 Welcome everybody to today's webinar. We are delighted to be with you today to officially launch our latest online course which is called Women Leading Change Shaping Our Future and we want to have a very informal conversation that will be rich in personal insights and I'm delighted to be joined today by some of our contributors to the course. So my name is Zoe Arden. I'm a fellow at CISL and I'm the co-convener of this new course and delighted to welcome some of our contributors as we have over 30 contributors who shared video interviews with us as part of the course from all over the world and we're very, very proud of the diversity and very, very different lived experience of our many contributors, some of whom are here. So I'd like to introduce them in the order in which they're going to share some initial thoughts but this conversation will be very much interactive so please put questions, comments, challenges, observations in the chat and we will make sure that we answer as many of those as possible. So first day I'd love to welcome Dr Perna Sen. Also previously my neighbour, it is definitely a small world. Perna brings lots of incredible experience. She was deputy director of the Institute of Public Affairs at the London School of Economics where she did some specific work on women's leadership herself actually, some really interesting research. More recently she was based in New York where she was director of policy at UM Women and currently she is back in London and a visiting professor at London Metropolitan University so welcome Perna. Also delighted to have with us Shagafah Gafuri. Shagafah is our youngest participant, still only 23. It's a very long year Shagafah and Shagafah brings some incredibly rich experience so from the age of 15 she was a social researcher in Afghanistan which is her home country. She now looks at policy where she works at the Centre for European Policy Studies so welcome Shagafah. Also delighted to have Maisa Jalbo with us. Maisa is a non-resident fellow at the Brookings Institute. Also she was the former founding CEO of Queen Rainier Foundation and you'll hear Maisa's passions are very much around the role of the SDGs, social entrepreneurs and how do we ensure that education reaches those who are underserved. We also have with us Gail Clintworth. Delighted to have you with us Gail. Gail has a long career in working in multi-nationals including chair of Unilever South Africa. She went on to be chief sustainability officer at Unilever and now is chair and board member of a variety of boards and has a particular passion and interest for work that she's doing in Africa so welcome Gail. Last but not least delighted to have Gillian's secret hit with us. Gillian is the director of our leadership programs at CISL which she joined a couple of years ago and prior to that was the CEO of the Muller Institute in Cambridge so welcome all of you. Delighted to have you with us and as I said in one of my posts I feel like I'm very much walking on the shoulders of giants so thank you for being here. So just a little bit of an overview of how we're going to kick off this initial conversation which very much reflects the lenses through which we look at the course and the course is looking at so both at a macro lens which is where we're going to start our conversation so what are some of the systemic levers for change what are the global dimensions I want to kick off by asking you Perna to just provide some initial thoughts on what you see as the sort of the real barriers for change when it comes to these global sort of systemic levers and where you see the opportunities. So give us your thoughts or rework that question into whatever is is burning for you at the moment. Thank you for the kind introduction, hi to everybody. I think this interest around how women lead changes is really very important because I think we're all agreed on the issue around representation and the dearth of women in influential positions where real change can be made and for me I think some of the big questions that really frame important discussions are around what is leadership about and what change you want to lead and so I think there's there's change around representation which is literally led by issues around numbers like can we put women where women weren't before and that in itself is a change but more than that if you're looking at what change you want to bring through that then I think there are questions to be asked about whether you want to change outcomes, whether you want to change processes, whether you want to change structures and if we're talking about inequality I think you have to go to that third level and that's the hardest level because that's where the most resistance is and I've always said and I still believe this to be fundamentally a challenge for all of us working in this field is the very idea of women in decision making roles is in itself structurally challenging and extremely dangerous for those who want status quo and who like the way things are now which is built around systems and structures of inequality so while we have some incredible useful tools that are fingertips that we need to know what they are we need to think about how to use them so I know there are people here interested in the SDGs which have very ambitious goals and a very positive vision about the type of world we want to see and it's only got eight years left to run for full delivery let's just remember that so issues there around gender inequality are very clear issues around violence are very clear sustainability health working environment education those goals are very grand but what is needed is to actually address the systems and the structures that have been very sustainable actually interestingly to use the word that we have sustained for a very long time and over very many generations and over very many different geographical contexts their persistence and their rigidity is something that's quite remarkable so I think if we're looking at women's leadership for change we have to think about how we can anticipate the resistance of those structures and institutions and what it is we do to enable them to change and that's both in our efforts what we do but I actually think that focus needs to shift on where the resistance lies where the power has to be shifted from and how that is done and I think some of that is about using those international tools that are available knowing who your networks are being clear what your ambitions and your agendas and your tools are and checking back being always grounded in that constituency