 One of the problems that I found a lot, I found many, many years is that the average person can't actually picture what a good green future looks like. They don't understand, they can't visualize what rewilding looks like at scale. They can't visualize what it might be like to go on a safari in a traditionally quite nature depleted country. So what comics do is you can go anywhere, any point in time. And if you can draw the thing and you can imagine seeing it can be true. Paul Goodenough is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Rewriting extinction is a global storytelling movement uniting scientists, activists, writers, artists and more to save as many species from extinction as humanly possible. Although the power of all through the power of viral comics. Paul is an Emmy nominated and award winning writer, producer, entrepreneur and environmentalist working across broadcast, comics, digital games and publishing. Paul is the designer and founding member of BAFTA, Albert, Calculator and Sustainability Accreditation used by Netflix, NBC Universal, Warner Brothers, BBC, IMG, Sky, etc. and advises across government and the environmental NGO sector enabling better cohesion and efficiencies. Paul is the founder of Rewriting Extinction, a global storytelling project over uniting over 300 activists. And I had the wonderful great fortune to meet him live at the Global Goals House in Glasgow, Scotland. And I am so glad that you're here. Welcome to the podcast, Paul. So good to see you. Really good to see you too, Mark. And honestly, the pleasure and honor was mine. As soon as I met you at Goals House, I just there was an instant connection and yeah, you have such a natural warmth about you that yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. And I feel the same about you. I really kind of attacked you. I stumbled right upon you and says, I got to have you. You can't go anywhere else. No one else can talk to you because I've been looking at the work that you've done and compiled and really it's amazing. I was a big fan. And the way it happened is I've had Sarah Goldmark, Sarah Greenfield Clark, Greenfield Clark on the podcast. She's wonderful and I saw her sitting there and I went up and hugged her and she immediately then also introduced me and says, yeah, I'm here because the most important comic book on earth and that's really what we're here to talk about and the success of it. And I was lucky enough to to get a beautiful inscription from you. Thank you so much. That's also such a big fan of yours to start out, just really get get some very basic things out of the way that you hear a lot. First of all, you look absolutely amazing considering you've just been on a hellacious world wind tour. We saw each other at COP. You were totally engaged every single day at COP26. But after that, I almost think the schedule after that up until now has been hellacious as well. What have you been doing? How has that been going? Tell us about that. Yeah, no, it's been incredible. It's been lots of different things. It's been incredible. It's been exhausting. It's been engaging and live and empowering, but it's also been the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. So I've actually been on the road now for I think just over five weeks. So we launched in the UK, the book launched in the UK at the end of October. So I was going to places like the Lakes International Comic Fest to introduce it to the audience there. Then I was two weeks at COP, then after that thought bubble and then another continent and another convention. And it's really it's a really beautiful thing because I it's been two years making this this book in this project. And almost all of it has been here in these four walls, just video calling people and you of course you feel inside you as something important and something really beautiful. But it's when you actually get people coming up to you holding your book or saying they've heard about the project and it's changed something in them. That's when you get that moment of just welling up of all the two years of drama and the problems and the sacrifices all becomes worth it. And I've got to tell you actually is one thing happened in the Harrogate, which was at Thor bubble convention. And there was this quite young family and the father and the mother were sort of sort of looking quite hesitant by the table. They sort of like kind of shuffled over and being very, very kind and very and very thoughtful not want to sort of intrude too much. And they said, oh, I hope you don't mind Paul was there with my co-writer Sarah. And he said, your book has actually changed our lives. I thought, OK, that's like a nice thing to say. But actually turned out to be true because what happened in their family was that their children were quite young and the children couldn't find the words or the terminology to describe to their parents what they were worried about, what they cared about environmentally. And our very small, very simple comic books were something they could look at both the parents and the children understand. And the kids literally picked up the book and they'd be pointing at the comic and saying, this dad, this is what I want you to do. And that, yeah. So although, yes, I'm absolutely exhausted, it's those little things that stick in my mind and keep me keep me going. They keep you energized. I'm sure I'm sure many of those things keep you energized as well. And I'm sure you have more stories than that that you've experienced with this book. This book is truly, yes, it's a comic book. It's beautifully done. I mean, I'm just going to show. Even though this is an audio and video podcast, there are just amazing illustrations black and white full color throughout the entire book. It doesn't even do it justice for me just to show you a couple of them. It's an amazing read, but it's also can be put into chunks so that you can digest it as needed. And then when you feel that tipping point or that point where you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm starting to get this existence overwhelming of what's going on. I need to take a pause and come back to it. You can. When I first read it was before you even gave me the signed version. I got more than halfway through the book just on the first sitting. And it's so wonderful. Let's see how it's such a wonderful read. And I want I want to wait a little bit to get into more why I think this is so vital coming up in the future. The second basic thing we need to get out of the way is, oh, my gosh, look behind you. Look at this amazing wall of collectors items books, comic books. You have this is not your first rodeo book, a comic book. So to say you have done Sherlock Holmes and how to train your dragon and many, many more. You're obviously in the comic arena and have been doing this very well and received your accolades. As I as I mentioned in the beginning, I love that because I think that's a vital part. I do a lot with the United Nations for resilience frontiers, the resilience lab and things which are talking about beyond the sustainable development goals. As you know, I'm an advocate, but it kind of gets into how can we build resilience in the system? How can we talk about the future? What is the future that we're moving towards? And and some of those comics or I'd say a good majority of those comics behind you are probably depicting all sorts of future visions or possibilities through visualization and illustration of just because you can imagine it just because you can draw it doesn't mean that we can't also achieve something similar for for humanity. And so I like that quite a bit and and the question is in all these years of experience with doing comics with doing that, how have you seen being almost this comic futurist or this futurist thinking about different worlds and different scenarios? Has that helped you in your your fight towards extinction and your fight towards climate change or fight towards the sustainability that you know you you also have strong feelings on that and and also opinions? Yeah, 100% I often use the the story of Star Trek. Basically Star Trek has helped all of us desire a future that didn't exist at the time. So whether you're talking about the kind of the the diversity and inclusivity of what they actually achieved on the ship or the the technology and the touch screen stuff that they were using. What Star Trek did really well is it presents the future that people wanted and the people could then visualize. And one of the problems that I found a lot I found for many, many years is that the average person can't actually picture what what a good green future looks like. They don't understand. They can't visualize what rewilding look looks like at scale. They can't visualize what it might be like to go in a safari in a traditionally quite nature depleted country. So what comics do is you can go anywhere any point in time and if you can draw the thing and you can imagine thing it can be true. You can make it in a comic and that's why I chose comics is because you can do anthropomorphic stories. You can actually delve into making species talk and delve into their thought patterns there once their desires and needs. But you can also go backwards through time forwards through time. So we've