 Welcome, everyone, to the first session of the Agile Mindset theme. Today, the first session is for Kathy Burkage. She is taking a session on mindful Agile leadership. We are glad that you could join us. So without much delay, let's get started. Over to you, Kathy. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Fincy. I hope you can all see my screen. I don't have a lot of slides, and there's not much on my slides, but I just wanted to make sure you've got something to look at. You can see my name, Kathy Burkage. I'm from Melbourne, Australia. I'm joining you, of course, from an interesting day here in Melbourne. It's lovely to be here. It's a shame that I can't be there in person, like all of us, but we are making the best of it. I'm an Agile coach. I'm an Agile trainer. I spent more than 15 years working with Agile teams. So leadership, when we think about leadership, it's good to have a bit of an understanding of a definition. So goodolddictionary.com says leadership is a process of social influence where a person, i.e., the leader, secures the support and help of others to accomplish a shared task. So the leader isn't telling anybody what to do. They get support for people to join in and to do something together. So when we think about leadership, we know one of the greatest leaders of all times is this guy. Many of you are familiar with the emotion, Gundy G. So Gundy was an inspirational leader, and this is the quote that you can see there. It's not a full quote. It's not the whole thing you said. He said, to effect change, you've got to be the change you want to see in the world. This is, for me, one of the most inspirational lines, not just of leadership, but by anything, because we are the change. We are the culture. We are the way people, the way the world works. Apologies there. So when we think about Gundy and why he was so inspirational, he was really inspired through a vision, and he shared the vision, and it wasn't his vision. It was a vision, not just for him, but for all Indians. It was for giving spirit and pride and equality to all Indians. And through this vision, he united all people to support and work towards achieving this vision. He led through example. He didn't tell people what to do. He demonstrated how people should behave, how people should act, how the way we should work, the way we should put our actions into words, our words into actions. And he regarded himself a slave of the people. He wanted to serve people to help accomplish the vision together. He practiced what he preached. He didn't just say words. He did. When he said we should think about homegrown and home values, that's how he practiced by the homespun that he created. He was seeing one of the people. He regarded himself as just an ordinary Indian, along with everybody else. No one special, no one above anybody else equal. He provided and gave hope to the people. He didn't say it was my job and you have to do it for me. No, no, no, it was for them. People were given hope through this vision. He demonstrated great leadership quality, such as persistence. He was beaten down over and over again, locked up. But he always got up. He stuck to his values. And he forgave those people. He didn't hold a grudge. He knew so many people were against him and he didn't have any disregard to them whatsoever. He was forgiving. He showed great strength of character through his morals of simplicity and discipline. He didn't hold anybody to a higher value than to himself. And he kept true to his morals and his values. He saw truth as a powerful weapon. He was present and he didn't believe in wasting time in going back over the fast or forecasting too far in the future. He was focused on the tasks at hand and getting stuff done now. And of course we know that he was all about non-violence. Peace and calm, no matter how difficult the circumstances were. Many leaders today could take a look out of that book when we think of non-violence. It's about making sure we create that environment where no one is combative. No one is getting angry. We are all staying in this calm peaceful way. He inspired faith in himself. He had belief in what he could do. He had a can-do attitude. He didn't get knocked back and felt, oh, I have to quit now. He kept persisting. He felt it was his responsibility to the people. He ingrained himself in the moment and the cause. He focused on the vision of India for the future and getting there with commitment. And through this way of being inspirational, his vision, it brought in the credibility and trust because it motivated the people. And it didn't make it, this is my cause. Come and do it. He made it their cause, your cause. And that's how he gained support of the people. So when we think about leadership, we know that studies show over and over again it's the behavior of the leader that has the greatest impact on the people that they lead, on the teams. It's not the technical competencies which is such a large factor at all. It's how the leader behaves and goes about the way that they do things. And we know that the way the leader is can be quite contagious for the team. If the leader is in a great mood, the team can be a great move. If the leader is in a terrible mood and negative, that can affect the team. It's like a contagion. It affects us all. So what kind of leader are we? Are we calm, confident, open and relaxed? That's what we can inspire in our teams. Or are we stressed and fearful and closed off and angry and frustrated and pointing fingers? That's not the kind of leader we want because that's what's going to rub off to the team. So the values of the leader is really important to walk the walk and talk the talk and inspire others to be the way, you know, by leaning by example, to have that integrity and inspiring others to creating a shared vision. So it's not about doing it for me. It's doing it for us together. So we need to create that openness, that learning and discovery, challenging self and others, building trust