 Thank you so much and thank you the organizers for inviting me here It's a pleasure to be here. I was here 10 years ago when I was doing my PhD So it's extra nice to be here again. I Was in a leave for writing up the thesis which was really good to be here in London doing that Okay so I Would like to start by Acknowledging my colleagues and friends and informants in Southeast Asia that I have been working with over the years Without them and they're in valuable help and Patience I wouldn't have been able to do what I have been working with in Southeast Asia I've primarily been working in in Laos but With this last research project, I have expanded that geographical area to also include The southern part of China northern part of Vietnam, Thailand and Myanmar In that mountainous areas part of Zomia So my This who I want to acknowledge also helped me to realize that The adventure is not to move from Europe to Southeast Asia to work But it rather starts when going in the other direction When I need to challenge my taken for granted preconceived notions about the things that I study so for that I am especially Appreciate them and This presentation that I'm going to do today is part of a larger It's a small part of a larger research project that I've been working on for the last four years. It's a Research project funded by the Swedish Research Council so I'm doing the research at Uppsala University and And The name the title of that larger research project is rooted and routed heritage indigenous cosmopolitan in Southeast Asia and the overall aim with that project is to Explore the concept of indigeneity Since the word indigenous is seldom used in Southeast Asia And by using the concept of indigenous because I should also add that I did my postdoc in Australia so that's where my interest for indigeneity the concept of indigeneity and indigenous heritage started and I was curious about this concept because as I said, it's hardly ever used in Southeast Asian context So by using that concept, I mean generally local groups or ethnic minorities, etc And and it is a complex and questionable concept Since it always it is always a we who define the other also when it comes to That we tell say that someone else is indigenous It's most more often than the indigenous themselves telling same Claiming themselves being indigenous So it's a power imbalance already from the beginning which is Intrigues Anyway It's a it's an internationally Used term in academic field as well in archaeology and art history and heritage study study. So that's why I want to dig a little bit deeper into it And geographically this project starts departs from from the mountainous areas there That you I intentionally left out the national borders because that's part of the idea with the project to try to see how the indigenous or the indigenous groups or minority groups in that area This It's a large area and I'm not covered all of it, but I have done Studies in Guangxi province in China Nandan and Donglan districts And they are quite close to the Vietnamese border and the northern part of Vietnam in Longco and then gone further to the southwest to northern Laos and long Nantar province over to Thailand to may Hong Kong and into Myanmar to Kaya state and What is common for this area is that all these ethnic groups Living in that mountainous area use and produce bronze drums And they do it still today Because when earlier when I worked in this area, I Got to know about the bronze drums more or less as as art objects exhibited in museums and so on but in fact they are very much In use and produced in this area. So by looking at these Minority groups in relation to each other the idea with the project Research project in general is to see if if the fact that they have a common shared heritage by using and producing the drums Maybe that could strengthen their cultural identities because these groups are often much oppressed and discriminated by the nation national states that were in the states where they live So I'm interested to look at these groups And how they use and produce and can be strengthened by this shared heritage through the bronze drums So but that's the the general aim of the research project. It's a big geographical area. It's a large scope and so on but I'm just going to present a bit just some illustrations to show that It's a vast area With the bronze drums, it's I depart from a contemporary perspective Mainly in their research project looking at the bronze drum production today and How it's used in tourist Context and how it's used in traditional authentic rituals and How it's used how it's used as symbols for different things and In museums as well so What I want to focus on today then is The two pictures that I showed in the last slide to the left it's an example of how the bronze drums Bronze drum tradition is kind of re reinvented in Buddhist context in Vietnam so what I want to focus on today is The position that the bronze drums have in an art production and ritual practices in Southeast Asia Illustrated by this example from Vietnam And I will specifically explore how the drums have been transformed by being part of and central to animist ritual practices to being included in Buddhism and how this relates to art production and art history categorizations exhibitions and Buddhist ritual practices which you can see examples off to the right and Then to conclude I will try and connect This example to the largest scope of the entire research project again so I start by looking at Giving you a history and background by looking at the local what I call a local drum history During my field work I Came I've been doing a lot of interviews and studies in museums and Among different organizations that are working with the ethnic groups in this area and with the bronze drums and I've interviewed a lot of people that are still and Connected to the bronze drums because they use them and part of the minority groups and Erie doesn't really matter which country national country They come from where they live today, but they all have very much in common