 Welcome to the BBC World Debate in Delhi. Our three panellists will be joined by our audience both here at the World Economic Forum India Summit and around the world on television, radio and social media. Joining me on the panel, Pius Goyal is Minister for Coal, Renewable Energy and Power. He headed publicity and advertising including social media for the BJP's election campaign which they won so resoundingly in May. Representing corporate industry, Sunil Bharti Mittal, Chairman, Chief Executive and founder of Bharti Enterprises, whose Bharti Airtail is a main mobile phone pioneer and provider here. And from civil society, Aruna Roy, a leading social activist and transparency campaigner. Ladies and gentlemen, the participants in this BBC World Debate from Delhi. Well let me give you an idea already of the kind of social media we're getting, two different views from tweets already. Firstly, I feel like living in a nation which will lead the world within a decade. Modi's India will be developed and clean. On the other side, a man who promises so much is doomed to complete failure. Sunil Mittal, representing industry, you represent big business here which shifted its heavy financial and economic weight firmly behind Narendra Modi for the election. Is Modi doing what you asked and backed him for? Well we didn't ask anything, we hoped for a lot. So if you ask me has the hopes been set right in this country, I think the answer is sounding yes. I'm an entrepreneur who works more with feel than data. I can tell you that in my gut I feel very happy and confident about India surging forward. Aruna Roy, your view on Prime Minister Modi's five months in power so far. Well there are two India's, one India in which we are today and the other India which has a completely different face and different kinds of people. The other India is unhappy, distressed with a whole spate of promises which have been retract. Beginning with a promise of keeping the works program in which 100 days of ensured work for poor workers. Putting back labour laws, acquiring the land acquisition act which was fought for, being modified. All the rights based programs being questioned because we got those rights based programs. It was not a party that gave it to us. It was the people who fought for it and for us it's not a particular party's victory. It's a people's victory and it's being interpreted as something which a previous government gave us. Governments changed, they come and go but we are there forever. All right, well let's pick up on a number of those points as we go through this in the BBC debate. Minister Goyal, no big bold reforms yet. You seem to be tinkering with old congress party policies. Nothing really decisively new and people are frustrated. I think Mr Modi in the first five months has demonstrated a huge amount of confidence in the international community, in the Indian community. The very fact that people are once again looking at India, the investor confidence is at an all time high. In terms of big bold reform, I don't know what you mean by big bold reform. You promised it in the election. Yes, but all of those promises are being acted upon. For example, he said he will bring in reform in transparency. You see a government which is completely transparent changing the rules of the game so that discretion is eliminated from the system. We did that in the power sector when the Supreme Court passed severe strictures on the method of allotment that was followed in the erstwhile period. We brought in a huge amount of transparency which has been well received on a variety of issues. The Narendra Modi government believes there is no contradiction between the two India's that Madam talked of. There is no contradiction in being pro-business and being pro-poor. Ultimately, it's when business succeeds that we will create jobs, we will improve the lives of the people who are earning for being self-reliant, earning for a better tomorrow. Right, well let's explore all of those points in this debate and let's pick up on that word, prosperous. And you've just mentioned that yourself, Minister. Let me just quote to you Facebook, Fazil Assai, Mr Modi has not done anything productive yet. He's just talking and talking. Hopefully he would actually do something in future. One tweet here, BJP is no different from any other party. They're creating more noise than work. Well let's go to Mihesh Sharma who's a lead writer with the editor of opinion page of the business standard. What's your view of the BJP approach? Well, I think it's clear that the Prime Minister is the most powerful and transformational and popular leader that this country has had in generations. He's also an incredible political talent and he seems to be spending his political capital on a series of sort of suggestions of maybe a social change and incremental changes to our legislative framework and our administrative framework. You know there are websites, there are little changes, little tinkering at the margins. Tinkering at the margins, you're not going for the critical issues you said you were going to do. Mr Modi understands that unless you do a root cause analysis to understand where the problem is, look at health. Health is a challenge we've got to sort out. Now the question is do we only look at the health after a person falls sick or we look at preventive medicine. We look at preventive methods of reducing the need for health care. Your 500,000 doctors short at the moment. Simple thing, while we address the problem of doctors, why don't we reduce the illnesses in the country. Simple thing like water and the quality of water, if it can be set right. India's massive problem of waterborne diseases is one of the biggest causes of distress. But the suggestion there is that you are tinkering at the margins with what is already there as opposed to going for big, bold, real, substantive changes. Let me just ask the minister first. I think on every issue there are after all five or six big issues that people are worried about. On the economy front they were looking at fiscal prudence, they were looking at a stable economy. They were looking at an economy which is setting right some of the massive corruption, massive issues of wasteful expenditure. Mr Modi is focusing on setting the economy right, getting India back to that high growth rate that will bring in jobs that will bring in economic prosperity for the common man. Mr Modi is also focusing on specific issues which address their day-to-day lives, whether it's health, whether it's education, the outreach program to get students interested in national development, students engaged in society building, students who are looking at a brighter future which is vocation and skill base, not necessarily just going to school and coming back, but making them employable. I think the focus that Mr Modi has, whether on education, whether on preventive healthcare, whether on skill development, the right moves are being taken. What Mr Modi is working on is a five-day test match, not a T20. Five-day test match, not a T20, a reference there to cricket. Aruna Roy, your view. I think this government has solely disappointed us with its transparency regime. When you win the opposition, you promised us, the whistleblowers bill, you promised us a loch pal. They've been passed by parliament in the six months you haven't notified it. 40 RTI activists have died, 10 of them because they didn't get basic information under the Right to Information Act under section 4. Your government could have produced templates for all the ministries and all aspects of the central government and the state governments that are under your party now. To put out templates of information, you haven't done that. With the MGNREJ, that is the works program, which gives 100 days guaranteed employment. You have really started diluting the act when you talk about 18 million jobs. What you're really looking at is the 10 crore, which is how many? 100 million people who are really working today. We're going to explore some of those issues, but you are deeply uncomfortable. We are very uncomfortable because promises there's more rhetoric, but there's very little action. In fact, in some cases, it's going back. Sunil Mittal, you heard