 Welcome everybody to today's panel on how government Ospos can deliver value for citizens at scale. We're delighted to be here at OspoCon, though not in person, at least we can bring these fabulous voices from all around the world to help discuss this fantastic topic. You know, and we all know that there has been a recent trend in terms of Ospos or open source program offices being established in public sector organizations. And what we're here today is to hear from some real live experiences from people who have been involved in the creation and the planning for such Ospos or who have been working with them. So I'm delighted to welcome our panelists here today. First of all, we'll do a very quick introduction of all our panelists. I would invite you panelists to give a little wave when I mentioned your name just so we know who's who, and we'll get started. So my name is Claire Dylan. I work with Moss Labs. We're involved and we facilitate the Ospo plus plus network which is a network for Ospos in universities and government and civic institutions, and we help them collaborate and we like to create collaborations that make it for impactful open source project so that's one of the things we do. And I'm delighted to be joined by a bastion Gary, who is the free software officer for the French public administration. And he is involved and responsible for the free software action plan, and which relates to Ospos in France so we'll be hearing from bastion later. I'd also like to introduce a Malakumar, who is who heads up in fact the tech for social good at GitHub, but who has a long history of working with nonprofits for social good in the past so she'll be giving her insights there. Welcome, Malak. And I'd love to say hello to Astor, New Melon Carlberg who's from open forum Europe, and he's a policy director there so we'll be hearing from Astor shortly. I'd also love to welcome, hey Salinas from the European Commission. He's the product officer there and is working in the Ospo there. And, and indeed I'd love to welcome Maurizio Garo gasola, excuse me Maurizio, who's the chief of strategic technical technology solutions at the United Nations Office of Information and Communication Technology, quite a mouthful, but we are delighted to have you here Maurizio, and welcome to everyone here. So, to get kick started, I think it might be useful for us to have a little bit of context about why we're seeing this trend, this increase in the number of Ospos in public sector. I want to call on Astor to give us an overview of the report that came out that was published by the European Commission earlier this month, talking about the economic impact of open source and how that relates to Ospo. So, Astor, if I can call on you to maybe just give us a very brief overview of what was included in that report. Yes, absolutely. And I'm also going to take the liberty to share just a few slides, not to break up the rhythm of this panel too much, but to give you a little bit of context because there are some numbers here from the economic analysis that I will show. I hope you can see this. All right. Okay, perfect. Well, so yeah, so like you mentioned on the 6th of September, the European Commission published a landmark landmark study on the impact of open source on the European economy. And I'm of course especially happy to mention this because our think tank open from Europe conducted this study together with Fraunhofer ISI. And it has to be said here that my colleagues will be presenting this study in detail in another panel at the open source summit. So, but I'll give you a brief overview of the economic findings, if you have any specific questions analysis methodology or whatever else, I suggest you check out that panel as well. Let me come to some of the main findings here. The first one I don't think is a surprise to most people listening in here today. Open source code and components are essentially everywhere. And I think it's however good to have this empirically back in an ecosystem of studies and reports. And this is a point that needs to be underlined in policy discussions more and more that it's not a fringe question. It is everywhere. Then secondly, we found and this should be said a very conservative figures. We worked with a very conservative methodology to come to a very strong stable defendable number. This is the third point that I wanted to raise here is that in more of a dynamic number if we saw an increase of the globally available open source code to rate if they were to raise by 10% we would see an increase in the US GDP of between 0.4 and 0.6%, which is for an economy of 500 million people, a big number in the EU open source software has a cost benefit ratio of one to 10 in terms of investments put in and value created. If you in that number also can take into account hardware and capital costs will see a ratio one to four. So good ROI on open source when it comes to investment. And this contextualized this in the European Commission's words, they stated that these findings show that there are clear signals from investors on the huge value and potential of open source policies to maximize the return in Europe of this value may be required. In the short term, the findings of the study will be used as a basis for policy options in many digital areas. And in the long term, the findings can be used for a new open source policy focus on the EU economy as a whole. So then we're now entering the space of talking about open source policy at scale. And that brings me to the question of auspice. And because we believe that auspice, or the auspo as an organizational construct, thought about broadly in society has the potential to realize this vast amount of value from open source or realize a vast amount of value from open source for citizens across Europe and the and the world. As it has, or the hospital has for companies and shareholders in the private sector. So we argue that the Ospo and subsequently and I think we'll get into this later more in detail on networks of auspice should be considered as central to capacity building. And this has to do with creating an institutional