when it comes to their creation stories Where they are originally come from and As you can see in the map We have they all end up telling stories about the Gobi desert the creation stories always Without going into details about any specific creation story. I just try to Conclude the impression of all the stories that we have been collected during that the field work which are quite many But what they have in common is that they all seem to have Originated in the Gobi desert the stories are about sound and water and storms and People that have to move migration to the south Many of the stories also include a part where they talk about bronze or metal gongs This flat round Instrument that they used to play in the Gobi desert They reached it had a nice sound and it reached large vast distances, so they used it for calling for when it was a war or Calling for the ancestors and etc. But then when they had to move in my Southwards they came to the mountainous areas and then it was not enough with us It was not a strong enough sound from that gong So that's when they developed the sides of the gong so that it became a drum So And most of the groups that we have been working with date this to around 3000 2500 years ago approximately they don't tell it specifically a date, but the Karen for example in Myanmar and Thailand they use the How do you call it when we have Anodomini they put it seven hundred and thirty eight thirty nine years before that which is then Almost two thousand eight hundred years ago and that mark is marked by the fact that they started to settle in that area from coming from the north and they also use Another Concept to date which is they always talk about giants in their creation stories and giants are also used in different Western cultures in During the Roman Empire for example when they talk in the early written sources They talk about things that happened approximately to three thousand years ago They talk about that was the time of the Giants So there are connections that you can draw also between other Cultures that use the the the concept of Giants as a way of placing something far Back in time Approximately they all end up approximately to three thousand years ago So there are lots of written sources from China Vietnam primarily that are from Between one and one thousand five hundred years ago where they also talk about Bronze drums and there are ethnographic material and the ones who have written and documented are not the ones who Used bronze drums, but they are written about in early Chinese and Vietnamese written sources and The first documented Excavation of bronze drums is also documented in a Chinese written source and it's dated to around 1,000 years ago So this gives a totally different picture from What we from this part of the world Think about the history of the bronze drum and the documentation of the bronze drums usually we have also the newly The site in China which is was designated a world heritage site two years ago where we have 2,400 years old rock paintings Showing people with these famous well-known headdresses Connected to the bronze drums and the motifs on the bronze drums. It's also depictions of bronze drums in the in the in the rock paintings So there are a few sources that talk about these early kind of uses of bronze drums and there are also Connections with them or interpretations of the motifs Quite early on in the literature and written material About the Why they have different sorts of animals for example in the depictions on the bronze drums Mmm So this is quite different then from from Well to conclude the the local kind of drum history It's apparent that from the beginning it was a part of an animist ritual practice According to the motifs and according to all the written sources and ethnographical material and so on They used it for According to the photographic material they used it for for Calling the ancestors they used it in different ceremonies such as Harvest celebrating harvest time celebrating all the different Times of the year that needs to be celebrated to celebrate weddings and funerals and to Build a new house, etc. And that's approximately what they are still being used for in this in this area However, the international drum history then that I was more used to Before doing research in With these minority groups It started in the 17th and 18th and 19th centuries with travelers missionaries and colonialists from Europe coming to this area Collecting drums or just documenting seeing the drums talking about the drum drums recording the drums In the early 20th century Franz Heger was studying Well, I'm how 165 bronze drums that were collected in Europe became the base for his categorization and typologization of the Bronze drum that is still valid today, which you can see in the middle there Heger one two three and four and a lot of sub Groups and so on that I won't go into detail here Then The Dong Song concept or the Dong Song culture was kind of created as a concept in the 20s and 30s when the French working at the Airfield in Vietnam were in Dong Song and Well, it was actually not one working in Vienna in Hanoi, but it was a person who was stationed in Dong Song I'm sure several of you know the details about this But as I try to cover a lot of things I won't go into detail into different things So I just mentioned this but In the 30s a Swedish archaeologist, Olof Jönsö was excavating and that was the first Scientific scientific excavation of a bronze drum actually in 32 or 34 and in Connection to that or just before that this Concept of the Dong Song culture was was then established and so I have Listed here the different ways that the drums have been studied as art objects and as archaeological artifacts and as technological innovation because what What one of the aims with trying to find the origins of the bronze drums which people and researchers are still trying to find today because there is kind of a fight between the different nation Countries in that area who was the the one who had the the bronze drums first and where did the bronze