there that suggestion that really there's only tinkering at the margins. Nothing going for the core of the changes that are needed. A big bang is needed. What's the view of corporate industry? I completely disagree with Aruna because her position has not changed. She was exactly like this four or five years back under the previous regime, and I think she has exactly the same views today. You can always come from a negative position and stay in that zone for life. I don't belong there. I belong towards the most positive side of the society where hope is very important. What is Prime Minister Modi doing here today? He is involving the nation like no other leaders are ever involved. No leader or no government, handful of ministers or bureaucrats can change this country. The society needs to be involved to change this country. He is giving a clarion call to everyone to get involved. The people at large, the corporates, the bureaucrats, the politicians, I can tell you I've watched the governance for a long period of time, nearly 40 years now. I've never seen a more hard working government. I've never seen a more open and transparent government. They are making themselves in some sense less relevant for doing things in India. I think that is a mark of a great leader. That you will remove yourself from day-to-day involvement in governance, yet you will create an enabling environment. I want to give you one example. There are many who say he is drilling down deep. That is the Prime Minister taking active personal interest everywhere. Absolutely. Look at the Swach Bharat. The minister spoke about how you can deal with a lot of disease in India. Sanitation is a big issue. Many people are getting involved. What you are seeing today is people are going to stand up and start to check people, creating poor sanitation, creating dirt on the roads. There is a large amount of work going on there. It's a fundamental mindset change that's happening. I want to point out one example from history. In the Second World War, Russia was in a bad shape. People were dying like flies. General Christof was walking up and down. This is depicted very nicely in a story. He said, what can we do? One soldier took the courage and said, give us hope. He picked that up and said, that is what we need to do. For a leader, that is most important. Rest changes automatically. India has fallen to 142 out of 189 in the World Bank Index of Countries for Doing Business. As NK Singh, an advisor in the Finance Minister's office says, India remains among the most over-regulated countries in the world. A manufacturer having to comply with 70 regulations and file 100 returns each year. What's it like trying to set up a business at the moment? We're joined by Rajiv Mantri, who's Executive Director of a company which is involved in nanotech. Is it easy to set up a company these days? Thank you. I'm a member of the global shippers community. Start again. I'm a member of the global shippers community. My question to the panel is, India has been synonymous with red-trap and bureaucracy for a long time. The Prime Minister was elected on the promise of minimum government, maximum governance. Whether it's starting a business, operating a business, even closing down a business, we all know it's extremely difficult. Are you experiencing this yourself at the moment? Very much so. What's in the way? I would specifically point to the new Companies Act, which is a new set of corporate regulatory rules which have come in. That has made business very difficult for small enterprises. Has anything changed in the last five months? Not really. Not really, Minister. Nothing's changed in the last five months. I think we have inherited this Companies Act. It was neither passed by the current government nor framed or deliberated on by the government. We have only had one session in which it was probably the most productive session that Parliament has ever had in a long time. We have another session coming up soon where you could see changes in the rules. Do you recognise this frustration? Yes, his angst is absolutely right. You've got a young entrepreneur who wants to set up businesses. That's right. The Companies Act was deliberated on in the earlier government. A lot of criticism was made and I was a part of that criticism but we need to set it right. I think the government has already taken it under consideration for improvements going forward. But since a lot of people talked about the ease of doing business, one must recognise it's a 67-year-old legacy. In our government, for example, we told all the bureaucrats, you cut down the layers of decision-making. In my own ministry, I've been asking them, I won't sign a file unless there's a policy perspective to it. Why do we have to address individual issues? That's only sought out by the policies. And why does the file have to go through... They can't set up businesses adequately at the moment. It takes 30 days to do something. It takes an average of 9 days in our countries. That's right. That's a 67-year legacy which we are setting right as we go forward addressing each issue at the root. Let's pick up on corruption because that was at the heart of challenges to the previous Congress government. India is now ranked a dismal 94 out of 176 countries in the last Corruption Perception Index of Transparency International. That's behind China, South Africa and Brazil. Here's a tweet from Dependu Choudhury. A corruption-free Indian economy, is it possible? Facebook, Utkash Mishra. What are the measures Modi is taking to remove corruption at lower most level, which is affecting the poor most? Sunil Mittal, do you see a change in the ideas and spirit and determination corruption or not? Absolutely. Where does the corruption really come from? It comes from descriptions in the hands of authorities. Now, resources or natural resources has been a large area of problems. And the other is real estate and land and its conversion. I think the first one is being decisively handled as we speak. There are going to be auctions for coal coming up soon. Spectrum is already being auctioned. Many other public resources are going to be auctioned. In the area of real estate, the land bill is under a debate now. There are some issues which need to be probably tweaked and they are under reactive consideration. But importantly, you need to define real estate laws very clearly. Most of them sit in the state. Can the center guide the states to go through a process where you have a clear demarcation of land use? And rather than giving it through discretionary allotments, they must be having public auctions other than for social good like hospitals or schools. Aruna Roy, do you see any change on corruption at the moment? Hardly because we don't know what the government is doing. That's precisely why it seems much better. It's an opaque government. We don't know what's happening. There is no policy statement, fiscal policy. We don't know what's the next five. We don't have a roadmap. We need all this because it's only then that people can monitor what the government is doing. And if Mr Modi has won on faith and hope, he has to tell us this is a social contract. He gets elected not because of a religious quality. He's there as a representative of all of us. He has to speak to us. He can't just tweet to us. He can't just have an email ID. He has to have consultations. He has to meet us in person. Minister, you're hiding. You're not being open. You're not being transparent. You're not being visible enough. A lot of people are complaining that there's an overdose that they are going through. No, there was an overdose during your election campaign but not now. The amount that this government is talking when it is required to come in... But you talk to us but not you don't listen to us. You don't answer us. Well, we don't talk to people who are only necessarily looking at obstructing government processes and improvements. I'm exceedingly sorry. Right to information has not been obstructive. It has opened up decision making and India, you may not know it. But India is ranked as the second most, the best act in the world. The government has refused to join international fora but it has got cue doors from all over the world. You