framework or infrastructure if you want on to which you can then roll out large scale open source policies. So very briefly and we'll get into a lot of these questions later on. But we recommend that the European Commission should consider five steps in the context of auspice to increase this institutional capacity. And the first part is giving the European Commission Ospo, which we'll hear Chris talk about more, an external networking component. Now they already collaborate with people and have things we want to boost this capacity and make this a very clear distinct action for for the European Commission Ospo. Then we also want to see European Commission Ospo being a task and built up in a way where it can be a reference point internally and explicitly in any digital policy that might touch on open source or open source development to be a point of knowledge and be part of the process of developing legislations and bringing in technical experts, etc. Then and here's a task that I have a hunch might already be planned, but it's an important one. We recommend that the European Commission all suppose identifies and maps the existing European all suppose in industry public sector and academia with explicit aim to exchange information and share best practices for a future European Ospo network. This is kind of a first step. And here, the kind of big investment recommendation is for the European Commission through its funding instruments. Fund pilot programs where 10 auspice are built in the public sector and 10 in academia as a first step or kind of getting this development going, it's already starting in some places, but to get this at scale and across Europe. And with that, the last bit, which will have a chance to get into more detail later on, we encourage them to establish over time a formal EU Ospo network. And this has brings all the earlier recommendations together where the easy Ospo which we receive the natural home for this to be administrated together with identified auspice in industry the public sector and academia, as well as the newly built auspice if this recommendation is followed to bring this together in a structured network for best practices and be able to collaborate at scale. I think I ran through this quick enough. Very well that was that was that was that was beautiful and short thank you after that was that was fantastic and and we definitely will touch back on this idea of the network and very shortly. Before we do, I do want to go to bastion and ask him about another report so your report or the report from the European Commission asked her very clearly outlines the economic potential of both open source and using auspice that may enable that. I think there was also a report in January of this year that was made to the French in the French Parliament by Eric but the rail and it covered a little bit more context in terms of the value of open source, beyond the economic value as well and or purely that that that GDP angle and bastion can you maybe refer to that gives a little bit of an overview of what happened in France and how that relates to us pose for France. Yeah. The the butter report was mainly about open data policies. It was about assessing these policies and renewing them and open source legally is part of open data in the sense of what the public sector builds in terms of software. That's really is the source code. So the angle the first angle was this one how can we go further into publishing the source code of the software that the front status is building. What the report says is that if we are publishing source code then we want other administrations in France to reuse it. And if we want this administration to reuse open source, then there is a cultural shift to be made towards open source and they need to learn how to buy and to acquire open source so this is this virtual circle that the report. And the hospital recommendation from this report is based on that if you put together in the same institution within the administration right people will understand the open source in its virus dimensions because we also recognize the diversity of the problems. We also have a chance to rationalize the publication and then the use of open source and in between the contribution that the public sector can make to the outside open source ecosystem. Thank you so much. And, and, hey, I'll come to you now you're sitting in the European Commission, and you actually have an Ospo so so perhaps and you have been one of the first public administrations to actually create an Ospo in Europe so maybe can you tell us a little bit about what that looks like what have been the first priorities for your Ospo in terms of in terms of how how that's come about. Thank you Claire. So, maybe first clarify why we started an Ospo it's it's really the logical outcome of an increasing importance to the organization of open source. The relationship that dates back 20 years when the data center started running its first week is based on Linux. But by now 77% of all our hosts in the data center are Linux. We use open source for the vast majority like all of them but two of the Commission websites and web based projects. Everything new that comes out through the website through the websites of the Commission is based on open source and one cool example is the CD which we use for the conference on the future of Europe conference. And so open source is such an important component for everything we do. And open source is something that we increasingly share with the wider community that it has outgrown the IT department that has become critical for almost all of the organization. And that is why when the commission renewed its its view on on how to deal with open source its open source strategy. First of all, we elevated the status of the strategy to a communication to the commission meaning it really was taken out of the IT department and given to all of the commission. And we created Ospo to take charge of the strategy, basically to promote a working culture, based on the principles of open source. That's what the inside and to remove any organizational or legal barrier towards open source so far. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. So, so I'm going to ask a question then because, you know, obviously, hey, sir, you're a little bit perhaps further down the line in terms of actually having established an Ospo bastien the recommendation suggests that, you know, France should have an Ospo multiple Ospo's. So can I ask you both. What do you think the biggest challenges that you would face in terms of setting up an Ospo in a public sector organizations, they may be the same that might happen in organization but I'm guessing that there might be some additional challenges in the political context so so maybe you can with either of you like to to perhaps have a go at answering that question. Last year feel free. I'm sure you'll say the same as me. Okay. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. There are two challenges. The first one is to recognize diversity and local needs for example. During the report there was a consultation run through this team and people expected the French government to have just one for for every software repository out there. And what we noticed the last two years is that we have more than 20 forges of source codes for public sector source code, and we have many organization accounts on GitHub on GitLab everywhere, and we don't think it's time to rationalize factorize all this into one single place. So recognizing diversity is a sense of keeping a sense for the local agencies and the ministries that they own their own politics about open source and that they have to move forward into their own direction so we are not centralizing everything as we are expected to do as French people. And the second challenge. But we still have coordinated plans so diversity is respected but still we need to move forward into three goals one is open more source code, use more free software in the administration and attract new talents open source to work within agencies. The second challenge is about sense of shyness from public administrations they don't like to talk about what they use they don't like to sometimes they don't even like to speak about what they produce, even if it's a very small and very nice team doing a great open source product. There is this culture of shyness. If you take for example the anti COVID application you don't see the name of the country because because they all use the same name because they were afraid of going public so going public is quite a challenge and we need to make progress on this. Thank you, thank you bastien. So, hey, were they the same challenges that you faced is it is it similar different got extra ones to throw on there. I cannot deny and confirm not I think at a higher level, they are the same because we're talking about change management and changing the culture. And I really appreciate what bastion said about the timidity of projects. For the commission. We have a similar, we face similar things. So, let me just give you two examples. We have, we were quite fast in removing one of the stumbling blocks in the house where developers are for some reason not able to easily look into the code and components and the tickets and help desk things from their colleagues across the teams in other DGs. And so this we fix quite fast, but that's only one part of the problem. To change the way they work to change their culture to make them look into each other's projects that will take a bit of time. And another barrier that we quite quickly were sort of able to remove we're not there yet is to make it easier to share open source software from the commission with the outside world to publish commission source code as open source. So the rules have been written, we're just trying to get the paperwork through the machine that takes a bit of time because of the pandemic, a bit more time than we had hoped. But it's an important barrier. And I'm pretty sure that we will see as who's just the tens of projects per year going open. And where we differ is that in the commission, we tend to really try to rationalize and optimize the way we do these processes. So there is a lot of talking about, should we go to this platform, should we go to that platform, should we centralize, should we let people free. Again, that's a culture change. And I think that Boston and I can both agree that the hardest part is to make this open to loosen the rules in our organization such as a government. So because that's what open source tends to do. Yeah, no, and thank you for that and I think the diversity kind of point that bastion makes is such an important one because no matter what you decide no matter what anyone decides on in any one organization they'll always be another one, there's always one, and you can't exclude them right because they could have a totally important. And that's okay so we just have to get to relax with that. And hopefully that will even help with the culture change because when people are familiar with their own environment and that can help so, so thank you both for that. And I want to touch back now because we've been talking about this idea of the individual challenges and the actual as pose themselves, but one of the things that asked are mentioned in the report summary was this idea of an network. And so I'm going to come back to you after just to maybe comment about what you mean by that in the context and maybe even commenting in the in the context of what bastion and has was talking about earlier. Like, what do you see the value what's what do you mean by the network and what's the additional value that can provide. Absolutely. And the first thing I would say here to kind of link it back to to crisis investments work is, you know, the internal components so to say if we're going to call it that of the also is extremely important for the capacity building of an organization. You know one can talk as much as they want about a network but if the hospital doesn't bring value to the organization within which it's built, then, you know, you got to get this stuff right to begin with. And that said, we are thinking we don't want to shy away from what we think is this very vast