drums actually started to be produced because Lots of a lot of research has been done on the techniques and it's apparently it's a quite advanced technique That have been used by when producing the bronze drums So it means that you have to have a quite advanced technology Which also means that you have a glorious past and and Which is Follows then that it's good to have this strong connection with the bronze drum It gives you legitimacy and and strong kind of identity Today and that is quite outspoken in the different Organization and institutions that we have been working with that this is kind of an important factor so It ties into national quite issues about national identities political power, etc. When talking about the bronze drums We can't escape the fact that it is it is actually a highly political issue The bronze drum research in this area Hmm and and then we can move to The use and production of the bronze drums How it is illustrating a continuous continuously changing tradition I said that against use and production of drum bronze drums as a Reinvented tradition when I bring up the example of of the Buddhist production of bronze drums in Vietnam, but I just want to show this first that and as I said before it is an Ongoing tradition today Where people produce you see a picture to the right? One of two bronze drum factories Authentic factories in China where they still produce bronze drums for the ethnic groups that are still using them for their rituals As you can see to the top in the at the top right The patterns have changed a bit from the ones that you are used to see in museums There is no Feathered man, for example, no ships, etc So they have kind of changed the motifs as well the motives that is central here is a band of That reminds of this of the sticks with this textile on which you can see But all of the drums that are produced for the current Users have that kind of in this area have that kind of pattern They use this not only for their own kind of animistic rituals, but also to attract tourism and Then they they Perform it in one way and then they go to the funeral the next day and they perform it in a different way and so on and They also Make a distinction between the local and the national kind of heritage Because at the same time as these groups are using the bronze drums for their purposes the There are also a lot of drums in the national museums in the capitals of these different countries and there They present a quite different story Which relates them back to the historical legitimacy of early production of the bronze drums It is also the case that the producers and the users are not the same It also goes back to all these creation stories that it was all Never ever the same produce the same group of people that produced the drums As the ones who used them And that seems to be an and continues kind of Tradition to So they are then today in this area use for you the drums are for use by the ethnic groups, but also as Kind of very strong and important national cultural heritage Presented in museums and not only in museums, but also in in private homes as status markers Here you can see to the top right another kind of pattern On a drum that is also produced very recently and it has the animals of the Lunar calendar the Chinese calendar year So there for the first time you see a close connection to a Buddhist tradition from being kind of The the patterns that have been most mostly connected to animist rituals and traditions. They have Now quite recently been Including also like Buddhist more Buddhist obviously Buddhist patterns And We talk also about a lot of illicit trade and drums that end up here in Europe for example and We I also want to add here that Most of these trade Traded drums actually stay in Southeast Asia It's super common to also trade Bronze drums as status objects in within Southeast Asia then is burn wrote an article about that a couple of years ago and Where he points at this Hidden kind of fact that we focus so much on all the bronze drums that are exported and collected by people in Europe, but actually it's it's a booming trend also within Southeast Asia that people buy them collect them trade them as status objects not so for private use in homes as Nationalist national heritage in museums and by local people in rituals So now if we move to this Example of this originally animistic kind of Artifacts or bronze drums How they have been kind of reinvented within Buddhist Culture, which is quite interesting and then we have to go back to Dong Son and to Tanhua Tanhua is today is the province where Dong Son is located in eastern Vietnam and one of the most Important labels of that area If the different patterns that you find on the ancient bronze drums that are connected to analyst traditions You can see it people have tattoos on nice cool Bars up to the left there. They have depictions of these feather dressed men they Are on top of entrances to different muse not only museums, but also to other Institutions and even Daycare child children daycare centers, etc. They are used for anything and in the nighttime when you when you walk along streets in Tanhua City you see the these patterns huge Like lights covering the the different streets and lighting up the the night So it's really an important part of the local kind of identity there to be the place where the bronze drums were found There is also a new law in Vietnam recently that private collectors can have It's allowed to have private collections of antiquities Openly in a more formal way than it was before so here to the down left to see a newly established private museum with huge collections of bronze drums And it's open to the public, but it doesn't have to but this one is which is good I think and When in Tanhua You can also experience this reinvented tradition of casting and using bronze drums in a Buddhist context This is one of the around ten accredited bronze casters in the town Who is part of an association that with its main aim to? Strengthen the local cultural heritage connected to the national heritage