don't recognize it. And Mr Mithil says I say the same thing. Well, let me hear the minister. Mr Mithil, it's not a question of whether you say the same thing or not. Arun Rai, let me hear the minister. Whether the people of India in any case have passed judgement on whether that was the promises and the rights were good for them or they are happy to look at delivery and performance. He has a track record in Gujarat where he's actually, even in the real estate sector, completely computerized and completely eliminated discretion. In fact, if you see in terms of performance, this government is focusing more on debottlenecing all the processes, getting government out of the lives of people. A simple example. What about the idea? A simple example. Minister, but let me put to you. May I give you a simple example? Corruption remains endemic in this country. Corruption starts, as he said, with discretion. Look at a toll booth. A toll booth has an opportunity for you to pass through paying the toll or paying a bribe. Instead of that, we are completely making it electronic toll booths. Already 900 toll stations have been converted to electronic in the short period. Now, if in one year we can eliminate manual toll booths, look at the enormous advantages it has. The savings and diesel and petrol, travel time, the speed with which you can go. The whole world has it and India has been deprived. So 67 years of deprivation being sorted out is a process. Well, let me talk about... It's not something that happens in one month. Let me put to you the principle, Sunil Mital. The outgoing finance minister, Mr Chidambaram, said, No one cares about corruption when growth is 10% and everyone's doing well. If growth has slumped to 4-5%, then large numbers blame corruption, which remains endemic. What's your experience? After all, there was a corruption problem, a significant problem, where a large number of licences had to be abolished, somearily, because of corruption. I say the same thing. The issue is not about 10% growth versus 5% growth. India has had 5% growth for decades before 1991. It doesn't mean that the corruption didn't exist at that point in time. There's no correlation. The basic problem with corruption is discretion. I always enjoy challenges from Arunai because I have great respect for her because she has, in her own way, a view about the society and how she feels they're not getting the fair share from the government. My own view is the path that India has taken now decisively will ensure in 5, 7, 8 years we will be a new society. A new society? A society which will take corruption head-on with the help of social media, with the help of much more alive and aware citizens. I think we are getting there. I feel a lot more confident today that we are on a path where in 5, 7 years we will have fundamental changes in our society. Can I just come in here? I have great hope in the Indian people. I don't have any hopes in a single leader, no matter which party that leader may belong to. I have great faith in the Indian people. Even if you freeze us. Please, please. Even if you freeze us. No, no, no. Let me finish what I'm saying. I waited for you to finish, so you must. So people in India, the best way to resolve anything is democracy. We've taken it. And democracy means decentralized decision-making, decentralized monitoring. No matter even if God came down and became the Prime Minister of India, he can't or she can't control what's happening in every single village. There are millions of people. So I think what we really need are systemic changes and we don't, and the strickel-down theory, has simply not worked for us. Runaway, are you being too bleak since the election? There have been two state elections in Haryana and Maharashtra. BJP has been returned with thumping majorities, reversing the political situation in Maharashtra, which is where Mumbai is. So in other words, democracy surely is working at the moment. Democracy, if it's just the vote. Yes, it's working in some states. In Rajasthan, murmurs have already begun. In four by elections in three you've lost. So it means that people are rethinking what they want now, because if you're going to put back pensions, you're going to put back employment, you're going to say no information, you're going to say all that, no food, the right to food has not even been enacted, then they now see, achedyn to nahi ae. But that's your protection for good governance. The murmurs and restlessness is your insurance. I think the nation is tired of this kind of doles. The nation is looking for self-reliance. The nation is looking for jobs. That is what this government is focusing on. Because the campaign is made, make it in India. Make it in India. Make it in India. That's the Prime Minister's big idea, inclusivity as well. We've had one tweet here. Will the government unleash the private sector? Will it acknowledge it's the private sector that will drive growth and development? Is that the direction you're moving in, because there are many who are concerned about that? I think it's not about ownership. It's about vision. It's about leadership. We believe every sector has to perform. The public sector has its own duties. The private sector has a great role to play in taking the country forward. And I see no contradiction between the two. Both can coexist. Both can perform well. There are instances where private companies have failed in a sector. And there are instances where public companies have succeeded tremendously in another sector. So I think it's more about vision. It's more about sincerity of purpose. It's more about leadership. It's more about honesty. And that is what Mr Narendra Modi brings to the table. That is what I see is the paradigm shift which Sunil just mentioned, that the people in India finally are tired of just promises and rights. They want to actually deliver in their homes. That is what we are focusing on. Can you represent in business, there's been deindustrialisation in this country. Only 15% is involved in manufacturing. The aim is 25%. Is that really achievable? So much being made in India when the capacity simply isn't here. Yeah, so there is a serious cause of worry and it's not in the last five months. Even the previous government was talking a lot about manufacturing. The previous minister, Anand Sharma, was very, very keen on stepping up manufacturing. They brought national manufacturing policy in place. The fact is that they lack. I mean, we have suffered heavily in the manufacturing area. 15%, 16% of India's GDP is not enough to create jobs. We need to get to 20%, 22% as soon as we can. Therefore, to go after manufacturing, make the clarion call of making India is a wise one. Aruna Roy, do you see the rural areas becoming a seat, a new seat of manufacturing or not? I find that they are being displaced from what they used to manufacture. I find women who used to make rakis and sell them for us for a festival. We tie these friendship bands. We now have rakis from China. Banarsisari weavers are being accused of going to NRGA. But we have Banarsisaris woven in China. We have only Chinese goods in our market and our people are getting displaced. So there's something wrong in the way we're looking at it. Aruna, I think you were in government 10 years when this happened. I'm extremely sorry. I'm not a member of the Congress party. I do not and I strongly object to this statement. I said the same thing to every political party in power and I'll say it again. And rights-based laws are not doles. You're transferring democratic decision-making and power to the people to say, now it's not my responsibility alone. You also have to monitor the government. It's your option. If you sit down and look at how your panchai is functioning, you'll get it, otherwise you won't. You must demand and continue with your battles at the grassroots. In fact, it's a great responsibility. It's not a dole. Let's look at another challenge now. Infrastructure, a country which is still struggling. It's estimated that $1 trillion worth of infrastructure investment needs to be done with building roads, with sewage, as more and more people move to the city. Power as well. I'm joined by Alok Kirshaga, who's a senior partner with