that you know is there for you and supporting you through those changes that you want to bring being grounded in those communities that give us sustenance and sustenance and nourishment and encouragement to move forward so I don't know if that's too high level but I hope that's okay just to kick off yeah that's absolutely wonderful to kick us off Perna thank you so much and an absolutely brilliant segue to our second speaker Shagifer talking about being grounded in communities as well as your role Shagifer looking at sort of policy at an EU level I know that you're really keen to sort of touch on today sort of the personal insights that you have in terms of what's going on in Afghanistan right now you know it was incredible for us while we were creating this course to actually see things shift so dramatically and so quickly in Afghanistan last summer and I just with your permission I just wanted to reflect on one of your posts you talk about being grounds in community and you recently posted that you know sort of how how you're feeling in terms of what you know what you've had to witness going on you talked about you know I have to be strong for those who rely on me I'm weeping but I'm strong enough not to be tired of sending emails making phone calls and looking for solutions to save lives I knocked on every single door to save my father who has assisted international NGOs in Afghanistan for over 20 years and my courageous mother who fought for democracy and human rights for years who taught me how to be brave how to stand for human rights and gender equality who taught me and thousands of others how to fly although it's genuinely sad where we are I can't give up so you know wanted to get your your personal insights and I know that we've seen some some good news there as well so that we can also bring that in so so Shagford loved loved your thoughts thank you very much for this interesting question and hello to everybody I will start from from the last sentence that you ended uh it is that um when you understand the context that you live in and you understand from the very beginning that you don't have any chance to give up and if you give up this is something that not affect your life but the lives of millions of people that rely on you um the most important thing I think is to understand the context that we we would like to work on it and understand what kind of society we are working in uh from my background and from Afghanistan we started from scratch I am the product of the the 20 years of efforts of international communities the woman empowerment capacity building and all those sorts of efforts not from only one country but an international context in Afghanistan and where we started was from from a very low level but we um we already knew that we have a very very long way ahead of us to go and for me as a as a very little kid I was always full of this passion and idea for change also like that was the age that I I wanted to play I wanted to to to have some pleasure I spent some time around but uh this was always in my mind that we have to go for a change because this is a historical moment for all of us and if we act this is something that will remain in the history and this is a very timely moment to talk about this because what happens in Afghanistan is now reflecting that although all the efforts of the last 20 years of afghan woman and the international community in afghanistan has been wonished in in matter of a couple of hours we still see that great passion we still see that that courage and we still see that resistance that say to all of us that even though we see that all our efforts of the last 20 years has been wonished but we are still raising our voices and they know they know that they are standing against a super uh let's say powerful and and will organize a structured terrorist group so um what what here is reflected is that it's when you understand the context that you are working on it's can clear to all of us on how long of a vision that we need to have on how how much passion we need to have for this for the change that we are opting for and uh one one great example that I want to bring is that when the collapse happened in Afghanistan no one was believing that afghan woman could stand against this very dangerous criminal terrorist group that is governing the the country now but we saw those women and I talked with many of them and they said when I go out of the house I kiss my child's and I say goodbye to him because I don't know whether I will be back or not but I am going out not only for myself but we go to change the history and this needs a great passion and we reflected on this and based on this we see that um yesterday in the in the european parliament yeah it was announced during the afghan woman day that uh EU is going to release a new resolution uh that's uh clear um clearly states that they will not recognize Taliban but there would be some engagement to find uh find more grounds uh in order to to see how how would the further developments be so this is a great example to say that although there might be very less light that you see around but if there is only one light that you see at the end of tunnel it's very important to be super passionate about it and put all put all the efforts possible to make a change and every single change that we make would be historical and it's not only affecting one person brilliant thank you thank you so much shakifah um so maize i wanted to move on to you um and uh perna perna alluded to the sdgs at the beginning and i know that um through your work you know you are a special advisor on the sdgs um as part of your work as a visiting scholar um to arizona state university in mit and i know that this is also a very personal agenda for you and i reflect on the conversation that we had in in your interview where you talked about how absolutely essential it is for women and girls um to get education to get educated to get opportunities and have a voice um at the table um and specifically about the sort of role of social entrepreneurship so maize i would love your your thoughts on this right well um first of all i just wanted to say that what shakifah's talking about is so inspiring and i'm so happy to have her as part of this discussion i think that um what she's talking about is something that women around the world in many developing countries that have been through wars and traumas and you know are experiencing um you know many many many different challenges it's it's so relatable but she's talking about something that's real and live and going