phone the tenant. And phone the tenant to have an honest conversation that's not aggressive, it doesn't need to be. It can just be a matter of fact, it doesn't need to be overly synthetic, it doesn't need to be overly cold. It can be a matter of fact, you are in arrears, I'm concerned about my rights as a landlord. I had to send a letter of demand out because I have to protect my interests. If you pay within seven days, depending on the lease of course, or within 20 business days of residential lease, or depending on the wording, I will not issue a summons against you and I will not cancel your lease. So please remember your breach. I'm finding that tone is the fairest way to go. I'm sure there'll be many naysayers, especially ones who commented on our adverts who said a letter of demand and worth of paper to return on and it'll be used for fire or whatever the case may be. I'm just saying that's fine, but make sure you follow your processes or legal processes. You may want to go an unlawful route, you may be eating to do it. That's up to you. I don't advocate for it. I don't believe in it. I believe it can get you a lot of trouble. You said something very interesting earlier as a Mantuga where you said that it takes that to the landlord's benefit. A lot of tenants don't know their legal rights and can't afford to go to lawyers. What if your tenant is the one that manages to get the legal help or go to the legal aid and then actually pursue you for what you've done unlawfully to him or her. So you need to be very careful and that's why as a default say, follow your lease agreement. Thereafter communicate. You'll find out very quickly whether you're dealing with the reasonable tenant or not. So I'll give you two examples, reasonable or unreasonable. Reasonable tenant says, Mr Landon or Mrs Landon, I'm so sorry. I actually did pay, it hasn't cleared yet. Mr Landon, I'm so sorry. I don't have the money right now. Within the next two to three days, it'll be there, right? That's reasonable. Unreasonable tenant doesn't answer the phone, ignores the letter of demand or takes it all and is rude or says to you, it's too bad, you're a landlord, you're wealthy, you're like the banks, all these misconceptions that people have about landlords and go ahead and sue me because I know how long it takes. I know it's impossible to get a residential eviction. All the misconceptions that everyone believes in, if they don't know what they're doing, legally speaking. So my advice is, send the letter of demand out immediately. And I think Lea, let's deal then with what the next tips would be in the event where you're dealing with an unreasonable tenant because I think this obviously is particularly applicable to landlords who find themselves having those unreasonable tenants because as you say, with the majority of tenants, nobody wants to not pay their rent, nobody's looking to stay in a place, certainly nobody wants to be harassed by their landlord, whether it is via text or WhatsApps or calls or letters of demand. And more often than not, in these situations, as you pointed out, is that there's something that's happened. In other instances where, one of my tenants was a month where something had happened with their bank account, I think that some fraudulent activity had happened and their bank were alerted, he alerted his bank about the matter and they were dealing with it and they weren't going to fully resolve it before rent was due. And he already just told me sort of the previous month around probably like the 27th, 28th, that listen, I had been having this issue with my bank account rent is going to be three days late, they've given me like a, you know, a, we're going to resolve this by next time. And so I knew not to, you know, worry that he's suddenly not paying rent for some other reason. So things like that become so important because tenants also do play an active role in sometimes communicating. I think that's a big thing for tenants in the event where you find yourself where life happens, especially right now, be proactive. And if you're just sending that WhatsApp, communicate with your landlord, try to get it on text as much as possible, as opposed to, you know, on phone call. I prefer once, you know, my tenant has called or I call them, you put it on email, just so we both also have a record of the conversation that we've had and we're both on the same page about whatever agreement we come to. So I think that's an important thing for tenants that you can take that active step in the event where you can see something has happened, you're not going to make rent and you don't want to create any, you know, unease when it comes to your relationship with your landlord. But yeah, then there are unfortunately unreasonable tenants, as you've said, those who are like, you sue me, you can try and evict me, I know how difficult evictions typically can be. Then what becomes the next step, the next legal step that a landlord can take in the event where they're dealing with an unreasonable tenant. Okay, so number one is I'm going to just give you another story. People often ask me how I sleep at night, bearing in mind that we eviction specialists try and and I said, look, but for the stress of COVID and everything else and running a firm with, you know, a number of people in our team and worrying about everyone's health and happiness, I sleep quite well at night on an ethical moral level because I mean this hand and heart, we've never evicted a good, honest person. And I'll explain to you why. Good honest tenants speak to you. They make plans, they make arrangements. It may not be a payment arrangement, I understand it. If a landlord came to me tomorrow and said, my tenants just told me they've lost their job, they cannot pay, I'd say, and I know it's painful, give them a month to leave and find alternative accommodation. Let them sort out the money later on. The reason I say that is once you go legal and yes, we will get you the eviction water, it's