 in the previous episode. I don't think this is sustainable. I don't think this is some sort of sustainable activism. They scream when they're getting lowered into the gas. They scream when they're in the trucks. They scream when they're in the holding pen. This is probably the worst I've felt before a speech ever. For anything to manifest, you have to believe it's possible first. You just can never predict the outcome of these things. You never catch me making a video about criticising someone else's activism. Unless that activism involves telling people that there's a moral way to consume animal products by free range, high welfare meat, that crap. That there should be criticised because that makes people cut... You're basically telling people to exploit and kill animals in a humane way. That's not vegan activism though. There's a fire inside your heart. Let it light up the world. Yeah. Well, I think a vegan world would include animal rights. Like they are human rights. If human rights are violated, then they... What do they do? They arrest people for violating human rights. There's murder laws against murder. So if they brought them in for animals as well, that would be good. I don't think it would stop all at once. We still murder each other, don't we? Even though there's laws. But it would just mean there would be laws to protect animal rights. I think animal... If we brought in proper animal rights, that would be... We'd have animal rights before we'd have a vegan world. I don't even think like... That would be more of a thing to strive for. That animals have rights. What did they say? In California, there's a new legislation act which changes the rights of the animals which are in animal agriculture and stuff like that. Welfare? That's not right. Yeah, it is, but... That's not animal rights. That's animal welfare. So that doesn't change their right. But California development is coming every year further and further. Do you think it's a good way to change the step by step? No. I think what it does is it promotes high welfare meat. So when you say to someone, look, this animal was treated nice before you ate their body, they're going to be comfortable with eating them. I think it's a problem. I don't think we should torture animals. I think less torture is good. I don't think the welfare movement is helpful as helpful as they claim it is. But at the same time, the direction everywhere there exposes the whole foods as they are talking about human meat and stuff like that. I don't think that's vegan activism. You don't? No, well, it's not. It's saying, look, whole foods are claiming that they got high welfare meat, but it's not high welfare meat. So what is that sending the message that it should be high welfare meat? But they are exposing them because they lie also about that. Would you feel comfortable if whole foods did have high welfare meat? No, of course I wouldn't, but it's better to argue on the internet to do something in the streets. I don't think we should fight for high welfare meat and I think it's a problem. So you don't fight for happy slavery and I think certain types of activism promote happy slavery. But somehow you need to promote and give greater rights to the animals in according to the legislation. It's not giving them rights. One fundamental right, which is the right not to be treated as a product. That's all they need. Of course, but I'm talking about the law and about the state of the... It's giving them welfare guidelines. Yes, some of it. But it could be a way to create the rights which could in the future say... Evidence? You need evidence, so you need to prove that that's going to happen. They've been animal welfare for a long time now. Bigger cages. Get rid of the cages. Put the chickens in sheds instead of cages. And all it gives them is a label to say these are cage-free eggs. And then your parents go to the store and they go, hmm, I don't want the cage eggs. I want to buy the cage-free eggs, which, you know, it's not a moral choice. Yeah, it's true. But some... For example, the animal defendants here in this country which have banned the fur farms, for example, by law last year, and this year they are aiming for banning the circus animals are also focusing on free-range change. Do you support free-range? I support the change of the view of the consumers to animals because they start to think about their rights... So you support free-range? I support the initiative to bring more rights to animals. Well, we're different people. I would never... Yeah, I would never support free-range murder because they all... I just support more rights to the animals. It's not a right. It's higher welfare. Then people become comfortable. If you're a vegan and you support or you say, yeah, we should fight for free-range animals, you're sending a very confusing message. You're sending the message that exploitation can be done in a humane way and that we should be comfortable and strive morally for animals to be taken out of cages more than they should have rights. And we are getting back to the people who are closed who don't see any rights for the animals at the moment and who don't even consider veganism as a way of... I've turned thousands of people vegan. Yeah, I would say... If I was like... If I fought for free-range, I'd be funding their industry for them. Funding the chicken industry. Free-range. I wouldn't be as effective as an activist when you can turn people vegan. I don't think that it's impossible. You can, unlike we talk, some people are not ready to be changed at the moment. Yeah, I think if you were an animal, I wouldn't fight for you to be a free-range animal. I would fight for you to have rights and to have a consistent vegan message. I wouldn't want you to be put in a slaughterhouse. I wouldn't want you to be viewed as a product. Right. The values are the same. Just the road to get there is a bit hard for the rest of the