on now and that requires so much solidarity and so much courage uh among all of us and especially women uh around the world to match the courage of women in in afghanistan and the courage of shakifah herself um so that really heartens me and that is for me is sort of the most important lever for change that we have today whether it's for the sdgs or um you know making progress uh towards you know our common humanity in general i am really excited that over the last few years we have started seeing this sort of impatience among younger women that they are going to speak up uh they're going to um you know um not wait for their turn as we traditionally expect them to you know to earn their stripes but that they're going to speak up in whichever way they can in whichever mechanism that is available and that i think is very exciting and we're starting you know to see them on the covers of magazines and movements and we just i think as women who have you know progressed in in our lives i think this is what this course is all about right you know holding holding that door open and and really um welcoming them in and in fact allowing them to to lead the way i think the second thing that i'm really excited about um is the fact that you know especially over the last two years while this pandemic has rocked our world women have been at the front lines of the um you know not only the challenges and we talk a lot about the challenges the losses that women have experienced whether it's in the job market and the marketplace the fact that you know many women have seen seen um themselves pull out of that because they have to care for children or elderly um violence against women i mean really when we talk about sdgs women have been the primary losers and including girls in education on all fronts during the last two years but the flip side of that the positive side is women have also been leading the movement for change they have been the ones banding together on the ground leading social enterprises that are precisely trying to stop this pandemic from taking over communities and that to me is really exciting and we're starting to see more support for social entrepreneurs i'm sitting in dubai and i'm seeing just this rise of women social entrepreneurs across the region and i just think you know if anyone here is is excited about supporting women's movements please support organizations that are run by women on the ground this is where you're going to see the biggest change this is how system change starts um and then the third thing i'm really excited about because this is a space i also work in is really starting to see a very different dialogue around uh philanthropy and aid um and those are not going to replace uh government policy and systems but these are uh they can they can support innovation and they can really push and support people who are not being supported and we're starting to see a lot more women philanthropists speak up from different parts of the world from emerging economies not just from you know the US and that's super exciting and it's changing the dynamic and it's it's really starting to put the resources where they are needed and finally i will just end that i think that you know coming back to the SDGs and the the the short window that we're not talked about um it is going to take all of us to band together to get to those goals but i don't think it is possible to go back to the old ways of doing things we're going to have to turbo charge through the next eight years for us to be able to get to those goals and part of that is making sure that women are leading the way brilliant thanks thank you so much um gail want to turn to you now um and um thank you so much for participating um and so we're shifting the lens slightly so we've been looking at that macro level and i want to shift us into this you know now looking at the sort of mezzo mezzo level um bringing in your insights both um through your leadership roles that you've had in in multinational organizations and now specifically your rollers chair and board member um and and i was reflecting earlier how i love how you talk about you know we need top down and bottom up and middle layer you know we need to see the sort of popcorn popcorn for change okay through uh so we'd love to get your perspectives gail on on this conversation fantastic thanks Zoe so um me so lens this brings me back to when i uh when i studied at Cambridge and i'm going oh i can't remember those frameworks so i'm talking about the me so lens i think what i'm talking most about is um who do you need to be in order to drive change so i don't specifically want to talk about only women driving change because i think it isn't this is a women's leadership program but i don't think what i'm talking about only pertains to women but if we think about sort of the the areas in which you can intervene in order to drive change what is probably more important than anything is understanding the power you have where you are right now because if you can start driving change where you are right now whether it's in a business whether it's in a social enterprise whether it's in policy you know that is the most important thing you can do right now and so you know i often see a lot of particularly young women that are frustrated because they're saying well you know there's been a lot of talk about us driving change for some time and you know the guys at the top sometimes it is women but often guys at the top will say we you know we want you to take this leadership etc but you know the system is so inflexible that i can't move or you find people on boards yeah i'm fortunate that i'm on a number of boards with a lot of women and we are frustrated because we are going we're here we are saying come come come and yet you know the shift doesn't happen and so you know zoe as as you raise i think the perhaps thinking outside of frameworks thinking about change happens best when you i call it pull from the top and push from the bottom so you know the roller policy the roller to pull change up is absolutely important that's both in diversity and sustainable shift in even innovation really important and then push from the bottom it's really because that's where the ideas and energy comes from right the ideas and energy really does come from everybody as mesa said as shagofa showed us it really comes from people who desire the change to happen but then the middle layer that you're talking about i think is probably very relevant to people participating in this course because no one wants to think of themselves and i call it the