got stories about dinosaurs were one amazing one by diners in comics, which is a transaurus Rex talking to a tortoise. And the transaurus says, promise me you'll look after this world when I'm gone. Is this a dinosaur is not going to live. And the tortoise says, of course. And then the next three panels is a tortoise watching humanity destroy the planet saying I promised. I promised. But it can't stop humanity destroying the planet. And that had millions of views. I should also say for your for your your listeners and your viewers. What we've done with most of the stories to go back to Mark's point earlier is our stories are comic stories are usually into two buckets really. One of them is a multi page narrative story. The other is comic designed for social media. So what we do in those is we make stories that don't have facts. They don't have figures. They're not scientifically led. They're just emotive. They just are there to basically future read the comic understand a little bit about the problem or solution and just have a bit of fun. And that comic, I just mentioned, there was one of our one of our best performing social comics. I think you had like, you know, seven million views, something like that on Instagram alone. And across rewriting extinction, we've had over 115 million views now and we're still making new comics all the time. Oh, absolutely. So that that that I mean, it's it's really unbelievable when you think about it, the the reach and the impact that you can have with this narrative. I want to get it more into that. And the last question on our basic start out is really we've been through almost two years now of crazy. Times, not just the pandemic, but also black lives matters and Asian racism, a crazy inauguration, Brexit and many, many other things, climate catastrophes around the world. So one, I want to honestly know how, how have you weathered that time up until now? How have you made it just honestly and going back to the question that I just asked you that any of those visions of your comics, your drawing, your writing, your your your that whole world that you were submersed into. Did that prove to help get you through this crazy time? Did I did anything snap or change in you? Was there some models or some learning lessons that you can I mean, you depart many of them in here, but are there some learning lessons you can maybe say give us an experience on how that time was for you? Yeah, it was everything you said. It was two years of moments of utter clarity and focus where actually all of the world's external factors just drove me forwards and thought that this this needs to happen. You know, there's whether it's COVID or whether it's the the the social economic problems that the world's facing. That actually spurned me forward because I'm like, you know, no one's really talking about biodiversity loss. No one's really talking about 200 species going extinct every day. This is my mission. This is what I need to do. I need to make sure this is brought to fruition. But there were all some really, really dark times personally. As I expect anyone listening can imagine anyone who's ever tried to organize a party between 10 or more people. It's rough. Trying to organize 10 or more people is rough. And because I'm an easier, I thought I'd try and do, you know, 300 people in all the different time zones across the planet. So I was getting up in the middle of the morning. So sort of two, three, four in the morning to talk to people in Australia and Los Angeles because I should have explained our comics are collaborations. So they're collaborated between people of access to an audience and they care about a matter. An expert who knows the subject matter, usually myself and I'm quite often the gag writer and then a comic writer and artist and between us we come up with the idea. So there was, well, there's been over 180 comics made by writing extinction. I was involved, I would say in over 130 of them. So that's over 130 individual collaborations to manage. And because of COVID and people's mental health during that time, it was just a lot more difficult for some people to be committed as they would be in a normal, professional working week. And also it was, in my opinion, it was, it was, it really helped some people. So some of our creators really loved it because it gave them purpose and something to push towards others really struggled. And because I was, I guess, central to the whole piece, a lot of that kind of the mental health issues and stuff. I was trying to look after basically good few hundred people and look after their mental well-being and also make sure that they felt that their words are being heard and their stories being told. So yes, that was tough. And I really don't kind of answer your question yet, but I'm getting there. So yeah, there was some really dark times. And what I found personally, and I think I also speak for Jenny Jr, who's one of our top creators, is that comic art and storytelling is a vessel. You know, if you, if you basically feel you've got this kind of blackness inside you, this kind of this, this creeping malaise or this, this basically overarching sort of feeling that the world's coming at you. With comics and storytelling, you've got a bucket to put that into. You pour it into it and then you can appreciate it like a work of art. You can step back and say, yeah, this, this is my depression. This is my hope. This is my anxiety. This is my guilt. You've got different stories that kind of represent that. And although, yes, you still feel it inside, it's cathartic and it's helpful. So the answer was yes. The smaller answer, yes, it actually does help. It's like a vessel, a way to release, but also to kind of deal with it in some respect. So I'm glad you shared that because I think it's so, so vital to just follow up on that. Do you think that all this dealing with comics in the past, all your past experiences, maybe helped you through this time a little bit better, made it so that you could, even though you were pulling the book together and, you know, 300. I mean, you have wonderful people. Kara, Delvingi, Jane Goodall, Ricky Graves, Taika, Waititi, yeah. And many, many more celebrities in there. And it's not about the celebrities. It's about the messages in there, but that you were in a position to say, Hey, we're going to get through this. They kind of almost, this is a counselor psychologist, but you're helping them through this, but also showing that, Hey, this is a release or look at what we could have. If we just make a few shifts or if we do this, the outcome could be this. And let me help you visualize it or let me help you understand how to get that into words. Did any of that help? I mean, or did you say, no, I'm so glad I had that experience in the past way before, you know, for all the years you've been doing this? Yeah. So comics are fantastic because they allow you to very simply and easy duck into another world and shorthand your way for a whole life that you've never lived. That's what comics do better than any other medium because with TV and film and music and all the rest, the creator, the editor, the writer, whoever might be the musician, they're defining the tempo of the story and they're also defining your experience of the story with comics. You're in control. You're turning the pages. You're deciding what you're reading and what speed. And yeah, so comics are a really nice way to relax and also just to transport yourself out of a normal world. And that mentality absolutely is central to what I approach the celebrities, the stars, the musicians, the politicians, the scientists, all of whom were involved because it enabled me to enable the most comic book readers and writers to imagine a world that we haven't seen yet. And it's great, you know, because what my mindset and a lot of the people in comics on mind is we used to being, you know, a thousand yards back, looking at a problem and thinking how that world can be recreated. And that was a vision that I've always had for rewriting extinction. And what was behind my and our desire to pull together a collaboration of different charities and projects from all over the world and to not look at the world as borders and organizations and charities and governments, put to actually look at from the point of view of, OK, well, what are the most important species on the planet? What do they do? What do they need? OK, well, let's raise some money and make those things happen and give all of them the best possible chance of survival and rebuild ecosystems so that we don't need human intervention anymore. We just leave them alone. We've given them what they need. Step back, we let, you know, that sort of restoration happen. And it's it is great. And comics did help actually the first original call out that I made to the first bigger experts, activists and celebrities who joined was actually a comic. I made a comic of the project to say, here you go. Here's who I am. Here's what the project is. And here's what we want to achieve. So, yeah, it really did help. And I think. I think for me, also the tangibility of our project, the fact that when people donate to us, they can physically see how much land we're buying, rewilding species that are being saved and the species that are being