through action, not just words. And most importantly, when we think of leadership, it's recognizing others' work, recognizing the impact others have. This results in teams being more committed, being proud of their work, being motivated and loyal. And of course, what we want today in today's Agile teams is productivity engagement. Without these, well, we're not going to get so much done. So I'm here to talk a little bit about mindful Agile leadership. So we've talked a little bit about leader. We've looked at a great example of leadership. So Agile leadership is not just good leadership with the word Agile tacked on. It's more than that. It's a balance of three essential ingredients. All of them are equal. All of them are essential. If we miss any of them, the stool, like a three-legged stool, would fall over because it can't balance. So these three elements provide a stable base. And we look at the beneficial qualities of all of them to make us a more effective and authentic Agile leader. So we're going to look at them each one, the Agile mindset, servant leadership, and of course, mindfulness. And I want to say that mindfulness is not an optional extra. It's what really gives power to the other two. So the Agile mindset, most of us have heard this over and over again. It's not a new thing. We've heard the catch-cry of being Agile versus doing Agile. That's what the Agile mindset is. And when we say mindset, it's not some mystical thing. It's an attitude that we take. It is an approach and how we think that's what mindset is and how we think and how we approach and what our attitude is shapes the way we act. So when we think about the Agile mindset, it's that collaborative way of working. It's a true sense of team fostering a team spirit. And it's about welcoming change because change is constant, change is everywhere. So we need to be flexible and adaptable and know that change is going to happen and we should be expecting it and be prepared to it and be prepared to go with it. To let go of our old plans and old thoughts and be responsive to what happens now. And when we think about the Agile mindset and it's very core, we're thinking about maximizing value, minimizing waste, creating high trust and transparency in a team-based approach to work that's fluid and flexible, open to learning, open to feedback, learning from mistakes, being okay if we're not quite right. And of course, most importantly, it's that whole continuous learning and growth and that's a team-based and collaborative way to work with uncertainty. So the Agile mindset for a leader is key because if we haven't got that mindset but we're expecting our teams to be Agile, not just do Agile, it's all very well that we know how to run stand-ups and run sprints. That's not what Agile is. It's this attitude. If we can't demonstrate it ourselves, how can we expect the team to have this Agile mindset? Servant leadership. A lot of people get a bit miffed because the word servant is in there. Servant leadership, someone's a servant to us. But that's not real. I mean, okay, servant leadership is the concept or that feeling or that desire to serve the team as a priority and leadership is kind of taking a backseat. But when we talk about leadership and what we've just seen with Gunning G, he really put the people first and equalled himself with the others and that's what leadership's about. It's about focusing on the development of others. In fact, one of the Agile principles is all about Agile leadership and servant leadership because it talks about creating the environment and the support the team needs and then trusting the team to get the job done. So a servant leader is all about all those things we talk about, removing obstacles, enabling the team, generating the right support, creating, doing the work the team needs so they can get on with the job of just getting the job done, whether it's creating software, developing training, writing a book or in fact, building a building. It's really about they create the conditions conducive for the team to work. But to do that, we need that vision. So the Agile servant leader needs to inspire that vision and make sure everybody can rally around that vision and adopt it as their own. We need to work from a position of humility and humbleness of being empathy for all, compassionate to our team, knowing that we're all people, we're all human. We're not just robots doing work. We need to exemplate patience and that openness, that willingness to see things, not just from our own point of view. So servant leadership and leadership of all kinds is key to have self-awareness. What am I really demonstrating? How am I really being seen? How I think I'm seeing myself and how others give themselves can't be different. So we need to be self-aware and not living in this fantasy world of how we're coming across. We need to increase our listening and ask more questions to develop people above ourselves. Of course, that means doing all the great stuff that our teams need from us, our organizations need return on investment, creating organizational strategy and objections. But we need to increase engagement. Remember, interactions and individuals. So we need to focus on those individuals and help them interact to get that increased engagement. That's what we need in agile teams. We also need to enable creativity in teams. So not just focusing on time, cost and resources. We need to say, hey, how can we solve problems the most effective way possible? So it's not about you. It's about the team. Team before self. Enabling them to be awesome. So we lift the team up and give them what they need. It's not about being the best liked or rewarded or recognized. We need to direct the team as needed, but it's more about facilitating the team to be at their best. So when we think about the agile mindset, we can have an agile mindset, but not be a servant leader. We can still be commanding and controlling and telling people what to do and expecting them to do what we