McKinsey, the Asia Center there. What's your analysis? I think that the importance of infrastructures of course well understood, is to make it happen has to be a public and private partnership. It has to happen on the basis of transparent policy and active private sector investments in all aspects. Today it's been very limited, only in the roads area. I think it has to expand not just to power, but also to social infrastructure. Is it achievable, do you believe? I believe it is if we take the right innovations to first solve the current problems we have, particularly in power and in roads, and then have a bunch of innovation, particularly in the financing area, to enable it to happen. So the question I have for the minister is really when you talk about the government and business partnership, what does the government need to do differently to enable this, and what does business need to do differently to enable much more successful infrastructure? Because the last government made great commitments on infrastructure and found itself bogged down in rights, in contracts and everything else under the sun. I think three important elements to getting infrastructure off the ground which we are focusing on. One is the massive corruption and the economic situation which deteriorated in the last five, six years has caused interest rates to become completely unaffordable. Most infrastructure projects today are stuck because of very high interest rates. I think with a better management of the economy and softening of interest rates that will be one important element to bring infrastructure back on track. The second is parity between the public sector and the private sector. For example, a simple thing like transmission lines in India. By and large, done publicly. Private sector was invited. We had only 4% private sector engagement. But the laws were different. Public sector got a preferred treatment. Private sector had a problem. We have now said that right. We made sure everybody is at parity. Let there be competition. For example, transparency is a simple thing which we did. I'll tell you how big an impact it can be. Traditionally, India has looked at purchases through an envelope. So everybody bids into an envelope. There's great potential to cartilise. Great potential to be corrupt. What we are trying to introduce increasingly is computer-based e-tendring, computer-based reverse bidding for all contracts. And that gives an opportunity to discover the best value. It gives an opportunity to bring in competition. And gives an opportunity to international players to come into India in a big way. I think infrastructure investments which have been bogged down for the last few years are poised for a take-off. I see at least $250 billion coming into power, into the fuel, coal mining, into transmission and distribution. Personally, I believe the road sector is poised to take off in the next two or three years at 30 km a day. Which was what Mr Vajpay had achieved when he was Prime Minister. The last government promised 20 km a day and still didn't do it. That's because there was more involvement of the government. What we are trying to do is get out of that process. We are trying to rectify the animalies in the land law. Not for compensation but for procedures. Procedures are so cumbersome. No infrastructure can come. How much land are you going to take over and how many forests are you going to cut down? Well, every development activity will have a small compromise but that development activity will lead to a much larger return for the common man. Having said that, the forest cover in this country in the last 40 years of your activism has drastically fallen and there are moneys lying in earth forestation accounts which haven't been invested in the last few years. The focus is going to be on actually increasing the forest cover not letting it get depraved. I think that we have lack of infrastructure is a given but you have to go back again in history. We have had incremental approaches. Take one example which is very recent. The Delhi Gurgaon toll highway. Which is just a short instance from here. Six, seven, eight years back we launched it. That's already getting absolutely locked down. We have a very small vision of our infrastructure projects. It's only of late that we started to look at some mega big projects. In fact we have some funny names like ultra mega power projects. Just to demonstrate that we want to do something big. In the earlier years of 60s and 70s I think we didn't have resources. So incremental thinking was alright. Today we need to think very very long term. We don't want to build roads and bridges for 20 years. We have to think of 100 years. India the nation which is consuming cars, motorcycles, transportation is increasing. We need to think very very big infrastructure. The second problem has been environmental clearances. Forest issues. When a country develops there will be some compromises. I have been speaking regularly at climate forums. It's our turn to develop. I don't want agitationist mode of stopping these projects. We have to be careful for our environment. Forests, but at the same time I don't want people who are interested in keeping India poor. Using the bogey of either forests or environment. We have to develop. We don't want the poor India and I object to it. But we want a just India. How can you disagree with that? Why don't you have it dug into your houses in Delhi? Why don't Lachun's Delhi have completely removed because we find iron ore under it? It's always the most poor. The person who has access to power the least. Whom we uproot. Just India I agree with you Arunajee. I cannot disagree with you on that. No it's not correct. Citizens you dub everyone an activist. You ban us. You have the IB report. It's complete nonsense. There are 100 projects. Activists are concerned about the unheard voices. And that's all we are. Well let me pick up. I don't agree to this. Let me pick up with the minister. There are 100 projects which are stopped for the last while. I think it's time we should stop calling development a mafia activity. I think people who are bringing in development into this country are serving this country. I did not. Let me give you an idea of what you've stimulated. I did not say development is mafia. One moment please. This is wrong. You are stimulating responses elsewhere. Picking up what the minister has said. Public sector has made a mess of power distribution. Billions of dollars of losses. The private sector can redeem that sector. Well I don't think public sector has made a mess is the right way to put it. Public sector could have done it better. And with the advent of modern technology with the opportunities that new technologies have brought to the table. For example I'll give you a simple story on underground mining. It is very easy now to bring in technology to underground mining of resources and serve the development needs without creating a problem. But the erstwhile government has brought in a law that you can't do underground mining till you buy the land. So actually where there's an opportunity to develop without spoiling the forest. A law has been brought in that you first buy the forest you spoil the forest and then you do underground mining. I don't understand the logic behind half of this. Well here's a live tweet. Will the government now be willing to gradually move away from coal to cleaner energy. That from Neha Seigal. Incidentally when we inherited government in May 2014 the plan was to do 20,000 megawatts of solar by 2022 but the achievement was 2,900 megawatts. We have scaled it up to 100,000 megawatts of solar which is five times what was planned earlier. We are looking at bankable methods to finance it. We are looking at methods to ensure that land is not acquired but is only leased but gives people a recurring income over the life cycle of the project. We are looking at tripling the wind energy. The wind energy today is about 22,000 megawatts in the country. We are looking at adding 40,000 more in the next five years. We are bringing in nuclear, we are engaging with the world to see how we can bring in good affordable nuclear technology, safe nuclear technology and finally when we inherited government