reintroduced. We actually taught that up on our website. So if you go there now, you can see, for example, that I think we've got 65 acres where we're buying. We've we've actually protected two species from any extinction that be caused by humanity. We've also we've been working to raise awareness. So, for example, in Scotland, there's a half a million acres being rewilded. There's very tangible things. And to go back to your question, that was what was in the original comic. Here are the places in the world we want to affect. Here are the animals we want to save. Here's the money we'd need to do it. I love that. I want you to back up now and let's let's really go into what your goal you're you're hoping to achieve with this book. And I think in some respects, you've already started to almost overachieve on on some of those great ambitions. But that that what you want to do is also very big. It's global. It's deals with species extinction. It's deals with biodiversity. A lot of things that are kind of systemic and tie to one another. But there's or I'd like you to mention the organizations involved in some of the ways that you're doing that. And also, as you as you mentioned, the website kind of how it's already taken off, it's going gangbusters and people are really loving it. Yeah, absolutely. And I need to give so much credit to all of the people involved in the project. So for everyone listening, we have seven beneficiary charities, which is Greenpeace, the World Land Trust, Born Free, Rewild. It's the the Wildlife Trust in the UK, its Reserva and its Rewilding Europe. And the reason those seven charities were chosen was specifically each of them has their own speciality, their own thing they work in that is that links up to a plan that actually restores not just the ecosystems and the biodiversity, but also helps with climate change too. Because what we've done is with those charities, we found the places on the earth that are basically that also that fire breaks. They're the ones that are keeping the biodiversity crisis from getting worse and stopping climate change getting worse. Generally what they what happens in those places that they've been lived on for generation after generation of Indigenous peoples. And those Indigenous peoples have called it their home and they've looked after they've had incredible stewardship over it, but they're under threat right now by illegal mining and by their land being sold. So what we do is one of our main causes with the World Land Trust and Reserva is we actually work with those Indigenous people to buy their land for them so they own their land, which gives them the legal power to resist some of the mining and the meat industry and the people who'd otherwise take their land. So that's one part, the protection. The other part is systemic change, which is where we're working with Greenpeace, which is changing the harmful laws in the business practices that specifically are driving creatures and species to extinction. There are some ridiculous and stupid laws. I don't want to get sued and we're going to name all of them. But as one example on the back of fishing boats, there's the the line that comes out the back. I think that I may get the numbers when I think it was currently about 36 degrees. What happens is Albatross can see that lining at court on the line and they die. By changing the angle, it means that eyes can't witness it anymore. They don't see it. Problem solved. There's thousands of these laws all across the planet that by a small intervention, you can save a whole species. So that's what Greenpeace are doing. And then the third part of what we're doing is restoration, which is rewilding Europe, rewild the Wildlife Trusts Reserve and Born Free. And what those are doing is they're looking at individual species and individual collections of species. In Africa, in South America, in Southeast Asia, Australia, Europe, Portugal, and by the reintroduction of a species like the Tasmanian Devil into Australia, what happens is then the Tasmanian Devil will actually pick up the detritus on the forest and woodland floor, build their homes underground. And because you don't have that highly flammable detritus across the woodlands, it reduces wildfires and it also changes the ecosystems so that all of the species connected to that Tasmanian Devil then flourish too. And also with these species out, I'll just name a few. You've got the mask and bear in Europe. You've got the beavers in the UK, which reduce flooding. You've got the Iberian links. You've got the vulture, the bison. By reintroducing these species just as happened in the walls in Yellowstone, you rebuild the entire ecosystem that they go within. You level out that predator-prey relationship that the actual floor in the fauna starts to flourish. And if by reintroducing these species into these key parts across the planet, all of our homes, all of the areas we live in will be far more beautiful. There will be more. There will be a louder thumb of nature and it will just be the world will be a better place for everybody. People can go and get those experiences they can only get by traveling to Asia or to Africa or wherever. They can get them in their own country. And what a beautiful thing that would be. Absolutely beautiful for sure. That's why the most important comic book on earth. I think the title is so fitting because it's really not just about being the most important book. It's also having the most important impact long term for our future plus there's many pluses and I'd like to hear from you some of those that you're seeing. So not only are you able to buy land, not only you are able to support those charities, but you're also touching the lives of different audiences that are maybe visual learners there. They're at a different level of reception on what type of materials they read and consume. They'd like to see something visual. They want to hear a story. They want to understand that better. Maybe age difference or maybe that's just how they learn to get them that way. It's another tool for parents. It's another tool for a form of media that is hugely advancing. What what else am I missing that that this has it's that almost more I would say more than a 10x impact or factor a multiplier on the different mediums all not only the six senses in some respect, but all these different ways that you're reaching people. Well, yeah, you're absolutely you really hit the nail on the head and the reason I chose comics is because they they have that they're completely non exclusionary. So no matter your educational background, no matter if English is your first or your third or even not if language you understand with visual medium, you can understand things and you can also care immediately. That's what we're here to do. So we're not here to educate people about how many species are going extinct. We're here to educate people about why you should care and also what you can do and hopefully having some fun with it. So we found, for example, we launched a comic with Meet Free Monday the McCartney family charitable project and they emailed us and said this is our best performing post today. We've never had anything this big before and we found with that one. We've got about 30,000 followers on Instagram. 12,000 of our followers saw and liked the post with 326,000 followers completely non environmental. No interest in quite well. They might have no immediate direct interest in environmentalism or biodiversity or going meat free or vegan or vegetarian. So 326,000 people who would never have heard an environmental message heard that comic and that's that's the power of something that is fun and entertaining non preachy non political, but also really easy to digest and to go back to your point about the audiences. We found that actually we I should say we I squarely thought that the audience would be the kind of the Instagram audience between 25 to 40 people who are time poor flicking through something quick and easy. That was my I guess my target. But actually we've definitely nailed that but the book the physical anthology book. That has been really well picked up by a younger audience and over 55 audience and a non English speaking or people from a less people have not had the benefits of a broader education. Those audiences seem to have loved it. So I'd love to say by design but probably more by luck between giving comics away online on social media and the physical book. We've actually got a really nice spread and I think that that hopefully speaks to the power of comics. You've also what now in the second print run or third print run and sold out how many times. Yeah, so so twice which is great. So I think it's the third print run now but it gets a little bit confusing because we're printing in different countries for different languages and so on so forth. So it might be the third for the UK but it could be the first or the second or the fourth in America and it could be the second in Africa. But yeah, we are lucky really lucky. Well, it's it's a very loved project. I was at that convention the other day and we because of COVID is quite rife in the UK. We were expecting it to be quite quiet respectively and we turned up and we thought 100 100 books, you know, that's going to be easily enough and