going to cost you quite an amount of money, especially if you're in the lower end of salary, sorry, rental, with your rights to a tenant if they're in the lower S&M, you need to be very mindful of legal costs. So if you apply your mind and again, this is a country to law firms, businesses, I'm giving a pass to avoid legal costs and law firms, but I mean it practically. If you're able to give a reasonable tenant a month to find alternative accommodation and they have an agreement that they will leave and later on sort out their rears, use the best place position as a landlord because the alternative is to fight, go to court, rent a house in tribunals, it rolls into a number of months, one month becomes two, becomes three, they'll get your eviction water, they'll come at a cost. So again, to just talk about reasonable tenants, we genuinely, I do not believe in the many evictions we've done for the last 11 years, we've evicted a reasonable person. We've made so many good arrangements between parties, neither have been happy, which is the old cliches that considerance is that neither party is happy, but it's much better than going all the way through the legal process. So I encourage that discussion and you said earlier with the tenant, you said, I've got this issue, how to resolve it. Even more so actually in your scenario, what I would say to that reasonable tenant about the issue of the bank is just provide proof. You know, it's one thing telling a story, just substantiate it. Send the communication between the bank and yourself to your landlord, say, here it is, here's the proof. As a reasonable landlord, you should then accept it because you've seen the proof of it and then you'd be a bit more patient. So now to move on to the unreasonable tenants. The next legal steps, obviously, what's the letter of demand inspired is in that 20 business days, generally in respect of very residential premises because of the CDA, Consumer Protection Act, you can then cancel the lease. That's the next letter you need to send out. Again, I'll repeat my advice. Try avoid legal fees if you can, but none of the cost of doing it improperly or in a way that's going to harm your legal process. So if you can do it, there is a template that you've got that you know is correct. Send that cancellation out. Generally speaking, what that cancellation says is you receive notice in ex-date, you fail to remedy your breach from 20 business days, I hear about giving notice of cancellation of your lease agreement. That's the next step in the legal process. And I think the unfortunate thing, as you're saying Liat, is we do get the unreasonable tenants and often they also know that a lot of landlords don't have the financial muscle to afford legal fees that comes with an eviction order and the eviction process. So some of them count on that in particular. So I think as landlords, it also just does go to when you were vetting your tenant in the beginning, how well were you vetting your tenant? Did you verify, for example, whether they are previous landlords? Did you get a sense of their payment pattern? I think those are some of the things that you're supposed to do, some of the due diligence that you should do from the onset so that you know that you trust your quality control system and in the event where that gets right, then you're unlikely to get a bad tenant or an unreasonable tenant. Think of anything, you may have one that is proactive as we keep pointing out. Now, Liat, I want us to then look at what... Firstly, let's just address the issue of cost because I think this is one of those things that I know landlords, especially those who haven't had an eviction process before, thankfully, because I think no landlord wants to go through that, no tenant wants to go through that either. What kinds of costs are we looking at in the event where you now know that you're sitting with an unreasonable tenant and you want to take legal steps to remove them from your property? Okay, so firstly, I'll go on to the old school cliché, the Tunis, and I'm a new age attorney, but they always say how long is a piece of street, right? And that's fine. That's a wonderful kind of answer. They teach us, not even in law school, but in articles. That's how you answer clients. I don't agree with that. I think you've got to be a bit more robust than the standard ages in the Tunis and as a property owner's partner, you've got to be upfront about it. We in our firm, and I don't know how every other firm works it, we've got a set fee structure. And it's really easy, you can go to our website, www.hadariink, it's H-A-D-A-R-I-M-C, that's here today. We've got options there for corporate clients and for individual clients. You click on private or individual clients and there's infographics there, not only explaining the processes for you, but the commitment to costs for the entire process. Because our firm personally is a younger, we're on 436, yeah, but a younger law firm owner in a more modern law firm that the worst is the uncertainty with costs, right? Give you an example again. If you were flying as I went to Cape Town for work or actually for pleasure, let's use your examples. Not now, obviously, but when it's safe to do so. You get on the flight and they said it, well, when you try a book, they say you don't worry about paying right now. Just get on the flight, enjoy the flight, and we'll speak when you land. So you get on the flight, you have a wonderful flight and you really enjoyed it and it got you to where you wanted. So A to B, you get there, you land in Cape Town, they say, great, if we're here for playing, he has your bill. And you say, okay, you've got a certain expectation in your mind a flight to Cape Town, he stays $1,500, produce some good specials out there at the moment, you land and they say, you're great, it's $8,750 already. And your eyes almost pop out and you say, hang on a second, I didn't agree to that, right? I never would have flown to Cape Town. If you had