there were at least 20,000 megawatts of hydel power which were at different stages of implementation stuck because of agitations and absolutely irresponsible statements. There was 20,000 megawatts of gas projects which were stranded. Our government is working to bring all of them back in stream so that India's energy security can once again be taken care of. Let's broaden this. There are free, fair and prosperous. Those are the three words in our title. Let's now pick up on FAIR, the next stage of our debate. Here's one live tweet. You're dodging the question. People aren't worried about the fiscal deficit. What about food, work and pensions? That from Pravita. We're joined by Ritika Akerra who's a development economist from the Delhi School of Economics. As a development economist my concern is with fairness and we're quite worried that budgetary allocations for such programs that are meant for the rural poor are quite small. So just to give a small example, it's 0.3% of the GDP for the Rural Works Programme which reaches out to 25% of the rural population. It's only 1.1% for the Food Security Act which reaches out to 66% of the population. As far as the other sector is concerned, just to contrast these numbers, it's about 3% of the GDP of tax revenue foregone, much of which goes to industry. So for instance, it's 60,000 crores for a golden diamond. That budget or that amount is twice as much as the Rural Works Programme. One of the first things that has happened in the past few months is to start talking about restricting the Rural Works Programme on fiscal grounds. But that is not a very adequate explanation. In the past 20 years, the tax base in China has gone up from less than 1% to 20% of the population and in India it has stagnated at 2% to 3%. So there is quite a lot of room for increasing revenues. So my concern really is the mantra sounds really nice, minimum government, maximum governance. But international experience and national experience shows that that mantra has landed Gujarat at number 8 on the Human Development Index and states which have had more active participation in health and education. I'm not talking about roads and mining. I'm talking about health and education and social protection programmes. Those states are today sitting at number 1 and 2 on the Human Development Index. Let me give you just some broader points being made by those in the room and elsewhere. Here's a Facebook posting from Neha Singh. What is the Modi government doing for dire poverty which is present in all of India where the middle class is hardly noticeable? Well, let's go to someone where that is a major challenge. Someone from a village 60km from Jaipur in Rajasthan. Chavi Rajawad. Thank you, Nick. I would agree... Just one moment. Go ahead, please. To a great extent, I would agree with what Arunaji said but also I would go along with what you mentioned, Mr Mathur. But I think we have to get out of the thought process in the mindset of playing a blame game. The government up until now has not been able to hear the voices of the majority which continues to remain rural India. We have not been able to protect the rights of the people in rural India who is talking about education and giving the right focus. Who is working on skill development? Yes, the government is speaking about it. But has it reached the grassroots? Not yet. Are we empowering the governance at the last mile which is what I represent? No, we are not. I mean, a serpent gets attacked who is doing transformational work working on the agenda of the government. So I've seen this with the previous government. Sadly, I have seen it with the current government as well that while we are doing the transformational work the grassroots bureaucracy and the government officials who are supposed to assist you with the work of development cause hindrances. But who is there to listen? So if an elected representative such as myself is not protected by any of the governments how are the people and their rights going to be protected is I think what we need to look at. And I think that is where we need to have a multi-sector approach. We need to have partnerships. The government has not been able to bring about the development that a scale such as ours needs. I don't think scale should be used as an excuse but I think we need to partner to bring about a holistic difference that India needs to see. So in other words what we're seeing there is voices about the concern that the poor and those in the rural communities hundreds of millions of them are simply not getting anything from this Sunil Matal. Well you know, nobody can disagree with the positions that have been put out. One good thing is we have a restless India out there. There are lots of young people, lots of people in the rural area who are wanting their voices to be heard right at the top. I think this will ensure that the government or the business communities or the people who are providing the developmental agenda are having to watch what's being seen in the marketplace. They will have to deal with those very strong negative perceptions. But all I would urge is you have to give this some time. Some of the questions that are being asked here today within a matter of five months of the government coming into position is unfair. Most of the stuff that you talk about lies in the state government's hands. I work in rural India. I've got 280 schools in villages. I work with panchayats. Most of the agenda, most of the issues are with local administration, with the state administration. I'm not saying trickle down here, but for God's sake, let's give it some time. Five months we are trying to judge the 67 years of problems that we have in this country. I think that is being unfair. Minister Goyal, let me just tell you what one tweet here. Solid points being made by all of you on poor inclusion, pro-business from Manoi there. I think this government is more pro-poor and I've had more complaints from the business than from the poor as of now. Are you complaining all the time, Sunil Mittal? More often than not, he's complaining to me. Ma'am, I'll just correct your perspective on one thing which has been a left agenda for too many years. It will be nice for people to understand this concept of revenue foregone is a completely erroneous concept. The gold and diamond which is imported for re-export is the only one which is given any concession. There is no concession for gold and diamond otherwise. This revenue foregone is a concept where when you buy health insurance, you get a tax set off. When you pay for your children's education, you get a tax set off. When you pay for your house rent, you get a tax set off. That is calculated also as a revenue foregone. It's a concept which has been badly misunderstood in the whole lexicon. Also, your numbers about health expenditure, education expenditure is not a part of the budget. The numbers you gave is a part of the public spending of the GDP. But in India, fortunately for India, we have a very robust private education network. We have charitable institutions doing education and health. When you look at the health and education expenditure as a whole private and public, what we need to focus is less on increasing but on quality of that expenditure. Outcomes out of that expenditure, which is where when Madhya Pradesh launches a project for the girl child, when they give scholarships to the children to study, when they give a mechanism by which a girl, when she becomes of marriageable age, has a certain capital and a standing of her own, when we provide various schemes right at the doorstep of the poor, that is what is going to make a transformative change. There's a tweet here. Is the government only partnering with the private sector? Is it in completely ignoring civil society? Is that healthy? Let's go to Vikram Akula, who has been involved over many years in micro-finance down at the village level. Is civil society being taken care of? Are you managing to help people set up small businesses in villages? Well, in particular, when it comes to inclusive growth, I think financial inclusion is a big role to play. In this regard, it's true that the government's Jan Dan Yojana program, which opens bank accounts, is a