we sold out in in two hours which is wonderful. It was just a big queue of people just really wanting to not only do something tangible because each book roughly can get about each book roughly equates to the value of about three meters of rainforest that we can purchase afterwards. So it's a very easy tangible thing. Okay, by that book three meters of rainforest is going to be fine. It does other things too but there's a combination of people wanting to help but a bigger a much bigger audience of people who like I just want to read a comic by Jane Goodall. I want to I want to see what Alan Moore, for example, is who's retired from comics and came out of retirement to do the comic for us and we're the only place you can see that. So there was fans of all of the individual contributors. There was fans of environmentalism and then there's just people who just have this curiosity to see what the fuss is about. And yeah, and it's meant that we've been number one in the book chart since we launched. We're also being picked up as kind of the book of the year by a few different places and yeah, we're officially a best seller, which is wonderful and what that does is it has a media impact, you know, because we're a very short term. So we have very short term tangible solution. So if we get the money in one week, we can go the next week and say, hey, can we go get that land please? Can we stop that destruction of that bit of land over there by purchasing it? So yeah, it's so beautiful. My goodness. To be involved in such a project and even as someone who just purchases the book as once you've finished it is such a I'm sure it's such a satisfying thing to be involved in that and it's also the ticklings or the beginning steps of that empowerment or that education on it's not too hard to actually get involved and helping rewrite extinction, helping to the things that are going on in our world from losing species to climate change that are all kind of interconnected and tied together. There is wonderful sections in here about extinction rebellion and talking about how people who were police officers and people who were artists and creatives somehow by happenstance or by accident kind of got put into that where they said, okay, I didn't think that was my thing. Then the more I became aware or I would go on a trip to Switzerland and see the destruction of the glaciers and the places I love to hike and then come back to where I lived and there was these movements going on and these little stories through comics that were so beautifully told of how can you find your right place to kind of get involved and every every one of us is at a different place of learning where we're at. You know, some of us are maybe huge carnivores and drive a big SUV and we're just in a different place in our world of how we live and interact but then through understanding how the world works and what's going on that flips the switcher or picks us up where we're at to look into it a little bit further and I think this is such a beautiful work that really does that well in many ways. Thanks. No, you're you're you're most welcome. I'm going to give you tons of accolades because because you really deserve them. This is is a great work and I don't want it to end. I want to the second most important comic book on Earth. I want I want to see multiple versions of this and that's what I'm kind of talking now a little bit about some things and I want to know if you're already doing them if you're planning on them if there's things in the future coming up and I want to touch on a bunch of different ways. So just recently we had this big release from Mark Zuckerberg the the metaverse which you know good bad or ugly it is what it is. But there's a lot going on with NFTs especially in the in the in the comic arena or our work arena as well. Crypt tokenization cryptocurrencies with NFTs and that is there anything like that planned these future ways to get even another audience in there and the reason I ask you and it's no funny business I'll be very honest when Mark Zuckerberg first and maybe this is where I get controversial when he first announced it. He within the first few minutes he says my favorite game is Arizona Sunshine which is a zombie shoot-em-up game. I don't know if you're you're well aware of that and then about an hour or maybe even two hours into it or quite a bit into it. He says and I'm so excited to to announce the Rising Star my favorite game of all time Grand Theft Auto San Andreas fall night my job outfall fell off I'm a grandpa I have four adult children five grandchildren or fifth grandchild on the way and no matter how much I like my quest no matter how much I like augmented reality no matter how much I love comics a game that in the future is stealing cars prostitution rape shooting people you know this violence and theft that's not the future that I want it's a very dystopian and how can we get good futures out there to that same metaverse to that same NFTs how can we have clean NFTs that are helping us at the same time pay for rainforest pay for land pay for different things what's on the horizon there and what are your thoughts or feelings in that in that direction. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. So the first one in terms of things that we're doing we've got a clothing deal with Rapa Nui also as T-Mail so people because people being contacting us regularly about saying they want some clothing made that kind of has that feel that vibe that we've got so that'll be coming in terms of NFTs is a bit of a subject I'm not a complete new but I do know quite a bit about NFTs at the moment I'm trying to see if there's a carbon positive way we can do it and if there is then that will potentially be a thing because I belong to the clean NFT discord group and I probably have the most advanced compendium on clean NFTs that there is so I'll send you the invite and that so that you can have it. Yeah absolutely Mark and I'll be amazing because I would with NFTs I want to do something that goes more than goes further than being clean actually does something that is continually positive and that's why what that's basically I think the way that the world will work actually your your vision of the future I think is probably more like to be true than Mark Zuckerberg's vision as a future I think where people want to make their purchasing choices and their entertainment choices because they know they're one guilt free and two helping become more and more of a thing you'll see more brands trying to align themselves to charity projects and to things that actually benefit the planet and I'm involved in another project called Rewired Earth which is basically looking to help the investment sector the financial markets understand what people want from them in other words where they want to see their money invested and also gives is a little bit like food labeling so every investment will basically say it's red amber green for the planet red amber green for people red amber green prosperity and red amber green for governance so anyone who is buying any product anywhere and is investing in any company anywhere will very simply be able to see if that company or that product is good or bad for the planet and people and so on so forth and what that does then is that drives the companies who have red red red red to want to become green green green and I think it's going to be more of a thing that your vision the idea that actually in the future companies brands big players will be like it will be a race to the front to be the the most positive for the planet and the most beneficial to people and actually I am stupidly optimistic that the actual the way that the future will be is in everyone trying to be to be the champion of who's helping the most competing to be champion that's a beautiful vision I think it's true and also also one of the things I'm trying to do as well is create some TV shows and so I might get like a dog poo through the post Charlie Brook for saying this but what he did for for black mirror I want to do with green mirror basically pointing forward to a future that is environmentally like organized but still has like that still has that same sort of like really beautiful satirical story 10 still those moments of joy and depression in like utter heartache that he gets in black mirror but with green mirror so yeah I'd like to do that but this music to my ears I can't believe it I cannot tell you there's at least more than a dozen podcasts that I've done where I always try to interject my mainly with directors and TV series producers or even authors documentary filmmakers I've really tried to have this conversation and I want to have it with you as well because you just brought it up that that's the biggest reason okay all pretty much we have Ted talks we have black mirror and then what we see on on TV is really dystopian futures it's fighting over competition over resources it's a these gray dystopian sci-fi futures the talking fridges and not really any I mean what I just mentioned about Mark Zuckerberg the metaverse I don't you know I'd like to I'd like to have a metaverse that shows us the the resilient desirable regenerative futures these futures that we can achieve and create and I I I want to know a couple things