insulation layer in an organization none of us want to think about ourselves as insulation there but unfortunately regardless of where we are we are a middle layer somewhere and the issue with the middle layer is that it really doesn't like change even though it says it likes change it doesn't really like change why is that well for a couple of reasons i think first of all because often it has the most to lose right secondly because not only does it have the most to lose but it's in the operations of how we keep things going and so you know shifting anything within that middle layer means that you actually have to change the system within which you're operating and so i've often found that my most important role to play is to actually poke holes in the middle layer if i'm the middle layer i have i have to just continually asking myself what am i doing to ensure that i create this flow through or indeed if i'm on a board i need to have a look at the most critical layer which is your kind of executive middle management layer to say what am i doing to enable those people to embrace a little more um chaos in their lives so that we can create a shift thanks i love that go embrace chaos and i think it's really interesting that no perna kicked us off talking about systems and structures um and that we've seen that as a as a thread um amazing it reminds me of the the image that the metaphor that you used when we were talking about you know how women at the top need to sort of you talked about opening the door but also extend the ladder and bring others up i love that that structure and and jillian this this brings me to you um again sort of we started with sort of systems and structures and and want to sort of look at that again um specifically with with boards um you as in your role as director of leadership programs work with a lot of senior leaders work with a lot of boards interested to get your reflections on on the opportunity for change there thank you zoe and uh thank you all of you it's great to be part of this conversation and i must say shega fur i feel very humbled by what we've heard from you today it was so moving it sent shivers down my spine and the passion that you shared with us there is something that i think if we could harness that passion for those women across the world who want to see themselves in board roles um and start thinking about how they might get there just imagine um what change that could be and what change that could be for the world really and as puma was saying the structures at the moment the structure is not set with many women at board levels and and indeed the recent research that's been published this week from the 30 club and deloitte shows us that we're still in a position where it's only one in five uh are women on boards only one in five are women and fortunately that position has shifted it's improved on where it was at the previous survey in 2018 it's gone up just under just over one percent but actually we're still looking at a position where we've got fewer women and but the speed of change has improved the overall increase of women has gone up by 2.8 but since the last survey in 2018 it's literally a shift of one and that shows me that we still got lots of work to do and luckily the uk is moving forward on this front as well as the rest of the world and hopefully we'll be aiming to get to a much better position by 2027 but there's still a lot of work to do and you know i i would say that there's there's a lot that women themselves can do in terms of building their own inner purpose their own courage and self-confidence and self-awareness to really think about you know i want to reach one of those positions i want to have that ambition to be a board member to sit at the board table to influence the change but there's also a lot of other players here that need to help us with this structural change you know the people who are recruiting for boards both the external recruiters and the internal recruiters think about what structural changes can they have in that process to bring women forward and and how indeed can we look out and seek those women who maybe have less confidence to put themselves forward because they know they don't tick all the boxes and we know that women are often very self-critical so they often won't put themselves forward because they might not feel that you know they have everything that it takes so that's a sense of people looking out to find these women but also the women themselves thinking about how they build their capability and capacity and inner self-confidence to take them on this journey and i think it's such a wonderful opportunity for women because women i think can really help boards the situation at the moment is that the boards are facing growing pressures and scrutinies from investors from the markets and from the regulators there's a lot of work to be done in terms of how to manage the climate and the nature related risks and the impact of business on society and you know women can play a key role in this they can have a voice at that table they can bring that diversity of thought that diversity of perspective to help boards with some of these challenges so i think we're at a point where there's a really really moment big moment that people can take this advantage and you know i would really encourage women to think about that pipeline of development to get to those positions to have that ambition to circulate with people who can give them that role model advice and mentor them and coach them to get to these positions so that those structural changes that Puma was talking about earlier can really start to shift and we can be in a much stronger position of influence and the researchers also told us that you know five percent of CEOs are women that's not very many but you know those five percent of women it says in the research have actually influenced and brought more people more women into their boards in their organizations so those women are encouraging other women and what we need is new women to come to the table not just the same ones covering more positions but actually new women stepping forward so i think it's a great opportunity and one which i think we can seize the moment brilliant thanks thanks jillian so so much in that answer there i'm going to we had lots of really interesting questions that were submitted in advance also going to get to the questions that you're you're asking now in the chat and perna i'm going to turn to you first you are such a visual visual listener perna i could just see you bubbly to want to speak i can