 Give me a good point, Tom, I'm waiting. Give me a good point that backs up that free will, love, meaning, and life, rationality can come from the non-rational. He was explaining emergent properties, which I know believers want to pretend that everything happens from an administrator down, but actually emergent patterns rise from the bottom up. Interesting, now Tom, what is your point? Cliff, you said rationality cannot come from non-rationality, but we can demonstrably prove that rationality can come from non-rationality, and to say it cannot is a composition of division velocity just like saying, walls cannot come from non-walls. You cannot have rationality coming out of non-rationality. Yes, you can. Well, then show it to me. How do you get rationality from the non-rational? Just explain that there are emergent properties, that patterns of emergence that come from micro-components, which do not possess those attributes as the individual component, but only attain them as a collective.