world. If we all sang the same tune... If we all sang the same tune of animals aren't products. Animals aren't products. I think it would be less confusing. Yeah, we're doing it. But some people are closed. I know what the welfare movement does. I see vegans who also do animal welfare as well. I personally won't. Out of principle. Out of principle. I think it's in the trail. Me too. It's easy to say that something is betrayal when the animals suffer less. I have a friend who raised turkeys. He said he gets good life and everything. They're butchered. They're butchered in a slaughterhouse. Yeah, they are. I know it's bad. But do I want them to suffer more or not? No, we don't. We liberate animals with veganism. We liberate them. And if we go, we are standing against your industry, what are they going to do? Oh my God, we've got eyes on us now. They're going to tighten everything up, aren't they? They're probably going to bring in... But that's your assumption. They're bringing welfare guidelines the more we push them for veganism anyway. You know what I mean? Not because we told them to. Obviously, if they go, oh my God, these vegans are pushing us. They've got footage of how disgusting our farm is. And they're sharing that. Our message when we take that footage from the disgusting farm is go vegan. It's not go free range. It's not get them out of those cages. It's look how disgusting this farm is. Let's go vegan. And then they go, oh my God, our farm has been exposed. And then they tighten up the welfare guidelines. They decided to do that. We don't want you to tighten up welfare guidelines. We want you to torture the animals. Of course not. They tighten up the welfare guidelines. But not because we said free range is a moral choice or sent the message that somehow free range is a moral thing to do for people. Our message is always go vegan. Yeah, exactly. But it's still the problem of developing the people who are getting more and more polarized in the society as the vegan movement is growing. The number of people who are basically against it is growing also. And I see it. I also know people who are like that and who feel there is something like a fascist. That's the problem. How do I reach to these people? I play with them for example. If we all advocate veganism in different ways, you don't advocate like me. He doesn't advocate like me. Social background is completely different. But all I'm saying, if we are all singing the same tune in different ways, we have a consistent message. It's very clear message. If we all have a clear vegan message and we speak it in many different ways, it's clear but it's clear. But what's not clear is how do people interpret it? You know what people love? Individuals like yourself telling them that there's a moral way to consume animals because they will never stop. They will never stop. Because they will feel so comfortable knowing that animals were raised in a humane way. It just justifies their meat consumption because me, back when I was consuming eggs, if I knew they were free range, I felt like I was doing the moral thing by buying them. I would buy a high welfare eggs and I would tell my mum, don't buy cage eggs. And this is what free range does. It gets them from going to a certain point and stopping because they feel relaxed now. My animals weren't tortured. But what if you started to talk with the person and you tell him, okay, so you agreed that cages are bad and the free range is better? Do you still see that there's some suffering even if the free range? I always do. It vegans the end goal. And you can build on that. That's not what you're saying though, you're saying you support free range. But at this stage of the market it's a confusing message. You can say this. You agree animals shouldn't suffer. So you agree they should be free range. But that means that you're agreeing that animals deserve moral consideration. So if you care that they suffer, why don't you care that they're murdered? You can still get there without promoting free range. Do you know what? You're telling someone to buy free range. Trust me, brother. With or without you telling someone to buy free range, they will buy free range anyway. You say to someone going vegan is the moral choice because these industries are disgusting. They're probably going to go, I'm going to go buy free range. They're already going to do that. But if you tell someone to buy free range and let me finish. You tell someone to go that free range is a moral choice. And they had the potential to go vegan in their mind with the right advocacy. You've basically gone, buy free range, it's a moral choice. But they were prepared to go vegan if you gave them the full story. Very clear message. But that's the problem. Sometimes you don't get to tell your story in the hall and the person gets from few sentences, the opinion. It takes one second to explain that free range is not a moral choice. That's not how the world works. I think it's confusing. You're confusing people and you're giving them an option that's not moral. I'm just talking about people who are also vegan and doing stuff which is also vegan. But at the same time they are not closing their eyes against millions of animals who are tortured before the slaughter every day. And I think that's also important. The slaughter of the animals. It helps that too. If they are tortured and the person is... If animals are tortured and you tell people go vegan, animals are being tortured. Yeah, right. But the person... Then they're not comfortable. Then they're not comfortable because if you're going okay... Just one sentence would be great if I could finish. Some people don't have the road on the curve. Zero, I don't give a shit. I'm going to be vegan next day. Some people do. But you're giving the clear message so they know veganism is the goal. But if you go just stop torturing animals and buy free range there's no evidence to suggest