fantastic, big program, but the problem is even bigger than that. The problem of lack of access to credit savings and other financial products is so significant that it seems to me the government should also be encouraging the private sector, by which I mean private banks in partnership with micro-finance institutions and NGOs, which do have a demonstrated track record of helping to bridge financial inclusion. The previous government was not so supportive, one state in particular, of this private sector initiative. The question that I have for you, Mr Minister, is given the scale of the problem, is Jan Dan Yojana enough? Shouldn't multiple channels of access to financial services be promoted? And if you do believe that the private sector is important in the provision of financial services, what specifically is this government doing to make that happen? In other words, don't just go for big business. There's vast numbers of people out there who want small amounts of capital. I think you'll have to look at the project in its entirety. The Jan Dan Yojana helps people get into the whole mainstream. The financial architecture that India has created over the years has been largely skewed towards urban and the better off or the middle classes. This is the first time a project has been taken where every household in this country is sought to be connected with the banking architecture. They are being given a social security of 100,000 rupees in the case of an accident, a free accident insurance. They are further being given a 30,000 rupee free insurance policy in the event of an unfortunate death in the family. I think this is the first step to taking the subsidy programme right to the doorstep of the people. Once we have an included India where they are all connected to the basic banking system, will we be able to reach out directly to the people cutting across the intermediaries and helping the rural India, the poor India to participate in the growth of the country? How connected is rural India at the moment? You're in the business of telecoms, you're making more profits from it now. As far as telecom is concerned, it's very well connected. I think that's one great story where now you have a radio signal coming at more than 97% of India's geography and we have more than 90% of the population fully covered. That's the delightful part. You go into the deepest part of India. You will find a DTH, a small little dish, put outside the two or three bricks and somebody having a mobile phone. Now to the point of what Vikram made, I think the next big thing is to use these mobile phones to get into a massive financial inclusion because you can do it, you can do it very cheaply and you can do it in a very secure manner. Can I just come in here? I want to start with what she said, which is quite true because I share her world in many ways and I know that young people who are now getting literacy, first generation literacy, first generation graduates are borrowing money to study. You promised 8 million jobs and when they go to get jobs, they don't get them and they are now going to be terribly ill mentally and otherwise because they have bank loans to pay off. They are not getting jobs which I have to pay them adequately. Neither government nor private sector is absorbing them and you are going to have a whole generation of young people with very many chips on their shoulder and angry. That is actually the problem we inherited which we are trying to set, right? But I don't want development. I don't want industry. You don't want power to come into homes. I'm sorry, this is a generalisation I can test and I want to tell you one thing. I have a Dalit woman who is a serpent like you in Rajasthan and every time any one of us says nothing has happened in the last 60 years, she pulls a sari and she says, if you say it for yourself, the people of India have benefited. Let's not have this kind of rhetoric because it doesn't work. I think this government wants to move beyond these caste divisions. Let's move. I think it's not about what the caste of a particular person was. It's about all of India. It's about including India as a whole. We believe it's time now to move out of sectoral politics. You are picking up an unnecessary objective to work on a very serious issue. You must not use unnecessary objectives because India is an Indian society. Indian society is divided and if you say it is not, you are living a life like an ostrich. Aledra Modi on the screen is sweeping the floor and I don't think that we would like to divide the Indian society the way you want it. I'm sorry, Mahatma Gandhi cleaned toilets. He was a much bigger name than any one of us are living today. One of the critical areas which you've all raised is education and skills. You've just put it on the agenda. You have a much honour who is a former head of Delhi Public School. You are now an educationalist and as I introduce you, for example, here is one Facebook posting. It's infuriating to know there are millions of students who aren't getting what they deserve yet education takes the backseat when it comes to spending as a percentage. I think we are all here to find solutions and not sit here and fight with each other. I think that is one point of education that must go to the schools to tolerate each other's points of view and get into understanding. What about capacity? I'm just coming to it. Our education system must depend on understanding how different views exist together and how together we can find solutions. That is my first matter. 229 million kids are enrolled in schools. I represent them. I have worked for 50 years for them, but my heart cries out today because they don't have teachers. 600,000 teachers are missing from schools. Therefore, these kids who go to schools, whether it is rural India or it is herbal India, let us not divide the two. We are India. So, sir, how are you going to solve this problem? That's my first question. Please give me a minute. My second question is that the expenditure incurred in the last so many years on education needs to be, you know, who's accountable for it. Right. Two, three, please. The third question is that who is accountable for bringing quality of education into schools? These are my things. Accountability. Sunil Mital, you run a foundation which is involved in education. We've got a tweet here. Young people, live tweet. Young people want more than of their voice to be heard. They want a seat at the table to design their future that they will live in. What is the deficit of capacity and can it be bridged realistically or not? Well, the deficit of capacity is certainly there, but more importantly, the deficit of quality is massive. It's huge. I mean, you can probably have a lot of schools but have no quality education. And part of the problem that Arunajee is talking about is employability and, of course, enough steps not being taken to employ them. And I share her views and all of us have to share the view. There are 320 million people in the age group of 6 to 16 today. In 10 years' time, there'll be between 16 and 26 and they'll be knocking very hard at the door of society for jobs of being part of what's happening in India. And if you don't harness this energy through either education or skills which finally result in employment, I think we could have a big problem on our hand. Equally, if we can harness them, we have a global workforce. Is it achievable or not in this enormous country? Well, I think there is a lot of work to be done. I would never say it's not achievable. We will be able to take a large part of that into the mainstream if we can all collectively work together and as rightly being pointed out by Mrs Chona here, you know, Madam Curie once said, I do not see what has happened. I only notice what is remaining to happen. A lot needs to be done and I think the government, the people who are involved in development and people who are watching how the development is happening need to be realistic, pragmatic to take this country forward. Minister, you face 1 million new kids entering employment every month. 