so I call it movie magic like they did back in Star Trek like they do in black mirror but I want to do the movie magic that shows us what if we achieve all the sustainable development goals by 2030 what if we yeah what if we achieve all this by 2050 what does that movie magic make that world look and feel like so that I can say whole that's pretty exciting I think I want to live in that future and I'm an architect I'm an engineer I'm a comic book artist or writer and now I'm going to do all I can to create that narrative that story or engineer create an architect for that future in comic books if you're trying to build this future for it's not movie magic it's it's just comics what is it is there a term for it that that that you're creating these non dystopian futures and visions that people can see and feel and say they open the book say oh actually that's pretty good I'd like to let's engineer for that is that possible what do we need to do yeah I mean you're definitely preacher to the converted that is something that has been on my radar that I'm actively working on and active trying to do right now because how can we possibly tell people there's a better future without presenting it to them they need to know what what great looks like they need to know that that it gives people hope as well and it unites people it's so you're saying about architects architects do don't know they they draw like the building or whatever it is that they're designing and you go oh that looks wonderful let's make that vision happen we need to do that with environmentalism not in this kind of worthy science driven way but just like come on guys this is so much better imagine you could just jump in your car and go and see I'd like a bear right like just a few like miles down the road and as you could see some of these wonderful creatures that used to be used to live in our country but now being pushed out for extinction we can reintroduce them we can build a better world you can do things like take take trips and actually you know it's actually benefiting the planet rather than depleting it and it would just be all of us could just live a much happier life and actually not feel that the kind of the existential dread and guilt that we all feel right now because it's very very hard currently to make good choices you have to really really think all the time about your choices and you also have to have a level of knowledge and expertise and education to make the right choices. But if we can actually present a future where that that's taken away and actually we know we fundamentally know and understand that the things that are in place the systemic things are in place are actually benefiting the planet. How cool how cool would that be to not have these like these sleepless nights like oh do I go to this one let me go do a thesis on which one's better. And I see that's why I take it as even a step further so that's why I'd like to see more issues of of this or something along the lines come out and also the movies or the TV series that you come on. I would like to see something that as a series that every week you can guarantee once a week there's a new series coming out. That's that's whether it's the desperate housewives of 2030 or whether it's that yes you know something that just shows what is it look and feel like in 2030 and that's there's no bit of dystopian we still have problems we still get divorced and fight or whatever else is in you know just life. But we're not we're not killing each other we're not setting up borders and walls we're also not living in this dystopian world that that humanity is found a balance to say okay and this is what the sustainable development goals do it for me and also the resilience development goals are resilience frontiers does after the 2030 is it sets the bar higher it says this is an entirely new operating system for our planet and we're never going to let humanity go below this level again and that goes for species as well we basically say. No we're not going to have 200 species die every single day or whatever the number is that's unacceptable we're setting the bar higher and the entire globe is going to commit to the standard and it's not only an alien in a liable right for every human being on Earth that's an inalienable right for all species on planet which we need for our survival as well fish go extinct if species go extinct bees start having problem and disappearing that affects us our basic energy sources tied to that buy on that ecosystem surviving and thriving and the more we destroy that choke off our planet with greenhouse gas emissions and fossil fuels and bad air the worse it gets and so let's flip that switch start living within the planetary boundaries but raise that bar and so I feel that materials like this constantly bombarding us just like all the dystopian things we I mean there's plenty of Netflix or TV series to choose from that don't bring you a hill of beans they're great to watch and entertaining but they don't really give us anything to strive for they're just we're turning into mindless zombies one idea I had and I don't know if you have a comment to this or not is a what's the the big is a big mama Terry oh yeah big mama's house you mean yeah but what's the actor's name isn't it Terry you know who I know and what you want to ask you a question that you know and you're like Terry something but anyway he owns this the biggest production studio in the United States is bigger than a couple production studios and I think that's where they do the walking dead and many others got a full scale White House building there and anything but instead of you know doing a series of eight nine ten episodes however many they did of the walkie-dove list to that many of the walking 2030 or the thriving 2030 whatever we want to call it and just show that vision okay we've got all electric vehicles were using wind and solar and hydrogen green hydrogen we've you know we've gotten off of fossil fuels or we're really restoring areas we're thriving we're in abundance and yet they're still drama they're still divorce there's still this this narrative that's fun to watch but you're just like wow that'd be cool I want I want to live in that world let's start working towards that but we need to have something after we leave that job in the coal miner and you know at Facebook that we can have to vision something else instead of sell let's let's play another hour of Grand Theft Auto and I've got to give really big credit to people like yourself and and all the visionaries out there because that's we won't reach people by saying Tyler Perry now now I'm sorry sorry that's right we won't reach people by saying 200 species going extinct every day because it's a number that you can't feel you have to have storytelling is a really one of you so many times in in talks and things to give you one little anecdote and then I'll get back to your question and there was a figure I heard a fact I heard that a billion creatures in in the live off or in sea every day are being affected or killed by plastic pollution a billion it's impossible you can't you cannot physically understand that number you can't picture is your brain can't cope with that's that that's sort of size and scale. Jenny Jinnia made a comic about an Albatross mother who is looking to feed her chick something and she was flying around and all she could find was plastic pollution so she was feeding her chick cigarette butts little bottle caps and unfortunately she couldn't understand why her chick was getting more and more sick so you get feeding more and more plastic to her chick and the chick died and in the comic the the loving Reaper who's changed character talks to the mother and says you know you did all you could it's not your fault and this mother is left with her dead chick that story has been seen by tens of millions of people and what it did it humanized what sea birds go through every day. So to go to your point we need to make stories and I specifically am working on stuff exactly like you're talking about short film TV series broadcast where actually climate change and biodiversity isn't isn't the focus a good story is a focus but it bleeds in that environmentalism and I need to make two more quick points that will hopefully there's plenty of time I've talked too much I want to hear your stories that's about you thank you it's not about me at all everyone out there is doing that bit but there's one there's one of these two things I think is particularly helpful in the UK in the 1980s there was a law passed that people had to put on their seat belt before they drove and there was an advertising campaign that had this little fun little ditty it says clunk click before you take that trip and it was widely reported that basically that little fun ditty stopped people from being killed in car crashes because they then had the little ditty in their head and they put the seat belt on but that's not true it wasn't the advert that made people put their seat belt on it was a little little kind of I guess standard or law that was passed that whenever people got into cars the director the editor had to show someone put their seat belt on before they drove which meant that it was subconscious behavior when we sit in a car we in