see you this really makes me laugh so i wanted to put a question to you but also i think it's really interesting again another one the themes i remember from our conversation that one the final things that you said was decide what you are most passionate about you can't do everything where are you going to lead change um and um one of the one of the questions that we we had in in advance was um where do you think women can have the biggest impact when it comes to leading change but of course i would love to get your collective thoughts as you've been listening so actively to the other the other things i'm sure you'll have some other things to say people keep telling me i should have a poker face but i'm really not interested and so thank you to everybody who's spoken and to all the energy and and heart that we've heard from everybody so far and i'm going to cheat a little bit so like you said and just pull on a couple of things that i was reflecting on as people were speaking first of all i was really happy to hear about this you know the top and bottom in the middle of that sort of in some places we call the pincer movement i think it needs to be from every direction from every person who feels they can um to push for those dynamics of change to be made real i've also i was really pleased to hear julian talking about working with recruiters about changing how they work because for me i think all the work around lean in and change women's behavior and so on slightly misses the point because um women aren't the problem so women don't have to fix their behavior to make the problem go away the problem is elsewhere that constructs women as less than what they should be less than fully human not proper decision makers not able to make change not the right for leaders of countries and organizations so i think there's a lot of work to be done around the cultural context in which women's leadership is shaped inhibited or enabled and that's what i'm talking about in terms of structural change so why is it that women don't have the confidence to put themselves forward we don't start with the fact that women don't have the confidence i think the structural change you have to look at why that's possible why it's so persistent over geography and time that women are told that they are not the right people to be leading that they don't have the competencies that they're not the right politicians to vote for etc etc etc that's what structural change for me looks like and the third point i wanted to make is that i think we have to disaggregate the category of women and we haven't done that in this conversation today doesn't mean that nobody's done it elsewhere but i think to think about women as one homogenous group is problematic what we come from in terms of power privilege resources access ability disability race immigration status and so on it's come come you know really profoundly impacts upon what opportunities are available how we're seen as fit for the the opportunities and positions we're seeking to occupy um uh whether we simply have access physical access to rooms where decisions are being made uh and what you know things about challenging decision makers and the way things are done this they are absolutely influenced by who we are where we are situated in terms of those positions of power authority uh and and disadvantage uh and discrimination and inequality so i think making those explicit and not just you know putting down the ladders and breaking the glass ceilings and all these other metaphors that we use they are they have to be shaped and informed by our positionality in those those landscapes um and so linking to what change we want to bring and how we want to do our questions we have to ask ourselves am i prepared to be unpopular am i prepared to take the consequences of saying the wrong things am i prepared to forego certain things that might come if i tow the line now those are big questions and you know somebody asked me the other day to explain what role i'm in and i said i'm i don't know i can tell you what work i do but i think my role in life is to be a troublemaker to be a disruptor to be comfortable with what you're called making chaos and to be comfortable with the consequences i'm trying to be polite and not use not square but to be comfortable with upsetting the powers that be and that's okay i'm prepared to take the consequences not everybody is so that will impact what you're prepared to do um and i've gone on so and i've forgotten the main question you asked me i've done my general thoughts your main question was about was it about tools we can use um the main question was about um what in what way and what areas do you see that women can make a big impact when leading change so it's a pretty massive question and i think you you you've covered it in a number of ways haven't i do you want me to say some more i mean i'm away we've only got an hour for everybody so i don't want to take up all the time so let's let's pause it there and i'll come back when i i see your sort of active active thinking face um but it did i i reminds me of our our interview actually perna went with this point about being a disruptor i loved what you said about no something what's your role sometimes your role is to kick the door down and sometimes your role is to step through the door that someone has already pushed open um so i think that's that's that's an interesting insight really in terms of you know where can you make the biggest impact i think it's deciding you know are you which one of those and then what you know what's the context um shag if i wanted to come to you um because one of the questions that we had in advance was um around you know what opportunities are there to upskill and learn about leadership for young graduates and would love to get your perspective on that you know we're seeing so many encouraging examples of of leadership in in young people which i i think has had a massive influence you know not least by shaming older so-called leaders into having to address their inaction so so i would love love your thoughts on that question thank you very much um i think one of the most most important aspects here is to uh first of all question the structures for example for young graduates it's really uh most often happens that when you um go for it for a job when you apply for uh for example different positions the structures are kind of predefined and you have to find you have to think of okay which structure do i suit for but let's start questioning who defined these structures and why should we try as as newly