say. That's no good. Or we can be a servant leader. We can enable people, but then they're not agile. We don't have that flexibility and adaptability and that focus on value that agile mindset gives. They're both needed. So we need to connect those two. But then the last aspect, the last one which underpins the first two in my mind is mindfulness. So mindfulness has many aspects and not one single definition. There's many definitions. I just want to quickly go through a couple. They're from different sources. Mindfulness books on the internet, of course. So one is a scientific definition of mindfulness is a thinking or moreover a non-thinking process not hung up on ideas, concepts, memories. It's all about just observing whatever is happening as if it was the first time we've ever experienced it. So it's this concept of beginner's mind. The first time we've ever seen something, we look at everything as if it was that first time. Very difficult to do because we've been around the block a few times. So we've seen things a few times. So we go, oh, you know, that's just the agile thing now. And we just don't pay attention so much anymore. It kind of filters into the background. So mindfulness doesn't let us do that. And the best definitions I've got from a mindful leadership book by one of my favorite authors, Bunting, is we maintain an open-hearted awareness. Open-hearted awareness of our thoughts, our emotions, our bodily sensation and the environment around us in the present moment. So at its core, mindfulness is awareness. And unfortunately, so often we're not really aware of what's going on around us. In fact, science shows us nearly half the time we're not completely aware. We're driving. We're on, sorry, we're on autopilot mode. Often a lot of what's happening around us is filtered through to the background. So we're barely aware. You might be familiar with driving or being on a train or a bus. And you're not really aware of the journey. You're not seeing what's going on, the trees, the road, people, other cars. You get home, you think, I don't remember how I got here because we're about autopilot. So while we're on autopilot and our mind is wandering full of thoughts replaying the past, thinking about the future, listening to that inner voice chattering, unfortunately, while it doesn't sound like a big problem, it's not, are habitual ways of thinking. Unfortunately, most of the time when we're in this mind wandering autopilot state, we're often dealing with negativity, looking at things negatively, worrying, replaying scenarios, wondering what if could have been. And it quite often is quite an energy sapping process even though we don't know. We're so caught up in the past or the future. We're not here right now. We're not aware of what's happening and we're not here right now. We're kind of distracted. We're not attentive to what's flowing out. We're zoned out. So how can we be aware of our teams? How can we be aware of ourselves? How can we be aware of others? The vision? The agile mindset if we're in this default mind wandering mode. Unfortunately, our minds are built to be in this way because otherwise we'd be overwhelmed by information. Our biology has also been made aware to be constantly on the lookout for threats. That's how we evolved. So our mind and our biology is constantly looking for negativity, constantly looking for threat. So we're in this constant kind of semi-stress state. We can't really be there. So the only antidote is presence. Mindfulness, I think, is like a carefulness, carefulness of our mind, carefulness of our thoughts being truly present in real time. Here, now, as it really is. Not how we want it to be, not how we hope it to be, not what we expect it to be, or how we don't want it to be. It's openness to being here now without judging, good, bad, like, dislike, want, don't want. Letting go of that judgment and just saying it is. Observing as it is. Because so often those judgments can eschew of the way we think of things. So it's an awareness. Paying attention purposely, warm, heartily, non-judgmentally, experience in accepting what's here now exactly as it is. Witnessing calmly, clearly, open-mindedly, engaged in the here and now. And this gives us the freedom to manage ourselves. It's a gift of choice and breaking that habits allows us to take account to our responsiveness to circumstances. When we're under pressure and we're stressed and we've got so much on our plate, it's easy to fall back into that habit and we just act on default. We're not really aware of what's going on. We can choose our attitude in any given moment. We can choose to pause, check in and respond from a more present and open and clear point of view rather than this default mode of reacting on autopilot. And it also affects stress. Stress actually comes from within. Otherwise stress would be the same for all of us. A great example. Think about being stuck in traffic. Many of you have probably been to Bangalore or Delhi. You know what I mean by traffic. Now, some people seem to sit in traffic and zone out and be zen, right? Whereas other people are stomping the steering wheel and swearing and cursing. Now, people can choose. Are they stressed out in traffic or are they just going, well, it is what it is. I'm here, I've got to deal with it. Now, if stress was universal, everyone would be stressed. It's our own attitude to being stuck in traffic that's causing stress or not. It's our own thoughts that are perpetuating stress or not. So stress comes from within. If it was from external, then the same things would stress all of us in a different way. And we know that that's simply not true. So mindfulness is a release from that constant barrage of thoughts that are constantly going around and around our head. That inner voice did, did, did, did, did. So we can, we can let go, let go of these thoughts and adopt a better attitude and a more constructive action. We can learn to absorb, observe, absorb, observe our thoughts and observe