which is the drum and to maintain the tradition of Having this close connection to the bronze drum So if you are a bronze drum caster, there are lots of bronze drum casters in this area And most of them produce bronze drums that they sell as souvenirs small ones and big ones To tourists and to other people not only tourists a lot of local people buy them, too But they have no Meaning in themselves, so to say But then there are as I said ten bronze casting workshops That has been accredited by this the director of this association who he is the director together with one famous Buddhist monk in this area and together they have established this system for accrediting bronze casters and and When they cast the bronze drums, they have to follow a strict Buddhist ceremony before that usually that both the director and the the monk comes to the workshops to perform this ritual And then there's the specific bronze drum that has been casted after this ceremony is then Given to the temple and in the temple over the last 10 15 years. They have been developing a way to perform Buddhist ceremonies in the temple by using the bronze drum and playing music and Accompanying the the chants and so on so it has become incorporated into the Buddhist ceremony in a way that is Quite new so and also the fact that they have Developed the patterns as I said before to include Buddhist patterns and symbols These bronze drums that are made by these group groups Have still exactly the same patterns as the original ones Made two thousand seven hundred years ago with the feathered man and all this So it's an intricate mix of everything here, which is quite interesting. I think and This is also the case when you go to Myanmar for example in Kaya state a lot of the Kaya ethnic groups have been Adopting Christian beliefs I think 50 percent of all the people in that area are Christians and That that is also interesting when coming to the Christian churches to the Cathedral in Loy Co for example, which is the main city in Kaya state They have also incorporated bronze drums in the Christian religious practice and the ritual in the church But there they say it's more that they are quite outspoken about it's a kind of a compromise because they know that the People that they want to draw to the church are using the bronze drums And that's a way for them to kind of saying that we accept your traditions if you come and be part of our tradition And you can also find it in in other areas in both in in Thailand and Laos and Vietnam this happens, but the most Striking example is this one in Tan Hoa since that is also the heart of the establishment of the Dong Son culture and so on So these are the drums outside the temple well in in the temple actually where they are used in performances as part of the Buddhist ceremony and they are played by the director of the association together with the monk That have initiated this thing so I'll just conclude here made it a little bit shorter because we started later So if we just start by doing a kind of flashback The bronze drums that have been used and produced since well, almost 3000 years and From being part of an animus ritual practice the bronze drums are now incorporated into Buddhism and represent both It's art production and it's ritual practice It is a complex picture the world of the bronze drum So in my analysis, I have a few things to depart from concerning religion and politics So when it comes to religion It's always difficult to make right to everything here because I try to scheme over very much in a very quick time And but in general I can say when it comes to religion and religious practices that the ritual practice that is Performed in the whole of this area is an intricate mix of animism and Buddhism and also sometimes Hinduism and Christianity so it's difficult to distinguish one from the other and So it's difficult also to say that there was a pure animistic tradition that now is has been incorporated in a pure Buddhist tradition. It's it's very difficult to tell one from the other and We have also the the political aspect of it, which I mentioned briefly before the Competition of who is the original owner of the bronze drum so to say which is still an ongoing kind of competition and shows the How heritage is really a strong component in contemporary politics in society today But to reach a better understanding and come up with some conclusions here, I have chosen to explore this Example by borrowing the Chinese concept of Shen Shen Shai Which means fake The Korean philosopher Han Gung-chul He has used this concept And analyzed it in relation to art and heritage Because there is also a complex relationship between Western heritage discourse and Southeast Asian heritage practice it is not that I I believe in a discourse of difference because I think Some heritage people academic say that we do it like this here in the Western world And they do it like that in in Asia, but I I am not sure I want to agree with that since I think We need to expand the world of Western heritage discourse by also truly and For real including a wider Heritage discourse that is represented and can be found in Asian contexts So going back to Han Gung-chul and his Way of going from using different concepts to come to a conclusion about copies and fake We start with the concept of a right which in Chinese. I'm not at all good in Chinese. So I guess Several of you are here on which better than being Chinese, but the concept one seems to be the concept for right and if we look at it from from Western perspective if we still talk about the Western or Asian just so that we can talk about it it's the equivalent of truth But looking at one from an Asian perspective. It's more a Calibration to reach a balance which means that there are so different perceptions of Right and truth and balance. It's still the same concept, but it's we relate to it in so different way So so very different ways Because if we believe in truth There can be an original When we talk about our history for example or a painting or whatever But to reach balance on