graduates to fit ourselves into the predefined structures that that might not fit fit me or might not fit my fellow uh colleagues so what's of the here is a very important point that we shouldn't keep um this platform of what to do or what not to do or how to be the perfect fit for for a job or for a position or for example when mostly when it comes for woman it's very uh most often say that in Afghanistan is the best position for a for a woman is to to be a teacher or to be a doctor or that's the that's most suitable for you because you can also um take care of your children at the same time you can have more flexibility to to also take the house chores or take more responsibility of the children um the system the system of the country and the education system and i think that the most important like the policies on the platform should not reflect this traditional cultural uh systematic discrimination that is that is posed onto the young graduates and let's say this oppose a kind of marginalized the the creativity marginalized the um the new perspectives and the fresh eyes that um young graduates could uh could bring to different organizations so it's very important to provide a wider platforms and provide several opportunities and uh break down those uh and traditional predefined structures that make us all try to fit into let's have the best CV let's have the best let's show how how how much of experience do you have or or whatever and this for me i i lived in a system that was really pressuring and oppressing woman and for me it was when i was applying for a job as a researcher and that was that was a big question because i first of all i wanted to oppose what is the idea of being a researcher and what is the idea of like a young woman going and stepping into the research and i had to take the risk to travel to most insecure areas of the country and i remember that one day in our office there was a project that no one could go and it wasn't an bad action and one of the very beautiful but uh for uh pro-ances and um there i was the one that is sold up i said okay i take the risk and i will go there and um it was very important for me to understand that what i want to do needs a great passion and i have to give up on some of the things but the most important here is that how much the system is helping us how much the system is empowering us and it's not about um following a universal model but each each platform and each country and each context need your own structure and let's see let's find more ways to bring new eyes and and bring bring fresh perspectives into into the board and do not impose the the traditional structures that that might marginalize young people and their ideas brilliant thanks thanks shagofa that was fantastic answer to that and i wanted to build on that i'm going to come to you gail we've had a question in the chat which which builds on that i mean shagofa was talking about no needing the the courage and the confidence um and we've we've had a question now how can women tackle internalized issues around confidence or taking up space um to really contribute to leading change like shagofa was talking there about you know we we mustn't worry about being the perfect fit there's old research that's there's the um you know women will only apply for a job if they've got 100 of the qualifications which means they're missing out on so many opportunities and we're missing out on on what they would bring to those roles so i would love and love to to ask you that and also perhaps ask you to reflect on another question that we've had in the chat which is um your experience engaging with men to work with you to make systemic change the the person said we need more men advocating supporting women's progression and changing the system too and we should say this this course is completely inclusive we have men contributors and and men are also you know welcome to participate but yes your thoughts on that gail okay so um again i'd like to to bring this down to kind of the human level right so the question about how can we be brave how can we internally find our confidence for me the first thing for me the most important point which is something perner raises what do you care about what do you deeply deeply care about because if you deeply deeply care about something you know you will be brave right you will be brave it's when you are um not connected sufficiently connected to that you know that perhaps it is a little more difficult for you to think about well here is this a point i should stand up or should that but if you really feel it you will right and i think that there's a lot of internal work to do and i mean i'm i'm not a young militant i'm an old one but you know i can tell you that i've learned i still learning the whole time about what's really important to me personally and where i think i not only have earned a voice or deserve to have a voice but i have a voice that makes a difference right and that's a very important to think about so where can i have a voice that makes a difference and on what topics can i have a voice that makes a difference and if i can't have a voice that makes a difference on the topic but i feel strongly about it how do i get um uh skilled up to be able to have a voice that i'll use a little example so so you know i i i moved into the sustainability area without any um uh education on sustainability i just run businesses forever but i felt so strongly about this but i did realize that i wouldn't be able to talk to a whole bunch of the i call it the technocrats right who understood the um kind of deep sustainability uh issues and technical issues behind it so that's why i did the mst right and i did it when i was 50 so it wasn't like i was on my way up i was already at the top of my field but i thought i've got to be able well not top whatever the top is i've got to be able to talk to people in a way that they'll say look she's not just an empty vessel so i think there's something very important about um understanding what you care about giving yourself what you need equipping yourself to be able to have that conversation right the second point i think is around the people that create change or the people who want it most you know if you ever look at anything in history ever right and and i'm going to really understand that in the afghanistan context it's really hard because you know the people who wanted most have been the people leading for the change and now suddenly they've had i guess a lid closed on them that being said and i've had experiences with many of those situations