that free range animals aren't tortured anyway. But they do it like that that they also work for the animal rights wherever it is possible. No. If you just tell them look, animals are being tortured free range murders animals they might be tortured less, go vegan. Then they know they're going vegan. I'm curious in five years when are we going to speak about it if the success rate which we want or both to have, what would be more success rate? Well I've got a pretty high success rate turning people vegan. At this point. You won't catch me promoting humane slavery. You just won't catch me promoting it. Indirectly people will have a thought process when they see cage eggs and free range eggs. If you give them a clear message of veganism anyway if they want to make that step it shouldn't be because a vegan activist told them to or an animal rights activist told them to. They will anyway. They're already going to do it dude. If you tell them animals are suffering and being tortured go vegan. They're going to go maybe free range they suffer less not because a vegan activist told them to buy free range. But I'm not so 100% sure like doing this. I just wouldn't do anything that jeopardises animal rights. We still know that we are learning so much on the journey. Or confuses the message. Muddies the water. This vegan maybe we should buy free range. If you're not going to go vegan just buy free range. Muddies the water. They all go to the same slaughterhouse. Not everything is dualism. You can't just say this is clear. I think it muddies the vegan message. Muddies the vegan message. From one point of view that could be the truth. Because it's confusing. Like I'm saying animals deserve rights and there's no moral way to exploit and kill them. And then there's other vegans who are saying maybe we should choose free range over the torch. We're still in the same... Yeah but we have different messages. It's a confusing... By 5% maybe. Yeah because there's not many welfareists in the animal rights movement anymore. There's only a few welfareists around. But in the forefront full blown abolitionist animal rights activists now. In the forefront of the mainstream of the animal rights movement. There's only a few welfareists. And we are doing just fine promoting veganism. Earthling Ed, James Aspie, myself Gary Rofsky The page best video you ever see. Highest conversion rates out of anyone on earth. Promoting a very clear animal rights message. So we're doing fine that way. And there's no confusion. But everything can be improved. I think you agree with that. Everything can be improved. Do you agree with that statement? You think we'd improve by being welfareists? I think that it could be done by that. That's just a speculation. We've got evidence. This isn't an assumption. We've got evidence. The people are stated to you. You have the highest conversion rates of individuals on earth. You have results. But nobody knows what the rate would be if we were working with the crew which is not responding to vegan activism. Nobody knows. We've got welfare activists. But how is it being done? We've got animal welfare people that work with humane meats and work with free range and get paid by free range eggs to promote those. Right. And since five years we have it also in Czech Republic. But it's because since that we haven't got it we still meet people in the streets. If you start to get massive results if you start to get massive results more than Gary Rowski promoting the welfare message and you're turning more people vegan by it and you show us evidence that promoting animal welfare times bar 10 with your conversion rate judged by results not by your theory. I live in this country and I know what's the state of the society here. All I know is buying free range eggs stopped me from going vegan at one stage? That's an anecdote. Because I thought, wow, I hate cage eggs. It's disgusting. I'm going to buy free range and I felt heat's more comfortable. Yeah, possibly. No, I did. That's my story. For me, for example I started to acknowledge animal rights more before I had my transition in a slaughterhouse seven years ago was thinking more about the animals. I was doing that. But it was the first steps for me before I was ready for conversion. That's the thing which I'm trying to prove to you that not all people are ready to see vegans every day and change. That's the only point I'm trying to make. That's true, but these people will be ready. Dude, whether you promote welfareism or veganism they're not ready to change either way. Exactly. At least with me, they get a clear message. With you, they get a very confusing message. You think so? Yeah, it's very confusing. There's a moral way to exploit animals. There's an immoral way to exploit animals. Is it... There's a humane way to exploit animals? Right. That's confusing. But if we look to the principle because you're trying to make it easier than it is it's the same argument when people say doing the crops is also hurting the animals because they're not through damage in animals. It's the same generalization. We're talking about slavery and accidental harm that happens because of civilization. Humans are harmed accidentally because of civilization. But when it comes to numbers... There's a difference between slavery and accidental death. When it would come to numbers what would be far worse? What are you talking about? Numbers with what? With what? When the animals are living for example, in some way and I have animal agriculture plant agriculture and if I'm going to compare is it all without any slavery? No, it's not because also the animals which are living there... No one's enslaved for plant crops. No, when they're living in a monoculture there's a difference between humane dairy where cows are subjugated enslaved forcibly bred, sent to a slaughterhouse directly and their bodies are eaten and animals that are living in the wild and they