our feelings and emotions a little bit more distracted from a distance. So it can prevent us getting wound up and caught up in them and being drawn into those spirals of inappropriate thoughts, unhelpful actions, unhelpful things that we might say. Mindfulness enables us to have this optimum mind state of ease, of stress, free of anxiety, free of anger, be more happy, more secure in ourselves and more comfortable with the world as it is. We can drop those stories, we tell it ourselves and choose wider and more wiser responses. So when we think of mindfulness in conjunction with servant leadership, now servant leaders need to be more focused on other. Mindfulness enables us to say am I focused on the other or am I focused on me and caught up in our servant leadership aspect of focusing on others and also the agile mindset. The agile mindset is one of flexibility of value of minimizing waste and team based work. Mindfulness enables us to say are we thinking about me, me, me am I thinking about all that didn't go as planned, are we sticking rigidly to how we thought our plans were or are we open to change, are we being flexible and adaptable, which is the agile mindset. Mindfulness is not an optional extra. Mindfulness and this clarity of thought and dropping that default mode enables us to say are we being servant leaders, have we got the agile mindset or not. Without deliberate attention we won't know, we simply just go on default mode. So mindfulness there's more than one way to do it most people seem to think of the two broad categories, informal and formal. The screen has gone the wrong focus there. So informal mindfulness is the ability to check in with what's going on with our thoughts going on with our mind, reconnecting with the present at any time snapping out of this autopilot lost in thought world and catching ourselves and coming back to now becoming open becoming clear becoming observant and present today now neutral and objective. We can do that anytime anywhere 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days away a year it costs us nothing it's just the ability to remember to do it so at any time we can just come back breathe just for one second clearing our mind through all that noise that's been clustering our mind come quieten it down come back recall and observe open up and refocus see things as they are we can do that anytime and it literally takes one second of course you can keep going for as long as you want the second type of mindfulness and how we do mindfulness is through meditation it's the formal way the tuxedo method I call it so when we think about mindfulness being open and present and non-judgmental and aware it's like a muscle we need to exercise it and like going to the gym when we go to the gym we can pump weights and get our muscles stronger so meditation is like that muscle exercise for our mind for our brain it enables us to practice formally that enables us to be more mindful in our day to day everyday life not just in this formal sitting on a cushion in the lotus position so it's like going to the gym and for me meditation when we go to the gym we don't go to the gym to be good in the gym we go to the gym to be great outside the gym to run faster or be stronger or look better meditation is not about being a good meditator meditation is about being good, mindful throughout our day outside of meditation it's all about using that skill and those muscles outside of the formal session so let's do it very quickly together so I'm going to invite you now to just sit comfortably rest your hands on your lap close your eyes if you're comfortable to do so just simply clear your mind let go of what we've been talking about let go of what's around you clear your mind of your thoughts just for a moment and just take nice deep breaths in and out naturally deeply focusing completely on the sensation of those breaths breathing in fully and deeply exhaling slowly naturally bringing up full attention to just those breaths letting go of thoughts directing our attention to our breath focus solely just on the act of breathing breathing in and breathing out nothing to change observing each thought that each breath completely each breath is unique just observe it focus on that thought breath and if thoughts come which they will just recognize you've had a thought you've been distracted so come back to the focus on the breath breathing in breathing out nothing more to do just natural rhythm of the breath you've distracted by a thought or a noise it's okay, it's normal gently don't follow the thought let it go bring your attention back to your breath relax into that breath hold attention to the breath take a nice deep breath in and releasing slowly breathing out bringing your attention back to the present and to our presentation meditation doesn't need to take a lot of time meditation can literally be one or two minutes which is all we had then coming back clearer more relaxed, more open that's what it's all about it's about not being a great meditator but noticing where our attention is and if our attention wanders back over and over again that's what meditation is doing those reps of weights in the gym over and over again when our thoughts wander bringing it back and they're going to wander and our mind is going to be full of thoughts and that's okay sometimes people get a little bit myth saying oh my god my mind's crazy it's like the first time we've really sat and noticed how much our thoughts are constantly going around and around so it's that ability to bring our thoughts back so let's look at mindful agile leadership and some key aspects there's a lot more to it than what we can go through in such a short session I'm just going to quickly go through six key areas but there's a lot to it so the first one focus well you've just experienced what focus is so when we think we're focused it's so difficult today because there's distractions in every element we're distracted by our phones by the internet, by emails