the other hand as though the concept means in a nation context Adaption to change is needed and there is and therefore they can be no Original There can be no start and no end. It's a constant kind of a process with where change is accepted So to remain true the true being in the Western philosophy sense Which is based on Plato's ideas about an original that is destroyed through change and reproduction To remain true permanence and resistance against changes is needed whereas in the nation perspective It's Change is accepted in a way and these are this is quite of very how can I say Structurally important for understanding preservation and originality and so on in heritage studies because It's two very different ways of looking at at the material that we are actually dealing with So in a shan perspective then to copy is to praise in a way when creating arts for example The artist studies compliments and admires the original by copying When the copy is as good as the original the artist has succeeded and Is then considered a new original master in a way So in line with this it is also not only allowed but encouraged to add to an original To make it even more original and to replace an original with a fake if the fake is better than the original you follow If a fake maker creates a fake that is better better than the original Created by the master the fake maker is master So who the artist is is subordinate to the value of the piece of art The copy or the original that has been changed This is connected to the Asian ideology of process and continuous change that I mentioned just And this is distinguished by European philosophers in the 19th century as something essentially different to their ideology of being as mentioned above and of beginnings and ends But for example Michelangelo was a fake making genius in the 16th century He practiced and painted perfect copies of borrowed pieces of art and then returned the copies So this was with other words common Procedures not only in Asia, but also in Europe this time But only until the 18th 19th century when the idea of the importance of the artist with a capital a was established Alongside with the valuing of private collections So in a sense the fake or copy consumes the original which is then being lost So here in the case with the bronze trumps, we need to consider what is lost and what is gained I think of the heritage because today heritage is being created more rapidly than it is being lost and The basic question here within my case study is then whether it is okay or not to change the bronze Brum tradition in the way that I have just showed from being an anonymous tradition to a Buddhist tradition to a Christian tradition change the motives don't Not care about the original kind of motives and uses And as I started out the adventure starts when trying to interpret knowledge from Southeast Asian context to something That develops the academic field of art history archaeology and heritage studies in Europe So this is what I think is needed To include In our academic Context here in Europe might be scary But perhaps were necessary to try and switch Foundational structures and rethink some of these taken for granted concepts so instead of the notion of original that is structurally closely connected to the notion of truth the truth is a cultural strategy that With help of exclusion and transcendence work against change We might think with the concept of balance Which is a cultural strategy that relies on inclusion and immanence where copies and reproductions and reinvented Traditions can be related to in a more free and productive way So I think I leave it with that. Thank you I'm more than happy to Have any comments on this as I said before it's really difficult to try to talk about such a wide scope, but still I'm sure that you have lots of of Detailed knowledge about things that I might have gotten wrong or skipped over or Hastened over and So Yeah, it had to do with it had to do with Buddhist beliefs in this case because There were actually ten different casters that were accredited among like hundred maybe that you can find in Tenghua province and So the monk and the director of the association for maintaining local heritage Except the bronze casters that are peace Buddhists and That are also Performing rituals When before they they cast bronze drums because as I showed before another photo from a Factory bronze drum factory in China There they also have they always have a little shrine in these factories so even if they are not part of a Setting like this organized by an organization They still Perform these rituals Before they cast a bronze drum that is going to be sold to one of the ethnic groups That are going to use it in for their funerals and weddings and harvest ceremonies and so on if they produce bronze drums for Tourists or for selling as souvenirs to ordinary people who are not using the bronze drums Then they don't do the the ceremony so these ten casters in Tenghua they were They have been working with trying to identify the right casters the monk and the Director of the organization for many years So that they they can they have to show that they are actually doing these kind of ceremonies beforehand and in this case in Tenghua The ceremonies are Buddhists in a combination with animist whereas in the examples from China the ceremonies before casting is purely animist Similar Very much so almost identical, I would say yeah Yeah, so that's the one of their prerequisites so to say for these casters to and not only start with because they want to be accredited but but they have been They must have been doing that since time immemorial I have a question how long ago in your research do you think they were Remaking them as you were saying these new copies or fakes as you like to call them from the originals. There must have been a gap When we were being made when did this Reuse of these drums actually come about 20 30 50 years ago. What are we looking at? Well from the Myanmar perspective there have been Document the documented and also in China a continuous