potential of finding ways of both informally informally networking these hospitals in different sectors, etc. And in many ways, what we hope to see here is what we've seen in the private sector already. The hospitals look very different in different companies, they're in different parts of the companies, they're at companies of their vastly different sizes, and they're both on the vendor side and on the user side. But what we're talking about when talking about networking these hospitals it's essentially and this is something I think any bureaucracy or any organization always looks looks for it's increasing organizational interoperability enabling collaboration. And this action costs between very diverse organizations, which, you know, is not necessarily the easiest thing. But we believe that the hospital can really help in this especially together and matched with, as they trusted intermediaries that can help bringing these notes together. So I mean, imagine to paint a little bit of a picture because it can sound very abstract talking about Osboat networks. Imagine you have, let's say, a city that has an Osboat setup. It's in search of a solution to a challenge identified by citizens that, let's say a digital solution can solve. They would then, which is also an additional benefit without having to sign let's say tricky contracts or memorandums of understanding, be able to collaborate together with a university Osboat. The open source licenses as the kind of collaborative framework. At the same time they could also engage local and for that matter global companies to participate and support in this development. And, you know, then maybe even early in this process as a result of hopefully continuous communication and a backbone kind of trusted intermediary that supports the network. The Osboat that is faced with a similar challenge can also enter in the conversation and there is this kind of station there's this point of entry when talking about open source where the Osboat being named an Osboat can really help. I mean for an individual developer or a large corporation it can be very good to know that the European Commission, for example, has the Osboat. It's a very natural point to go and ask about open source for and the same goes for a city or a national government. And so here, I also want to say that we're very clear eyed when it comes to that the kind of difficult difficulties of just spurring collaboration between very diverse sorts of organizations and stakeholders, it doesn't just happen. We do believe that from the outset, especially because we're talking about this kind of green field advantage of starting to really work with us was in the public sector and academia, for example, to have this thinking established from the start to have this part of the conversation when building them because if you look at the private sector, it took probably 15 years or so until more informal networks of collaborations actually were established here. The government we could leapfrog this in many different sectors. And I mentioned this earlier on and this is when it comes to kind of the potential. I think we have to be very realistic when it comes to, you know, we heard about the challenges of cultural change and ways of working etc. Just run before we can walk. When it comes to talking about large scale ambitious open source policies in the context of, you know, creating growth, really realizing value from open source for citizens. Let's take one step at a time. Let's look, do we have the institutional framework in place. Do we have the capacity. Do we have the infrastructure onto which then can roll out these policies, because it's very easy to roll out very ambitious policies. But if you don't have this framework in place, it's often and we, you know, we all know examples of this. They don't get traction in the real world. In the end of the day, we need to connect one, these big policies to citizens, but also individual developers, other companies, universities, it all needs to come together. So, and we think, you know, we have good models for this that we can look at in the private sector, but it's not that simple. There are special needs that we need to take into account for in the public sector as well. But the potential is there. Yeah, and I mean, when you think about the network like, you know, to your point, there may be already models in existence that we can, we can look to, but actually, you kind of need that network to exist even to as we go, we're learning. I mean, this is this is new for you, as you mentioned, it's Greenfield and many organizations, and I don't think even, you know, corporate I suppose have it all figured out yet. So there really needs to be an opportunity to to actually share those learnings as we go as well, and to address the challenges that we see cropping up and share the best practices as they come up to. So, so you can see the value of a network like that in all those instances so thank you thank you, Esther. And I'll come to you now Maurizio because from the United Nations perspective, obviously we have the UN Sustainable Development Goals. And they're they're kind of the responsibility of everyone to achieve right we have, you know, common goals set out for the world. So can you maybe comment on how you think your office can actually use open source to actually help that help the development for the sustainable development goals. First of all, thank you Claire and for the organizer this but I think it's very important I hear and I learned a lot of things and you know maybe we are the last on the on the blocks here so we really need to, you know, keep up but I really resonate from from an to the to the network approach of the hospital and the end state of having infrastructure that actually knows how to talk about open source and connect at various level. And as the UN, you know, our competitive advantage is really the network effect the ability to to expand and talk to countries to different diversity as well and inclusion as part of the process. So, I think as you said that the sustainable development goals and the DGA assembly, the