globally and many of them happening by the way not to minimize afghanistan if you look at me and more now right so things swing and things change but the people who wanted most will be the ones who drive the change and will be the bravest so that's again is where i come back and say what do i care about most um and change does take time right it does take time so you've got to be ready to fall down brush your knees or step up again and get going because it's a really important yes we want the will to help us uh but it's us running the race and the nice thing if as you see with the the group on the chat here is we're not doing it on our own i mean if you think about it with half the population in this world running the race together that's amazing and then we're not alone right so actually you can't drive change by being only an opponent right you have to drive change and you know i always love the jiu jitsu idea because to drive change you have to actually also put yourself in another person's shoes and be able to move with them and to ask for help right and so you know we have a real issue quite frankly at the moment with some of the diversity um unintended consequences where we now have men feeling really scared and men feeling left out and men feeling like they are second class citizens and that has a major impact on how much we all progress together because as long as people are feeling when you back someone into a corner it's very hard for them to um to collaborate with you to drive the change you need and so you know the the i'd say the clever thinking that we all need to do is first of all what do i care about secondly how who do i need to drive this change and how can i collaborate with others who have completely different views to me right and then finally like who's my team which i think is uh you know anyone that has the same view as you and wants to drive change brilliant thanks gail mesa i want to come to you next um because gail was talking there about how age 50 she did a masters in um sustainability leadership at cambridge we were both on that program um and we've had we had a question about sort of the imbalance in education opportunities for women who are financially challenged um and i know that you spend a lot of time you know working with you know how can we get education um to to all women and girls and and wondered if you could just reflect on that a little bit you know how how can we sort of level access to to to education and training opportunities so that all women can reach their full potential yeah i think that it's really important that when we're talking about what women can do and sort of that courage and stepping up to to fight for what they're passionate about and the change that they really want to see is that we the system still holds back way too many girls and women um from even having that opportunity to sort of say um i can fight for what i believe in i think um you know i was born as a refugee uh a third generation refugee my mother and my grandmother were also refugees the only reason i am where i am today is because they made sure that i got a good education and that meant a lot of sacrifices on their part along the way and a lot of determination um the only thing that separates me from millions of girls and women who are today refugees is that i got that chance and you know i i think that a lot of that is my my family's determination my mother's determination opportunity luck you know i got to i got to move to canada and got a chance to start my life over and i just want to be sure that when we give the message out to to women you know be brave step up take your chance you know to go after that um the system still holds back way too many of us and we need to work together with the system with men with decision makers to to change that because at the core of any justice equality for women opportunity to do the kinds of things that we're talking about today is the fact that they get that basic right to an education um and then um you know we can also talk about what kind of education and what happens during that education and you know does is it an education that empowers them that allows them to to dream uh to to pursue any career that they want to pursue to pursue the kinds of um things that shag of all was talking about not what we prescribe for them but what they but they want to do um and so i think um we need to fight for education we need to um make sure that uh also for those who you know come through the education system that they can continue when you look at um uh uh beyond k to 12 when you look at university education um in many parts of the world we've made significant progress if i think of the arab world here many countries now have more women graduates than we have men um and um that's not necessarily yielding economic results for those women because they still can't enter the marketplace or when they enter it they you know they cannot stay in it because there are social and cultural and economic expectations that hold them back from fulfilling their um their their full opportunities but that's not equal everywhere you know women are still held back from um higher education particularly uh uh vulnerable women you know if you think about refugee populations something like three percent of them go on to higher education um or if you think about women in rural um or or um uh least developed economies that's even less so for me that is the starting point and that is the most important thing that we could be doing for gender equality and for our for our societies and if if we don't achieve that if we don't make market progress towards that then we're not going to achieve all of those other things so yes uh being on boards uh being on um you know uh uh leadership councils etc etc those are all very very critical um but we we we we have to sort of um keep our eye on the most you know the most vulnerable among us um and and work really really hard to make sure that they have those same opportunities because otherwise we're only as you know as weak and vulnerable as uh as our weakest uh part of our um you know community brilliant thanks maser um incredibly we're down to our last five minutes um going to try and achieve the impossible which is to give you all um the opportunity to um sort of just put what your voice into the mix before before we finish um in terms of no perhaps know what what you you would like to leave people with um if you feel like you've already said it then that's absolutely fine um but if there's there's something that you'd like to to leave us with jillian