production Since they were produced during the Bronze Age But in the last 2000 years they've been producing them. Yes Continuously continuously, but this re How can I say because that that's the whole problem with the whole? Case study because it's not a gap and it's not there. They started to do copies So this is the whole idea of doing this presentation to show that there are no such gaps it's a continuous kind of tradition and the people in the bike we are people for example in Donglang province in in Donglang district in Guangxi province in China They claim to be doing the rituals exactly as their ancestors did 3000 years ago and when you come to People in northern Laos the Kamu They also claim that their ancestors they they do the do the rituals exactly the same way as their ancestors did two 3000 years ago But of course they don't because they change and they change they have been changing over the last hundred years Which has been documented and I have seen documentations from both Myanmar and Laos and China where there are written sources ethnographic material how people are doing the rituals how they produce the drums and of course it's not exactly as they do it today and It has I guess changed along But the patterns that's the biggest change is this change to the But that started well, that's just a couple of decades ago. That's yeah Yeah, the Buddhist the Buddhist pattern is introduced much much later So that's not part of the the drums from the let's say 500 years ago in the group of Drummers from the Baikui out people that I showed you the man with the sticks with the red textile They showed me the drums because they have been in a funeral that the day before they came to do the performance in the museum and They used drums that were made two years ago 600 years ago 1200 years ago and another one which was the oldest one in the village which was more than two thousand years old I would guess So they for them The age doesn't really matter Which is quite interesting. I think exchange Or No, they are more or less ordered because in Burma, for example, it's traditionally the last one or two centuries documented that it's the Shan who are the producers of the drums and the users are other ethnic groups and The other ethnic groups order the drums from the Shan who are very good at Working with metal and doing producing the drums. So in that case The order is also includes also the the pattern. So to say So I can't see trace any exchange of included patterns included in the bronze drums in the in the Burmese example It's more difficult to See this in the Chinese example from Nandan and Donglan and that area because There it is not so obvious that there is another group or ethnic group that are the producers from the ones who use them sometimes it's the same and There of course there are some Influences from both ways In the kayak case there are not so elaborated patterns as we have seen here from the Chinese and Vietnamese example It's the traditional current run with you know how that looks and that is more geo geometrical patterns so in that sense, it's not so easy either to Distinguish any influences from between producers and users And we also documented actually But that was not in kaya state that was in Karen and the Karen area where one of the most important collectors in that Area was one of the Buddhist monks and he had Both ancient drums and more recently produced drums that he also used now and then in the within the Buddhist Ceremonies Can you tell us more about the museum? Mr. Who owns it and is it just the old ones and how do we define old which museum? The one museum you showed us the private museum. Yeah What is in it? Oh Other artifacts other other artifacts bronzes. It's like three stories high huge and Primarily bronzes, but there are also more prehistoric artifacts stone artifacts A lot of different very various archaeological artifacts, but primarily bronzes Yes, he's a local Building entrepreneur, I think So he has been collecting bronze drums there are so many private collectors in that area and He's fortunate. So he has money enough to Build this huge museum And they also buy The archaeologists One of a few of the archaeologists that I was working together with had friends that were on the same route as us Buying artifacts to collect to their own to be you seems it seems to be 2016 One way of thinking about that and just in revisiting what you were saying in your conclusion there One way of thinking about that is that she's so this is a Buddhist context the drum is being used in a very different way from your earlier example of Playing the drums within particular ceremonial context So one way of thinking about it is This is adopting the Western perspective of the original right the original is in a case. There's a museum style display She's venerating the ancient thing in its original state But another way of taking that is that Looks like a Buddha image looks like a relic these things happen on alters in little display cases and Along with the other pseudo anthropomorphic Accessories there, right? Like that. I think it falls into your second second one because the fact that it is in a glass case is that This is from southern Laos and it was excavated in connection to some mining activities because that's also Quite common all these bronze drums are found in areas where a lot of mining activities are going on because The soil is rich in metals so they have been traditionally producing bronze drums there and they have kept them there and used them there and so on and This was a team of Foreign archaeologists who excavated together with people from the Ministry of information and culture in the ancient so in that sense that the fact that there is a glass case is What you call the Western kind of style of exhibiting an object, but On the other hand, that's the only thing really that Reminds us of that the the whole Procedure around and how people come there Is more like the picture in the right on the right hand side, which is In an area quite close to this mining site where people found a