told me, it would have cost me $8,750 to fly from A to B, I would have driven, I would have flown some other airline, whatever the case may be. So I always find the legal fees are similar to that example. You get to the end of it and you get these unexpected surprises by way of invoices. And the one thing we try to eradicate in this firm, and I think it's a good thing for most orphans to do, especially when it comes to something like an eviction application, which is, you know what you're doing, you've built your processes for it, it's not rocket-sized. With all due respect to every property lawyer, myself included and my team. You know how much time you need to spend on unopposed evictions. So we've got a set structure, you can go look it on the website. We commit to that fee, that is it. You know, it sets it out for you, whether it takes us 25 phone calls to the sheriff to make sure he serves the eviction or one, you get charged the same. So you don't get disadvantage or prejudice by the fact that the sheriff's not doing his job and we have to chase him up and no disrespect to the sheriff just using that as an example. And so there's a commitment to fees there and I think that's, it should be the bare minimum. When you're looking to evict someone, you commit, you get a law firm that commits to a fee, a fee structure and then you know what to expect and you know how to budget it all in before it. To answer your question directly, there's a wide range of firms out there that charge different amounts. There aren't that many specialists in evictions. So number one, my advice is to go to property law specialists. There are a number of them, but not every law firm. Number two, once you establish they are experts and what they do and they will be able to get you an eviction order, you can check out the different prices and you know, it's like buying TVs. There's the cheapest one, there's the most expensive one, it's one down the middle. You decide which one you want, you decide which one is within your budget and you go with them. So the range would generally be for an unopposed eviction between I would say 15,000 rounds to 35,000 rounds. And I think that then gives us a great sense, certainly for viewers at home who didn't know how the structure could typically be. So you've now got a good sense of the range. I think if you want to certainly find out from how to incorporate it, we have shared their website details down here below. So you can check out their free structure and where you know what you're going to pay for in the beginning. I love the analogy that you used in the yard around when we get on a plane, we already know how much it is because we've paid for it as opposed to being told when you get to your destination that actually this is the amount that you're going to pay. Before I wrap up with you, I think one last thing I want you to look at is and you spoke about this that more often than not, people are able to get into arrangements with their landlord in the event where they cannot make rent. And I'm thinking of it especially now as we're in the middle of a third wave and we don't quite know what the economic effects of this third wave are going to be when we saw different kinds of payment plans being made when we're in the early days of lockdown and even when we're in the second wave and I think the longer we're living in a COVID world, the more everybody's obviously frustrated but also the more even landlords are like, look, this is not the way of life. And I was understanding in the beginning I now don't have the financial capacity to be understanding because I think that's also the other side of the coin that in as much as in the early days there were landlords who were saying you can stay one month free for example and they made all kinds of arrangements with tenants who weren't able to make their payments. Perhaps share with us some of the different kinds of arrangements a landlord and a tenant can make just to give both parties some ideas on how they can try and meet each other halfway especially in the event where the tenant still wants to stay in the place and they will be able to probably pay let's say in the next two months or in the next three months as opposed to for example somebody who's lost their job and they're very uncertain about where their next income is going to come from or how they're going to move forward. Okay, so there's a few ways of dealing with it. Number one, if it's the end of the road so your tenant has been an unreasonable tenant throughout this process and I don't mean unreasonable always in the way of they didn't want to pay. I'm talking about the guys who just outright refused. Those tenants, for me, you take legal action and you proceed. There's no discussion to be had there. The third way only is kind of a funnel mail in the coffin for those bad tenants that strung you along for a while. The reasonable tenants who have potentially not had cash flow problems or lost their jobs which is obviously a terrible thing and I'm so sympathetic towards it even as a landlord's attorney I believe you should chat about it. I think that they've got to look at their savings if they've got any because the roof of your head is the most important thing right now, right? Now there's also that misconception the landlord is like a bank but it's no different for me walking to Woolworths taking a trolley full of goods, walking out and when security stops we say, what do you do here? You say, wait, hang on, Woolworths have so much money. What's the difference to that? People have a misconception and landlords are like that and I'm talking from the biggest reeds who may have larger cash supplies but they've got shareholders to account to to the smallest one-man, one-property sole owners who... One woman or one woman, one property? One woman, sorry, forget one man more importantly one woman property owners so you've got to understand their point of view and say this landlord does not have unlimited cash