you've been patiently listening um so i wanted to start with you um if there is anything in particular that you wanted to to bring into the mix from um the questions that we had in advance or just final thoughts in our our last few minutes i think final thoughts are you know this is important for everyone and it's really important that everyone has an opportunity men women and cross cultures you know it's about um inclusion for everybody and for women to move forward they need support of all those people around them and you know what really matters i think is that you know we see women supporting women as well as men supporting women and that we build this unity and think about how we can give those opportunities and not put young people into stereotypical roles or boxes and limit their career aspirations just because of what's gone before so i think you know young people and and and going through education it's a very important time for them to have those dreams as meza said and those ambitions that may take them beyond what their their family have done in the past or or where they have been seen to go in the future brilliant thanks jillian gaol anything else you'd like to sentence or two uh yes we no one can do this on their own right whether we're trying to change inequality whether we're trying to address the climate whether we're trying to make sure that global south actually gets vaccinated right no one country no one person no one start of society no one leadership team no one can do it on their own and so it requires all of us to understand where we can have our our most significant impact so thank you that to all of you for the impact you're having thanks gaol meza i guess i was just saying that you know because we are we are talking about this course today i'm really excited about it and i'm grateful to zoe and her colleagues for putting this together and i encourage you to you know take the lead take the opportunity and if you know someone that you know can't can't afford the course or particularly women in in some of these vulnerable communities that we're talking about you know we'd love to connect with you and and to make sure that they they do have this opportunity so that's that's kind of my final message and i would love to connect with everyone who's who's part of this discussion today as well as a follow-up thank you so much thanks meza shaka for yeah i would just say that uh let's question all the borders and boxes and limitations that have been defined for us and let's fly over them and we need all of ourselves we need all we need to do this together i mean we need a worldwide solidarity of women and men together to do this uh let's let's go beyond all the borders that that is defined and limiting and oppressing us and let's question those structures brilliant i love that thanks shaka for let's go beyond the borders and boxes that are um confining us so um perna we we started with you so i want to give you the the last word before i close um final thought thank you zoe and uh just a couple of things um i think we have to recognize if we're really dealing with and seeking to undo systems and structures of inequality and power we're not always going to be having those who occupy power on our side so while yes scale we've got to know who we can work with and we've got to change minds but it doesn't mean we're always going to say i know you're agreeing with me but i'm just making explicit that we're always going to say that everybody's going to be on board and that people aren't going to be unsettled angered or resistant to what we're doing so be ready for that anticipate it you know if we're looking for um a really nice story that says we're all going to benefit because women are going to be injured it's not because some people are going to have to give up the power that they have uh and there is a contestation that's going to take place and so i think you have to decide whether you're already willing to take on that upset or whether you want to do something more quiet in terms of your leadership and where that's going to go there's there's something about um i want women not to blame themselves for not going to do what they want to do because there are so many obstacles in our way and so many people whose agenda is to stop us i just want to refer quickly so if i have a moment to some research that pew did some years ago around politicians and attitudes and they asked people in terms of politicians who is more trustworthy men or women who has more integrity men or women etc and a lot of qualities that people think matter in politicians and on all bar one women came out better and then they asked who they would vote for and they all said men now it's not about logical rationale it's actually about cultural prejudice and those are the things that we really have to be willing to deal with and you can be the best candidate for a position on a board in a university or wherever else and still not be in that position not through any fault of your own but because other people's preferences and comfort networks exclude you um one last point if i'm on on education may say i totally agree with you about the issue around quality of education what it what it the content of education be on the access issues and i find it quite interesting that even when we have so many education systems that are not about empowerment and when so many global um indicators are actually looking at access rather than content even with those systems girls who get to an education do better in many many regards than those who don't so imagine what we could do if we actually address curriculum bias in the classroom prejudice not calling on girl not calling on girls and so on there's a whole program of work there we could do and my last point is in your leadership and in your quest for leadership don't presume to speak for communities ask listen stop talking and then act thank you very lovely and talking about stopping talking um we need to do that now because we've come to the end of this webinar um so i'd like to thank you all so much um you will be receiving a follow-up from us and we really hope that you will be curious about our course women leading change it definitely builds on a lot of these themes in terms of building the capability the confidence the courage and the commitment to to drive change so thank you all it's been a wonderful conversation um feel incredibly humbled to be in your presence and thank you all who've been listening and sharing your questions and enjoy the rest of your day thank you thank you everybody thank you