General Assembly resolution says a very important thing that you know it's not only government that needs to implement these goals. It's for us, all to do with all the actors of the society need to need to concentrate on this. And you know, this is a clear understanding from everybody you talk to, you know, in, you know, if you talk to a company and University or a nation state, everybody understands that the complex solutions that are needed today cannot be done, you know, by themselves cannot be, you know, done individually they need to be interconnected the challenges are totally beyond goes beyond the border restrictions we need to make sure that we are collaborating together. And so, to achieve the scp scp scp is really important to have open innovation and open culture that spans the local boundaries of every organization so the, you know, if the data is that is the new oil for us definitely open source software is its refinery so we really need to make sure that we, you know, adopt and as the studies that we were presented today of the sea says that, you know, $1 invested in open source produces $4 in in the economy that is good enough incentive to bring this instance to the decision makers and this is what we really trying to concentrate in our work. With that with various entities in the second in the secretariat including the tech and boy office the digital public goods Alliance inspiration that is coming from the European Commission we're really trying to work on establishing also for for the United Nations and for the secretary. So, as you know, we, you know, all big organization has been working on open source for four years, you know, I think we have 1000 to 138 Linux servers at this point running the work of the UN so we've been using, you know, open source solutions we've been with our official website is on Drupal so we have 500 more websites on Drupal so there's a lot of expertise there's a lot of, you know, understanding of the value of this but this is really scattered throughout the organization. And we've been talking to, to many of these colleagues that we now call them open source heroes because these are really the heroes in the organization are trying to put forward these instance so making sure that open source is used to this to the fullest benefit. But indeed they what they're telling us they need a central coordination and a function and institutionalized function for them to reach out find information talk the open source, you know, policies strategies implementations that need to be, you know, followed for for the you know, really engage in the digital public good arena because we have as the EC has a lot of software that were developed, and maybe internally that could be open source that could be leveraged for for the, for the wider communities open source communities. And of course, you know, we have challenges and like everybody else I think I subscribed to the ones that I heard already, but of course, you know, also in large organization the bureaucracy takes time, and, and this is not necessarily bad because we really need to think it through and really the capacity where you need to talk the walk the talk, as we say, and we really need to find the senior decision makers on on the ball with on this and making the right decision. And at the end of the day, you know, change management is really what what is the major problem that we are facing at this point, we're trying to attack that through a bottom up approach with concrete solution that we put out, we start learning from your engagement with the community and a top down approach from the policy maker to meet in the center and really change the culture of the organization so that's really our end goal and our challenge at the same time. And, and Rizio, a lot of those challenges seem similar to the ones that Bastian and he says have described in terms of actually changing the culture change management internally within the UN. And can you maybe speak to as well any practical steps then you'd be thinking about in the context of actually interacting with or engaging with other city or or country level as both like how have you got plans in that area and in terms of actually helping that adoption or to do those collaborations is that something that is also on your playbook. Indeed, it's this approach and the network approach that we were discussing before is really, you know, the end goal that we want to achieve of course we are recognized that, you know, before to get before, you know running we need to start walking and this is where we are at this point, and we have kind of engineer a three tier approach to try to attack the and achieve the end goal. And first of all, we really need to build, you know, capacity internally making sure that we know what we're talking about. We know that we have we have functions and procedures and policies and strategies that really govern this work and this is where we are, you know, piggybacking on on our colleagues and in DC and other organization to make sure that we are not making the same mistakes that they did. So we are leapfrogging, you know, those mistakes. The second tier is really try to engage with all the the biggest family of the of the UN all the funds and programs and we have a model here was we know is doing work with WHO and we actually, we are talking very closely to see if they can also help us on that particular tier. And the most important part that and probably the most difficult part is really to to engage at member state level to to be able to leverage the UN competitive advantage that we're talking about before to connect, you know, different countries and different cities of course and different administrations to talk the same, you know, to discuss the same open source agenda, making sure that we have maybe a strategy and policy at the UN level. We have resolutions that could talk about that we actually had a resolution few weeks ago from episode about requesting the secretary general to come up with the with the report on how the UN can assist the open source community and engaging with member states on the open source agenda