by people, by fans by our own thoughts distractions are constantly there so mindfulness enables us to concentrate and I think it's all about the concept of attention awareness staying on track attention focus and really focusing on where is my attention where is it exactly prioritise where does my attention need to be and then our attention there and staying there that's what attention is by resisting distractions by noticing when we're distracted and noticing and bringing our attention back to where the focus needs to be whether it's meditation or that difficult spreadsheet doesn't matter we can apply ourselves and be aware of where our thoughts actually are not letting ourselves get distracted communication well there's a huge impact here for mindfulness people know when you are present and listening to them and when they're not you know it yourself when someone's giving you the ah ha ah ha and they're not really listening to you so mindfulness enables us to be really present from each other and there's no greater gift we can give one another than our presence so it enables us to listen listen properly not distracted, not thinking about what we're going to say but you listen properly it also enables us mindfulness to think about how's the other person going to view our information on what we're saying we can adapt our communication styles to be better in line with the people we're talking to so we can be more appropriate we can also listen pause, reflect and respond from a more wise and considered point of view and be more appropriate rather than perhaps shooting our mouth off without that because it can happen sometimes we start blurting things out without even knowing or realising what we've said so mindfulness gives us that opportunity to pause and respond from a more productive appropriate point of view leadership, well we talked a little bit about this beginning leadership and mindfulness go together because leadership is about being there for others, letting go of our self oriented ways and checking if we are supporting our teams or are we hindering our teams are we calm, are we clear, are we considered are we proactively taking action or are we so lost with our own ways are we letting others shine or are we trying to take the glory are we inspiring the team are we bringing out their best or are we focused on ourselves in our own credibility in our own reputations are we caring about their growth or focusing on our own we can choose care and compassion and let control of our own bias and our own opinions to be more coaching, more mentoring not command and control we can give each other give our teams time give our teams patience giving them space and autonomy to be the best that they can so us as inspiring leaders through mindfulness can choose responsibility, compassion and generosity in the faces of challenge so others can be the best that they can through our own example we have to lead by example and mindfulness enables us to be that example we want for our teams and our organisations when we talked about leaders they need to inspire the vision and so often we don't really know what's happening sorry I skipped over there I think I've just done a decision making decision making we have to make decisions all day every day and when we're in this default mode decision making is happening below the surface in our subconscious it can affect what we're seeing or how we might habitually see things the same way and not really see them openly clearly as they are in front of us this can hugely impact our decision making when we're busy we've got deadlines there's more and more this unconscious decision making happening where we don't even bring to consciousness the full facts the brain is actually trying to save us saying well you're so busy save your time by just going to default decision making mode so you don't have to worry about looking at things closely whereas in fact we need to pause stand back clearly observed things objectively see the full story see all the facts with clarity not just what we think and caught up in default mode so it provides better decisions less overconfidence less subconscious bias involved as well inspiring a vision well that's really clear we can clearly define our vision we can enable creativity in our teams by allowing them to try ideas saying I don't know how to achieve this vision I'm going to hand it over for you to be more creative and being more open and spacious we can allow ourselves new and different ways of thinking which might come up to more creative ways of expressing our ideas and our solutions as well we're more objective and we're more willing to learn from others who might come up with a better solution than what we thought so we need to think about how we're enabling lateral thinking last of all there's so many benefits including resilience the ability to cope with stress relationships between ourselves our stakeholders and our teams not to mention health benefits most importantly happiness who doesn't want to be happier we all want to be miserable I don't think so the last point I want to make is when we talk about the benefits of mindfulness don't take my word for it don't take the over 5,000 peer-reviewed research papers from psychologists and doctors about the benefits of mindfulness there's so much out there and I'm not you can just google it and find thousands don't care try it for yourself see if mindfulness has benefits to you nothing doesn't hurt mostly try it for yourself and see if you can find the benefits for yourself so a mindful agile leader is less frantic maintain balance under pressure can be more flexible in thought and in action that's what agile is all about breaking that autopilot habitual way of thinking and truly be agile support and facilitate our teams as an authentic leader become and present ourselves as the best version of ourselves in any given moment we are accountable for our attitude so we can be an agile have the agile mindset be an agile leader and