13 million a year. They need skills, they need education and the population is growing. How much do you feel almost overwhelmed by this challenge given 600,000 teachers short? Not at all overwhelmed. I think it's very much doable. First of all, we need to get out of this pessimism that is set into India. I think the last few years I've created a situation where most of us first start with a pessimistic view that nothing can happen in India. I think what Mr Modi has brought to the table is the first confidence that we can do it and together we can do it. Second thing is we are bringing in into the school education system a more accountable system where teachers are logged for the attendance biometrically. We are using mobile technologies to see whether photographs can be clicked of the school and the teacher, what's set up to the superior authorities. We are looking at mechanisms where we can move the children up the pizza rankings where we are absolutely low as we speak right now. I think the effort will have to be first more towards quality. The effort will have to be more towards getting the students, as he said, employable. So instead of just a routine education, the focus will have to be skill development at the initial stage. We'll have to get people employable, youth shortage in every sector. And what Mr Modi did in Gujarat, he mapped out how many skills are required from womb to the tomb. And it came across 5,000 skills that affect our lives as we go along. Now those are the skills we need to focus on. Let's move on now to our third word, the free India. Let me quote to you about the style of this government that on a transparency scale, this government ranks slightly lower than lead. That from Mitali Saran in the business standard. Aruna Roy, is this a free India at the moment when it comes to free expression? I think it's a free India for some, and it's a very restricted India for others. In the beginning, 6 months ago, when people started critiquing the politics of India, and despite all the stigmas that are being attached to me on the dice, we've criticised the previous Prime Minister, we've talked against the previous Finance Minister, we've talked against the previous Government for corruption, we've had a big demonstration on corruption and the streets of Jantar Mantar. We have critiqued every single Government. And today, if you critique the present Government, there is a fear in civil society that you will be indicted, that there will be cases against you. There were cases against any activist group that raised issues in the beginning there was this fear. You are Anantamurti, a famous writer in Canada who said something was socially hit, he was pilloried, and he's now died, but he's died because of other reasons. But the point is, he was given a one-way ticket to Pakistan just because he said he didn't want a particular kind of leadership. The kind of attacks on social media, a young boy belonging to a minority community was killed in Pune, a young man in Goa who just posted something on his Facebook was arrested, I think this Government will have to try very hard to reassure the people of this country, they can speak freely. We are Amartya Sen's argumentative Indians and we must remember that the biggest tragedy that happened in 1975 to all of us when Mrs Gandhi declared emergency was that we couldn't talk. Indians need to talk, we need to express ourselves, it's a democratic right but it's also a cultural right. We speak and we are not allowed to speak, not allowed to critique, not allowed to criticise and every time we open our mouth we are called anti-development or anti-this or pro that or pro this or isst of this or ism of that, India is not going to develop. Minister Goyal, I think it's very reserved for everybody to be fearful unless she is doing something wrong. Can I just put something into the... But she's contradicted herself, I don't know whether she wants free speech or no. She's about social media attacks but that's the free speech, I don't control social media. No, but the Government is quiet. I don't want to arrest somebody. I don't know what is the text what you're saying. Do you want free media? The Government has not stopped it. Government's job is to prevent the misuse of social media. The Government's job is... So you just let somebody put hateful... No, you have to... Let me hear the Minister please. So let's make up our mind what you want to do. Government, Government there is a... You want us to... Aruna, could I ask the Minister to speak please The Editors Guild was called in off the record to see a lot of editors early this week by Modi. After they had said, the Government in its early days seems to be on a path that runs counter to the norms of democratic discourse and accountability. That was a few days ago. In other words, there is a problem and the Prime Minister recognises this. By the way, the Prime Minister talks but he also works. He's not a Prime Minister who only talks. So he talks when he has to convey a message. He talks in Parliament. But he doesn't take questions from journalists. Well, he takes it when he has to. He's given more interviews than the previous Prime Minister did in ten years. He's given more interviews than the last six months. I think this is relative. So I think what he talks, he talks from his heart. You've seen him in the speech on Independence Day. You've seen him speak his heart out. You've seen him give solutions. He's not one who gets inundated by criticism. He's not one who's looking at a pessimistic world. He's an optimist. He's a person who believes in his ability to perform. He's a person who's confident in his own ability to deliver. And he's a person who has a track record. His track record demonstrates a Gujarat which has no unemployment. A Gujarat where industry is that 25% that you talked of. Share of industry in Gujarat is 10% more than the rest of India. He's a person who has demonstrated skill development in a state. He has demonstrated quality of education. He's a person who brought in innovative ideas. How did he make power 24x7 in Gujarat? Simple separation of distribution. For rural India. There is a view that he's trying to dominate the media space and control it. Here for example, why don't ministers do a monthly town hall with people to hear them address their grievances? In other words, having accessibility. I think this government is more accessible than any time in the past. People must be sick of seeing me on television. I think they've had an overdose of the ministers. I think you must appreciate that in an 18-hour work day we have work to do and less to talk. That's our focus. Neha Sharma, can I ask you? It is one way. We want a conversation. We don't want to listen to you. Aruna, please. Can I ask Neha Sharma? You work for the opinion page of Business Standard. Do you recognise what the minister says about the public space? I think that the government has a very different conception from what the public space is, from what a lot of other people would imagine. This is a one-way sort of communication that the government is talking about. The prime minister does tweet a lot. There are a lot of information is released through official channels. But the back-and-forth between, let's say, the media or civil society or regular consultations is sort of a little short. Definitely for those of us who are in the newspaper business this government has completely closed off access and therefore we don't really know what it's thinking. We don't really know what... I think the sad part of India and India's development story has been, it's been driven only by what happens in the media. This government believes it has to work, it has to work to perform and deliver to the people. It is not that whether I give an interview to a particular journalist or a particular newspaper will be the defining feature of whether I'm working or not. It's the results that we'll talk. I don't want to waste time beyond what is necessary. Which government in the past has had every minister come before the press for a press conference for after the first 100 days and then repeatedly we'll be doing that? Which government or minister has spent three hours? I personally spent three hours after my 100 days got over responding to 68 questions from 14 locations all over India and every question under the earth was answered. I came out with a report