so indeed next year the secretary will be busy in looking at this report and providing guidance of that so indeed, you know, it's a three tier approach that works in parallel and we are all trying to put our priorities where where we see that the most impact at this at this point. But again, one of the key issues here is really to build awareness among the decision makers and being able to demonstrate with the hard evidence that there is value in the open source. Thank you. Yeah, thanks, Muratio. And, and I'll come to you now, Mala. And as as Muratio mentioned, you've had a lot of experience working with organizations like the WHO, and can can you maybe comment as well, apart from the sustainable development goals, you know, for when you think about the tech for social good, what part to play I mean, does open source obviously has a huge part to play but what part to play do I suppose also can play in the context of of tech for social good good at that global level. Yeah, I mean I have to echo everything that my fellow panelists have said. I'm a designer by training so before I join get have a couple years ago I was the person who worked for the UN and basically design the tools that they would implement in whichever way. And I have a lot of lived experience with just the challenge and frustration of being a design team of one with one engineer across 30 countries, and a lot of people promising me that we're going to do this project but then just not getting the resources. So I think one of the challenges that we see throughout the UN system and with USAID and the UN Foundation and all of these organizations that have rightly called out that open source is a really critical component of tech for social good you know any part of advancing equity and human development is really just the technical on the tactical side, what tools do you use which developers do you hire, you know how do you set your budgets up. And I think those are some of the gaps that we've been able to fill through our work with the World Health Organization this past year and a half. So we've been doing a lot of work with them to just understand where their current teams are with open source and of course as you would expect for an organization that large and especially with everything happening around there are teams that are just thinking about it and teams that are really just have one or two barriers that need to be knocked down. And so I think an OSPO has a role to play in basically all of those areas. From the work that we've done so far you know I think a lot of the topics that my panelists covered especially around change management are really important with OSPOS but then we're also identifying some areas that I think are quite unique to international organizations like the UN. For example, you know if you have a license for instance like which jurisdiction is that actually forced under if you're a UN organization. And then how do you work for a five year strategy when you've got a budget that's supposed to roll up to that five year strategy when you have a very clear process to buy $100 license but not to allocate $100 or $10,000 or whatever amount to documentation and open source. So we're identifying all these little challenges and I think the tough part now really is to prioritize that and say, obviously, everybody needs help with everything so how do we prioritize and figure out what we address first. I think that's ultimately a question that WGO is going to have to make but we're helping them kind of build up that evidence and try to think through, you know how to prioritize those points. And the second point that's just really interesting, especially coming from the UN system and then we're now working at a company GitHub, that's very critical to open source but also based in San Francisco and through and through an American company, you know we have developers and pretty much every country in the world but a critical mass in North America, you know thinking about tech companies, they can really only hire and like 30 to 40 countries around the world so we're limited to North America we're limited to Europe, but in the you know my colleagues are from everywhere grew up everywhere, based everywhere, you know you can talk to people about a specific tribe in a specific country and the differences therein right so when you talk about international perspectives then it gets really, really, really, you know, micro it gets really localized. And so I think a UN Ospo has a really critical role to play in just being able to hire developers in Africa, simple as it sounds you know we need to make open source more equitable that's a huge challenge that we've had you know the history of open sources, it's tough you know it was exclusionary for a while, and I think now people are starting to understand that history and how it plays out. But when you're talking about movements such as the digital public goods and you know the DPGA the digital public goods alliance with UNICEF Lucy Harris's work they're doing amazing work but they know that it's a challenge to make it more equitable. And so one of the challenges that we have at GitHub and then working with WHO and other UN agencies that are really thinking about an Ospo is how can you bring in a more equitable approach and as a designer that really speaks to me right inclusionary design to make sure that digital public goods which majority are servicing people in low and middle income countries are actually built by people in low and middle income countries. You know so there's a lot of I think economic and social aspects that an Ospo at the UN could eventually think about and the network of Ospos as Mauricio was talking about. I think those challenges are probably a couple years out. But at least at the beginning, we can start with the more tactical approaches of who do you hire them why do you hire them how do you pay them what are they doing, how do they work what tools are they using, etc. So I think once we can get to kind of the that more basic level then we can start to go for more of those higher level topics that ultimately I think we're all trying