bronze from placed upside down in the riverbank 15 years ago and They were afraid of excavating it because They thought something bad would happen so they Built a little shrine on top of the bronze drum. They didn't report it to the local authority but the the people at the local Ministry of the local office of from the Ministry of information and culture knows about this but that is also a person who is a Person who is practicing this combination of Animism and Buddhism in that particular village. So his role in the village is More important for him than to serve the Ministry of information and culture in Vientiane and send it Excavated and send it to Vientiane to put in a international museum. So they haven't really Told that to the to the national authorities. So they keep it in the village They have built this shrine and they they they perform their ceremonies Continuously and sometimes they also take a piece of the prompts from To make a charm or force very very special Occasions where when someone is really really sick or really really need to be helped So I would say that it fits into your More into that kind of procedure Yes Became It's funny how in I mean nothing is ecology in general is believe that the screening of this gongs started from the tongue in Goof and went to all the way to Indonesia and these drums Bronze drums became the actual Indonesian and Malaysian gongs and so it's very nice. It's a reverse process So that's one thing and the other thing is You said that this tradition has been Continuous in the last thousand years But the same behavior between the areas that you were mentioning the bronze drums are also applied to the gongs and Special like wood drums So I was wondering if I mean do you think it's like just part of the path That at a certain point starting from bronze trams, I'd say don't son bronze trams just spread through civilization became wood rams for example in Emma or gongs in Indonesia or and is it possible that this kind of reinvented legal behaviors Either Buddhist or enemies or whatever they are now are taken from the gongs I mean they give you that people The way that people behave to the gongs Like instead of like that line In the bronze trams tradition well Talking about wooden drums, I think for example On the borderland between Burma and Thailand in the refugee camps there were a lot of people from Kaya Has led over the border to Thailand They of course didn't bring their bronze trams when they fled So they are still in the ground somewhere in the jungle on the Burma side or sold or traded and What they do there now is that they use wooden drums Instead of the bronze trams because they still need to perform their kind of traditional rituals So I think from a music Hologis perspective, I think It doesn't really matter if it is a gong or a drum or a wooden drum or whatever and as you say as you suggest I mean the explanation that it was developed from a gong to a drum when they moved south It's part of the creation stories. There are no Kind of scientific evidence for that being so of course, so so it's part of them It's just to present the different ways that people perceive of how the The drums have developed and I guess it's the same in your case The source material for the hypothesis that there are actually drums that developed into gongs is that based on What is that based on is it the dated The objects or what is that I mean, could you explain are you asking? Yeah? Okay, no Well, I think it's Kind of contested now. Yeah, but Origin the original idea I think was by mental hood So he was like one of the father of economic ecology and he proposed this theory according to Which basically either like she breaking or trades from from aliens of this Asia to Indonesia make this like I understand people like knowing this bronze trance culture and they started to develop their own bronze trance and like Kind of like describes that you know in a very Novelistic way. Yeah, I would say in a book, which is nice to read but I don't I'm not sure I'm not sure about Geological Beyond my my But it is a fact that I mean bronze me gong chimes are Can I identify South Asian music you can find it in a marry and So and and there is definitely a connection with the bronze trance because I mentioned some some Minority group still use the bronze trance Fake copy or not. It is a bronze trance. So but the same behavior is also used to gongs Exactly, but I think it boils down to The fact that it is a piece of music and that you this music does something at least according to the people that are using the drums in their ceremonies today and listening to 93 bronze drums being played at during the funeral there and there in that case with the bike we are they have a wooden basket That so one person one man is is drumming It is lying horizontal like this and the other one is taking this wooden bucket in and out to Strengthen and it's it's such a sound that it really affects you physically So I think it doesn't really matter because I think that is what The the main aim with doing these ceremonies is to reach that Kind of sound that affects you physically so that you can actually call the ancestors or what? Any of the different purposes there are with playing the bronze trance and then if it is a gong or a drum or a wooden drum It's the same kind of result and I think that's the result that that's the main Thing that people are after when they use it At least for those who use the drums still today, and I guess it was the same case in pre-stroke time There've been any new psychological study of the Methods of playing the drums and the methods of playing gongs. Yes, it has I am not Very knowledgeable about it, but I I cooperate with them use the musicologist and also composer and musician, so they have been doing studies and on This and there is a field of researchers in doing work on that as well. Not so many but there are Things written about it Is there anything that you study of the etymology of terms for the drums It seems that because the different groups that use the drums in the this area today, they