card of my 100 days and so did every other minister in this government. We give out information, we take your questions, we answer you but I don't accept that I come out of my house, their media standing there. I get to my office in the corridors there's media. My list, seven media requests I think I have work to do if we want a society or a government driven only by the media I think this government will fall short of that. The people but we will welcome the ideas and that's the kind of engagement. Final point in this debate. Final point in this debate which is reflecting what a live tweet says here it's generally optimistic in this country but in terms of religious freedom we should be gravely concerned he has an awful track record that from David. What's your view Aruna Roy whether Prime Minister Modi representing the BJP which represents Hindu nationalism or the Hindutva is it going to unite religious tensions in this country? If you go by what is happening in Delhi let's not go too far in the last 15 days there's been religious tension in Bhawana, there's been in Drilogpuri and this kind of religious tension is absolutely before elections we had it in UP we now have it in Bihar now question that people are asking they may not ask you because you think it's I who's asking you no, there is a general discussion in Delhi is it an electoral ploy to have these kinds of struggles kinds of attacks and thereby somehow get the Hindu votes others are saying where do you think these attacks are coming from? the instigated this is what people are saying because these people have lived together for years a small quarrel that takes place between two members of the community one belonging to this and one belonging to that slowly spirals up and I when I was an IAS officer was taught that if there is anything like this within minutes you must stop it and the administration can stop it but if there is a political input there then the administration gets weak I don't know what the situation is in Delhi but certainly it's the administration it's the government and it is just under the shadow of the two of the of Lutians Delhi that this is happening Sunil Mital let me put to you do you fear that your optimism even though it's five months in could be derailed by these kind of tensions which could get out of control and create a more unstable India for you to operate in corporately actually quite the contrary I feel much more comfortable on this particular point there are two reasons I mean I in 2008 or sometime there I asked a question to then Chief Minister Narendra Modi about this particular issue and he gave me one answer I still remember my 55 million Gujaratis he said that in Hindi and for me the development and welfare of each one of them is important I got my answer in 2008 today the whole world has been focusing on this particular issue and I think no one else Mr Modi himself is aware what this means for him in the international arena on the international stage he will ensure that there's a development for all is absolutely important for him why would he ever compromise this one of the most important things where India and the world is watching him I personally feel he'll score very high points on this particular issue he may not wear a skull cap particular shawl around his neck but to my mind that has been done for 67 years where are we today so I feel actually much more comfortable on that part that he will be even handed in the development of the society Priyush Goyal as a minister in Mr Modi's new government just respond to what Aruna Roy has said that this is being there are ethnic tensions being instigated for political purposes now I have not come across a single instance where there's been an ethnic tension instigated I think it's time the country looked at India as the first priority India first it's time we started taking all sections of society together this sort of divisive agenda has to stop it's an agenda that certain vested interests are trying to propagate and reignite again and again I think what Mr Modi reflects and he's very categorical about it is that we will have development for all we will have justice for all I know a piecement of one section of the other allegations are always very easy to make I trust the judicial system of India I trust that there has been no genuine allegations which has been found out of all of these allegations Modi wants to build roads for all of India irrespective of caste community creed he wants power for all of India he wants to give jobs to everybody he does not want to segregate society that this road is for this community this road is for another community I think what Mahatma Gandhi stood for is what he's implementing rather than giving lip service he's actually on the ground bringing that uniformity in society justice for all a piecement of none You've raised that question Aruna just one moment you've now brought the whole argument full circle that question is India going to be free, fair and prosperous in 15 seconds each Aruna Roy is India going to be free, fair and prosperous Only if we go back to Mahatma Gandhi's statement that the minority must feel free they must feel confident and they must have they must feel secure in this country the poor must feel that they have a say in what's going to happen in this country and they must know what share of it they will get the women in this country must know what they will get and they must be part of the planning process they have to be participating in it they can't be just targets and we can't listen to any one person saying that's what is best for us we need to decide for ourselves what is best and that's what democracy is all about that's why we give the vote we don't give the vote to make kings who are crowned we give it so that we get a chance Aruna Roy this is a debate which shows that anything can be expressed thank you very much indeed free, fair and prosperous and inclusive Sinol Mital yes or no I remain very hopeful ever than before my own view is we are on a path where we will see a lot of recovery from the problems that we have had a lot of development a lot of happiness in the society and more importantly a responsible society we should move together free, fair and prosperous we come back and talk to you say in a years time will you concede that maybe there are bigger problems looming this is that one time in the history of India that India is feeling free, India is feeling safe, India is feeling secure this government stands committed to the security and safety and freedom not of one or the other section of society but 125 crore Indians male, female majority, minority, caste creed, sectoral I think this is that one time in the history of India where we are seeing all of India united all of India aspiring for a better tomorrow all of India fighting against poverty all of India looking for a bright future for the next generation safe future secure future and the prosperity levels that we are going to see in the years to come will be for all of India not divided India that's not what we want Minister, thank you very much indeed there are though as we've heard in this BBC debate enormous concerns we look forward to auditing what progress you've made in the next few years can I thank all of you our time is up for this debate on the future of India under the new government of Narendra Modi thanks to our panel to all of you who've contributed your thoughts and questions and our global audience around the world on social media, radio and online that's all from the BBC world debate in Delhi from Meenick Gowing bye bye just stay where you are please just stay where you are please everybody so we can get a wide shot over which we can roll the titles I did tell you all to stay in your seats so thank you for being obedient it's free and fair here can I just thank you all very much indeed particularly for your flexibility over the start time Minister, thank you very much as you had for Maharashtra Arun Arroy, thank you very much indeed and Silvan Motel and thanks for all your contributions as well I've only managed to get a short a small percentage in but I think it reflects the direction of travel of concerns and also optimism as well thank you all very much indeed