supplies the bank's knocking on his or her door and they need to pay their bonds and whatever the expenses they have so at that point you sit down and hopefully safely across the table or virtually or just speak on the phone and the tenant then says okay I've got certain savings I don't want to deplete all of them but let me tap into it and let me give you something as a reasonable tenant to buy myself some more time right, I think that's the best case not of everyone let's even discuss a reduced number that at least covers majority of the landlords out of pocket disbursements it's one thing you know the property of your rent which not all landlords do but they're not being out of pocket and potentially losing your property that's unacceptable for any landlord and I don't think any tenants can expect that of their landlord so number one is to discuss it openly transparently and honestly I know it's very daunting but share your private information for landlords show them how much money you have in reserve a lot of people keep their cards close to their chest and try getting an advantage as a tenant when they've got $50,000 in the bank that's not fair if my rent is $7,000 in a month I can't afford it because I've lost my job but I've got $50,000 worth of savings surely I should be tapping into that as a reasonable tenant and making a plan maybe I can't pay the full amount because I am worried about my future but something make that $5,000 or $7,000 and then build up a little bit of an additional amount which you'll pay off over a number of months that to me is a reasonableness and that's what I encourage landlords and tenants to do together Liyal, as we wrap up this evening I see that we are running slightly out of time I want to find out from you last tip particularly for landlords because I think they're the ones who often want to find they'll call it creative ways of dealing with non-paying tenants but their attitude is it's illegal ways of dealing with non-paying tenants final tips for landlords when it comes to dealing with non-paying tenants and also a final tip for tenants in terms of dealing with a landlord who's using illegal means to to evict them from their property I'll start with the tenant side first because I am landlord biased but I am as I said earlier interest of justice more biased so as a tenant if you are being treated unreasonably or unlawfully go to a rental house in Tribunal like you complained there it's not fair I mean I understand landlords as I say are sympathisers much more because that's what I that's the side of the table I'm on really but I don't want to ask for any unreasonable landlord who just takes those doors and unlawfully evicts people especially you know the particular people are supposed to be predicted by the PI Act so those kind of vulnerable individuals women-headed households to save the people the elderly families with minors go to the rental house in Tribunal urgently get some advice there larger complaint open the case there number one if you're being harassment intimidated or anything unlawful that you shouldn't be feeling regardless the fact that you cannot pay your rent for one month or two you can go to the police station and lay criminal charges of harassment and intimidation now that's the as much advice you'll get from me for tenants ever now moving to landlords landlords and you said something so so relevant earlier as I'm going to go out which is about vetting vetting for me we can use we need another half an hour to speak about vetting but they took tenants properly I spoke to one of my major weed clients this week and we spoke by strategically how we're going to move forward as they grow probably the biggest residential fund in the country and we spoke about the strength of vetting they actually told me they recently have rejected so many applications because off the bat they could see that those tenants couldn't afford the rental now they're actually being fair to both and it's a horrible feeling being rejected but they're being fair to both parties because as a tenant you put yourself under pressure if you financially cannot afford that rental currently and you hope that things change and as a landlord you're going to suffer in two or three months time when they get into areas immediately almost you know so vetting is huge I urge you to vet so prevention is better than cure vetting is huge you can read articles that I've written others have written about it we can discuss it potentially next time my number one tip is vet number two tip is communicate quickly swiftly on the first day after rentals due send a letter out it's not an act of war it's good process it's good business practice send a letter to demand and then immediately call the tenants they're right letters there you've got seven days in terms of if I'm on issue someone's against you or 20 business days before I cancel let's talk let's force the issue let's be reasonable with each other let's be fair and let's conclude an arrangement here Lia that's a great place to leave it at I'm already going to promise our viewers that we're going to bring you back to explore vetting and best practices for vetting tenants because I think it is one of those things that landlords sometimes typically tend to struggle with or don't have a system in place to make sure that they get quality tenants yeah it was so great to have you at the show I know we're going to be having you back we're definitely bringing you back to talk all things vetting thank you so much for joining us this evening thank you so much and that is Lia Harder who's a director at Harder Incorporated and if you want to get in touch with them we have shared their content details down here below and that brings us to the end of this Thursday edition of the Private Property Podcasts I've been your host it's a Thursday so at 8 p.m. you can look forward to award winning farmer Mba Linuoka on the farming podcast until then hoping you're staying home and staying safe