are not Part of the same ethno linguistic groups. They are Monkmei speaking and they are Chinese speaking Burmese speaking so from a linguistic point of view, they are not Kind of from the same root so to say but the terms for the drum is Quite similar And you can find it Even if the different group Speak very different languages, so there are close Words that are closely connected, but there is no study That I know of that has been carried out Concerning specifically that concept, but it's just by talking to the different people and hearing their kind of concept for the drum that We see similarities But I'm sure there must be some linguists Doing research on that I'm I just suggest some idea from my opinion. Yeah, I just I just read some etymology document and in one of the we mentioned about them The items train Yeah, I and Condominium and during the colonial and The ethnic group The blanket The item that what I want and I think that is it in this case front drum As Yes from this country to other country from this community to other community so that That's why there's more of the minority in the higher level. Mm-hmm. They use this Bronson and they not they were not able to cast any In the mountains you mean yes, but there are there are trees there are Evidence now that drums have been Casted also in the mountainous areas Very little research has been done on that, but there is at least two there are at least two sites In Laos that have recently been Interpreter as production sites and one is in the mountainous area Close to where the minorities live who use still use the bronze drums In case in in case of it in case of Vietnam only the the production sites have been identified so far in the lowland which is also the central hub for the trade, of course and There are Ambracalo for example. She has her book on that on the bronze drums She has Traced these trading routes and exchange networks and so on very well. I think so of course I think according to also the Fieldwork results from the mountainous areas We understand that the drums have been traded also in prehistoric times not only The last kind of centuries, but that they always have been traded and used both for Ceremonial ritual practices and also for Showing wealth and being part of the as for example Vietnam the mong That's very obvious a strong connection to Having a bronze drum as a piece of a status object Only the elite did have bronze drums No, that's that's part of the point with it that it's Irrelevant for the producers and users today to distinguish between Original copy and fake Because if they are used if they have if they are empowered Which they are if they are used in ceremonies Sometimes people also see the bronze drum as Container for Ancestor a spirit of an ancestor so they treat the bronze drum they have it in the house They give the bronze drum a name they treat it as a family member and sometimes the bronze drums Live their own life. They disappear in the nighttime and they come back in the morning and they yeah So there are lots of stories about how bronze drums also can be seen as Like human beings because they are empowered. So if they are empowered this thing with fake Original copy is irrelevant if it concerns trade and collection and exhibition in museums, then of course we can talk about Authenticity originality fake and copy and so on but that Is what I think has come out from this which was not the aim from the beginning of the project that This irrelevance of these concepts within a context where they are used and produced still today It's a cons. It's a it's a modern construction this thing of originality and and fake contra fake in a way Which makes me a bit uncomfortable because that was not the main aim from the beginning to be uncomfortable like that We've traveled around us have many others You maintain that they're seen as the same when we've encountered them. There is no question that The older original as a Western aesthetic my portrait the older original pieces are treated With much more respect because everybody in all the villages fully appreciates the financial value of them So an older piece on a Western market might be worth $300,000 whereas a brand-new one and you shared showed some pretty awful brand-new ones with the gold sort of They're awful. They wouldn't get 30 bucks In a flea market. So when you're there, they do tell the difference in my experience up between the original and the Contemporary mass produce My personal experience isn't quite reflecting your know it's when you look at it from from an if you have the perspective of a knowledge about Trade of The drums but in some areas this is not the case in quite many villages They have never ever seen a Westerner before they're very rare. Yeah, but they are still you got Wi-Fi. Yeah No, they haven't So I would say that sometimes it's not even worth I mean In most cases in New England, for example in in northern Laos and there was a survey carried out 20 years ago and then they documented around 850 bronze drums in that quite small area Today I was part of the survey two or three years ago in that area We did a re-survey the area went to the same villages 85 Bronze drums were still there. So it means Yeah, or traded to Anyone so that they could buy a motorbike or a new mobile phone or whatever, but still there are examples and of course then they Take into account the fact that the bronze from his own the older the better because it's more valuable money-wise But in the villages where they still you they are very cautious to sell all the bronze drums in the village Even if they had like 10 12 bronze drums in the village 20 years ago And now they sell a few of them, but they can't sell everybody Everyone of the of the bronze drum. So they still have to have the bronze drums to be able to perform there their Ceremonies and then it's not necessarily the oldest ones that are still being kept in the village because they don't need to be very old To be part of the ceremony. So that's my kind of point here. That's for the ceremony. It's not the older the better