start reaching for the seat belt to put it on because it's the expected behavior that's what we need to do for environmentalism so that the right choices we make are expected to behavior and we see it everywhere so whether it's in a film or documentary whether it's in reality TV show we see people making the good choices and it becomes learned behavior that we don't think about it's not a conscious thing you think oh I'm going to separate my food waste I'm going to find the right place to recycle this it just becomes a thing that people do without thinking and the second point is I need to give incredible props support and love to BAFTA Albert which you mentioned before and for people who don't know I was involved in BAFTA Albert from I've been involved at different levels for many years it is start place was a calculator so every hour of broadcast the broadcast we put in all their numbers tell them how many tons of carbon we're getting used per hour and then based upon the information they put in it would make recommendations of how to reduce that number and at the end of the process if the total tonnage of carbon was over a certain threshold it would not be broadcast wonderful thing one of the most proudest moments of my life to be involved in it and that involves Netflix as you're saying NBC Universe or Warner Brothers BBC Sky broadcast all over the world and what happens every year is they reduce that number down and they offer better advice about how to improve the for example the catering or the transport and every year thousand or thousands of tons of carbon are saved every minute of broadcast because of that tool but that is the systemic change but what Albert are doing now is also advising all of these big broadcasts to say make better environmental choices part of your normal programming remit so you have the walking dead show subtly but not in a judgmental not in a sort of heavy hand heavy-handed way show the impacts environmentalism or good behavior looks like so that is a message going out to the whole broadcast industry across all of the world to say make better choices in what you commission in what you show so that is happening now so you'll see in the next five to ten years gradually it will be background but in the background of all the shows you're watching the good broadcasters will start putting things in there beneficial things for the planet inside their normal broadcasting and for me that is where we'll change the world it won't be by people like me making a very hopefully but it will be me but people like me making a very specifically targeted environmental project it will be by reaching the 80% of people who normally can't or don't care about it then being educated subtly carefully and lovingly on the shows you already know that's where the for me the world would change and yet I just want to give Albert and all the people involved just a massive massive deal of credit because people don't hear about them and they're fantastic. Yeah, they don't hear about it and it is it is fantastic but it's also a way that you turn that movie magic into reality in a lot of respect so not only they putting new movie magic in on how to live in the future or what's very good for the environment and species in the future but then they're slowly applying those practices in that movie magic process and so that there are really ways I mean in the walking dead there's a lot of positive things they started to grow their own food and have their own animals they really did solar and I think even try to do wind then they fought over I think oil making or gas making process for for a while which was which was very put in a very negative light and I think that whether you look at that or if you look at games of thrones I think if if we get more of those positive messages or how do we project a different living way in the future it's all it's really fabulous and there was I just opened up the book that I want to come back to you but there's and I hope I it's okay to show these but you know the question boy that's a cool iPhone where did you get it how much did it cost and then you know there's all well tells the price but really how much did it cost there's a there's a child that had to mine rare metals and and and horrible conditions or how much debt did it cost the trees that were cut down the total environmental cost the true cost and sometimes that's just not clear we don't think beyond the end of our nose and I love how in many respects not only the comic book but in your thinking and the people you involved 300 people involved in this project are really thinking long term they're thinking about the future how can we start now to get some of these stories and these different mediums to present those those different futures you've already touched on a couple of these questions already but I want to go more specifically and give you some harder questions now let's do this so in 2018 the entire world switched to a systemic approach all international organizations world trade organization UN World Economic Forum on and on World Bank all switched to a systems view of life approach meaning they started to implement systems into their models to solve global grand challenges meaning that instead of taking siloed approach or just addressing one facet of our global grand challenge or a problem they says no the only way we're going to solve this is through a systemic approach we need to address all the facets of a complex problem or a global grand challenge and and address all of them to solve the problem and that happened in 2018 by doing this book how do you feel about this a systemic approach that we're taking and you believe as well that that's the only way to solve our global grand challenges or do you have other opinions on that I don't believe it's the only way no I believe it's absolutely part of the puzzle they have that that thing they say that they take 20% of the world to actually change the world and what we need is the systemic part at the top of the tree top of the pyramid if you're wearing a photo the systemic part gives us the structure to control how business operates our government operates and how we actually deliver and deliver a set of objectives that everyone can sign up to but that won't change the world it we also need that individual behavioral change and the individuals to basically rise up and say that I will support the big global systemic changes politicians businesses shareholders they do what they think is right for their constituents and the people who are basically funding their things if we as a population don't give the signals to those people that we will support the changes that are going to save the planet they won't do it it's very easy to attack politicians and governments and say they're not doing it they don't care but the reason they're not doing it often is because they don't know they'll get the support for it they don't know that people will be prepared to go through the changes in their life that will be necessary for that systemic change it takes all of us all throughout all those levels we all have to push in the same direction and I was actually chatting to some of the day who made a really good point is like if someone says we as a global nation need to reduce our carbon by 60% or 50% whatever it is it's very easy to say well I didn't my piece is not going to make any difference that big figure because your one piece doesn't but if that's 8 billion people of course it does it's much better to say we all at all levels need to reduce our carbon by 60% there's like oh okay that's an individual behavior I need to make and that is where the world will change where people making small loads and loads of small choices that are better and the governments and the businesses making the big choices that give the framework for the machine to start being a force for positivity which it isn't right now and I need to fill me to just re-mention rewired earth because it's exactly what we're looking to do there which is systemic change with businesses and the 90 trillion plus of investments that happen but based those investments are going to happen going forward on a specific global bit of research we want to do what we talk to as many people from more of the planets we can really big scale user research piece but we understand what are the positive things that people want to see businesses and governments invest in so we get the really big sentiment analysis from a global population saying what do you care about then we present that to those 90 trillion plus of businesses and say if you invest in these things these people will love you your share price will go up but also you'll do more for the planet and also you'll be getting people to support you and your work because they know that you're doing what they are asking for and yeah so that I think my long answer was what I said and my short answer is no I don't think it can just be systemic it has to be people driven to are you a global citizen and how would you feel about the removal of all borders walls and limitations separating humans one from another well your understanding of this and did it change once the pandemic hit was your view different before the pandemic and is it different now now I've always considered