be self-aware choosing wiser actions wiser responses the last thing which is a handout I want to give us I'm just going to go through it because I want to leave some time for some questions is the elements of mindful success so we start with our objective if we know our clear vision and objective it drives what we pay attention to mindfulness enables us to direct our attention and then enables us to choice how we think and how we act actions and thoughts should lead us to the right success there's a handout I'm going to be giving to all of you with this elements of mindful success and of course the slides from this presentation I'll be making aware through Confengine and I'll also make it available in the handout sections on this platform so thank you for having me I hope that you've been inspired or learnt a little bit so go forward and be mindful try it, let me know how you went thank you very much we've got some time now for some questions thank you Cathy wonderful session and thank you for making us meditate I'm sure all of us have become really calm so you made us meditate thumbs up all of you all for Cathy for making us meditate during this session and keeping us calm we do have questions and I'm going to pick out the first question for you Cathy the first question is from Carol and her question is allowing chaos within a team to solve itself never taking a stand in discussion causing this chaos would that be a right leadership technique okay so servant leadership doesn't mean accepting chaos it definitely means we've got to step in when there is chaos if there's conflict, if there's confusion if people don't know what to do we can't let them just fall on their face and fail we need to step in and take conscious, mindful action so we're not jumping in and telling people and reacting and being stressed and angry we can go in and say how can I help you? I know that there's chaos what can I do for you and how can I resolve conflict if that's what's happening how can I explain things if there's confusion, lack of understanding so we have to jump in we can't let teams just well it's their team there's servant leaderships and they'll let them fail that's not a great way to go about it but the mindfulness enables us to be aware of what's really happening in the team so we can look clearly at what is the more appropriate response completely we have another question do you think the mindful agile leader should practice shared decision making this is another question look so we talk about empowerment so some things we can empower the teams for and some things we can't can we give the team the budget? can we give the teams flexibility in standards? perhaps not so we need to understand what we can or we can't share power what we can empower them to make decisions on and what we can't and we need to say how much consultative decision making do they need our help with and how much can they do by themselves so this is a team based discussion where we understand with the team not telling the team but the team decides how much they can and can't decide for themselves because some things of course it's not up to them so I think we need to be able to understand how much we share and how much we can't share I agree we have another question the question is from Sunil and he's asking how can we as coaches help leaders to discover their biases so as a coach I quite often say that one of my jobs is to hold a mirror up for people now it's a great metaphor but it's so difficult to do you can't just go hey do you know that you're this this this this that's not the way we do it we need to think about again a mindful approach to coaching which I firmly believe in I think that mindfulness as a coach has made me a better coach because I quite often can project my own weaknesses or judge the other whether it's a leader or a developer or a tester doesn't matter so mindfulness lets me let's go with that judgment and that and I think okay what are they seeing what are they hearing what are they feeling and I question them say what did you see there what do you think this it's about asking more questions and helping them to their own conclusions and seeing it from a gentle point of view but of course sometimes it means mindful feedback as well so when we think about mindful feedback we've got to be making sure that we're not just poking fingers and poking in people's painful spots we're doing it from that right intention so mindfulness can help us think about how we can provide feedback as and when needed without it becoming subjective and pointed yes I agree we've got situations of seeing where as well so I think those are the questions that we have let me just quickly look at if there are any questions posted there oh yeah so how can you decide when to intervene and when to stay away in a conflict situation as a leader Jehan Paranja has asked that question so once again that awareness I think that when we are more aware of ourselves so mindfulness you can't make somebody else mindful so that's the first trick if we're more mindful ourselves we can become naturally more self aware and when we're more self aware we're more other aware so when there is conflict we're more likely to pick up when the conflict is constructive because we know that sometimes conflict is needed for people to challenge each other because we need people to challenge each other otherwise we have that group think mentality so some conflict is healthy but when we're aware we can start seeing when it's crossed the line and become personal become unproductive become negative and of course become self aware where people are feeling threatened are being disrespected that's where we have to step in we can't accept bad behaviour so we need to sort of maintain an awareness of ensuring that people aren't being attacked for no good reason type of thing. Thank you so much Kati for the wonderful wonderful talk. Thank you everyone, thank you Fincy for having me and everybody have a wonderful wonderful day