find a plant crop to live in and then a tractor comes and they get a chance to escape there's accidental indirect death. It's a completely different context scenario and there's no slavery in that. It's not slavery dude. They're wild animals. They're not enslaved those animals. They can run away. Maybe they are mental slaves. Animals are mental slaves? They can't do what they want. Brother, like I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what this has got to do with welfare guidelines and veganism like the difference between humane slavery and... Let's leave it like that because we have different points of view. I'm confused with your crop death analogy. It's completely confusing me. It's the same thing. That's your point of view. Not working the whole day, I can give it to you. Brother, that's just like saying people die in car accidents. That's the same as slavery because their minds are controlled. No, they're accidental deaths. You know who else dies on plant farms? Human farmers. Are they enslaved? Can we cut this show? You come up and talk to me bro. Yeah, I'm talking to you but can we cut this show? No, otherwise you can walk away. Because you are in a better position than me at this moment and I don't want to talk to you like a person. Brother, don't come up and have a conversation with me for half an hour and then at the end tell me to shut the camera off. I just told you that we have different points of view and I don't want to... Do you know what got rid of human slavery? Abolitionists. Abolitionists. There were humane slave owners as well. For human beings. The slaves were safe in few numbers. For example, the politicians were safe even in victory. Abolitionists abolish slavery. Not welfare. That's great discussion. I like the welfare debate. I've had a few of them. And... Nothing personal against you. It's just... I don't take anything personal. You don't do your anonymous for the voiceless, do you? Do you do anonymous for the voiceless? Yeah. It's an abolitionist organisation. I'm just letting you know it's an abolitionist organisation. You can't promote humane slavery with anonymous. So... No, you can't. You can do it outside of AV but not within... on outreach with AV. You'd have to do your welfare activism outside of AV. Actually, I was looking for anonymous for the voiceless before and I think many vegans here before even they started doing things and I personally admire them and I think it's a good movement but I'm just not saying that everything is 100% clear and this is the right solution and this is the wrong solution. I think that everything is development and we need to improve everything we can. That's just my conclusion. Yeah, that's a good... But I don't like when somebody is trying to prove me wrong every time because of his assumptions about something. I'm not a welfareist either. I can't be. I would say I'm 100% a welfareist because I think that this has also its place in the society. You're either a welfareist or you're an abolitionist. I don't think you can be 10% of one and 20% of another. Because once you're a 10% welfareist maybe that's my point of view. But if you think it's the best thing I wouldn't just say that you believe in welfareism. I wouldn't step outside of that. I think it's worth a try. I don't personally, but... There's a few reasons why... There's a few reasons why I don't and I think I'm going to stand strong in that for now. It could be. But it's also always difficult to say something like that because all the time you're dealing with... Different people, different cultures and each of the public, the growth is I won't say small but it's working a bit. We've advocated in some pretty hard cultures do. I don't know. I think it's selling the animals short a bit. I think maybe you think this is the only way welfareism, but I don't think so. I think we're having some pretty good results. I just told you that I believe in pluralism. Yeah, I think you can get good results as an abolitionist, man. Could be. We do. No, like I'm saying like Gary Rofsky he was responsible for more conversions than any other person. I know all that data, but I'm just talking about the prison moment here at the Czech Republic and I'm willing to try everything. Nearly every viral activist has been an abolitionist. Think of that. James Aspie, Erflinged, Gary Rofsky, they're all abolitionists. Yeah. I'm yet to see a welfareist go have that higher conversion rate. I'm yet to see it. But when we do, it'll probably be you. Yeah. If you push it hard enough. I don't know, maybe, but I wouldn't recommend it. It's not so easy to change. It would still be slaughterhouses if everyone was a welfareist. Are we going to get it there? You can. Let's go, bro. Thanks for the chat. I appreciate that. See you next time. Thanks very much. It might be a while until I'm in Prague again. I'll see you on the internet going viral like Gary Rofsky saying buy free range eggs and go vegan. I'm more in the background. I don't need to be an influencer. You need to be in the front round if you want to make working influencers more than just to be there. That's good. I think I have a number. See you in the queue. See you, brother. I will. He's just stating theories. Yeah, I know. It's fine. I don't appreciate welfareism. I think it sells the animal short when we can get vegans. I've had enough to talk about that topic. We've got some good juice there. Veganism is not a diet. It's a moral principle which extends to diet. It's out there on outreach. If everyone chose high welfare beef the land use alone would destroy the earth. All in all, I think they were good conversations. Amazing. What exactly is the moral way to take someone's life from them if they want to live? What exactly is the moral way to treat someone as a product or a slave, as a resource? Don't let them leave with the idea that exploiting animals can be done in a humane way. That's a very big issue.