to work towards. Now thank you for that and and when we're thinking about that kind of global impact or even just being the inclusionary and I know I know we were saying that in many respects, you know some of the, the large corporations are actually you know from a smaller group of countries but when we think about the corporations as well who also many of whom do have a global footprint if not, like, as local as we would like it in the future. Can can either of you perhaps Mauricio or Malo or in fact anyone on the panel, like comment about how a network of Ospos from from a public sector and administrations and organizations like the UN, like is there a role to play with and also a corporate Ospos in that respect in terms of potentially having, and I don't know in the context of corporate social responsibility like is there an opportunity for that also to happen. Yeah, I definitely think there is you know a lot of Ospos in the corporate sector do focus on tooling for instance so if you're using a piece of open source then how do you like automatically detect that and make sure you're staying compliant with the license. And that kind of concern is something that we hear quite often so there's some countries that WTO works in that are very pro open source and they want to work with for example the French government to strengthen that. And other cases they categorically know we're not going to do this at least not yet. And so some of those concerns do come down to the actual technology and for the fact that again you might have one developer for every 30 program officers at the UN. And I think that that capacity from the corporations to really say alright so I understand this is the challenge but is there actually a technical solution to at least start to address some of those issues. So yeah I definitely think there's there's work to be done there. And also I just think the network effect you know one great thing about open source open open doesn't mean equal and I do want to stress that point you know it doesn't mean equal but it doesn't mean that in theory people do have the opportunity to engage. There are a lot of rules that you know corporate auspice can play and that's exactly what we're doing so you know GitHub is owned by Microsoft and our Microsoft Osmo and our GitHub Osmo are you know working side by side with WTO and these coming months to really help stand up some of these like critical pieces of infrastructure that they would need. Thank you yeah that's fantastic. So I suppose then one of the question and I'll open this up to all the panelists again. You know there there are many groups out there who have been working on the areas of shared learnings around us pose folks like the two group have lots of great resources about how to get started with your Osmo and provide those a lot of those resources. There are particular needs for public sector I mean Malatouch done some of them but it can maybe any of any the rest you want to comment on the idea of whether there are like what what what do you need in terms of kind of assets or shared resources or learning or tooling and I'll make it really broad. If you all could help each other what ask would you put on the table. Can I start with this one. Yeah go right ahead. It's a very short list I mean we need, at least from a political point of view we need a stability. So my my first wish would be for the French Oscots were existing the next 10 years, and then we are not, and then open source has a steady strategy that can develop, develop itself and and and be nurtured by the network of relations with other agencies. One word about this networking. That's why this action plan exists is that because we started to have partnerships with this other ministry this other agency and this other one and then we need to gather all this into one single institution for one action plan. And that that's also the case for corporate Ospo or corporate just companies. We need to have a place where we can articulate the way we work together on reaching the goals that we have for the administration. It's not for the company to set goals, it's the administration the public sector sets the goal the government sets the goal but how can we work together to achieve them. And this tech time. And so my first wish would be to have time to develop and then of course more diverse people to share them their experience in their knowledge of open source within their technical expertise within their coming from companies, explaining how their Ospo work, worked in the company and so on and so on. And hopefully, and hopefully also from the the emerging French Ospo so they think get over the shyness to so we will all do the mutual sharing that would be fantastic. So does anyone else have so so sharing experiences, a magic wand to create more time and instability for Bastia and that that will come with time and anyone else got any ideas about what what the network could come together to actually create to actually help at public sector Ospo's I think one thing is just kind of level setting expectations, I think there's the sense with open source that if I build it they will come. That's not necessarily true but it who cares you know if you have five people who look at your tool and they're five people from other governments and that's probably what you need right it doesn't matter, necessarily about the quantity or the volume of people contributing. And a lot of what we see with open source in the social sector really is around that transparency so you can imagine. If you're working with somebody who's got a limited budget, it's, it's a big deal somebody duplicates 20 hours of work or $100,000 in funding. So just knowing that a tool already exists and not reinventing the wheel itself is already important, even if they don't necessarily contribute to that. So I think a network of Ospo's can kind of level set expectations and what open source is what the real advantages are in the social and public sectors, and then also help with that culture change at the top level, you know I think there is. It's top because when you work in tech for social good you