myself to be a global citizen actually wrote and writing a comic series on it at the moment called extinction 2040 which is part of an anthology called the 77 which is all about that very thing all about the the removal of borders in a kind of a global population I think if you're it I think and have worked in what's called future threats future threats as what governments and businesses look at and say what are the big scary things coming down the line that we should be aware of for me one of the biggest threats facing humanity is climate migrancy on a global scale when the global self particularly will heat up to such an extent you can't make food there and it's becomes unliveful for humans that will see a mass migration which could then cause a push for more extremist behavior more far right politics to keep borders safe and so on so forth which would be a concern but also I think the other big threat is that people start what we call a threat or it's a good thing but people will start to identify more with people who feel and act the same as them as opposed to people who live close to them and I think that's true of all of us whether we want to admit it or not I have so much more in common with someone like one of my friends from Northern Smarcha than I do with some people who live a few doors down for me I have nothing in common with them often you know I do the only thing I have common is locality and what what basis is that for being friends I mean I don't know I'm still friends with them but you know I mean it's not it's not a value judgment it's a location based judgment whereas punky for example in in Northern Smarcha he's one of the dearest people on the planet and we think and we respond to things in a very similar manner and I think that's what's going to happen I don't think the walls of tomorrow will be between say England and USA I think it's more likely to be between groups large supergroups of people who feel the same way about something with large supergroups of people who fill the opposing way that will be will be the the change and that the piece of work I was doing on that about future threats was all around what would it look like if we didn't have for example you know a US army or a British or a French army what would it look like if we didn't have a US UK or French border force what would the world look like if a whole group of young people all over the planet renounced their national identity billions of children said I don't want to be American British can tell us what what what came out of it or what you saw or what yeah well that you could you can buy the comic it's an ongoing series okay in the 77 and yeah it follows basically a group of young young teenagers who get conscripted into the kind of border force and what they're doing is they're trying to keep borders open or they've been told by the government need to keep the borders open they don't necessarily feel that way themselves but there's not much employment in this world because they're trying to hang on to consumerism and the capitalist environment so these young teenagers are being conscripted into almost like a warlike service to fight for things they don't believe in and that's the basic crux of stories as a group of four teenagers being pushed into a war zone whereby there's a criminalization of people who feel exactly like they do so yeah so I can tell you what I think about it but it's easier to buy the comic yeah well I'm going to look it up and put a link in the show description as well as all the links that you sent me about rewriting extinction the the global citizen question is really kind of interesting it's also interesting and rewriting extinction because during the pandemic when we were in lockdown when there were really nations and borders more so than we've ever seen boy bird species animals they were all still moving across borders food was moving over food was definitely a global citizen the humanity kind of was on lockdown for for for the most part some of us were wise enough to get moving and so it's interesting to hear that you know how do we make ourselves so much different and or separate ourselves from other species when it comes to global maybe global citizens the wrong word maybe it's global species that that you know crew member spaceship earth yeah I'm yeah I think there's just as always just so much you can learn from the animal kingdom you know I mean it's unfortunately no matter how you I think no matter how all of us feel about the pride from where we've came from and our cultures I think all of us can recognize that there's a thin line between being proud of your culture and the people you live with and what your culture represents and that being something that can be hit over somebody else's head and it's it's I would never want to cry anyone being proud of who they are or where they come from or their country but I also think that everyone should have the freedom to make their own choices and to yeah I think when it comes down to things like the enforcements that's where I start to feel far less comfortable because why would I say it you make a sigh in your voice like it's definitely not something easy no it's not and it's there's so much emotion and history and family and culture wrapped up in it and we always have to be very aware all of us that you know the life that I've lived is different to yours and different to everyone I was listening here we don't necessarily have the same background and we've not trodden the same path as they have but it just to me it seems sensible that there should be the capacity to link hands with somebody who isn't born in the same street the same area the same state or country as you and to look at that person say you know you're my brother or sister and you know we're in this together you know that seems like a beautiful thing to me in fact you've just sparked a memory that I probably shouldn't say I'm gonna say anyway so when was it COP26 we went into somebody from a Middle Eastern delegation who they were being pressured to leave their their fossil fuels in the ground and their point was we're being pressured by the USA and UK and other other countries who've greatly benefitted from fossil fuels and being told that we can't extract them but those fossil fuels will help to fund our education the furtherance of our nation you know we're under 70 years old you know your houses in the UK how can you in all conscience say we shouldn't take this oil out in exploiter and and also they made the second point which I'll get back to they made second point where he said also climate change is not equal climate change for their country would mean a rising of sea levels which give them access to fresh water they don't have right now that could be a benefit so I counted that argument for both the arguments the first one where they said you know you've benefited why should we not and I think that's like saying my brother was a bully my older brother was a bully therefore it's okay for me to be a bully it's like no that you've learned something we have a nation we know things as a world we know things we didn't know back then it doesn't mean what happened from developed nations abusing fossil fuels is okay for newer nations to also abuse it yes we need equity and equality so that the newer nations are able to benefit from some of the things that we've benefit from of course is as a other countries but that doesn't mean it's okay to make the same mistakes twice you know just because you've seen someone else do bad behavior doesn't mean it's okay for you to and and the second point they made which is when they were saying about climate change would mean fresh water for their citizens and that could be a good thing that about you my bus seems like saying oh yeah I know that person's on five but my hands are getting quite nice and warm from them yeah that's exactly like saying so you know it's like so we need to have so many million people die and be displaced you get to enjoy some fresh water and then what once they have that fresh water does it become a commodity then is it protected by nations and borders from military is it then only for them and then the rest are left to fight so there's so many things that come up come up on that as well one thing that came up as you mentioned that is really and I see it where I'm at as well in Germany is the fact that we're stuck into some of these fossil fuel situations that that we're in just you said you know our some of our homes are older than the history of their country you know or or or that but that also means that that infrastructure of those homes are still stuck on some outdated non very not very good for the environment fossil fuels you know oil oil coming natural gas or propane or you know kerosene or whatever it is in some of these homes that are sitting on outdated infrastructure that's not in very efficient not a very good for our air quality and things like that as well as well as you know all over the world we don't realize what a big impact air conditioning and cooling does you know on the inside it's nice and great and that ambient temperature HVAC and cooling is great but on the outside is blowing out hot heat out into the streets and and that's another form of global warming so it's not I wish it was