understand pretty quickly that the tech is a very small portion of the solution, and that's okay. It's increasingly important but the policies the systemic biases that just the ability for people to thrive in economies and ask people who they are, and with respect to human rights is really where that core of that work lies. So this tag is increasingly important. And so, UN and other organizations need to understand that by proxy they are becoming tech service providers that is part of their job. And so we need to adapt things that are, you know, well known kind of standard bears things that are working in the private sector where possible, even if you have to change some things here and there. And Ospo's are one of them, you know they're every single major corporation that builds technology either has an Ospo or is probably thinking about one now so there's a reason for that. And just kind of wraps their head around that and other social sectors organizations wraps their head around that and gets by on top level, then the funding and then the personnel, you know the staff will come with that. Now that's great and I think that you know even having being able to take those learnings from the non tech sector and bring them closer to the tech community at large and will have, I mean that surely would have a benefit for the entire industry as well as as well as the tech sector aspect. After you had your hand up there do you want to pop in and make a comment and then he's on my review too. Super quick is one thing. I'm not going to speak to exactly what the public sector needs but I think also one thing that is important to keep in mind now it's a bit Eurocentric because that's what we work with but the European Commission for example has been engaged in encouraging the sharing and reuse of software products between governments for many years. There's an established program under the isa squared initiative. And so it's also important to not kind of connected to not reinventing the wheel there is a lot of experience. There's a lot of things that have been done. There are a lot of good models to build on and share more globally and bring those up. And again, I think the Osprey conversation is to a large extent just about taking that next step, critically look at how the processes work and decreasing those transaction costs and then finding ways of sharing the best practices globally from how these things are done. And for us to be, you know, have the humility to listen to how other countries and other networks and collaborations have worked to also bring that into how we do things in Europe. Excellent point, Esther. Thank you very much. Hey, you were also waving there earlier. Yeah, what I wanted to add is, I agree with Bastia that time is actually quite essential. But there is a natural thing that happens here because that organization such as the Commission and many others, if I look at the number of requests for information to talk and present, we have received from member state public services. Many of these public services realize how open source is strategic, and it's a very natural fit to public services. And in fact, together with the European Parliament, the Commission Ospo is, and I can't really talk too much about it because we're still fleshing out all the details, but we're going to start this big project to build an information network. So the goal there is to allow public services to to share reuse to pool resources, knowledge, ideas, practices, because it's a contribution to society. It's cost savings to the citizens and it makes things so much easier in an organization such as the European Union. And it's the only way for the European Union to capitalize on this network effect and open source is such a practical tool. So this is going to happen for sure. We look forward to hearing more about that. And thank you. Hey, and Maurizio, you also had a comment make. Yes, just just a very quick one I'm informing from a very high, you know, perspective, the open source language for me resonate very well with the charter of the event and the charter of what, or what we should be doing here and and what we should be doing is to bring in people together, talking to each other and if my one of my ask is that the open source language will be the same in all countries in the world so that we could then talk to each other and understand each other much better so that that's my wish. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. Well, we have come to the end of our time, which is always too short when we get to talk to these wonderful people. But I would love to thank our fabulous panelists here today. Thank you, Aster. Thank you, Hayes. Thank you, Maurizio. Thank you, Mala. Thank you, Bastian. It's been a fantastic discussion. And I want to leave the audience with, I suppose, maybe two things. One is if you are perhaps in a public sector, also we're thinking about that or want to network with more of these wonderful people. If you check out the Ospo plus plus network, we hold monthly monthly calls community calls and and we'd love to hear from you I think that the next one is September 30, which I think maybe tomorrow when this is played. And but check it out on Ospo plus plus.com. I will also say that, you know, I would put a call out really for everyone who may not be in a public sector organization but actually maybe in a corporate Ospo to have a think about how you and your organization can potentially add to this network effect that we've discussed and the potential there because you know there really is an opportunity for us all to come together now to to look at the global problems to look at the local problems. But but to actually deliver real value to citizens beyond, beyond the idea of just creating technology for an industry or private sector. And this is what this opportunity presents for all of us so I call on all of you to, to hopefully have a think about how you can work together in the future. And with that, I'd like to say thank you to everyone, and I'm hoping you're all having a fantastic time in Ospo con and I wish I was there. Bye everyone. Thank you.