that easy but I'm glad that you brought that up and that you mentioned the last and hardest question I have for you it's not the last question but it's the hardest question that I have for you today but I know you're well prepared it's what does a world that works for everyone look like for you not for others just for you what does a world that works for everyone look like for you so I actually do have an answer for this so yeah I'm I'm completely ill-prepared but I have an answer for me it's it's where the relationships you have and the communities you live in are supporting you and each other sounds very vague thing but what I mean by that is that you have localized power food production education and you have some autonomy about how that's handled the so for example what I mean by that is that generally the people who best know the environment and the way of what's best for them is usually the people who are local to that area so for example here I live in Wiltshire in in England I and the people who live here know exactly what would be really beneficial in terms of the the actual topography here the trees the species but also what we want so having some sort of autonomy of education food production energy for me is the way forward rather than a systemic approach of top downing all the decisions like you have with the global citizens assembly bottom-upping them so basically the people who are living in those communities have the agency to affect the choices for them so we don't also therefore feel that okay over in for example over in Hong Kong we have this wonderful financial system we should have that financial system it's like that shouldn't be what we base quality on quality should be on the happiness of the people inside and yeah I think I've laboring the point now but that that's what no you hit you hit it on the nail on the head perfect local economies local futures I really like that and I I'm also big believer in that also got to come from the bottom up you know there's a lot of global decisions that are made that Harma a lot of us you know there's decisions and and the rainforest from Bolsonaro from president of Brazil that are be made that affect us all around the world and vice versa in other countries so we we really need to to find act local and think global in some respects but I like these local futures last three questions are for my guests are not for my guests my listeners those who will be listening to this something that they can take as a sustainable takeaway from you that has the power to impact their lives and and basically if there was one message or even a few messages that you could depart that has the power to change my listeners life so I should start by saying I never consider myself an expert just a normal guy I just like writing stories everything I've learned in this these two years has been picked up by listening to people are experts the first thing to do is to listen to the people who know don't listen to your own prejudices your own bias I have loads I had even more back in the day there are people out there who know what they're talking about and they've researched this stuff and they can actually help you listen what a doctor you know there's there's the planet isn't ill health you shouldn't be listening to your slightly mad auntie who's got their own opinion on something something go listen to the experts and specifically tangibly I've got to tell you a quick story about Richard Curtis who mentioned this story to me there was a lady working and she spent her entire life fighting cancers particularly lung cancers so surgically or medically and when she was getting to a certain age she'd build a bit of wealth and she went to ask her financial advisor you know what actually where's this money where's it invested what was it doing and she actually found out that it's being invested in tobacco and so she found out that her entire life she dedicated her entire life to stopping lung cancers and her money had killed thousands more people than she'd ever saved so if there's one thing I'd say to your listeners go to places like switch it dot green they allow you to see where your money is if your money is in the wrong place that's like buying matches for an arsonist your unfortunate is not your fault but unfortunately your money is actually probably doing far more harm than you ever know and make my money matter which is Richard's charity which looks at where how your money matters they've worked out that your money will do 21 times more harm or good than you could ever do by not flying not eating meat restoring environments so the simple easiest thing and it takes under half an hour move your money to somewhere that's helping the planet really really simple if you're other ones clean your oven ovens uses loads of extra energy if it's dirty clean oven will actually save lots of money from your energy bill do great for the planet and plants clover rather than grass in your lawns if you plant clover your tract pollinators you will massively increase the biodiversity not just for your own home but on what called wildlife corridors so basically pollinators will be moving they've got clove the land on they will bring in other wildlife wild flowers and then you're basically you're also provide a stopoff point and you're much more likely to see a rise of not only biodiversity and flying insects and pollinators but the food in your local area will benefit to so yeah anyway those those three money that's clean oven and pollinators I love that boy that's the best answer I've had yet what should young writers artists innovators in your field be be thinking about they're looking for ways to really impact their own life but also make a make a dent in the world to feel like there's hope and be optimistic yeah well if if you're creatives we're always looking for more people to rewrite extinction at the moment it might look that rewriting extinction is a group of very worthy very kind of professional people kind of telling the world what they should do that is not what we're about at all we're trying to bring as many people from all of the world to tell their stories of how their rewriting extinction. So maybe you're doing like a really cool thing locally maybe you're not doing very much but you want to you know tell your story you know that's what we need and what we'll do and we'll also run competition soon and we'll be highlighting some of the best storytellers so yeah get in touch let us know with love chat to you that's amazing what have you experienced or learn in your professional journey so far that you would have love to know from don't try and get 300 people can't you do onto one book during lockdown is is harder than you think even if you think it's really hard it's hardly think I say that with a little bit of obviously bit of humor but what I would say is that the thing that I would tell myself back in the day is when you're writing stories don't make the message you're trying to get across explicit keep it implicit so with some of my past stuff you know I was trying to basically help people say hey well this is really good stuff you should care about and I did it when I was trying to think about kind of things around LGBTQ plus rights BLM environmentalism has a little bit heavy-handed with it and I think usually being heavy-handed with stories is what makes it divisive so we've seen it with lots of like particularly re-imaginations of 80s brands where they've taken 80s characters and they've changed maybe the identity or the gender or the race of one of the characters and it starts this big flame war I think if you can be helpful by sort of putting your arm around the original fans and saying I understand your love and your desire for it but let's do some stuff that's adjacent to it rather than direct do some adjacent stuff that would be something that I would teach myself and there's a particular project have in mind that that I don't think we'll ever see the light of day that I'm specifically talking about it yeah I've made some very different choices now and it's put it that way Paul rewriting extinction the most important comic book on earth it's been a sure pleasure to get an insight into your ideas thank you so much for letting us all inside of your ideas and taking the time and going into my crazy in-depth questioning any way I can work and help on on a series on a movie TV I would love to help I think we're aligned and that's the future we need I appreciate the kind words and this is amazing work and it's also already having a huge impact so thank you very much for your time that's all I have unless there's something you forgot to let us know or you wanted to say I'm done and I really appreciate your time now I just wanted to say thank you though mark and you probably make more difference and impact more people than you'll ever know and it's people like you who should be on the stage not people like me I like building stages not being the rock star so like taking the time promoting what we're doing the rewriting extinction and just just being a great guy and yeah and also the question for fantastic I really enjoyed them so thank you thank you so much and you have a wonderful day and I hope our past costs very soon we'll stay in touch take care now thanks Paul